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Former Saudi Intel Chief: Problem is "Clouded" U.S. Policy; The Art of Negotiating Peace; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired May 14, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:00:23] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: the power of engaging. U.S. President Barack Obama is meeting crucial Gulf

allies but table talk about Iran could be icy and one big shot is a no- show. Former Saudi Arabia intelligence minister Prince Turki joins me in the studio.

And later we dive deeper because if you want to make peace, you have to negotiate. Lessons from Colombia and the man who brought the FARC rebels

in from the cold.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SERGIO JARAMILLO, COLOMBIA'S HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR PEACE: I myself am all for engagement. You always -- only if you try do you know how far you're

going to get.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

The deadline nears and the neighbors grow nervous about the nuclear deal being hammered out between the United States, world powers and Iran. The

Sunni Persian Gulf powers, led by Saudi Arabia, are meeting President Obama at Camp David. But there is a glaring absence, that of the new Saudi king,

Salman. In January, President Obama cut short a state visit in India to pay him respects in Riyadh after he assumed power.

But Salman isn't returning the favor; rather, he sent his crown prince to meet President Obama.

One regional expert says, quote, "There is a growing perception at the White House that the U.S. and Saudi Arabia are friends but not allies,

while the U.S. and Iran are allies but not friends."

So what does Saudi Arabia want?

And what will this summit achieve?

Prince Turki al-Faisal was head of Saudi Arabia's intelligence agency for 24 years and he joins me now here in London.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PRINCE TURKI AL-FAISAL, FORMER HEAD OF SAUDI ARABIA'S INTELLIGENCE AGENCY: Good evening.

AMANPOUR: Good evening and welcome back to the program.

So my two questions: first and foremost, do you believe this formula about friends, not allies?

Is Saudi Arabia still a friend of the United States?

AL-FAISAL: Saudi Arabia --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: And an ally?

AL-FAISAL: -- Saudi Arabia has had a long history of friendship and alliance with the United States for more than 70 years. And to say that

now we're no longer allies, I think, is a mistake.

AMANPOUR: Then why do you think King Salman didn't go?

It's been -- for whatever reason that is officially being given --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: -- it's been interpreted very negatively all over the world.

AL-FAISAL: Have you seen the photographs of the king's function yesterday?

AMANPOUR: No, but is -- my question is is his 29- or 30-year-old son an equal replacement for him?

AL-FAISAL: He has a very strong team that is representing him. The crown prince, who is in his early 50s, if age in an indicator of anything in this

matter, is representing the king with the defense minister, who is Prince (INAUDIBLE) Salman and other ministers, who are there.

Saudi Arabia is not belittling the meeting with the president. On the contrary, I think the team that was going there is the appropriate team for

the specific subject that they are discussing.

AMANPOUR: What do you think this summit will achieve if anything? It's obviously all about Iran, the big so-called elephant in the room which is

not in the room, is about Iran, it is about the nuclear deal and according to the White House, which has briefed this evening, all of the early

discussion today was about Iran.

Do you think President Obama will convince your crown prince, deputy crown prince, and the other Gulf leaders who are there that this is not a danger

to you, that it's actually an opportunity.

AL-FAISAL: My personal view and believe me this is personal because I do not represent the Saudi government at all nor am I privy to any of the

communications that occurred between the governments, Saudi Arabia and the United States.

My personal view is that President Obama since his first election campaign was pivoting towards Iran. If you look at his rhetoric and the subsequent

actions during the first term the first Nowruz (ph) celebrations --

AMANPOUR: Well, was that a bad thing? Is that a dangerous thing?

AL-FAISAL: I'm not saying it is a bad or a good thing. I'm just saying that this is my perception.

AMANPOUR: But that is what happened.

AL-FAISAL: Of where President Obama is going.

We have contact with Iran. We have embassy in Tehran and Tehran has an embassy in Riyadh.

