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Amanpour
Undercover in North Korea; Interview with Nigeria's President-Elect. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired April 01, 2015 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[14:01:18] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Tonight: an exclusive. The first interview with Nigeria's new president, Muhammadu Buhari hails a
victory for democracy and a vote for change.
Will he defeat Boko Haram? I'll ask him.
Also ahead, rare insight into the most secretive nation on Earth. Suki Kim ongoing undercover as a teacher in North Korea.
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SUKI KIM, TEACHER AND AUTHOR: None of my students in the science and technology university computer majors knew of the existence of the
Internet.
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
Nigeria's new president-elect says that his country is witnessing the dawn of a new democratic government. Speaking in a televised address to the
nation, 72-year-old Muhammadu Buhari, a former military ruler, vowed not to rule but to govern and said he wants Nigerians to leave their troubled past
behind.
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MUHAMMADU BUHARI, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF NIGERIA: You shall be able to go to be knowing that you are safe and that your constitutional rights remain in
safe hands.
You shall be able to voice your opinion without fear of reprisal or victimization. You are all my people and I shall treat every one of you as
my own.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Now it's fourth time lucky for Buhari's presidential bid. And never before has an opposition candidate beaten the incumbent president in
Nigeria. In defeat, Goodluck Jonathan pronounced this significant for his nation and for Africa.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Goodluck Jonathan, former president of Nigeria: I've kept my word. I've also (INAUDIBLE) for Nigerian (INAUDIBLE) in the democratic process. Now
there's more (INAUDIBLE) I would like to see and do.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): But as Africa's most populous nation and its largest economy, the country still faces many difficult challenges,
corruption, poverty and of course the Islamic extremism of Boko Haram.
Now in a moment, we hope to get the new president-elect.
But first, Christian Purefoy was on the streets of Lagos as the results came in and as the story unfolded.
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[14:05:03] CHRISTIAN PUREFOY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Nigerians watched as the results from the presidential election were announced. And
then something historic happened.
Opposition leader Muhammadu Buhari beat incumbent president Goodluck Jonathan. And as a transfer of power never witnessed in the history of
Nigeria.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) everywhere. We want a good government. We want (INAUDIBLE) alone. Want to be happy with the unity and the country is
very, very high. The spirit is high so everything could change. Somebody has been there for six years, no change; want to try another person.
PUREFOY (voice-over): Nigeria is Africa's largest democracy and after decades of military rules and aborted attempts at democracy, there were
fears that neither side would accept defeat and the vote would turn violent.
And then Jonathan phoned Buhari to congratulate him on his victory and democracy takes hold in Nigeria -- Christian Purefoy, CNN, Lagos, Nigeria.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: So exciting and challenging times indeed ahead in Nigeria. And as I say, we are still trying to reach Abuja, the capital, to speak to
President-Elect Buhari. we hope to do so after a short break.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
And we are still trying to get the technological wizards aligned so that we can go to Abuja and talk to President-Elect Buhari. We will get that as
soon as we possibly can.
In the meantime, we move on to another truly fascinating story, one of the last truly mysterious places on Earth, closed off to the real world, this
Hermit Kingdom is considered the Holy Grail of journalism assignments. Seven years ago, I received rare access inside North Korea.
I wanted to meet the people to see the city and to find out more about this secretive police state.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[14:10:04] AMANPOUR (voice-over): But another minder, Mr. Jang, tells us what we can and what we can't film.
JANG: (from captions) We cannot take pictures behind the statue.
AMANPOUR: Behind.
JANG: Behind.
AMANPOUR: Just in front.
JANG: Just in front. We cannot take pictures.
AMANPOUR: And why is that?
JANG: Why is that?
AMANPOUR: Yes.
JANG: Well, I'm not sure but a principle is principle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So that was a glimpse into a life dominated by fear and held under suspicion, a world which my next guest lived in for six months,
posing as a Christian missionary and teaching some of the sons of North Korea's military elite.
