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Shiite Forces Move in on Ramadi; Syria's "Monuments Men"; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired May 18, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:00:12] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: two steps forward, one step back in the battle against ISIS. The Iraqi city of

Ramadi falls to the militants and on the ground former senior adviser to U.S. Central Command, Ali Khedery, will join us.

Also ahead, the expert leading a real-life group of monuments men, trying to keep priceless antiquities away from ISIS.

And how to stop the migrants' perilous exodus at the source. One inspiring Somali solution.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

ISIS now control Western Iraq's most populous city, Ramadi, and it is filming its exploits for the whole world to see as it fights back against

successful efforts to rout it elsewhere, for example, in Tikrit. Losing Ramadi is a massive setback. Iraqi military vehicles were seen beating a

hasty retreat and thousands of civilians have fled the city.

The mostly Sunni Anbar province has asked Baghdad now for help and it has mobilized Shiite militias, largely backed by Iran, and sent in its own

security forces on Monday to set up a defensive line 15 kilometers east of the city.

Ramadi, of course, was the center of the 2007 U.S. surge and the awakening, in which Sunni tribes, backed by America, turned against Al Qaeda in Iraq.

Now eight years later, its successor, ISIS, has retaken it.

Ali Khedery worked at the American embassy in Baghdad from 2003-2010, where he was a top adviser on U.S. policy and he joins me now from Erbil, the

capital of Iraqi Kurdistan.

Mr. Khedery, welcome to the program. From your vantage point, how bad is the development in Ramadi?

ALI KHEDERY, FORMER ADVISER, CENTCOM: Christiane, I've met with over a dozen members of both Iraqi and Kurdish cabinets over the past 72 hours and

frankly what I'm hearing from them is terrifying. All of them have expressed concerns and fear that I haven't seen since the darkest days of

the civil war in 2006-7. I think strategically the developments in Ramadi -- the developments in Ramadi represent a major setback for both Iraq and

the international community because it shows, frankly, that the strategy is not working. In other words, there's no military solution to this problem.

There needs to be more national reconciliation in Baghdad and not enough of it is occurring.

And so what you're seeing the rise of radical militant Sunnis and radical militant Shia and they're feeding off of each other, which is a very

dangerous international phenomenon.

AMANPOUR: Well, let me first ask you then about the Shias, who've been sent to rescue Ramadi as they have been doing in some of the other cities

as well.

I mean, to get it back is presumably a good thing, right? To get it back from ISIS.

KHEDERY: Well, the reality is that obviously ISIS is a group that must be defeated, but it will never be defeated -- radical Sunni militant groups

like ISIS will never be defeated with radical militant Shia groups because the mere presence of Iraqi-backed militias, who are responsible for

atrocities that, in some cases, are as bad as ISIS is, their mere presence fosters the Sunni insurgency and helps ISIS recruit.

Let me show you a statistic that a member of the Kurdish cabinet just shared with me a few minutes ago. He said that according to their

intelligence, there were 6,000 Iraqi police officers in Ramadi that collapsed in the face of 150 ISIS fighters. Ten car bombs were used and

lots of ammunition was seized from the Iraqi units.

So this is a major setback because time and again what we're seeing is the Iraqi forces are collapsing and the only -- those who are willing to fight

are the radical militant Sunnis and the radical military Shia. And, again, they're feeding off of each other. It's creating a very dangerous

phenomenon of transnational jihad, which will ultimately result in a tsunami of international terror.

AMANPOUR: So the prime minister, Haider al-Abadi, has said that --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Ali, can you hear me?

The -- can you hear me?

All right. So we are going to move on. Hopefully we can come back and

[14:05:00] finish our conversation with Ali Khedery.

But we want to move on to ISIS in Syria. It's pushing forward there, even though its second in command was killed by U.S. forces over the weekend.

It's going through virtually unhindered and it has been relentlessly balancing on Syria's most important ancient site, which is the historic

ruins at Palmyra. Now this has set off fears that it may destroy and loot this 2,000-year-old Roman era, the famous columns and the artifacts, which

are now a UNESCO World Heritage site. But one group of people are determined not to let that happen. With memories of the beating Iraq's

Mosul Museum took, Syrian archeologists and academics are risking their lives to document and protect their ancient treasures and they're being

dubbed "monuments men."