[14:05:05] So there is no problem in having engagement between the president --

AMANPOUR: So what gives you so much angst? What gives the Saudi Arabians and the Gulf -- Persian Gulf allies so much heartburn?

AL-FAISAL: You know, on the nuclear deal for example, it's described as if the Gulf states and specifically Saudi Arabia is against the nuclear deal.

Look at the specific statements that have come out from the king and from other officials. We have welcomed the nuclear deal.

AMANPOUR: So you're not against it?

AL-FAISAL: Of course not. What we would like to be sure of is that when we read the fine print, once that deal is signed, hopefully next month,

that those -- that fine print will be reassuring to us that Iran's nuclear armed ambitions have been put a stop to. And we haven't seen that yet.

AMANPOUR: The U.S. says that that is what it is aiming for and that a heavily monitored, restricted Iran is much safer than an unhindered one.

Is Saudi Arabia more worried about the nuclear deal or about Iran's sanctions being lifted and ambitions in the region?

AL-FAISAL: Saudi Arabia wants to be sure that this nuclear deal does what the president has told us it will do. If that is the case, then whatever

happens after that whether it is sanctions or relations with Iran and so on, we have no problem with that. And let me just add, whatever Iran gets

from this deal, the whole world will seek to get --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: We're talking about a nuclear arm -- a nuclear race.

AL-FAISAL: Well, I'm talking about enrichment of uranium; I'm talking about technical advancement in the nuclear energy field. I'm talking about

the use of nuclear energy to produce electricity. All of these things, there will be an acceleration of that in order to make sure that we're not

left behind.

AMANPOUR: Meantime, what specifically -- I know you're not part of the government, but what specifically do you think the Saudi Arabians want

right now? We've heard about a sort of a defense security umbrella, like a NATO kind of thing that they're asking for. President Obama has said no to

that.

We've heard about advanced and much more sophisticated weaponry.

What do you think would be a success for your leaders to come away with?

AL-FAISAL: I think what we can -- from my personal view, what we can hope for is a clarity of vision on where we're going, not just on this issue,

but on issues like Syria for example ,like Iraq, like Yemen. These are all hot spots around us. And frankly, sitting on the outside, I'm having a

clouded view of sometimes where the United States stands.

AMANPOUR: Well, you -- let's take Syria . You just talk about a clouded view and it's been pretty cloudy from anybody's perspective over the last

four years of this war.

Now we hear that the United States is ready to start training some 90 of the moderate rebels. This is what the former deputy director of the CIA

told me about that when I interviewed him yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL MORELL, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR, CIA: I don't have a lot of confidence that our strategy is going to work. It's not that it's too

late, Christiane, it's that it's too little. We need to train ground troops in very large numbers if we're going to be able to take back

territory from ISIS in Syria. And what I fear is that we're going to successful in Iraq; we're going to have a hammer in Iraq but no anvil in

Syria.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So what do you make of training 90 -- it's too little and what is Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Qatar banding together to do?

AL-FAISAL: It is a first step, a good first step. But I would agree with the gentleman who just spoke. You need a much bigger engagement in Syria.

The United States and coalition members are fighting fahish. If you remember, I quoted fahish instead of daish; fahish means obscene -- in

Iraq, as the gentleman said, with a hammer.

And we need to have a double hammer to do that in Syria. And I don't know where the progression of this training is going to go. But if it solely

concentrated on treating the symptom, which is fahish, and leaving the disease, which Bashar al-Assad in Damascus, then it's not going to cure the

disease.

AMANPOUR: One last piece of assessment on Syria, do you think Assad is weak and possible to fall? Or is it still a long way to go without the

resources that you're talking about?

AL-FAISAL: Assad has been weak from the beginning.

[14:10:02] If it wasn't for Iranian, Russian and Hezbollah support, he would have gone by now two or three years ago. So there is no question in

my mind that he is weak. How long he will stay, I really don't know. That is something that the intelligence agencies will have to tell you; maybe

then you can tell me.

