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Opposition Reports 220 Russian Soldiers Killed in Ukraine; "The Obama of Soweto"; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired May 12, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:00:12] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: smile for the cameras. The U.S. secretary of state and the Russian President

Vladimir Putin shake hands for the first time on Russian soil in two years. But tensions are rife, joining me live, a leading Russian opposition

figure.

Also ahead, the first black leader of South Africa's main opposition party spells out how he'll break the ANC's grip on power and deliver change for

the Rainbow Nation.

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MMUSI MAIMANE, DEMOCRATIC ALLIANCE: . it's a great privilege to me today as I sit here today that a child of a cashier really can end up leading the

main opposition party in South Africa.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

Good news for the Kremlin. For the first time in two years today, the U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry has come to Russia. He landed in the Olympic

city of Sochi for his first face-to-face talks with President Putin since the crisis over Ukraine began.

But lurking beneath these smiles and handshakes lie deep tensions and divisions as Washington accuses Moscow of still arming the rebels in

Eastern Ukraine and Moscow lashes out at the sanctions that's been imposed since it annexed Crimea.

Kerry's visit comes on the day a new report into the Ukraine crisis found that more 200 Russian soldiers have died fighting in Ukraine. The report

included information gathered by the leading anti-Kremlin dissident, Boris Nemtsov, who was assassinated in February. Kerry's trip also comes just as

another Kremlin critic and Moscow mayoral candidate, Alexei Navalny finds out whether he'll be going back to jail.

Now Vladimir Ashurkov is Navalny's right-hand man. He's now in exile here in London because he, too, is under threat. He's accused of embezzlement.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Mr. Ashurkov, welcome to the program.

VLADIMIR ASHURKOV, RUSSIAN DISSIDENT: Good evening.

AMANPOUR: First and foremost, is it a victory, a sort of a propaganda coup, diplomatic coup for the Kremlin to have the U.S. secretary of state

there for the first time in two years?

ASHURKOV: Well, I think it's important to keep the communication channels open during this time of tension and I think it's better to be sitting at

the table and exchanging small gifts. I've heard that Russian official plans that Mr. Kerry with some tomatoes and potatoes then scrambling jets

to intercept strategic bombers that are approaching airspace.

So I think in the international area, it's a coup for Russia.

AMANPOUR: So it may be a coup, but you say it's a good thing. When it comes to a good thing and what the U.S. is very good at is pressing for

democratic freedoms and particularly for the respect and the rights of dissidents such as Alexei Navalny, your colleague?

Do you expect Secretary Kerry to be doing that?

Do you expect the democratic process to be discussed in these meetings?

ASHURKOV: Well, I hope so. But I doubt it, because there are so many issues on the agenda between U.S. and Russia and a meeting at such high

level has not happened for two years. I think they will be discussing mostly global affairs rather than the destiny of Russian opposition

leaders.

AMANPOUR: Well, I want to get back to the Russian opposition leader and Navalny in particular, but first let me ask you about the global affairs.

The key strife between these two countries is about Eastern Ukraine and Crimea. Boris Nemtsov was famously assassinated just before he was to

publish what he called a major investigation into what he called Putin's war, finding now that 200 Russian soldiers were killed.

Give me an idea of the extent of that investigative report and do you think it's going to change the perception or the realities of this war in Russia?

ASHURKOV: Well, the report summarizes information from many public sources on the lies surrounding Russian invasion in Ukraine on the involvement of

Russian military personnel, on the cover-up of deaths of Russian soldiers that were fighting in Ukraine, the Russian involvement in the bringing down

of the Malaysian plane in the summer of last year.

So it is a very punchy report. And its significance is also that it was started by Boris Nemtsov, who was tragically killed two months ago. And it

is a testament of the perils and dangers that face Russian people who are fighting for freedom and truth.

[14:05:07] AMANPOUR: Now it was those very people who actually gathered all of that and put the report out, because he was killed before it could

be put out. How difficult was it? How difficult was it to get people to talk on the record, to go public?

Did you find opposition from the Kremlin or whoever from actually publishing it?

ASHURKOV: Well, bits and pieces were appearing in various Russian and international media reports from Russian soldiers who were injured, reports

from relatives whose sons were killed in Ukraine. So it's difficult to get people to talk on record because they are afraid, especially after Boris'

death. But I'm glad that Boris' allies finished this job and the report is now available.

AMANPOUR: But do you think it's going to make a difference? Because obviously the majority of the Russian people believe what the Kremlin and

what President Putin have said, A, that they're not involved and, B, that in any event, it's a great liberation struggle for the rights of likeminded

people in Ukraine and actually it's all a conspiracy against us by the West.

