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Amanpour

Where Are Nigeria's Missing Girls?; Bringing More Women into the Boardroom; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired April 17, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): (INAUDIBLE) try to get them to release the (INAUDIBLE).

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SHEHU SANI, NIGERIAN GOVERNOR: But I believe that with a new government in place after May 29, (INAUDIBLE) perhaps there will be a fresh

beginning in terms of trying to get the girls out.

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AMANPOUR: (INAUDIBLE).

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LADY BARBARA JUDGE, CHAIRMAN, INSTITUTE OF DIRECTORS: . if we make companies put women on boards even for a short period of time, think of all

those women who will be demonstrably qualified.

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AMANPOUR: (INAUDIBLE) everyone, and welcome to the special weekend edition of our program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

One year ago this week, the world united around one message to Nigeria, "Bring back our girls."

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MALALA YOUSAFZAI, EDUCATION ACTIVIST: When I heard about girls in Nigeria being abducted, I felt very sad and I thought that my sisters are

in prison now.

MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: This unconscionable act was committed by a terrorist group determined to keep these girls from

getting an education, grown men attempting to snuff out the aspirations of young girls.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm absolutely sickened by it. And the thought of them out there right now terrified and being abused and sold.

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AMANPOUR: But despite all our raised voices, the Western surveillance flights sent to locate them and the many promises made to bring them home,

there is still no sign of the more than 200 missing Nigerian schoolgirls who were kidnapped by Boko Haram.

That militant group says they were converted to Islam and married off while Nigeria's President-Elect Muhammadu Buhari says, much as he wishes

to, he cannot promise that they'll be rescued.

But he however did promise their desperate parents that he will try to defeat Boko Haram. And when I spoke to him right after his election win

just two weeks ago, I asked him what his government could do differently.

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MUHAMMADU BUHARI, PRESIDENT OF NIGERIA: Firstly we have to register the cooperation of the neighboring countries, Cameroon, Chad and Niger,

although some effort was made by this administration. But it wasn't good enough and it was too late, too little.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Now as he says, too late, too little for the families of the Chibok girls and for the countless others who've been abducted since.

Nigerians (INAUDIBLE). And one of those newly elected (INAUDIBLE) Shehu Sani, (INAUDIBLE).

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Shehu Sani, welcome to the program.

Let me ask you first, you were negotiating with Boko Haram and even last summer you said you expect these girls to be released fairly soon. It

didn't happen.

What went wrong?

SANI: Well, what we tried to do the last time is simply to open a window of communication by reaching out to the insurgents and exploring the

possibility of getting the girls freed through dialogue.

If we can remember the last time when the girls were abducted, the leader of the group, Shekau, came out and said they were prepared to

release the girls on the ground that they are members will be swapped in a deal.

And I -- what I did was simply to reach out to some few persons and then see how that could be made a reality, that is reaching out to the

insurgents and then reaching out to the government also and see how we can get to a trust.

But it wasn't possible because the insurgents actually gave us the names of those they wanted them to release. And the government said

initially that they were prepared for a swap deal. And later the government turned down the offer on the -- at the last minute. And that was what led

to the abrupt end of that attempt.

AMANPOUR: So if the government refused a prisoner swap and the government also refused any military intervention at the time, what on

Earth is there to talk about and how on Earth did you think you might get these girls back?

And will this new government do anything different than the old government did?

SANI: I believe that with a new government in place after May 29, if General Muhammadu (INAUDIBLE), perhaps there will be a fresh beginning in

terms of trying to get the girls out.

And the only way possible for now, which I will suggest, is for the government, for the new government to use the insurgents that have been

(INAUDIBLE) who were members of the shura council of the group, and to see how they could be used to reach out to the leadership and then get these

girls out.

But apart from that, we only have the options of raiding the camp. And to raid the camp, you have to know where the camp is. And you also

have to know that there are consequences attached to such an option.

AMANPOUR: Now of course there are some 2,000 of these girls and others who've been abducted, according to Amnesty International. We talk

about the 200 who were abducted a year ago from Chibok.

But do you think that the Buhari government is more committed than the Goodluck government was to actually doing something serious in the northern

area there?

SANI: Well, there were abductions before the Chibok and there were abductions after Chibok. The reality is our government, the government of

Jonathan, have not learned anything from what happened in the past. They kept on making mistakes and up until the last minute.

I believe that the Buhari government, which I will be part of after the election as a senator, will do something different because in the

speeches which he has made since this election, he has made it clear that addressing the issue of this insurgence is a major agenda in his

government. And I believe he will do something.

But the issue is that he wasn't specific on the Chibok girls because there are consequences attached to certain deadlines and also making

specific decisions because you raise expectations which may not be met at the end of the day.

So the emphasis from his speeches was clear that he will use the might of the space (ph) to end the insurgence.

