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Tragedy in the Mediterranean; MSF to Launch Migrant Rescue Mission; U.S. Beefs Up Military Presence Near Yemen; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired April 21, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:00:25] GIUSEPPE POMILLA, DOCTOR AIDING SURVIVORS (through translator): (INAUDIBLE), his eyes wide open. He couldn't close his eyes, he couldn't

talk. He just grabbed our arms and we got him on board. He still didn't talk. And when we (INAUDIBLE), he started to cry.

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HALA GORANI, CNN GUEST HOST (voice-over): But what of the moral responsibility to prevent more tragedies? I'll speak to a Vatican official

and the head of Doctors without Borders.

Plus American warships near Yemen's waters. But to what end? I ask a top military analyst.

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GORANI: (INAUDIBLE) everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Hala Gorani, in tonight for Christiane.

They are calling it the worst migrant tragedy on the Mediterranean in living memory, hundreds killed in a single wreck. Just one boat among

many, full of refugees and migrants desperately fleeing war and poverty and many thousands more waiting to follow in their steps.

An Italian prosecutor today charged the captain and a crew member in this weekend's disaster with multiple manslaughter, reckless shipwreck and

abetting clandestine immigration. The sea route is nothing new, of course. But the death toll is. So far this year at least 1,727 people have died at

sea. In the same period last year, that number was just 56.

A doctor who aided survivors of that horrific wreck described an unimaginable scene to our Ben Wedeman.

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POMILLA (through translator): We got to the area without knowing exactly what we could expect. The sea was dark and cold. I didn't think we would

find someone still alive. My colleague, Enrico, and I got onto dinghies to find survivors. What we saw is terrible to say. It was a carpet of

bodies.

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GORANI: European ministers accused of turning a blind eye have promised action after an emergency meeting. When the action will come is unclear;

how much more funds will be devoted to any search and rescue operations also unclear.

Pope Francis even is speaking up. He's appealed to the international community to scale up its response to the growing crisis in the

Mediterranean. Listen.

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POPE FRANCIS (through translator): They are men and women like us. Our brothers, seeking a better life, starving, persecuted, wounded, exploited,

victims of war.

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GORANI: Joining me now live from Rome to discuss this is Archbishop Silvano Tomasi, the Vatican's permanent observer to the United Nations in

Geneva.

Archbishop, thank you for being with us. As early as last September, you called this part of the Mediterranean a silent cemetery, called for an end

to the globalization of indifference.

Do you think the world is finally waking up to what's going on there?

ARCHBISHOP SILVANO TOMASI, VATICAN'S PERMANENT OBSERVER TO THE U.N.: There is a momentary attention because of the immensity of the tragedy that we

have seen reported in the last few days. But I'm afraid that perhaps after the emotion of the moment we will go back to business as usual. There is

an effort on the part of the European Union to organize a new approach to the problem of incoming immigrants and asylum seekers.

We will have to see if more money and above all a stronger political will will be shown that will bring out -- that will bring about results.

GORANI: And the European Union argues it's not just search and rescue; we have to target these sea routes at the source, the criminal gangs that take

the money of desperate migrants.

Do you agree that it should be a multilayered response to the problem?

TOMASI: I think the priority number one should be saving lives, and therefore the search and rescue efforts should be intensified. Then

obviously we have to go at the roots of the problem

[14:05:00] and that implies that immigration and the flow of people into Europe should not be seen as an isolated factor. The context of the

political, the commercial, the different types of relationship that Europe has with the countries of origin.

We should not support political systems that oppress their own people and the force them to fit to risk their lives by finding a better future in

Europe.

GORANI: Do you think that Europe should take in more of these migrants, especially countries, Britain is an example, that have taken only a few

dozen Syrians, for instance?

Do you think Europe should be doing more in terms of welcoming refugees and migrants from difficult parts of the globe, such as Syria, other parts of

Africa, for instance?

