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Amanpour
Barzani in Washington for Talks on ISIS; Remembering the End of WWII in Europe; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired May 07, 2015 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: live from Westminster, where voters here in the U.K. have just three more hours to
cast their votes for who might win the most seats in the Parliament behind me. It is the most close and consequential U.K. election in decades.
Also ahead on the front lines against ISIS: the Kurdish president, Masoud Barzani, tells me more U.S. help is vital now.
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MASOUD BARZANI, KURDISH PRESIDENT (through translator): They firmly said they will do everything they can to get more weapons into the
Peshmerga's hands.
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AMANPOUR: And a triumph of freedom over tyranny. We remember victory in Europe, the end of World War II on this continent 70 years ago.
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to our program live from Westminster, where, as I said, voters have just three more hours to
cast their ballots for who will win the most seats and who will get to form the next government. They headed to the polls after a six-week campaign
that still showed the main parties in a dead heat.
But that's about all I can say about this election right now as strict election rules here mean that broadcasters are not allowed to talk politics
today until the polls close at 10:00 pm in three hours from now, when we will be back with our special all-night election coverage.
So right now, let us turn to a fragile yet critical young democracy in Afghanistan. The government there has launched an offensive against the
Taliban, which is trying to take over the critical province of Kunduz and reports say the Taliban is getting help from ISIS, which is seeking fertile
ground for recruits even 2,000 miles away from its birthplace in Iraq.
And the Kurdish Peshmerga forces have played the key role in clearing the terrorist group out of Iraqi towns and villages. But the Kurdish
president, Masoud Barzani, is now in the United States, asking President Obama for more weapons and for help in order to continue this fight.
And I asked him whether he thinks he'll get it when he joined me after his meetings in Washington.
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AMANPOUR: President Barzani, welcome back to the program.
BARZANI (through translator): Thank you.
AMANPOUR: You have been meeting with President Obama, with the vice president, with lots of officials in Washington.
What are you asking them for?
What do you want?
BARZANI (through translator): I sent them for their support that they are supporting in the Kurdish people that we are in against ISIS and I
asked for support and I asked them to understand the pain of our -- of our nation and they had a very good understanding and they promised us to
support us more.
AMANPOUR: Well, that's precisely the question I wanted to ask.
Have they promised to send you more and better weapons?
And directly to you because yes, the Peshmerga are on the front line against ISIS with quite old military stock.
BARZANI (through translator): Mr. Obama, he had a great knowledge about the Peshmerga and he praised the role of Peshmerga and they promised
that they will do everything they can to get more weapon into the Peshmerga's hands.
AMANPOUR: But as you know, and as we all know, that is going through Baghdad now.
Any changes? Will it come straight to you?
BARZANI (through translator): We would like to get the weapon direct to us. But the important thing that the Peshmerga can receive the weapons.
AMANPOUR: So tell me about the strategy to defeat ISIS.
Are you on the way to defeating ISIS?
BARZANI (through translator): It's a war in many fronts. It's not the Kurdish fight. But it's a great that we are in the front line and it's
a military war now. And we have defeated the ISIS in many fronts in Kurdistan. But the threat is still there and the strategy is to that
military intellectually and economically we have to fight ISIS and we have to widen the front line against ISIS.
AMANPOUR: Well, do you think that there will soon be a fight against ISIS to retake Mosul?
BARZANI (through translator): To liberate Mosul it's very important. And it's a strategic victory that we have to have sent. As long as daish
or ISIS is in Kurdistan, it's a constant to Kurdistan. So there is a very deep study to plan -- to set a plan how to liberate Mosul. And this is the
duty of the Iraqi military forces and the people of Mosul and the Peshmerga will support them.
AMANPOUR: And when do you think that plan might be implemented?
When will the time be ready?
BARZANI (through translator): It will be better if you excuse me not to answer this question. But we hope that we do that sooner than later.
But it will be in the next few months.
AMANPOUR: Tell me how expensive it is for you with the plunge in the price of oil, with the number of refugees that you have accepted in
Kurdistan.
Can you cope with this fight? Can you still afford this fight?
BARZANI (through translator): Indeed. It's a very difficult situation. We have 1 million and a half displaced people. They live in
Kurdistan and they had to leave their places because of ISIS. And this is a very heavy burden on us. And it's our duty as a humanitarian and a
patriotic duty.