Leading that group is the antiquities expert, Amr Al-Azm. He's a professor of Middle East history and anthropology in the United States and he's

joining me now from Ohio.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Professor, welcome; thank you very much indeed for joining me.

And let me ask you first, what are you hearing from your people inside Syria?

Are these ISIS fighters closing in on the ruins?

AMR AL-AZM, PROFESSOR OF MIDDLE EAST HISTORY AND ANTHROPOLOGY: Well, just let me correct one thing. I'm not the leader of this as much as I am part

of a large group of people who are working and helping coordinate efforts to save Syria's cultural heritage.

But as far as your question's concerned, certainly as you know from the news, ISIS was making a very strong push and at one point had taken a

number of positions very close to the actual ruins of Palmyra in the north and eastern parts of the city, but have since then been pushed back.

And now they are holding positions in and around the city, essentially trying to encircle it and more importantly they've now taken control of the

vital resources, gas and oil, that are probably going to be one of their primary targets anyway. And these are now, as far as I hear, under their

control.

AMANPOUR: So tell me about the group of people, the large group of people who you are involved with and helping try to protect these treasures.

What exactly from your vantage point can you help them do, can you instruct them to do?

What are they doing?

AL-AZM: Certainly. I mean, you know, as the Syrian conflict became more and more convoluted and more violent, clearly the cultural heritage of

Syria was becoming a casualty of war. And increasingly raised concerns amongst many of us, who are both archeologists, museum curators, even local

activists. Some of us obviously living abroad, but many of those actually living inside Syria and a lot of them were actually students of mine at one

point or colleagues of mine when I used to work in Syria as well. There - - and as we saw the -- essentially the damage that was being done to these monuments and to the antiquities in the museums, we all felt that we had to

come together to start to try and do -- save what we can for -- from this culture --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Right.

AL-AZM: -- for the future of Syria. And often its documentation of you know, violations that are occurring or small-scale interventions such as

the sandbagging of the Museum of Mara (ph), which was completed at the beginning of this year.

AMANPOUR: And that is quite important. We have pictures of that, of the sandbags and you're trying to do that. And I understand also perhaps even

burying some of the treasures, finding out and recording their locations with GPS so you can go back.

How important is this treasure? We talked about the financial aspect for ISIS.

How important is that for ISIS?

AL-AZM: Well, you have to look at it -- from ISIS' perspective, what we often see in the news is the iconoclastic element, the fact that they're

destroying these cultural heritage artifacts and sites and monuments for religious reasons.

But it's really not so much that as much as this is a very powerful propaganda tool that they have at their disposal. It's connected to a dual

message, one that demonstrates it's part of a series of atrocities that they continue to commit, whether they're against individuals, such as the

beheadings, or against cultural heritage. So we refer to these as cultural heritage atrocities. And they have a dual purpose of one demonstrating the

ability of ISIS to act with impunity and, two, the ability or rather the impotence of the international community to stop ISIS. Together, the

combined effort, you know, the combination of this creates a very powerful message for the small, narrow group of powers of ISIS and they use that to

extreme effect.

AMANPOUR: Right. And it's not just --

(CROSSTALK)

[14:10:00] AL-AZM: -- Palmyra is a prime target for them.

AMANPOUR: Exactly. And it's not just, as you say, the propaganda effect but it's also money, isn't it? And I also understand that even Syrian

soldiers and members of other rebel groups have done their share of looting of artifacts and selling them.

Give us a sense of that.

AL-AZM: Obviously Syria has a very rich cultural heritage, very rich archeological heritage and a lot of these antiquities are being looted.

They've been looted by both sides, unfortunately, and they are increasingly becoming a important source of revenue for groups like ISIS. And obviously

any efforts to stop this trade is vital because it helps cut down on funding.

AMANPOUR: All right.

AL-AZM: And Palmyra in this case is an extremely important target for them because it offers them both access to a very valuable wealth of artifacts

that they can loot and also helps them with their propaganda war. And there is a #SavePalmyra hashtag right now; groups all over Syria are trying

-- even the regime is trying to save the city of Palmyra.