Suki Kim came in this week to talk about the book she wrote about her undercover experience.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Suki Kim, welcome to the program.
KIM: Hi, hello.
AMANPOUR: You have an extraordinary story. Your book describes the period of time you spent in North Korea, teaching English to the sons of the
elite.
What did you take away from that experience?
KIM: I think two things, that they were incredibly lovely. They were 19. I lived with them for six months and really grew to love them and -- but
they were just -- they lived in fear, perpetual fear.
AMANPOUR: How did that manifest itself in the classroom? We've got this unbelievable picture of you teaching in North Korea. You very carefully, I
understand, cut the students out in case there was any backlash.
KIM: Well, the minute it became so real to me -- we lived in this place where none of us could leave and so I really almost felt motherly towards
them.
AMANPOUR: You had six months to really delve into, day and night, the psychology of one of the least understood places in the world.
KIM: For example, I incorporated essay writing in order to teach them -- also wanted to learn, all kind of essays to write and reveal their world.
In fact it turned out it was impossible to teach essay writing because essays are about your own opinion, arguing it and with proof.
And that wasn't really possible because it was about critical thinking.
AMANPOUR: Because they had no critical thinking?
KIM: It's actually just not allowed.
AMANPOUR: Where were you when Kim Jung-il died?
KIM: You know, it was my last day by coincidence, but I had just -- it took a lot of effort, but I showed "Harry Potter" to my class. They just
marveled at this, you know, Western film that they're not allowed -- for some of them, I don't believe all of them -- it was the first time ever
they watched a Western movie.
And by then, right that afternoon, Kim Jung-il's death was announced. And they were heartbroken, heartbroken in a very different way from what I
later saw on Western television.
What I saw was more private sorrow, but real sorrow, like their parent died. The world they've ever known was the Great Leader's world and he
died.
AMANPOUR: So what does it really mean for the region?
KIM: I think that it's a really, really airtight system. The brutal dictatorship, the most heavily militarized nation in the world, but the
control that they exercise over their citizens is an unthinkable level, movements are controlled, information's completely censored. None of my
students in the science and technology university computer majors knew the existence of the Internet.
AMANPOUR: They didn't know about the Internet?
So they weren't on the Internet and they don't know much about the outside world.
KIM: You know, we think they can just rise above all of this and rise up against the regime. I don't really see how that's possible when you censor
everything to that --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Not just censored, but were you even able to teach freely?
You must have been surveiled, bugged.
KIM: Absolutely watched 24/7 by minders and also the North Korean staff, who -- we had to get every lesson plan approved, but all the classes were
reported and recorded, reported on. Every conversation was overheard and reported.
AMANPOUR: Because there were bugs.
KIM: There were bugs and also somebody was reporting. If it's me and three students having a meal, that's also -- they're watching each other.
And that's also reported.
AMANPOUR: And you went there to write a book, let's face it, not to teach necessarily. You ended up teaching.
How did you protect your notes and what you were learning?
KIM: I wrote in -- first thing in the morning and also in evening and -- because I was a teacher, I could have my laptop with me. And then I erased
everything every time I signed off from my computer and kept the USB on my body at all times.
AMANPOUR: What about these kids?
Do they have any time to think?
Do they have any free time?
Do they have any recreation time?
[14:15:03] KIM: They play basketball. I played basketball with them. But that's a good sport, you know? And they -- just the rest of the time,
they just mapped out from the time they wake up, group exercises, group duties about the Great Leader. It's just not a single minute alone.
AMANPOUR: Did you get the sense that any of these kids, 19-year olds, wished for something different, wanted something different for their lives?
KIM: I did see inklings of that. But I think all -- anytime you see even the tiniest inkling of that -- you know, I assigned letter writing, for
example. And some of the -- those feelings in humor, you know, they're not real letters, started coming through. But really much later --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Like what?
KIM: -- like, "I'm fed up." And "everything's the same." "I'm scared."
AMANPOUR: But how on Earth did you get in?