There are some support but it's not in that level to have and ask them or to solve the situation.
AMANPOUR: Can I just ask you in general when you look at the whole battlefield, do you believe that your forces and the U.S. and the Iraqi
forces are winning the battle against daish, against ISIS?
BARZANI (through translator): I can tell you now that we are victorious in this battle, in this war and it's a very unique challenge.
It's 20,000 kilometers that we liberated from the ISIS. I would not say that daish has been finished but we managed to defeat daish or ISIS in many
places.
AMANPOUR: You just mentioned the amount of square kilometers that you have won back. And it's true that the Kurds have won something like 40
percent more territory in this fight against ISIS.
What about your dreams for independence? Is that something that's going to happen this year, next year?
BARZANI (through translator): I can only say that this is a process that we have started and we will continue doing so. And this is the
natural right of the Kurdish people. But if it's this year or next year, I cannot say, it will be difficult to estimate the time and I hope that it
will be sooner than later.
AMANPOUR: And finally what is your relationship with the Baghdad government?
Is it better now?
BARZANI (through translator): It's much better now. There are some disputes and there are difficulties. But we are insisting on solving the
difficulties, the problems.
AMANPOUR: And the relationship between you and Prime Minister Abadi is better than under Prime Minister Maliki?
BARZANI (through translator): Indeed. It's -- it is much better.
AMANPOUR: All right. President Barzani, we wish you luck and --
(CROSSTALK)
BARZANI (through translator): It's not that on a personal level. It's on the professional level, yes, it is. It is much better.
AMANPOUR: Yes, of course. And on that note, President Barzani, thank you so much for joining me again.
BARZANI (through translator): Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And more progress from Baghdad; the city has its first female mayor. Dr. Zekra Alwach has been appointed acting mayor of Baghdad
as her predecessor was dismissed by the new Abadi government for corruption.
Alwach wants this to open more doors for more female administrators all over Iraq.
And when we come back, 70 years ago the titanic struggle between tyranny and freedom in Europe was over and freedom won as celebrations get
underway from Russia to Great Britain, we remember V.E. Day and why it is different this year.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
And of course I am outside the world famous houses of Parliament here in Central London. Three hours to go before polls close in what is a
knife's edge election. And we can start bringing you early results after those polls close.
Now this also coincides with the end of a war that guaranteed freedom and democracy would continue on this continent. Friday marks Victory in
Europe Day, 70 years ago. And all around me, the important monuments. Just a stone's throw away, the statue of Winston Churchill, the man who
saved Britain.
And just beyond is the Cenotaph, which remembers those who've been killed in all the great wars. The victory will be marked from here all the
way to Moscow and joining me to reflect on the anniversary and its significance in our world today is the British historian and writer, Taylor
Downing.
Professor Downing, welcome back to the program.
TAYLOR DOWNING, BRITISH HISTORIAN AND WRITER: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: So why is it important 70 years on?
Why 70 years that we recognize the end of the war on this continent? Of course it wasn't the full end of the war.
DOWNING: No, it wasn't. No. It was one of those momentous events in history. I think there are certain times -- we're going through an
election campaign at the moment. We think this is really important. But I think 1945 was one of the defining moments of the 20th century. It was the
end of the Second World War, the defeat of fascism in Europe, the defeat of Germany, the Reich that would last for 1,000 years, the death of Hitler.
But it was also then out of that came a Cold War, came another conflict, came something that divided the world for the next 50 years. So
it was one of those crucial dividing moments.
AMANPOUR: Let's talk about the -- you know, the Russians -- actually, they were the Soviets then and the contribution they made to the war
because, let's face it, today the British, the French, other European leaders will not be going to Moscow. They did for the 60th anniversary,
what the Russians called the great patriotic war.
But because of all the tensions on the continent, Ukraine, et cetera, they're not going.
What should we remember about the Soviet Union's contribution to the war?
DOWNING: Well, you know, the Soviet Union did a great deal of the fighting and the dying in the Second World War. Their losses were
absolutely enormous. There's still not real clarity on the exact numbers, but it was probably about 27 million.
AMANPOUR: Huge number.
DOWNING: People, huge numbers --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: -- how many others lost. Is it more than the more combined? It is more --
(CROSSTALK)
DOWNING: -- about half of the total losses in the whole of World War II were suffered by the Soviet Union. And of those 27 million, most of
them, of course, were civilians. There were massive casualties amongst the Red Army, the soldiers fighting. But the vast majority of that 27 million
were civilians.