ASHURKOV: Well, if it were possible to put this report into the mailbox of every Russian family, I think it would have a major effect. But in Russia,

independent media is pressured and the coverage of this report is likely to be limited. President's secretary, Mr. Peskov, already said that they're

not familiar with the report and they're unlikely to comment on it.

AMANPOUR: So, yes, indeed, the foreign ministry, the president's press secretary has basically said they're not familiar and they do deny it in

general.

What about, though, the opposition? You're here in exile because of your connections and your fundraising. You've been targeted by what you call

the politically trumped-up accusation of embezzlement.

Alexei Navalny may face going back to jail tomorrow. He's got a court hearing.

What is the hope for any kind of attempt to politically face off against President Putin's hold on power?

ASHURKOV: Well, sure, I think it will take three ingredients. It will take politically active people, the opposition circles and the encouraging

news is that two weeks ago, various democratic force in Russia created a coalition to participate in the regional elections this year and more

importantly in the parliamentary elections next year.

But I think it will take also participation of wide population, who see their living conditions deteriorate because of economic crisis, who see the

social environment go down and also the business elite, who see the asset values decimated as a result of these tensions and they also not happy

about this policy that Putin's government is pursuing.

AMANPOUR: Now on the issue of sanctions, one of the things that the Russian government obviously wants is for the next G7 meeting, for

sanctions to be relieved.

What do you think about that? Certainly we also understand from diplomats that Russia is trying to get the world to accept the status quo when it

comes to Crimea or whatever might be happening in Eastern Ukraine continuously.

Do you support sanctions being removed right now?

ASHURKOV: Well, I am a Russian citizen. Sanctions affect Russian population. They drive up inflation. They take (INAUDIBLE) staples from

the tables of Russian citizens. So of course I would be glad if the sanctions are lifted.

AMANPOUR: And do you think that you -- well, you say you'd be glad the sanctions were lifted but do you not think that's the only pressure on the

Kremlin right now?

ASHURKOV: Well, I think the sanctions are there for a reason and even though I would like them to be lifted, I understand that the Western

countries cannot just leave -- not respond to such a brutal withdrawing of borders in Europe, what happened in Ukraine last year.

AMANPOUR: And do you think that you will be able to go back or you're just here temporarily, are you planning to go back to Moscow? Can you continue

sort of democratic activities there?

ASHURKOV: Absolutely. In today's world, I think communication tools allow you to work from anywhere. And I very much hope that I will be able to go

back to Russia once the situation is changed there.

AMANPOUR: And very briefly, do you think that Alexei Navalny will face going back to jail? Or is this just another court hearing?

ASHURKOV: This is like fifth time when this issue is brought to the court. All the -- always I'm on the edge of my chair. But I hope that he's going

to be free also tomorrow.

AMANPOUR: OK. Vladimir Ashurkov, thank you so much indeed for joining us tonight.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And as we've heard, trying to break the Kremlin's stranglehold on power will be a long, hard slog. But when we come back, we'll talk to a

new opposition leader who faces the equally daunting task of trying to break the ruling ANC's grip on South Africa.

[14:10:05] Mmusi Maimane, the first black leader of South Africa's Democratic Alliance Party joins me next.

AMANPOUR:

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

The South African media have dubbed him "the Obama of Soweto" and hope and change is what the new opposition leader promises to bring. Mmusi Maimane

was elected the head of the Democrat Alliance of the weekend after its leader, Helen Zille, stepped down. The 34-year-old preacher who grew up in

the biggest black township and married a white woman has put the old guard on notice, that he's determined to shake up the system two decades after

blacks first got the vote.

He made a powerful case when he joined me earlier from Johannesburg.

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AMANPOUR: Mr. Maimane, welcome to the program.

MAIMANE: Thank you so much for having me.

AMANPOUR: Well, here you are, elected; the first black leader of your party, is that going to make a difference?

Is that the significant change that you're hoping will be able to attract more?

MAIMANE: Look, it's an important change in the organization that I now happen to lead. But what's more important is the fact that we've also

adopted a very important document that addresses a values charter. We also believe that as an organization, we'll be outlining a vision for South

Africa in the next couple of weeks.

So what's a central issue is that it's a combination of saying we've opened up ourselves to South Africans to say any South African who believes they

want to be a part of the D.A. can certainly be a part of it and now we can take the journey forward.

AMANPOUR: You said you're going to outline that vision in a couple of weeks. Give us, though, since you've got this international platform, an

idea of what the heart and the core of your vision is and how it will be different from the ruling ANC or the D.A. before you became leader.

MAIMANE: Look, what's absolutely critical is that the challenges that South Africans face is the fact that 36 percent that use the broad

definition of unemployment are South Africans cannot find work; 66 percent of those are young people. And what we're saying is that the ANC is saying

the state must be at the center of economic development. We're arguing that in fact no government is able to create jobs, and certainly in the

last 21 years in South Africa we've seen that.