AMANPOUR: Can I ask you a broader question about the north because -- and there's a new book out and here's a quote about that northern area,

back in the 19th century -- I know that's a long time ago, but it was truly remarkable -- an example of state building almost free of rebellions or

schisms, famines or epidemics. And economically successful as well.

Now contrast that with today's poverty and the violence, is there a way to get even the north to be part of Nigeria, to feel part of the

country, to feel that it's got a stake in the country and neutralize Boko Haram like that?

SANI: Well, what we need to clearly understand is that Boko Haram as an insurgent group or as an ideology, doesn't represent the bulk (ph) and

the perception or the religious inclinations of people of Northern Nigeria. In north -- in the northern part of the country, you have the Sunni, you

have the Shiite, you have the (INAUDIBLE) and several sects. So this Boko Haram is simply a subsect of other sects. So it doesn't represent the

interests of people.

Now in the north, the poverty, the underdevelopment in the part of the region is a part of the history of exploitation and neglect by successive

governments and we got our independence from the British in 1960. And what is happening in the north today is accumulative of what was done over the

years.

And the violence, the underdevelopment that is going on in northern part of Nigeria is a sum of what the governments of the past that have

wasted the resources of the country, that have been unable to address the basic issues of development, that have also been unable to apply the

resources of the country for the development of the whole country, is what we are seeing on the ground today.

And it is still possible that you have a new north, not only a new Nigeria a north, because we are -- the (INAUDIBLE) part of the country.

And we have people that are willing and able to contribute towards seeing that issues of development I will address.

And with the new government in place after the elections of 28th of March, there were hope in the region and in the whole country that we have

now a new leader who will confront those socioeconomic and political issues that have retarded the development of the region.

AMANPOUR: Shehu Sani, senator-elect with President Buhari's party, a lot of challenges ahead for you and your country. And the world will be

watching. Thank you so much for joining me from Abuja.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And when we come back, the missing women in the world's board rooms. We speak to the first female chair of the U.K. Institute of

Directors. That's next.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

President Hillary Clinton would certainly be a first but she's not the only one making waves. With less than a month until the U.K. elections,

this (INAUDIBLE) during the recent TV debate with one of the nation's pithiest commentators opining that, quote, "The moment you saw them, you

realized that we'd never want to go back to a huddle of men in bad suits, carving up the nation like a pork pie in a saloon bar."

And Britain's business secretary says there must be at least 25 percent of women sitting on corporate boards by the end of this year.

My next guest knows all too well what it's like to be a woman around a table of suits.

Lady Barbara Judge is the first female chairman of the U.K.'s influential Institute of Directors. I sat down with her recently to

discuss kicking the ball in the right direction, as she puts it.

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AMANPOUR: Lady Barbara Judge, welcome to the program. Good to see you.

How extraordinary is it for you to be in the lobby of the Institute of Directors?

JUDGE: It's a fabulous experience. I am totally thrilled.

When I was younger, in about the late `80s, I came to London to do -- had a meeting. And the meeting was in the Institute of Directors. And I

remember walking into the room, the lobby of that beautiful building and thinking, this is the most amazing place I've ever been. I expect it's a

gentleman's club.

And I learned that it was a club for directors. And I thought, as soon as I become a director, I'm going to join.

So today, to be the chairman is a great privilege.

AMANPOUR: But it is a gentleman's club. I mean, let's face it, there are only something like 5,000 women in 34,000 members.

JUDGE: But you know what, my aim is to change that. My aim is to make it truly a club for all directors, have more women directors and for

women to feel at home.

AMANPOUR: How will you do that?

There is such an ingrained culture. And let's face it, many people have tried to kickstart women into precisely what you're talking about.

How will you effect this change?

JUDGE: Well, I don't think it'll be me. But I hope to have a part. I think it really starts very young. You have to teach women, society has

to teach women, when they're in school, in grade school, that they can make it to the top. They have to have role models. They have to have sponsors

and they have to have mentors. And there's a difference between sponsors and mentors. Mentors talk to you and sponsors talk about you.

The other thing is we've got to get teachers with the program. Today, if you get a smart girl, smart girl who's good at math and science, they

send her off to be a doctor. Now that's better than being a nurse, which when I was young, was (INAUDIBLE). But they should send her off to be an

engineer because we have a lot of women doctors. What we need is a lot of women engineers. But we've got to show the teachers that that's a good

career.

Well, let's then take that down to its basics and strip away things that we don't really like to talk about and that is affirmative action or

quotas. In fact, you have said you've got to kick the ball in order for it to go in the right direction.

JUDGE: I totally believe that. In theory, I'm not in favor of quotas. But in fact, I like what happens. If you wait forever for people

to do what the right thing is, a few will. But not enough. But if you make them do it, they have to do it.

Now I don't think the quotas have to last forever. You could have sunset legislation. You could put them in for a period of time. The main

reason that they say they don't have women on boards is there aren't enough qualified ones. I keep hearing that. There aren't enough qualified women.

Well, if we make companies put women on boards even for a short period of time, think of all those women who will be demonstrably qualified. And

nobody will be able to say we don't have them anymore.