There was -- the numbers are incredible, something like 42,000 factories were destroyed; 1,000 townships were laid waste; 90,000 farms
were utterly devastated.
AMANPOUR: And this is because of the attacks or because of famine, bad management and all the rest of it?
How did all these civilians get killed?
DOWNING: I mean, the German army was absolutely vicious in its invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941. The army went in and Hitler regarded
this not just as a war for living space, not just as a war against another country, but he regarded it as a racial war. It was the duty of the
Germans then in their bizarre, crazed sort of way of thinking about things to destroy the Slav people, to destroy the Russians, to kill as many as
possible. So that everywhere they went, the German soldiers set fire to houses, set fire to buildings, rounded people up, killed civilians. It was
just dreadful.
AMANPOUR: And let's not forget there's so much said about how the Soviets were instrumental to winning this war in Europe. But they did
actually go into it with a pact with Hitler in the first place.
DOWNING: They did, they did --
(CROSSTALK)
DOWNING: -- absolutely, just before the Second World War started on the 1st of September, 1939, that the Soviets signed a pact with Hitler to
carve up any future gains they make in the war. And so German invades Poland and, lo and behold, a few weeks later, the Soviet Union involves --
invades Poland and occupies the eastern half of the country --
AMANPOUR: Not to mention Finland and all the rest --
DOWNING: -- and Finland as well.
So it's a story of immense suffering but the lion's share of the fighting of the Second World War took place between the Germans and the Red
Army, about 90 percent of all German casualties in the war took place on the Eastern Front. The fronts that we thought that we regard as so
important in Britain, in North Africa then in Italy, then in Sicily, none of those were really at all significant in the great grand scheme of things
until the invasion of Normandy.
AMANPOUR: Let's talk a little bit. I mentioned Winston Churchill and he is, you know, the man who rallied a nation and rallied the world and
probably drew the U.S. into the war as well.
But he then faced an election.
DOWNING: He did.
AMANPOUR: Right afterwards.
DOWNING: Absolutely.
What you have to remember is that on the 8th now, V.E. Day, this was the Victory in Europe, Germany was defeated. But it wasn't the end of the
Second World War. There was still Japan, fighting on very, very bitterly in the Pacific Islands and in the campaigns in the Far East. And the
thinking then was that that would probably go on for about another -- at least another year and probably 18 months, then there would be an invasion
of the mainland or the islands of Japan, 2 million soldiers were probably going to take part in that. But it would be -- casualties would be
immense; the Japanese were fighting really ferociously. Hardly a man surrendered, a soldier surrendered; even the civilians on some of the
islands they were captured were committing suicide.
So the thought was this was going to be one of the bitterest campaigns of the war was still to come.
So the view in Britain, or certainly the view of the Labour Party, camdently (ph), after the defeat of Germany, was that we can't wait another
18 months. Now is the time to have a -- the next general election.
That was called; it took place in July 1945. And the great war leader who had been cheered from the balcony just a few yards from where we're
sitting now on V.E. Day night is defeated by a Labour landslide. People often say, you know, how can that be? How can the people who cheer the
great war leader one minute vote him out the next minute?
But of course, that's part of the democratic process.
AMANPOUR: A process we're about to see unfold --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: -- this evening. But let me ask you also it's 70 years on. Many of the veterans, those who are alive today, may not be next year and
the year after.
I have been struck by some of the really poignant stories of some of the veterans who celebrated having to -- well, being able to stop fighting
in Europe only to then be deployed to the Eastern battle front.
Your uncle, I believe, was an RAF navigator.
DOWNING: He was. That's right. He was one of probably many people who -- he had just qualified as an RAF navigator in May 1945. The Germans
surrender; the war is over in Europe and he probably, like many, many others, thought that's it. There's no more fighting or no fighting for me,
no risk of dying, either.
He then and his whole squadron -- he was a navigator in the Mosquitoes, the two-engine very fast precision light bombers. He was
suddenly told that he had to deploy to the Far East for this long campaign that, as I say, everybody thought was going to go on for another year or
more. Nobody knew -- or very few, I mean, the specialists knew that the atom bomb's being prepared.
