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Amanpour
France Helps Fight Two Global Crises; The Diverse Career of Juliette Binoche; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired April 29, 2015 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: we are live in Paris as France lends a helping hand to Nepal while it wrestles with a
migrant crisis closer to its shores. I'll talk to the former French foreign minister and the founder of MSF, Bernard Kouchner.
Also coming up, Oscar winner Juliette Binoche. She's turned down Spielberg and "Mission Impossible" but at 51, she gets more scripts than
she can handle.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JULIETTE BINOCHE, ACTOR: I'm not hanging on to the name or the numbers or the money or whether the numbers of the audience thinks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): And later from Binoche to brioche, sort of, how a bread maker from Senegal has won over the hearts and the stomachs of
Parisians.
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program, a special edition right here in France. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
France is at the center of two major aid efforts right now: today in Nepal, a French team took part in an amazing rescue. This man was pulled
out of the rubble after 80 hours. He's one of the lucky ones; 5,000 people and counting were killed in Saturday's massive quake.
And closer to home, migrants are risking everything to reach Europe. A French ship has now joined the rescue efforts in the Mediterranean as the
nation admits mistakes were made and vows to do all it can to stop people drowning as they set sail for a better life.
And nobody is better suited to talk about all of this than Bernard Kouchner. He's France's former foreign minister and he founded one of the
world's most respected and most efficient aid organizations, Medecins sans Frontieres.
M. Kouchner joins me now.
Welcome to the program again. Welcome back.
BERNARD KOUCHNER, FOUNDER, MEDECINS SANS FRONTIERES: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: It is an incredibly busy time and a vital time for rescuing people all over the world. France has really put its shoulders behind the
relief effort in Nepal.
Yes and no. Yes in Nepal and what about the Mediterranean Sea? So yes, you want real access to the people. Humanitarian movement is getting
very, let's say, much more important than before. OK.
But what are we doing for the people dying in the Mediterranean Sea, our sea, for all the days? Our sea, because we are all over Italy, France
and Spain. And we -- I --
(CROSSTALK)
KOUCHNER: -- what can I do?
AMANPOUR: -- should you be doing?
What should Europe be doing?
Because let's face it, part of this is because of the anti-immigration --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: -- that have mushroomed in this part of Europe, putting pressure on the government, making these immigrants the bad guys.
KOUCHNER: Christiane, is it a good reason to let them die?
AMANPOUR: No, I'm asking you.
KOUCHNER: No. OK. But I'm answering you --
AMANPOUR: -- everybody holding them to account?
KOUCHNER: Don't -- there is a problem of immigration, no doubt about that. But we are not obliged to let them die because if they are dying in
a great number, they are not coming in a great number on our -- out of the Mediterranean to our country.
First, we have to thank Italy because they are fighting and they are fighting and they are rescuing the people. We are not. And Europe then is
a shame because it interact together.
Of course it is difficult. Of course. But don't mix in between -- you have to make a choice, are we rescuing the people, dying, facing us,
the children, the -- et cetera or not?
No, we are not rescuing them.
And there is another problem, a very great problem, very important. We've known so for the time being an access to Europe. We have -- France
and the other 27 countries -- to go together to rescue the people --
AMANPOUR: So what is the --
KOUCHNER: -- fleet of rescue --
AMANPOUR: -- OK, fleet of rescue. That's all well and good.
But what about dividing the welcome committee? What about Europeans taking in migrants, depending on their ability, their population, their
wealth?
Is that a goer? Because some people are saying we'll just put them in reception centers --
[14:05:00]
KOUCHNER: -- coming of the growing up of the extreme rightist people, the rightist people, et cetera. We don't have to be stopped by these
people. Of first hand, general Europe and answer and sharing the burden of immigration should be, let's say, invented because it doesn't exist. We
are 550 million of European people.
Is it possible to get a sort of offering them a hope and a new way with visa to come slowly?
Yes, we have. But first we have to rescue the people and freak (ph) of rescue should be let's say invented by Europe; if there is no European
answer, it's more than a shame. It's a very great political fault.
AMANPOUR: A fleet of rescue ships, you're talking about, from all of Europe.
But let me just --
KOUCHNER: -- 28 --
AMANPOUR: -- from the 28 countries.