TOMASI: Well, obviously Europe cannot take in all the victims of violence and conflict in the world. But I think resettlement in Europe can be

increased and above all it should be spreading in a more even way. There are certain countries that are generous and take in a certain -- a generous

amount, a larger number of refugees and asylum seekers while there are others that are totally indifferent.

So maybe in the planning that the European authorities are doing, this sense of fair distribution of refugees should be taken into account.

GORANI: Archbishop, I know you spent years, many years in Africa, Ethiopia, Eritrea. You're familiar with that part of the world and so many

of these migrants come from that particular part of Africa.

What drives someone to take a boat, rickety boat, risk his or her own life, sometimes with babies and children? What drives them to do something so

desperate?

TOMASI: We are seeing in the last several weeks that the real push factor that forces thousands of people to look for a better life in Europe is war,

like the case of Syria, or famine or the violation of the human rights, especially in certain areas like, for example, the case of Eritrea, where

the young people would like to have a freer environment where -- within which to grow and to build their own family and their own future.

So the roots, problems, the root causes of this enormous exoduses of people have to be addressed in a more systemic way. That until there is the

political will in the sense of solidarity with these countries to resolve these problems, we will see the flow of people continuing and unfortunately

I think we can predict that more tragedies will come about.

GORANI: Well, it would certainly predicted before this one by many.

Archbishop Silvano Tomasi, the Vatican's permanent observer to the United Nations, joining us from Rome, thank you very much for being with us today.

One organization that is going to great lengths to help migrants is Doctors without Borders, having just announced that it will launch its first search

and rescue and medical operation in the Mediterranean starting in May.

Dr. Joanne Liu is the international president of Doctors without Borders. She joins me now from New York.

So MSF, Doctors without Borders, is launching its own search and rescue operation on a 40-meter rescue ship.

Can you tell us about that?

DR. JOANNE LIU, MEDECINS SANS FRONTIERES: Yes. So MSF is going to have its first rescue ship in partnership with the Margaret Offshore Aid Station

as of the beginning of May. So this is, I will say, a quick fix to a very, very big problem of people risking their life, fleeing some bad

circumstances like war and other very difficult situation.

GORANI: And how many people do you expect to be able to treat on a ship like this? I mean, logistically speaking,

[14:10:00] how much can you handle?

LIU: It's (INAUDIBLE) few hundred passengers. So of course we won't be able to welcome everybody. But I think that this is a way for us to

continue our -- with a response to people that I call on the go or fleeing a war zones or difficult circumstances.

GORANI: And the plan is to have this ship sort of navigating in the waters, not docked somewhere, correct? So there's an active kind of

component to this and going out and trying to see if you run into anyone who needs help.

Is that correct?

LIU: Yes, that's correct. That's the idea, the idea that we'll be navigating and we're going to be responding to I guess sign of distress and

then there we will go and rescue those people and bring them as well medical aid that necessary because many of the people are going into those

deadly journey are having different medical difficulties, like they can be dehydrated. They can be burned. They have suffered some violence. So

we're going to attend to those kind of medical needs.

GORANI: Well, MSF always does great work. I see you in the field and absolutely admirable work that these doctors do.

Can I ask you, as an organization, do you blame the European Union for not having maintained the level of funding of the previous Italian program

called Mare Nostrum?

Do you think this was predictable, what's going on here, and the E.U. really dropped the ball?

LIU: Well, we don't want to go into a blaming and pointing. But what we want the E.U. to do today is to take its political responsibility towards,

I will say, a fraction of people who are fleeing for their life. And then the idea right now is just to really bring the spotlight, just to say you

need to take your responsibility. It's not by having, I will say, closing your borders and building walls and you will solve the problem. You will

only divert the flow of those desperate people who are trying to flee for their life, because the reality is if we just add what I call repressive

option, this will not solve the problem. It will just divert it.

GORANI: Dr. Liu, what the E.U. -- what some E.U. member states say is this, they say we can't rescue search and rescue the entire length of the

Mediterranean from Italy to Libya, rescue every single person in trouble, that this would act as a pull factor, some have called it, that this would

encourage migrants to make the dangerous journey.