AMANPOUR: Or vice versa.

Let me ask you about domestic situation inside Saudi Arabia.

It is true that it is very difficult to read. However, there have been some notable differences since King Salman came in after the death of his

predecessor, King Abdullah.

You know that he has shown close ties to conservatives that his predecessor was trying to liberalize. He's dismissed the highest ranking woman, who

was the deputy education minister for girls because conservatives blocked her attempts to put P.E., physical education, in girls' schools, that he's

dismissed the head of the religious police who were seen as trying to curb the excesses and he's brought on a cleric as a royal adviser, who King

Abdullah had dismissed for being too conservative.

Are we seeing a reconservativized (sic) Saudi Arabia under the new king?

AL-FAISAL: King Salman has been in government and in the decision-making process in Saudi Arabia for the last 50 years. He's part and parcel of all

of the kings that preceded him in their efforts to improve and develop the kingdom and evolve into hopefully a better state for Saudis than had

previously occurred.

So to say that he is going to reverse what previous kings had done I think is wrong.

AMANPOUR: All right. Well, we'll --

AL-FAISAL: He is continuing with the same reforms and we should not read specific interpretations into the dismissal of officials. He has dismissed

men as well in his --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: -- when he dismisses the highest level woman.

AL-FAISAL: -- but you know, it's -- it was a question of what is going to be best for the girls' education rather than who is going to do it.

AMANPOUR: All right. Then I want to ask you one more thing, which has apparently put a whole hornet's next inside Saudi Arabia and that's what

President Obama said about the domestic situation to "The New York Times."

He said, "Populations that, in some cases, are alienated, youth that are underemployed, an ideology that is destructive and nihilistic, and in some

cases, just a belief that there are no legitimate political outlets for grievances."

AL-FAISAL: You would have to ask President Obama --

AMANPOUR: But how did that go down in --

AL-FAISAL: -- not very well. Not very well because --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: That's true, though.

AL-FAISAL: -- no, it's not. The kingdom is a pretty -- is the stablest (sic) country in the Middle East and has been for the last eight years.

AMANPOUR: But not the freest.

AL-FAISAL: Freest? That's a relative term. I don't know how you can measure freedom. Saudis are more free today than they were 10 years ago.

And that's where we're heading. We're not going backwards. We're going forwards.

AMANPOUR: All right. It is a slow process and we will have to talk about this process the next time around.

Prince Turki --

AL-FAISAL: -- will be happy to receive --

AMANPOUR: -- I certainly will -- Prince Turki, thank you very much indeed for joining us again.

AL-FAISAL: Thank you. Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: So Iran dismisses all of this hubbub as Iranophobia. But in Tehran itself, unveiling an artistic rapprochement, billboards once

reserved for ads religious and even anti-Western slogans are now displaying masterpieces from the West and also from the East.

The works of Picasso, Matisse and Munch now looking down upon the streets of Tehran, turning the city into a gallery where American and Persian

artists hang side by side.

And after a break, never negotiate with terrorists? That's a common mantra held by governments the world over. But not by my next guest.

Sergio Jaramillo on bringing FARC rebels to the table in Colombia -- that's next.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

As President Obama tries to persuade his Gulf allies that engaging Iran is the right way forward, we're reminded that it is never easy or popular to

engage your adversaries.

In Colombia, peace talks between the government and the Marxist FARC rebels have been going on for more than two years now, aimed at ending one of the

last Cold War holdouts, the 50-year conflict that's killed more than 200,000 Colombians.

They're happening in Havana, Cuba, which is also ending its half-century Cold War with the United States.

Sergio Jaramillo is the chief negotiator. And he explained to me what it takes and why it's so vital to sit down and hammer these things out.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Mr. Jaramillo, welcome to the program.

SERGIO JARAMILLO, COLOMBIA'S HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR PEACE: Many thanks for inviting me.

AMANPOUR: Tell me about these negotiations.