Let's move just quickly over to Nepal, because obviously that is also a massive crisis. But it seems to be one that people are much more willing
to help. MSF is obviously helping. You founded that organization. Governments are helping.
What does that say to you about the foreign aid budget? Again, a lot of the populist parties are calling for foreign aid budgets to be cut.
KOUCHNER: Yes, I know. I know. There is a crisis. That's this is a crisis for all Europe, less by the richest but well, there is a crisis.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: -- even in Great Britain, the UKIP is calling for the foreign aid budget --
KOUCHNER: -- no, but yes. But we see the U.K. sending some boats, some rescue ship in the Mediterranean Sea. We did one or two in France,
not enough. But let's separate the problem of immigration. Of course this is a very populist view on immigration. Let them die, they will not come.
And this is important to accept.
AMANPOUR: Do you think that part of the problem is the chaos in Libya and yourself and a lot of people were very much behind the intervention in
Libya.
Was that a mistake or was it just badly handled, badly negotiated?
KOUCHNER: It was not a mistake. It was really badly handled.
Why? Because we were all in favor of stopping the bombing on Benghazi because the consequences had been by a thousand of them. But after we had
to say -- I mean, the right to interfere and to protect the people is not to bomb and to leave. That was a mistake.
AMANPOUR: And some say the mistake was not negotiating --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: -- not negotiating the militia to come into the tent and to drop their weapons.
Let me just move on --
KOUCHNER: But, Christiane, is it possible to negotiate with the militia?
AMANPOUR: Isn't it possible to say you want us to save your lives? This is the quid pro quo. After this has happened, we negotiate for a
stable government --
KOUCHNER: Which would have been very difficult, but, yes, it was certainly the way.
AMANPOUR: That's what you should have done?
KOUCHNER: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Let me move on to a diplomatic issue that's somewhat different. The pope today, in his weekly audience, spoke about the scandal
of women and men not being paid the same for equal work.
That's one thing women are obviously very glad about. But France has an issue now with a gay ambassador trying to nominate him to the Vatican,
to the Holy See, and the Vatican has not said yes or no.
What is going on? You were foreign minister. What do you want to see happen?
KOUCHNER: It was my case. As a foreign minister, I had to tell the Vatican authorities you refuse my ambassador because he was a homosexual,
OK. You have to call back your ambassador in Paris. And they did. So we have to react
But what is very surprising that in the same time Pope Francis is a fantastic person, is a fantastic man. He has admitted he's an activist.
And in the same time sort of double language, he is refusing homosexuality. They don't have any lesson to -- I mean the Vatican authority -- to give
us.
AMANPOUR: So what do you think the government should do now? Say you either take our ambassador or you remove yours?
KOUCHNER: I did. I have no lesson to give to my actual minister of foreign affairs, but this is absolutely impossible to support, such a
selection, such a selection is impossible to support. Homosexuality or not, we were sending to the Vatican a good ambassador. That's all.
This is not an answer.
(LAUGHTER)
AMANPOUR: One of the issues France has announced today that it is putting nearly $4 billion back into the defense budget; that's some 34,000
military personnel who were going to lose their jobs or not, 18,000-plus are going to be saved.
Because there are obviously all these crises around that France needs its military --
[14:10:00]
KOUCHNER: Yes, we are at war, a very special and difficult to handle war. And that is not the right moment to decrease the level of the army
budget, certainly not. So I think was wise, very wise, coming from the president to maintain the number of soldiers he's quartered and also the
budget.
Will it be enough? I don't think so because it will -- we will face a very long confrontation with daish, of course in the Middle East, but all
over. We were unable -- not France, Europe -- and in a way your country -- we are not able to propose and to offer to the young people a sort of new
idea. We are guilty of that.
But it is not a good reason to stop the fight. We have to fight. We are at war.
AMANPOUR: And on that note, former foreign minister Bernard Kouchner, thank you for joining me tonight.
KOUCHNER: Thank you, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Thank you.
And one of France's most famous daredevils has paid his own special tribute to the quake victims of Nepal. Alain Robert, dubbed France's
Spider-Man, has scaled the highest building in Paris, the Montparnasse Tower. And he was carrying the Nepalese flag in part for those
mountaineers on Everest who were killed in the avalanches.