Do you agree with that?

LIU: No, we are really challenging that pull factor rhetoric. We really think that it's not sustainable in terms of narrative. The reality is

since we stopped the Mare Nostrum, the figures didn't decrease; the figure only increases. So what is going on right now is the fact that the

increasing number only reflect the despair of human beings trying to flee a context, either of war or of malnutrition, of desperate condition of life.

GORANI: But how do you solve the problem at the source? I mean, European can't be asked to solve the crisis in Libya, the war in other parts of the

Middle East, issues in Africa. I mean, in other words, how do you solve the -- address the problem at the source in the face of such an exodus of

desperate people?

LIU: Well, I think that I don't have a magic wand and MSF is working in 30 different conflicts, where people are fleeing different contexts, most of

them are conflict zones. So the reality is we are working in those contexts. We're going to continue to work there. And there is like

critical and dire needs. But as well we cannot just, I will say, turn our back to those specifically that is happening right now in the Mediterranean

because we cannot solve upstream the problem. I don't think that it's a responsible way of addressing what is going on right now in terms of

tragedy in the Mediterranean.

GORANI: You basically are saying there's a humanitarian imperative here.

LIU: Yes. And the thing is, I -- we're not the only one. But as we've seen that by having this, I will say, this visible action and putting the

pressure on E.U., we do hope that on Thursday with a specific summit on this different tragedy happening in the Mediterranean, they will take the

right decision.

GORANI: Dr. Joanne Liu, the international president of Doctors without Borders, thank you very much. You mentioned Thursday and we have, of

course, E.U. leaders meeting there, hopefully with a more tangible announcement on what they plan on doing in terms of search and rescue and

how to confront this growing crisis.

Thank you to you this evening from New York.

LIU: Thank you.

[14:15:00] GORANI: A horrifying tragedy for those making a perilous journey. But try to imagine not feeling safe on a trip you make every

single day.

For women in India's capital, public transport has long been a place of danger with no women even conducting the buses until now. The first female

bus driver has just begun her first week in the historically male job.

After a break, we turn to Yemen. I speak to U.S. national security analyst Anthony Cordesman about chaos rippling across the region -- next.

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GORANI: I'm Hala Gorani, sitting in tonight for Christiane.

Big news coming in right now regarding Yemen, at least on the face of it . We're waiting for more details. Saudi state television is reporting that

the coalition Riyadh Leave has achieved its goal there. It adds that, quote, "Operation Decisive Storm is ending, replaced," it says, "by

Operation Restoring Hope."

We have not heard what that will entail. This news comes just after the U.S. decision to step up its military presence in the waters off Yemen.

Right now, two American ships, an aircraft carrier and a guided missile cruiser are on their way to the Gulf of Aden. It's a clear warning sign to

Iran, a sign also of friendship with Saudi Arabia.

Now Iran suspects that -- I should say the U.S. suspects Iran is shipping arms to the Shiite Houthi fighters, trying to take down the government.

The beefed-up presence is also a sign of support, as we mentioned, for Saudis, who's taken the lead in trying to push back the Houthis.

This new bout of tension between the U.S. and Iran comes as a -- at a delicate moment as the two sides meet again tomorrow to try to hammer out a

final nuclear deal.

U.S. military analyst Anthony Cordesman joins me now from Washington with more.

We don't know much about Restoring Hope, this new operation that Saudi Arabia says it is launching. But do you read anything into it at this

early stage?

ANTHONY CORDESMAN, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC & INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: Well, I think one key issue is the bombing has gone on. There's sometimes been

more than 100 sorties a day. They probably hit virtually all of the major targets that they can hit that don't involve some form of civilian

population or facility.

And in the process, the U.N. reports you've got 12 million people where food, where the basic survival is questionable. The economy is beginning

to collapse. And we need to remember that for all this focus on the Houthi and Iran, you've also seen Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula make major

gains. You've had Sunnis fighting Sunnis.

