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Amanpour

Ukraine Cease-Fire in Doubt Amid Fighting; Imagine a World

Aired February 17, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight on the program: what's in a name? It is called a cease-fire but on the ground in Eastern

Ukraine the fighting continues. I'll get the latest for you and speak to Ukraine's ambassador to the European Union.

Plus another front in the war against ISIS: Egypt asking for U.N.- backed military intervention in Libya. We'll get reaction from Libya's foreign minister.

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HOLMES: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Michael Holmes, in for Christiane again today.

Ukraine's cease-fire on the brink of collapse if it ever took hold, not quite three days since a hard-fought peace treaty came into effect, gun

battles and street fights erupting in the east of the war-torn country.

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HOLMES (voice-over): These were the scenes today near the strategic town of Debaltseve, a key transport hub under the control of government

forces ostensibly. They've been under fierce attack from separatist rebels looking to get their hands on the crucial railway station there. One rebel

leader actually said the separatists have now taken over 80 percent of the town and captured dozens of prisoners.

Ukraine's military said five of its service men are dead; all of this on the day that both sides were supposed to be withdrawing heavy weaponry

from the front line to create an all-important buffer zone.

The OSCE is charged with monitoring this cease-fire; its spokesman on the ground in Ukraine is Michael Bociurkiw. He joins us now live from

Kiev.

Michael, always good to see you. Your observers can't get to Debaltseve but what other infringements are your monitors seeing?

I've seen reports of multiple cases of shelling in multiple places.

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, OSCE SPOKESPERSON: Hi, Michael, good to be with you. Yes, there were quite a few cease-fire breaches today, yesterday. I

can reference you to yesterday not far from Debaltseve. Our monitors were there on the ground and they observed for a two-hour very intensive mix of

Grad missiles and multiple launch rocket systems being used.

Also very worrisome today, Michael, was what our monitors heard in Donetsk, which as you know went quite shortly after the cease-fire took

into effect. And they're shelling as well.

The range of infrastructure, if you will, range from small arms fire to those multiple launch rocket systems. The other thing, just quickly,

Michael, is that our observers were reporting today -- and, by the way, we have almost 350 on the ground there in the zone -- is movement of military

equipment. Not able to say whether these were actual pullback of heavy weaponry, but there was significant movement of heavy weaponry today that

was observed by the special monitors --

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HOLMES: One problem when it comes to Debaltseve -- and this is a key place because it's where Ukraine gets a lot of its coal through it, it

really is a decisive strategic area, one problem is the rebels say Debaltseve is theirs. And so the cease-fire doesn't apply to them.

What -- do you obviously have a take on that statement?

BOCIURKIW: Our chief monitor, Ambassador Apakan, is very firm on this point, is that Debaltseve is part of the cease-fire. Now our deputy

chief monitor and quite a large came from our headquarters was out in Lohvynove, which is just north of Debaltseve today, meeting with the

various sides and trying to broker access for the mission to go to Debaltseve. We haven't been there for quite some time. We haven't been

there since the cease-fire took hold.

And of course, for the mission is very, very important to go there, observe what's happening on the ground and also to view for ourselves and

report to the world what appears to be a very dire humanitarian situation.

HOLMES: I've got to ask you, too, you know, your organization does a sterling job and they are very much on the front lines of this conflict,

observing what's going on. But what happens to the information you gather?

Ultimately why is it so important?

BOCIURKIW: Thank you for asking. Plenty of information comes out. We do daily reports; we do spot reports. We do even thematic reports. For

example, we did a big one recently on the situation of displaced people. And these are very, very important, Michael, because the mission also,

among the many functions, is kind of an early warning system. So for example, many months ago, we were among the first to report that many of

those facilities that are housing the more than 1 million that have been displaced were prepared for winter. And that many of the organizations

that are looking after these displaced folks aren't well resourced.

But I can tell you that our daily report's very widely consumed by our 57 member states, including Ukraine, Russia, Canada, U.S. and by

journalists, diplomats, very widely.

HOLMES: And very quickly, if I can, you and I have talked often about the situation civilian -- and I know it's a major concern for you.