I mean, what group -- how did you get into North Korea to do this, what you said -- I want to teach your kids English?
KIM: That opportunity came when these fundamental evangelical Christians built a school in cooperation with the North Korean regime, a school that
cost $35 million and a lot more to fund and operate.
So I joined that group and in order to write a book --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: That's pretty amazing because most people think that the regime change is coming from fundamentalist South Korean Christians.
How did they even let you in?
What was the deal?
KIM: This group of evangelical Christians actually cooperated with the North Korea regime. And their deal is they'll go in there; they'll fund
everything. North Korea doesn't pay a penny, none of the teachers get paid. But churches will fund all of that. But in -- they don't -- in
exchange, they will not proselytize but they will only provide education and provide funds for it.
AMANPOUR: Did you ever find you started drinking the Kool-Aid?
Did you ever find that, you know, six months in that total immersion, in that very bizarre culture, affected you?
Did you start believing the propaganda?
KIM: I actually became more and more horrified, you know, that's my honest feeling of being there, it was so difficult and depressing and scary. I
really felt it just -- it's an impossible place to live.
What I didn't count on was how humanity will survive in a way, that I would just fall in love with my kids. And there were moments I would forget that
I was in North Korea.
AMANPOUR: Did you ever feel scared that they'd be on to you, find your USBs and kick you out or worse?
KIM: All the time. I think if somebody were to ask me one word that describes what it's like to be there, it's fear because if someone is
watching you at all times, you have to watch everything you say. I wasn't allowed to talk about the outside world ever. Not only would it be
dangerous for me, but it would be dangerous for whoever I'm talking to. I would get my students in trouble because consequences there, the
punishments are unthinkable.
And I think that fear was just always there. Always, even when I was alone, I wasn't alone. And that was unbearable.
AMANPOUR: Suki Kim, thank you very much indeed for talking to us.
KIM: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[14:20:11] AMANPOUR: So a chilling glance there into the horror and the humanity that's hidden in that hermit nation.
And after a break, we turn back to Nigeria, finding its voice like it never has before. Imagine a world where a passion for democracy sets the
Internet ablaze. A day after electing their new president, Nigerians let loose on social media. And we will be right back.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. And we have just made technological contact with Abuja, where the president-elect, Muhammadu
Buhari, is waiting to give his first interview since he won, campaigning on a slogan of change.
Mr. President-Elect, welcome to the program.
How surprised were you by the scale of your win?
This is the first time an opposition candidate has beaten an incumbent in Nigeria.
BUHARI: Well, I'm not surprised because of how we came into the maja (ph). The main opposition parties in Nigeria decided to come together to face the
ruling party. (INAUDIBLE) we had -- we have initial spread (ph) and we have exteriors political parties and (INAUDIBLE) across the length and
breadth of the country. So it's no surprise.
AMANPOUR: Mr. President-Elect, Goodluck Jonathan, the outgoing president, conceded. He also said this showed that democracy is here to stay in
Nigeria.
And you yourself have said that you want reconciliation. You said let me state clearly that President Jonathan has nothing to fear from me. He is a
great Nigerian and still our president. That's what you have said earlier today.
Do you worry about reconciling the nation that has been so bitterly divided?
BUHARI: Well, I am not because the actual division (INAUDIBLE) about I think in terms of social instability (INAUDIBLE) is (INAUDIBLE) northeast
and in the desert (ph) area, which I think there have been with the country long enough to really know how this started and what state they are now.
And therefore, we are confident that we will regularly give attention to security in the country and I believe we'll effectively deal with them in a
few months, when we get into office.
AMANPOUR: So Mr. Buhari, how will you do it? Boko Haram has been a plague on your nation for years now. I mean, the famous girls, the girls
of Chibok, who are still not returned, how are you going to be able to do what the previous government didn't do?