And next up, a different sort of French daredevil. Coming up on tonight's special edition live from Paris, actress Juliette Binoche. My
interview about the roles she takes and the blockbusters she's turned down.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. We are, of course, in Paris and the award-winning French actress, Juliette Binoche, is the reluctant
superstar. She rocketed to international fame in the 1988 film, "The Unbearable Lightness of Being," which was set during the Soviet invasion of
Czechoslovakia. And she went on to win an Oscar for her supporting role in the World War II romantic epic, "The English Patient."
She's led a fiercely independent career, choosing roles about stories that she says need to be told.
How has Juliette Binoche managed to defy Hollywood conventions so successfully? I found out when we met at the theater here in Paris, where
she's playing Antigone in the Greek tragedy by Sophocles, the tale of family loyalty, love and misogyny.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program.
BINOCHE: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Thank you for joining us. And here we are in the theater; you're doing Antigone.
What is it about Antigone or Sophocles that really attracted you to it?
BINOCHE: Well, the memory I had is of 18 years old, you know, watching "Antigone" on stage as a -- in an audience, it just -- it was
print in me forever. And when the director, Ivo Van Hove, said, we're thinking about a play, I just had it in me. And I had Sophocles' genius in
me because it's so relevant, it's so contemporary. And it's a political play. But Antigone is not political. She goes with her heart.
She is not trying to judge what's good and what's bad.
And also it's a confrontation of the masculine and the feminine and how much we need to feminine to go into the politics so the masculine is
trying to hear the heart as well.
[14:15:00]
AMANPOUR: And I think you called it misogynistic. You think that it's also -- I mean, you said, it's about masculine and feminine. The king
in this play is a tyrant but also somebody who doesn't particularly like women.
BINOCHE: Well, at the time, the Greek civilization, the women were pushed away before it was more matriarchal kind of a system. And since the
Greeks, the patriarchal really took over in the world. So I think Sophocles was genius enough to make really this confrontation, this big
question about do we need the feminine in our world? Do we need it in our lives, in a consciousness, in a way of behaving?
So for me it really is a very modern play.
(CROSSTALK)
BINOCHE: And a necessary play as well.
AMANPOUR: I'm also really interested in these themes that you're exploring and talking about right now because you said that the modern man
is afraid of the feminine.
What do you mean?
How does it show up in your --
(CROSSTALK)
BINOCHE: I think we're all afraid of the feminine, women and men, because the feminine represents somehow the emotions, side of ourselves.
Eros is not only about (INAUDIBLE), if I may say --
AMANPOUR: No, you may not on CNN.
(LAUGHTER)
BINOCHE: Oh, you were going to cut it --
AMANPOUR: I'm going to bleep it.
(LAUGHTER)
AMANPOUR: We're going to bleep it.
But anyway --
BINOCHE: But there's this pure neutrality behind all this.
AMANPOUR: And you have controlled your image and what you do very, very carefully. You don't -- I think you consciously decided not to be a
typical Hollywood actress, despite being an Academy Award winner, despite doing amazing successful and commercial big films.
You have decided to use your power as an actress and a star to do something else.
BINOCHE: My choices, I have to be related to a door inside me that is opening. And the door is really the heart.
AMANPOUR: And you're also taking on issues that a lot of women fear. Your latest film, "Clouds of Sils Maria," is about an aging actress.
You're 51, which is not old and you look great. But you know, a lot of other actresses do suffer their face, find it difficult actually to get
roles the older they get. And yet you're really embracing this.
BINOCHE: Yes, I do. I do because some -- I feel like you gain your face throughout time. And I think as a young woman, as a teenager, as a
young woman, of course you're going through all those emotions and those needs and all that.
But there's a moment -- it needs to turn. So whether you're hanging on to that past idea of, you know, what's glory and happiness and all that,
whether you find it in another way, which is more inside.
So when you're more at ease and liberated and happy inside somehow because you let go of all those needs and emotions somehow, then you don't
need to do stuff. It feels to me sometimes when I hear men or women -- I mean, there's also men doing it, but you lost it, you missed it, you know?
AMANPOUR: And we're going to play a clip right now and then we'll talk about it.