How dire does it remain in the east?

BOCIURKIW: Well, Michael, the numbers really speak for themselves; well over 5,000 killed. We're reaching almost 13,000, according to the

U.N., of wounded, well over 1 million displaced and the total number affected, about 5 million.

And just quickly, Michael, I mean, we, our Ambassador Apakan and our secretary general met with the displaced people (INAUDIBLE) recently. They

said two things to us, is one, we want peace and, secondly, we want to go home badly because we've been out for so long. Our kids can't go to

school, we can't get proper food and medicine.

So it's very, very important and crucial for peace to take hold as soon as possible.

HOLMES: Michael Bociurkiw there with the OSCE, on duty in Kiev, as he has been for many, many months, thanks very much, Michael.

Well, as Ukraine's army and the rebels continue to clash over that key town, Debaltseve, the internationally brokered cease-fire hangs by a

thread.

Joining us now from Brussels to discuss this, the head of the mission to -- of Ukraine's mission to the E.U., Kostiantyn Yelisieiev.

I want to ask you first of all, how do you view the state of this cease-fire?

Is it a cease-fire in your mind?

Mr. Yelisieiev, do you hear me?

We seem to be having some trouble there with the head of mission of Ukraine to the European Union.

We'll try to correct that for you. We'll take a break in the meantime and we will be right back.

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HOLMES: Welcome back to the program.

Just before the break, we were telling you about Ukraine's army and the rebels clashing over that town of Debaltseve, the internationally

brokered cease-fire hanging by a thread.

We're going to go now to Brussels to discuss this with the head of the mission of Ukraine to the European Union, Kostiantyn Yelisieiev.

Sir, thanks very much for your time.

How do you view the state of this cease-fire?

Is it, in your mind, a cease-fire from both sides?

KOSTIANTYN YELISIEIEV, UKRAINIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE E.U.: Well, after 15th of February, the beginning of cease-fire, there were a lot of hopes

for positive developments on the situation on the ground. But unfortunately, since 15th of February, the Russian-backed terrorists have

violated cease-fire for about 170 times. Mainly we're talking about the Donetsk region and the city, Debaltseve, where the -- currently there are,

you know, hostilities are going on.

HOLMES: When it comes to Debaltseve, the rebels say that the cease- fire doesn't apply to that town because it's part of their territory. Obviously you would beg to differ.

YELISIEIEV: We completely disagree with such a position because Minsk agreements reached on the 12th of February envisaged the full and

unconditional implementation of the cease-fire along the whole contact line in the Donbas, namely in Lugansk and Donetsk regions. And we call upon the

Russian Federation to influence Russian-backed terrorists and to ensure them, to press on them to implement fully and unconditionally -- I do

repeat -- the Minsk agreement.

By the way, right a couple of minutes ago, the president of Ukraine had urgent phone consultations with German Chancellor Merkel, with a view

to discuss the situation on the ground.

HOLMES: You mention there you want the Russians to exert influence. And that brings me to an important point.

How much control do you believe that Vladimir Putin has over these rebels?

Do you believe that he is controlling things or just an interested observer?

YELISIEIEV: Absolutely. They have full control over the Russian- backed terrorists. They have the Russian weaponry on the ground, heavy weaponry. They have Russian special troops on the ground. So they could

control -- they're controlling overall the situation on the ground. That's why once again we do call upon the Russian leadership, Kremlin leadership,

to abide by Minsk arrangements without any conditions.

HOLMES: Some believe that he could be aiming for what's being called a frozen conflict, a sort of keeping an uncertain status quo, if you like,

and that even the notion of autonomous regions in the East with Russian sympathies works for him, because he would maintain leverage over Kiev's

ability to reform.

Do you think that's what he wants, uncertain status quo?

YELISIEIEV: You see, most probably he has a lot of wishes, but after the Minsk agreements reached on the 12th of February, we've stopped talking

about any kind of autonomous status for the Donbas or for any kind of federalization (ph) of Ukraine. We are talking about decentralization

(ph). We are talking about giving more power to the local authorities in the area of finance discipline, in the area of budgetary discipline, in the

area of humanitarian policy.