BUHARI: Well, I think firstly we have to (INAUDIBLE) cooperation of the neighboring countries, Cameroon, Chad and Niger, also effort was made by
this administration. But it wasn't good enough and it was too late, too little. We expected the federal government at least four years ago to have
set down these countries I mentioned to make sure they don't allow the terrorists free movements across borders, (INAUDIBLE) and movement of
weapons. This is only then about two months ago. And we have (INAUDIBLE) by the way the Chadians and the Nigerians and the Cameroonians are
virtually fighting the Boko Haram more than Nigeria is doing until recently.
So really we have seen enough and we have enough reinforcement agencies to face the Boko Haram squarely.
AMANPOUR: Because you said, we shall spare no effort until we defeat terrorism and I assure that Boko Haram will soon know the strength of our
collective will.
And as you said, it has taken militaries from other nations to help you so far.
Are the Nigerian military or will they be up to this challenge that the whole world is looking at, Mr. President-Elect?
BUHARI: I believe they will be. And I believe (INAUDIBLE) the Nigerian soldiers out of all ethical expectations --
(AUDIO GAP)
BUHARI: -- and training and leadership. And then the national assembly attempted to conduct hearing by finding out how much the national assembly
approved in terms of military allocation for weapons and training in the last 3-4 years. and they audited (INAUDIBLE) the service chiefs and the
chief of defense. But (INAUDIBLE) was (INAUDIBLE) by the administration.
So the performance of the military was and is still being affected by corruption in the system.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Buhari, you are in fact General Buhari. You were a military ruler. You came to power after a coup in 1980s and as you know -- and I
read all this to you the last time we talked -- you know, you had banned political meetings and free speech. You had detained thousands of people.
There were secret tribunals, executing people for crimes that were not capital offenses.
This all went on under your rule in the '80s.
Have you changed?
Are you now a real democrat?
BUHARI: The only thing, as I said, is that I did that what you allege to have been done by me and the military administration. As a citizen, I am a
converted democrat. And I attempted to get to office three times and three times I ended up in the highest court in the country, the supreme court.
And the allegation that people who were executed, who were -- for offenses that are not their sentence, I think you are wrong.
When we came --
(AUDIO GAP)
BUHARI: -- the administration, we decided as a government to prescribe a death sentence on drug traffickers. So they would know we made them know
before people were successfully prosecuted and executed.
AMANPOUR: And what about corruption?
You mentioned corruption earlier. That is such a huge problem for Nigeria. You're such a rich country and yet so much gets siphoned off into people's
pockets.
What will you do differently to make sure that that is dramatically reduced?
[14:25:05] BUHARI: Well, (INAUDIBLE) very difficult from my experience. And it is a record that in every ministry, in every (INAUDIBLE) in Nigeria
there are documents about (INAUDIBLE) and financial (INAUDIBLE). But those (INAUDIBLE) because leadership at the various stages who have been held
hostage because of their corrupt practices and if we -- and God willing, we shall -- make sure that corruption is eradicated in Nigeria.
AMANPOUR: And finally, Mr. President-Elect, as I said, you're a very, very rich country, the biggest economy in Africa and yet the price of oil is
plunging. How do you tackle these big economic challenges you have, particularly the inequality that you yourself have campaigned on trying to
bridge?
BUHARI: Well, I think the (INAUDIBLE) important accountability at every step of leadership is one of the ways. The notes are there. The problem
is that the notes have ingrown for so long that a country of corruption has been blocked. And that has to be arrested immediately. People must be
held accountable at various levels (INAUDIBLE) and property. And I assure you that if we will successfully plug the holes on corruption, there will
be resources that can be utilized to improve infrastructure and I can work hard to investigate agriculture and mining and provide jobs to everybody
unemployed. The full detailed studies are made and resources allocated for further training and infrastructure development as a country.
AMANPOUR: President-Elect Muhammadu Buhari, thank you very much for joining us for your first interview since your victory yesterday.
Congratulations and of course the Nigerian election commission has called this a free, fair and clean election and it has also been praised by
governments around the world.
A new day for Nigeria.
And that is it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter.
Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.
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