But all the outlining is saying is how do we break down the Berlin Wall in South Africa of inequality, where some are left out of the economy and

others are thriving in the same economy?

That's one of the key things. And then also we're looking at other issues, such as education, such as the safety of South Africans is a key concern

for many people and making sure that the institutions that govern our democracy are protected.

AMANPOUR: You are a younger, you sound dynamic but you also have on your left flank a very radical, rabble-rousing, dynamic EEF party, led by Julius

Malema.

How will you make a dent or how will you be able to beat what he appeals to, which is a very populist message appealing to a lot of the

dissatisfaction amongst South Africans?

[14:15:05] MAIMANE: Look, it's a challenge. What often happens in South Africa is, at the end of every election, we see a new party coming on board

or -- and certainly there are a lot of people that find this massive excitement towards that.

But we know for a fact that growing electorally is not a function of just simply being populist and coming up with slogans. We've shown here in

South Africa that you need systems; you need institutional capacity as a political party. You need to be an activist party. You need to have a

message that speaks to many South Africans.

So what many South Africans, even right now, they're looking at the EFF. They're describing them as people who will not uphold the rule of law, they

have no institutional capacity and quite frankly it's losing them votes. What we've got to do is ensure that over the long run people see that.

And I can't sit here today and say the EFF will be the party to contest against in 2019. We set here our sights, set on really challenging the ANC

and getting growth from power. So I'm not at all anxious about them. What the key focus for us is how do we get to our broad markets, to South

Africans who share values from different walks of life, who we can share a message of reconciliation, non-racialism, which is totally different to

what the EFF is saying.

On economic emancipation that is driven by entrepreneurship and private ownership, that's totally different from the EFF.

AMANPOUR: You yourself have your own inspirational life story, which is very similar to the vision that you are laying out for the rest of South

Africa. Tell me a little bit about what brought you from Soweto to leader of the main opposition.

MAIMANE: Yes, it's one of the tributes to the nature of the country that we live in. I mean, South Africa is a land of some challenges but also

some great opportunities. And as a Sowetan who grew up to very poor family, I think it's a great privilege to me today as I sit here today that

a child of a cashier really can end up leading the main opposition party in South Africa.

It comes out of the fact that the Democratic Alliance, a party that I lead, opens up opportunities. It says any South African can stand for positions

regardless of race, class, gender, all of that as discriminative, who can come on board, contest for elections.

My story is such of in many ways gritting down, working hard. I -- we didn't have any money so I had to pay. I had to work and almost pay for my

university my first degree. Then subsequent to that went out and got two master's degrees and now have been working away systematically towards

saying how can we contribute to the life of this country, how do we keep Nelson Mandela's dream alive?

And, yes, I don't think I've quite achieved what I've wanted to achieve. The journey's still far from over. We really believe that we can really

see the second transition in South Africa where, if democracy is to thrive, we've got to see a power shift, certainly in my lifetime.

AMANPOUR: And what about South Africa for all South Africans? We've seen over the last several weeks this really horrible sort of internecine

battles on the streets; people killed.

You know, how do you combat that kind of xenophobia?

MAIMANE: It is a massive challenge and certainly I stand here as a leader in South Africa, saying I don't support any of the actions of violence. I

understand that our people have gone through a very difficult time. We have a history as a nation of violence. We simply cannot be repeating that

in this time and in this age.

What is a key factor here is that I think the ANC government has failed to do effective border control. We've got more security for politicians than

we do for border control. The challenge of immigration is a global one. I understand that. There are South Africans living everywhere as there are

people from all over the world living in South Africa.

The challenge here is how do we make it effective, that anyone who is in this country is here legally, is able to get the right status. But

furthermore, in communities that are poor, how do we stimulate entrepreneurship? How do we make sure the economic conversation is taking

place? Because half of the dialogue is about how do we ensure South Africans are competing on an equal footing from a business level.

And then furthermore, the education system here in South Africa has really done a disservice to black South Africans in particular. And that's been

one of the greatest failures of the ANC and a passion of mine because it means that young people, not only are they unemployed, but they're

unemployable.

And I'm saying we've got to get past. We've got to get to a place where equitable opportunity for South Africans, both black and white in this

country, some South Africans get a decent education. They get a great schooling that opens up opportunities for them globally.

But South Africans who are still living in townships and communities get in the most inferior education. And I think we've improved access but we

haven't improved quality in education and if we're going to be competing globally, we've got to allow South African students to be able to come out

and compete with anybody.