That's why, once again, Ukraine was, is and will be independent and comprehensive country without any securitization (ph) status.

HOLMES: What do you believe is his broader aim in a regional sense?

Do you think, as some have suggested, he wants to sort of, through influence, have, I don't know, a sort of mini-Soviet Union by supplying

separatists in the neighborhood, not just in Eastern Ukraine? There are places like Moldova and Georgia and places like that, preventing any growth

with relations with the West in those places.

Do you think that that is possible?

YELISIEIEV: Yes, indeed. What we are -- what is going on on the ground, in the territory of Ukraine, is a clash between two civilizational

choices (ph), between European values, all fundamental freedoms, and the kleptocracy and the imperialism values followed by Kremlin authorities. So

unfortunately, Ukraine currently is at the forefront for the peaceful, stable, prosperous and democratic Europe. That's why it is obligation of

the whole international community, and particularly of the European Union, to try to resist and to try to help the Ukraine in order to fight against

the Russian aggression.

HOLMES: I want to thank you very much for joining us, the head of mission of Ukraine to the E.U., Kostiantyn Yelisieiev. Thanks so much.

And now we turn to Libya. Egypt's president calling for U.N. Security Council resolution on military intervention in that country. This plea

coming after Cairo launched airstrikes against ISIS militants inside the country, a response, of course, to the video showing the execution of 21

Egyptian Coptic Christians.

ISIS has already made gains in Libya as we have reported here, taking advantage of the chaos that has existed there since the overthrow of

Moammar Gadhafi, rival militias battling it out for control and even rival governments competing.

The internationally recognized government fled from Tripoli to Tobruk last year after attacks on the capital. Right now, the Libyan foreign

minister is in New York for meetings at the U.N. Mohammed al-Dayri joins me now from there.

Your country, sir, by many estimates, is on the verge of being a failed state if it's not already. Egypt asking for U.N. authorization for

international military intervention.

What do you think, Mr. Dayri?

MOHAMMED AL-DAYRI, LIBYAN FOREIGN MINISTER: At first, we have been shocked by the seize of behaving of our compatriots in Egypt. These

killings have been horrendous and they're against our values as Muslims and as Libyans.

Those who were killed have been Egyptian Christians that are dear to all Libyans because of the outwards, because of their involvement in Libya.

We have been nurturing this close relationship to Egypt since the early '50s, when Abdel Nasser sent to us doctors, engineers and we were sad to

see the behaving of these Egyptians after the killing of a doctor with his wife and his daughter a month ago.

This is the first reaction that I would like to have at this stage.

Secondly, indeed, the situation has been very serious in Libya. And it warrants a further international attention. The focus of the

international community on fighting ISIS in Iraq and Syria has eclipsed the Libya issue. Indeed, terrorism has been rife for the last two years. But

it has posed many challenges for Libyans, at first since 2012 --

(CROSSTALK)

HOLMES: Are you liaising with the Egyptians militarily?

Is there cooperation on the ground?

DAYRI: Indeed. To fight terrorism, we have benefited from the support of the Egyptian army in terms of training our troops and supplying

us with the necessary logistical help on Egyptian territories.

However, we have asked the Arab League on the 15th of January to get the U.N. lift its restrictions over supplying the Libyan army with weapons

and military equipment.

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HOLMES: Of course there are deep divisions, though, within Libya as evidenced by the fact there are these two parallel governments, both

claiming to be able to run the country. There surely needs to be political compromise and solution before any outside interference, don't you think?

It was outside interference that really led to the chaos that exists now.

DAYRI: We have sent from Tobruk and from Al Bayda our representative to the dialogue in Geneva. We have given a hand to our compatriots (ph) in

the donor (ph) operation. We think that we are able to rebuild Libya together based on a state of institutions, grounded in the rule of law and

human rights.

However, this is now a moment of truth, whether our compatriots in the donor (ph) operation would like to join forces with us and fight terrorism

or not. After the beheading of the Egyptians, we have witnessed two reactions in Tripoli. At first, they said that what happened in Sirte

amounted to a holy wood fill (ph). And then they retracted saying that they would send troops to Sirte to liberate it from terrorists and

extremist elements.