Are they in the end stretch?

Are you nearly there or not?

JARAMILLO: They are in the end stretch but as always the end stretch is the hardest bit. So until you're done, you cannot claim victory.

AMANPOUR: Well, I want to play you a little bit of an interview I did with your president, President Santos, back in 2012, when this all started and

he made it public.

JARAMILLO: Yes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUAN MANUEL SANTOS CALDERON, PRESIDENT OF COLOMBIA: So there has to be some kind of way out. And this way out has to be you can be able to

participate in the political arena. This is a way any conflict is settled, not only the Colombian conflict.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So that, though, is controversial in your country. We're going to show you a graphic, which shows that 79 percent actually don't want that

to happen; 89 percent say that they should be serving prison sentences.

How does that complicate your work?

JARAMILLO: Well, a lot, obviously. But that's what a peace process is about. That's what leadership such as President Santos is about and that

is, first of all, you have to make a decision to go for peace, run the political risks, is what President Santos has done. You need to decide to

engage.

And I myself am all for engagement. You always -- only if you try, do you know how far you're going to get.

AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you then because obviously what you're doing in your corner of the world has a lot of implications. The Iran nuclear deal,

two really hostile forces, the United States and Iran, for the last 30-plus years, how do you think they broke down the initial barriers?

How did you do it with FARC?

JARAMILLO: By building a message and by agreeing to secret pre- negotiations. We negotiated for almost six months in secret in Havana, a framework agreement, actually very similar idea to what they did in Iran

between the U.S. and Iran, with very similar methods, funnily enough, whiteboards full of blunt language.

And once that was clear, once the road map was clear, we could move on to a public phase.

AMANPOUR: You've been called the secret weapon in these negotiations, the person who developed the negotiating strategy.

How did you come up with it?

And how much did you learn for instance from the Northern Ireland peace process?

JARAMILLO: Well, first of all, it wasn't just me by any means. We have a very strong team. We have a currently brilliant team, headed by Humberto

de la Calle, former vice president, who's an extraordinary man.

We talked to lots of people. To take elements from successful peace processes, it may be very different. But structurally they're problems

that are similar, problems to do with trust, dignity, structure, that you can actually take from other things to feed into your process.

AMANPOUR: You say dignity and I hear that, you know, listen to the other story, listen to their story. We hear this endlessly in these difficult

negotiations.

One of the stories that FARC wants to make sure is that we don't go to jail. No successful peace process has put its senior whatever, guerillas,

insurgents, terrorists, in jail.

[14:20:00] Can you guarantee them that they won't go to jail?

JARAMILLO: No. No. I can guarantee them that we can -- we'll work as hard as we can to find a solution in terms of justice that will be the best

for them and the best for the Colombian people, especially for the victims that have been at the center of this peace process.

AMANPOUR: Do you believe that the victims' rights will trump the peace process; that, in other words, you may not succeed because of victims'

rights?

JARAMILLO: No. I think if you listen to the victims, you find that they can reinforce each other. Of course, you cannot be a maximalist either

way; otherwise you have no deal.

AMANPOUR: In the past and in this fight, the Colombian military has also committed atrocities.

Will they be brought into this equation? Are they -- you know, you're dealing with them, too.

Will they be held accountable?

JARAMILLO: Yes. Yes. You have to be prepared to -- the basis of any solution in terms of justice is that you are ready to acknowledge your own

responsibility. You don't have the moral authority to demand something from the other guys if you yourself don't look at yourself in the mirror.

It's very hard, very tough. One doesn't like to do that as a government. But you have to.

But then it's also an opportunity to use the end of the conflict to concoct the best possible solution for all victims, not just for the victims of

FARC.

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you then about the nuts and bolts of all of this. I've heard you say that you've got to be somewhat flexible but you've also

got to be firm.

So where are you flexible and where are you firm?