(VIDEO CLIP, "CLOUDS OF SILS MARIA")
AMANPOUR: How difficult was it for you take on the role of the old woman?
BINOCHE: I can only say that I had many roles inside this same film because it's -- I'm going through being this actress who's hanging on to
her past and hanging on to her success and like no accepting that she has changed and life has changed, that it's not the same rules anymore.
[14:20:00]
A lot of the scripts I got from American, it was the wife of -- but in Europe, I don't feel that as much.
AMANPOUR: There has been a lot of despair here in France and in whole journalistic community after the terrible killings of "Charlie Hebdo" and a
lot of despair over the whole idea of the foreigner and the migrant and the rise of the right wing.
What has it been like for you to live in this sort of post-"Charlie Hebdo" reality?
BINOCHE: I think it definitely changed the consciousness of the big underneath problems that haven't been resolved yet. And I think it has to
do with the education very much so from the -- being in school and making links between the different communities, religious communities. But France
has a special history, you know, because at schools, everybody's supposed to be the same. And we're not the same.
So there's a little bit of contradiction in a way. I think art is a wonderful reflection and a place where you can think and evolve and ask
questions of yourself. So there's a lot of work to do. But I think I shouldn't lose faith and carry on and try to be as wide as possible.
AMANPOUR: Juliette Binoche, thank you very much indeed.
BINOCHE: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And the cartoonist who famously drew the first "Charlie Hebdo" cover of a crying Prophet Muhammad right after the Paris attack has
now said that he will no longer draw him.
In a magazine interview, Luz said that he was not interested in the Prophet anymore, quote, "I got tired of him, just like I got tired of
Sarkozy," he said. "I'm not going to spend my life drawing them."
And coming up next, imagine an antidote to the anti-immigration parties. We'll tell you about a very special boulangerie. But first, if
music be the food of love, play on.
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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, France wouldn't be France without its baguettes. And France wouldn't be France without its immigrants. Now
imagine a world where they together make an award-winning couple. Our Jim Bittermann discovered a corner of Paris where the iconic long loaf has
become a symbol of so much more.
[14:25:45]
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JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SR. INTL. CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There are few things closer to a French man's heart and stomach than a hot, fresh
baguette. So much so that each year there are contests to (INAUDIBLE) the best one. This year, that honor for the Paris area goes to Le Grenier au
Pain, a bakery in the Montmartre neighborhood.
But what may surprise some of those flocking here for a taste of the bread so rooted in the French soul is that the man behind the crunchy soft
tradition is not a native French man at all but a Senegalese immigrant, Djibril Bodian. What's more, it's the second time in five years he's wowed
the judges in a blind tasting competition.
DJIBRIL BODIAN, BAKER (through translator): Indeed, I am a perfectionist. There are a lot of little details that may not be
significant to others. But to me, you cannot leave those out.
BITTERMANN (voice-over): Bodian's achievement comes at a time of growing anti-immigrant sentiment in France. Politicians from both the
extreme Right and Left are calling for tighter controls over the borders of Europe. But the baker's son, who came here with his parents at the age of
6, says outsiders have plenty to contribute to an ancient country like France. And he has little time for immigrants who complain about France or
French who complain about immigrants.
BODIAN (through translator): Diversity is something super important. It is what changes attitudes. We all think differently according to our
various cultures. So we must not deprive ourselves of this richness.
BITTERMANN (voice-over): Some of Bodian's customers are surprised to hear who is behind this year's finest example and such a symbol of France,
very proud to see what his success can mean for all immigrants here.
MARYSE LENERAND, CUSTOMER: (INAUDIBLE) to be able to (INAUDIBLE) if you want something, you can get it.
BITTERMANN (voice-over): Bodian, whose daily quest for the perfect baguette begins at 2:00 in the morning and often doesn't end until 9:00 at
night says all is achievable if immigrants are willing to work hard.
Terrorism and waves of illegal aliens coming across the Mediterranean may not have done much for the image of immigrants in France, but something
as simple and traditional as a baguette may serve to remind people of the contribution that immigrants can make -- Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Jim Bittermann at the boulangerie for us, with a clear case against the xenophobia of the anti-immigration parties here and around
Europe these days.
And that is it for our program tonight. And remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and
Twitter. Thank you for watching and goodbye from Paris.
END