AMANPOUR: And with the magic number we keep hearing is 30 percent, why is 30 percent a magic number, a tipping point number?

JUDGE: Well, I think I have a lot of experience as you know on boards. And usually, I know it was just me. There was just me; nobody

else. My mission in life in those days was to get the second woman on the board. And almost every board I sat on I managed it. But the theory is

one is an oddity; two is OK. But when it's three, it's not an oddity anymore. Then you're not a woman; then you're just people. And once

you're just people, the dynamic changes.

AMANPOUR: You were the youngest woman and the youngest commissioner of the SEC, the Securities and Exchange Commission in the United States.

How odd was that?

And how did it change your life?

JUDGE: It changed my life totally. I would not be sitting here talking to you if I hadn't been at the SEC, because I would just be partner

in a law firm, desperate to get out of it, probably, at this point.

How unusual it was, very. And but you know, at the time, I didn't realize it. I just thought I was a person and I went on doing things that

were very different from commissioners. I took a different path. I really believe that in those days that companies should be and people should be

buying stock of foreign countries' companies. So the Americas should be buying stock of the British and the British should be buying stock of the

Japanese and the -- and I had this idea that what -- I wrote an article on it, which is called, "Thoughts while Shaving." Some day in America, men

would turn on the radio and they would listen to what happened in the Tokyo stock exchange. Remember this is the '80s. Then what was happening in the

London stock exchange. And then they'd go to work and look at their stocks.

And I got hate mail, "Dear Commissioner."

What is all this talk about foreign securities? Why are you worrying about that? You're -- we have enough securities here. America has enough

securities. We don't need foreign securities. Put people in jail -- that's what you're meant to do.

And I thought, I'm not interested in putting people in jail. I'm interested in opening up the world. And I was so young that I thought I

could do it. And you know what? To some degree, we did it.

AMANPOUR: Let's face it, you could be very successful in business. You can be a woman at the top of very many pyramids. But people say that

unless women are elected and are in politics from the grassroots up to the top, you know, a lot of legislation won't happen.

JUDGE: Well, I'm not a politician. So I don't really get into that. But I do think targets are important in general. I think you have to raise

the issue.

For so long we just sort of hoped it would happen; we'd put one person here and one person there. We think they did real -- I thought all you

have to do is work hard and you'd go up the ladder.

But it doesn't happen. People need role models. Women need to think they can do it. And if you don't see somebody in the government or you

don't see somebody who's a CEO or you don't see somebody that's a powerful person, when you're young you think I can't bother.

AMANPOUR: You wanted to be an actress and your mother, who was a role model for you, said no.

JUDGE: My mother was the smartest person I have ever met in my entire life. And she was teaching women to work in the '50s. She taught women to

work not because they were alone, not because they were poor but because they had a brain and they should use it and that they should have their own

money, because money was independence.

So when I came home and said I want to be an actress, my mother said we are not having any starving actresses in this family, Barbara.

If you want to act, you can act in front of the jury. Go be a lawyer.

AMANPOUR: And that's what you did.

JUDGE: When I listened to my mother, I got it right.

AMANPOUR: So how important is it for women not just to have a supportive mother but a supportive father, a supportive husband, supportive

son?

JUDGE: I don't think you can do it without support. I think no matter how smart, motivated, hardworking you are, if people are pulling

against you, you can't help it. I always say -- and I really believe it. I was lucky, because my father was very supportive because my mother --

because it was early days for women to work all the time.

So you need to have support.

AMANPOUR: How were you brought up?

JUDGE: Well, if it hadn't been for my mother, it would have been different. You know, in fact, I was brought up -- the milieu I was brought

up -- well, you know, "Mad Men"? You know "Mad Men"? The milieu that I was brought up was to become that blonde woman in "Mad Men," you know the

one that goes to a good college, gets married to a nice guy, lives in Connecticut, has two children and slowly goes mad.

And that could have been me if my mother hadn't told me there was another way.

AMANPOUR: Beautiful note to end on, Lady Barbara Judge, thank you very much indeed.

JUDGE: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And women are smashing those glass ceilings all around the world. Iran announced this week that it's appointing its first female

ambassador since the 1979 Islamic revolution. Marzieh Afkham will head up a mission in East Asia and she's the first female ambassador since

Mehrangiz Dolatshahi in 1976 was ambassador to Denmark. That was under the shah.

After a break, we see what happens to women who want gender equality in China. Imagine a world (INAUDIBLE) favor of the (INAUDIBLE) feminist

activist, free at last -- or are they? Find out after this.

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AMANPOUR: (INAUDIBLE). But this week a ray of hope (INAUDIBLE).

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, PRESIDENT'S WIFE: There is one message that echoes forth from this conference, let it be that human rights are women's rights

and women's rights are human rights once and for all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: (INAUDIBLE) amanpour.com and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. (INAUDIBLE).

END