JARAMILLO: You have to be firm in the main goal, which is you want to end the conflict; that means there is no flexibility about you have to lay down

your weapons; you have to reintegrate into civilian life; otherwise there's no end to the conflict and no possibility of building peace.

You have to be firm in saying there are minimum standards with regard to victims that we have to observe. But how we do it, that's something that

we can agree on. That's something we can build together at a negotiating table.

AMANPOUR: You also talked about how very important it is to be in a secret location; for instance, in Havana. And I think they are continuing in

Havana, these talks.

JARAMILLO: That's correct, yes. That has been incredibly important but it also has downsides.

Our own experience in Colombia was that negotiating in Colombia wasn't possible. It becomes -- in a vibrant democracy within a very media-driven

democracy such as Colombia's, everything is public. So there's no way you can actually even talk about anything.

On the other hand, you do run the risk, which we are running, that the talks are seen as something that are -- is happening far away in a

different planet, somewhere out in Mars, these people are talking about what does it have to do with me.

That is a problem we should address.

AMANPOUR: And your president, your government has asked at least two of the FARC guerillas to come back to take part in a demining process.

JARAMILLO: That's correct. We agreed to -- we agreed to a very interesting CBM, confidence-building measure, which was to say let's do

some humanitarian demining in areas where the government is -- where they can't do it for security reasons, that is areas very close to the FARC.

Let's get some FARC guys out from the bush to point out where they laid the mines and let's get our own soldiers to work together with them under the

umbrella of a Norwegian organization, demining organization, to actually do demining and show people on the ground that things are changing, that

change is possible.

AMANPOUR: Is there a red line for you as a negotiator; in other words, let's say you were asked to do a negotiation with ISIS or Boko Haram or Al

Qaeda?

Can these people be negotiated with?

JARAMILLO: Well, there are minimal conditions that have to be there. There has to be a minimal will.

But I do think that -- and that's why I am so supportive myself of what President Santos has done and President Obama with Iran, which is to engage

-- only if you engage do you first understand what the other guy actually thinks, but often the fact of engagement changes the conditions. And you

start seeing solutions where you thought there were none; you see possibilities and you see ways forward.

AMANPOUR: Do you think you're going to be successful?

JARAMILLO: Absolutely.

AMANPOUR: You think you see the end game for Colombian government and FARC?

(CROSSTALK)

JARAMILLO: Absolutely. It will be very tough. There are many risks. There are many risks. The main risk today is losing the support of

Colombian public opinion.

But in terms of negotiation, yes.

AMANPOUR: Sergio Jaramillo, chief negotiator for your country, thank you very much indeed --

(CROSSTALK)

JARAMILLO: Thank you very much indeed. You're very kind. Thank you, Christiane.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Now Colombia is also at war with its cocaine traffickers and it's employing an unorthodox new weapon, a moth that loves coca leaves and

it's becoming a much needed war hero on Colombia's other front line.

And after a break, as if Greece doesn't have enough problems, now it's losing its marbles -- we'll explain after a break.

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AMANPOUR: And finally, we've seen tonight that it takes high stakes diplomacy to move the peace train along. But what about tricky cultural

diplomacy, about art, heritage and patrimony?

Greece, which is struggling to repay its debt and pay its bills may have hit a wall of marbles this week because it seems to have decided to ignore

advice from its lawyers to ask Britain again to give back the Elgin Marbles or take the U.K. to the ICC. And imagine when that lawyer is Amal Clooney.

Oh, well. She tried. But the Greek culture minister has decided to take a page out of the books of Presidents Obama and Santos. He says he will

engage with the, quote, "diplomatic and political approach," to end the 200-year standoff during which the Elgin Marbles have held court here at

the British Museum, which is just a blink of an eye compared to the 2,000 years they spent at home on the Parthenon in Athens.

It's not quite as dramatic as engaging Iran or the FARC guerillas but perhaps Greece is hoping that public opinion about the marbles will slowly

change perhaps before the next millennium.

And that is it for our program tonight. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

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