But I think the final thing that's key here is that we've stopped the dialogue about race relations in this country. For a country that's come

from a very divisive, very evil and deplorable system of apartheid, the work that we've got to do is really reignite the conversation about what

does it mean to be African, what does it mean to be an inclusive society and what does a non-racial Africa look like.

AMANPOUR: And just to end, during your acceptance speech, you issued a direct challenge to President Zuma. You basically said if you're watching,

Mr. President, we are coming after you.

[14:20:03] What do you mean by that?

MAIMANE: We've been engaged in a legal battle against President Zuma where in fact over 700 charges of corruption and racketeering were dropped

against him through the national prosecuting authority and there's no rational legal basis in our view why those charges were dropped. And we

are of the view that you cannot allow any politician for the fact that they're connected to some other people, that in fact they can get charges

dropped away from them. Otherwise, you undermine the principle of the supremacy of the law.

You know, the preamble of the constitution of South Africa says we adopt this as a supreme law of the republic, which means everybody is subject to

that law. We're certainly a constitutional democracy. We cannot now in 21 years allow an individual regardless of whether they're the president or

whether they're anybody to have the right to be able to challenge a legal - - what should be a legal process through a process of patronage and being able to allow their friends to get them out of it.

And so President Zuma at this stage really epitomizes that principle but also for him that those charges cannot be dropped and that he must, as he's

always claimed, that he wants his day in court, that he's available to go to court so that we can really see the absolute merit and the case that

we've placed before him really be tested in a legal system.

AMANPOUR: Mmusi Maimane, thank you so much indeed for joining me.

MAIMANE: Much appreciated, thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And as he said at his weekend victory rally, nobody is above the law and no political party has the divine right to rule.

Next, we imagine a world shattering the class structure, social norms and entrenched political ideas. Add a dose of music and dance and you get

"Billy Elliot the Musical," celebrating a show that's been defying and defining convention for 10 years. That's next.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, it was a dream of stardom, amidst severe social discontent, wrapped up inside political drama. It was set in a

working class community in the north of 1980s England. And 10 years ago, "Billy Elliot" burst onstage in London's West End.

But imagine a world in which the story of a coal miner's son who dreams of becoming a ballet dancer is still one for our time.

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It is a tale of inspiration and aspiration, challenging stereotypes and staring down homophobia as Elton John, who wrote the score, said today, it

was unimaginable back then when he was growing up that West End audiences would leap to their feet and cheer such a story every night.

And this 10-year anniversary, of course, comes as Britain has just spoken in an election where similar political ideologies faced off. And in

between rehearsals for the celebration tonight, I asked the director, Stephen Daldry, and "Billy," AKA 10-year-old Thomas Hazelby, about the show

a decade on.

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STEPHEN DALDRY, DIRECTOR, "BILLY ELLIOT THE MUSICAL": It was 10 years ago tonight, and he's literally 10 years ago exactly and I don't think any of

us had any expectation that we would be still here 10 years later.

And also just then having taken the show to America and Australia and South America and Europe.

When's your birthday? What's the date of your birthday?

THOMAS HAZELBY, "BILLY ELLIOT": The 22nd of August.

DALDRY: So you were born -- you weren't even born when we started this show.

AMANPOUR: What about being in the 10th anniversary special?

HAZELBY: Oh, it's going to be absolutely amazing. Lots of Billy's are going to be taking over and they will be like swapping halfway through.

AMANPOUR: So it's going to be rolling Billys throughout the program?

DALDRY: We call it "tag team Billy," don't we?

HAZELBY: "Tag team Billy."

DALDRY: We just keep switching - sometimes in the middle of scenes.

HAZELBY: Yes. Sometimes in the middle of dances.

DALDRY: Yes.

AMANPOUR: I mean the film sort of marked the turn of this century, if I can say that, the 21st century. It came out in 2000 and then the musical.

And it is about evolving attitudes in politics, isn't it?

DALDRY: Well, it is about -- I mean, the story, it's about a community in crisis, a family in crisis, a community in crisis. And then at the heart

of it is a story about a -- Billy, as you know, and the community, if you like, gather around and eventually, from a position of opposition at the

beginning, come around to support this child and I think of it as an aspirational idea of regeneration, which is in the midst of this terrible

suffering that this mining community are going through.

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AMANPOUR: And indeed a story for out time. That was at the Victoria Palace Theater in London, where it all began, but "Billy" has traveled to

Holland, to Sao Paulo, North Korea -- rather, South Korea -- Australia and many other countries. It's drawn 10 million people to watch, more than 80

different Billys worldwide. And the Victoria Palace in London has just released another 600,000 tickets.

Will the show go on for another decade? Well, we're not sure but the interview will certainly go on. Stay tuned for much more of my talk with

today's "Billy" and director Stephen Daldry later this week.

And that is it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter.

Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

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