So my uncle, Uncle John, flies off with his squadron to cross the world to go out to the Pacific and sadly -- or luckily for him -- he has an
accident. The plane crashes at one point. He has to wait for it to be repaired and by the time he arrives out in the Far East in Singapore, is
the very day that the atom bomb was dropped. And he escaped that war as well.
So my Uncle John had two lucky escapes from fighting. But it must have been a terrible feeling to think that you'd done your bit, that we'd
suffered, that Germany had been defeated but now tens of thousands were going to be sent off to what was thought to be the most ferocious fighting
yet in the Far East.
AMANPOUR: Amazing to remember that on this day particularly.
Taylor Downing, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
DOWNING: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: And we also remember a turning point in another war today. Exactly 100 years ago, the Lusitania was sunk off the coast of Ireland.
The British passenger liner, sailing from New York, was torpedoed by a German submarine on May 7th, 1915. And 1,200 people drowned.
It turned U.S. public opinion in favor of joining the Allies eventually in World War I. And after a break, from the ugliness of war to
the beauty of art, a thoroughly modern artist translates ancient Persian tradition into a prestigious Guggenheim retrospective.
We'll meet Monir when we come back.
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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine two worlds colliding and imagine art bringing them together.
Three renowned Iranian artists are featured right now at museums around the United States, but perhaps none screams success as loudly as New
York's Guggenheim Museum, where 91-year-old Monir Farmanfarmaian is the first Iranian to have a show there.
Evoking a Persian tradition that goes back 600 years that her hands have molded into a modern masterpiece. At 91, after spending decades in
New York, Monir has returned to Tehran to live and keep working and that's where our Fred Pleitgen met her.
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FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is what it looks like when modern expressionism meets Persian tradition. Monir
Farmanfarmaian 's working have been a fixture of the international art world for decades.
And now she's the first Iranian artist to have a solo exhibition at New York's renowned Guggenheim Museum.
MONIR FARMANFARMAIAN, IRANIAN ARTIST: And I never believed that I will have such a chance because I -- at my always Guggenheim Museum since
I've been to United States to New York.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): Born into a wealthy Iranian family, she moved to New York to study art in 1945 and became a mainstay of the evolving
scene of the '50s and '60s. One of her friends, the young artist named Andy Warhol. She created this for him, called "Nearer Ball." Like many of
her pieces, it relies on geometric shapes.
FARMANFARMAIAN: I have shown the possibility that how much possible to do different design in triangle or in hexagon or in pentagon. That is
the reason that I create in this shape in this floor of the hexagon, many different designs.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): At 91 years of age, Monir Farmanfarmaian works out of her studio in Iran's capital, Tehran. Still very much in charge of
day-to-day operations. Like her artwork, her life's story is a symbiosis of U.S. pop culture with the traditions of her native Iran. She traveled
through Iran extensively, discovering her homeland's rich and diverse culture.
FARMANFARMAIAN: I traveled so much 1960s, '64 and so on. All over the (INAUDIBLE) the tribes, sleeping in a tent, eat with them and so on.
And I loved the landscape. I loved the attitude of the people and I loved the history. This is my (INAUDIBLE) discovered that all the mosques and
all the tile work of the mosques and the carpets of Iranian, Persian rugs and all this is designed on geometry. And geometry is very important in
Iranian architecture and also in art.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): Farmanfarmaian left Iran after the Islamic revolution in 1979, returned there in 2004, feeling that the delicate
craftsmanship needed to construct her mirror art is only available here.
FARMANFARMAIAN: I cannot work any other place except Iraq because I have these gentlemans that the (INAUDIBLE) leftover after old masters.
They can help me.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): And while the exhibit at the Guggenheim is a culmination point and Monir Farmanfarmaian 's career, even at 91, she isn't
thinking of slowing down, constantly coming up with new ideas and designs merging American and Iranian culture into glittering artworks -- Fred
Pleitgen, CNN, Tehran.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And what a masterful way to end our program tonight.
Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and you can follow me on Facebook and Twitter.
And I'll be back in about 2.5 hours' time for CNN's U.K. election coverage, when the polls here close and we get the first indications of a
possible result. That starts just before 10:00 pm in London, 11:00 Central European Time. So please join me for that.
For now, thank you for watching and we leave you with pictures of some of the weird and wonderful British polling stations, everything from puffs
to boxing gyms and a launderette. Goodbye from London for now.
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