I think we can rebuild Libya together and we can fight terrorism together. But this kind of ambivalent attitudes that have prevailed in

Tripoli are worrisome and we are committed to holding the peace talks and to have a political settlement for the Libya crisis indeed.

But we have got not to wait because time is of essence. And we would like to have some international consensus that has prevailed in Syria and

Iraq as far as ISIS is concerned, that this same consensus prevails in Libya, not least because of the -- this recent operation, these recent

terrorist attacks have represented.

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HOLMES: How much responsibility do you believe the West has when it comes to Libya today, especially in light of -- there's no shortage of

people who say that the West helped get rid of Gadhafi and then basically walked away without helping to rebuild institutions and instruments of

government and that then led the tribes to going back to their age-old enmities to begin with.

Do you believe the West has, because of that, a responsibility to help now?

DAYRI: There has been an acknowledgement from many interlocutors that I am talking to in the Western nations that there has been a vacuum and

Libya has not been attended to to the satisfaction of the Western nations themselves and to Libyans because we would have liked that the

international community be more committed to rebuilding Libya.

Now we have witnessed that attention and involvement with the Libya issue through the Geneva dialogue that has been spearheaded by the U.N.

special representative Bernardino Leon. But we would hope at this stage that Libya is supported in terms of fighting terrorism, too.

We should not see more bloodshed to wait and support the Libyan army. I think this would be representing a hazardous and serious and dangerous

enterprise.

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HOLMES: What do you fear will happen if ISIS' influence continues to grow in your country, the killers of the Egyptians openly said that Europe

was in their sights. There are thousands of refugees heading to Europe by boat, many of them Libyans and among them could be ISIS members.

What do you think will happen if ISIS continues to expand in Libya?

DAYRI: Indeed, ISIS has posed challenges to Chad, to Niger, to Algeria, Tunisia, but to Egypt, too. And in addition to what I have

described earlier as great challenges to Libyans themselves, we have been victims of terrorist actions ignited by ISIS vis-a-vis the Libyan people

and the Libyan interests in Libya itself.

So I'm afraid that if there is no international consensus in the same manner that we have witnessed that consensus prevailing in -- as far as

Syria and Iraq is -- are concerned, I'm afraid that the situation -- the security situation would be worsening in Libya, posing further challenges

to the neighbors that I have described, but to Europe, too, as you have hinted at.

HOLMES: Mohammed al-Dayri, thank you so much, the Libyan foreign minister who was in New York for what are going to be some pretty crucial

meetings with the U.N., our thanks to you, sir.

DAYRI: Thank you. Thank you, Michael.

HOLMES: Well, as Libya looks to the future, we look to the stars for a story that is truly out of this world, at least it is for the volunteers

of the Mars 1 project, which aims to establish a brave new world on the Red Planet by sending 24 people to colonize Mars. Two hundred thousand people

applied at first; it is now down to the final 100 who want to help humanity by leaving it all behind forever.

When we come back, imagine seeing the source of life in our solar system, whether on Earth or Mars, up close. We will look up -- after this.

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HOLMES: Welcome back.

Finally, tonight, imagine a world where something you see every day is revealed to you for the first time. After five years of taking photographs

24 hours a day, NASA's solar observatory satellite has released these images of the sun. It may seem like footage, but it's actually photographs

woven together to document the life of our closest star, monitoring its incredible magnetic fields and atmosphere known as the corona, which is up

to 1,000 times hotter than the sun's own surface.

Through its lens it has seen the biggest sunspots in decades, currents of solar flares, huge bursts of light, energy and x-rays and captured the

planet Venus on its transit across the sun's face, something that won't be seen again for 100 years.

Even though it's taken over 100 million photographs of the sun, NASA's solar satellite will continue its mission of scientific understanding well

into the future as it aims to decipher the system of a star so essential to our own existence.

On that fiery note, that is our program tonight. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com. Follow me @HolmesCNN on

Twitter. Thanks for watching, everyone; goodbye for now from Atlanta.

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