So they have to shift at some point to dealing with the political structure with the population. And they have to find a way to provide aid, not

simply

[14:20:00] strikes. I think Saudi Arabia recognizes this and the U.S. recognizes it. And it is time to make a shift that focuses on the politics

and the people and not just the bombing.

GORANI: But 25 days of bombing, Anthony Cordesman, what have they achieved? The Houthis are still in charge. Hadi is still in exile. Aden

is a complete war zone. Civilians are desperate, fleeing if they can.

What have these bombings achieved?

CORDESMAN: Well, you've asked a very good question because what they've achieved essentially is to deprive the Houthis of a lot of arms, to keep

them from seizing significant amounts of weapons from the Yemeni army. But it isn't clear they've had a political result and if anything Al Qaeda in

the Arabian Peninsula is now far stronger than it was when the bombing campaign began.

What we don't see is the extent to which they've been able to find any kind of political solution or compromise. We do need to remember that the

Houthi, as Shiites, represent about 35 percent of the population. And there are deep divisions that go far beyond the Houthi in Iran and how well

Saudi Arabia or anyone else from the outside can deal with these as you pointed out is very questionable.

GORANI: Yes. Let's talk about these American warships heading to the waters off the coast of Yemen. What's the strategy there exactly, do you

think?

CORDESMAN: Well, I think one thing is to send a very key signal to Iran, that regardless of the negotiations over the nuclear treaty, the United

States is quite serious about backing Saudi Arabia and its Arab allies that the rumors or reports in the region that somehow the U.S. is turning

towards Iran simply aren't true. There's also --

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GORANI: Is this just a way of -- I'm sorry to jump in. Is this just a way of reassuring Saudi Arabia by doing nothing then parking 10 warships in the

water and essentially not engaging militarily at all?

CORDESMAN: I think it's a lot more than that because there are reports of a convoy. It is, I think, a clear signal to Iran it can't provide ships.

The navies that are not in the Arab world as strong as the air forces. The United States certainly brings capabilities that no Gulf state can provide,

certainly not the Saudi Red Sea fleet. And when you send this kind of signal to Iran, it probably is not going to provide arms, it isn't going to

try to use the ports that are under control of the people that's been trying to arm or support.

The other thing to remember here, this is one of the key entrances to the Suez Canal. It's one of the most critical maritime chokepoints in the

world. So securing these waters has a major strategic impact. And the Suez Canal is not only critical to us in economic terms, it's also how our

Navy moves into this region.

GORANI: All right. Anthony Cordesman, thanks very much for joining us. Really appreciate your time today.

CORDESMAN: My pleasure.

GORANI: Now while the U.S. gets involved in power struggles abroad, an interesting turn in the fight for its highest office at home, as the woman

vying for the cheeks of power in Washington gets a pass in the valleys of Wales, it seems that Hillary Clinton has discovered that she has a hidden

Welsh history after a genealogist found an error in Clinton's family tree, relocating her immigrant great-grandparents to an ancient parish in

Glamorgan.

After a break, a darker look facing the past. Imagine a world where the accountants of Auschwitz that's confronted with a number too horrifying to

contemplate. That is next.

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GORANI: And finally tonight, imagine a world where justice never expires. Today former SS guard Oskar Groening, known as the accountant of Auschwitz,

was put on trial for being an accessory to 300,000 counts of murder. The 93-year old entered court on his walker. It was a bittersweet victory,

though, for his victims as he turned to the bench and accepted his role in the Holocaust, saying, "It is without question that I am morally complicit

in the murder of millions of Jews through my activities at Auschwitz. Before the victims, I also admit to this moral guilt here with regret and

humanity. To the question as to whether I am criminally culpable, that is for you to decide," unquote.

It's been a long road to today's trial, the original case against Groening began in (INAUDIBLE).

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HEDY BOHM, AUSCHWITZ SURVIVOR: Personally, I don't feel vengeance. I don't want to see him go to jail. It's too late for it. He's too old.

And I do believe that being (INAUDIBLE) is for the loss of the established.

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