AMANPOUR: Right, and it was a huge tour -- yes, it was a huge source of revenue for them in the day. So Amr Al-Azm, thank you so much indeed for

joining us and we wish your colleagues luck on the ground with that historic site.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And we are going to turn back to Ali Khedery, whose connection we've just got again from Erbil. Of course he worked at the U.S. embassy

in Baghdad and we want to continue our political conversation on what it's going to take, Ali, to turn this ISIS tide around because you've got the

U.S. You've got the fighting there. You've got various militias. But it's obviously about politics.

This was meant to be Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi's great saving grace, that he was the inclusive man, he was the guy who could get the big tent

and bring everybody in.

What does Ramadi's fall say about that?

KHEDERY: It's a major setback for Prime Minister Abadi, who really is quite a reconciliatory figure. And it shows frankly how much damage Prime

Minister Maliki did over the past four years, as you and I discussed last time.

The reality is now again is the Iraqi national entity has broken down. In Kurdistan alone, a Kurdish minister told me today, there are 1.5 million

Iraqi refugees. And the Kurdish government is not receiving its budget allocation. So they're spending tens of millions of dollars every month on

refugees. Baghdad is not sending money. Also arms are not flowing and there are 90,000 Peshmerga on the front lines today who haven't received

their salaries in three months, Christiane.

So frankly, the international community is failing Iraq and the Iraqi leaders are failing Iraq. And Iraq and Syria continue to suffer from a

regional proxy war between two main axes, frankly, the Sunni axis and the Shia axis. And it's Syria and Iraq that are paying for it because they're

where the two fault lines collide.

AMANPOUR: So Secretary of State John Kerry seemed to imply that Ramadi could be taken back in not too short -- not too long a time, in quite short

order.

Do you think that's realistic? I mean, there aren't even American spotters on the ground directing the airstrikes.

So what militarily is realistic?

Why all the political solution has to be cemented?

KHEDERY: The reality is, as we learned during the surge, the military operations or intelligence operations can only be used as enablers with

the -- while the foundation has to be inherently political. The reason the surge succeeded, Christiane, you remember, is because there was an intense

American outreach to the Sunni insurgency. And frankly, I think the developments in Ramadi and in Mosul have demonstrated over the past year

that 90 percent of the fighters can be reconciled with this. When General Petraeus -- they called the reconcilables versus the probably 5 percent or

10 percent who are the irreconcilables, those are the ones that have to be killed.

But unless there's inclusive government in Baghdad, that recognizes all of Iraq citizens, Arab, Kurdish, Sunni, Shia, Christian, so on and so forth,

secularist or Islamist, unless all of them are treated as first-class citizens and until the government is able to provide security and economic

development and prosperity, then we will continue to have the problem of insurgency, which will lead to the problem of radicalization, which leads

to the problem of transnational jihad.

AMANPOUR: And just very quickly, I mean, again, Prime Minister Abadi was trying to bring all these people together. It's been said that he has his

own enemies, certainly former Prime Minister Maliki and others, who are doing everything to undermine him and that perhaps even Iran doesn't want

him to succeed.

How is he going to be able to bring all these factions together?

KHEDERY: Frankly, it's not looking good. Indeed, I hear from many top leaders of the country, including some from Prime Minister Maliki's own

coalition actually. What they're telling me

[14:15:00] is that Iran is grooming folks like Hadi Al-Amiri (ph), the commander of the Badr Corps (ph) or ice hasasi (ph), the commander of

assabel (ph), who --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: OK, these are the militias. These are the Shiite militias.

KHEDERY: -- Hezbollah -- yes. They're grooming them for -- to be the next premiers of the country. They're trying to marginalize Prime Minister

Abadi because he's Western leaning and he's trying to reach out to all the Iraqis because Iran wants to consolidate its control over Iraq. This is

what the Iraqi leaders, including Shia Islamists themselves, are telling me and needless to say many Sunni leaders and Kurds agree with that

assessment.

AMANPOUR: Ali Khedery, on that rather gloomy note, as we try to figure out what might happen in Iraq there, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

And so we've been discussing how to save the politics if it's possible, how to save the history and the antiquities in Palmyra. And when we come back

we're going to look at how to save a future for people who are still setting sail. The E.U. has announced tough new military measures on the

Mediterranean.

But what about attacking the root of the problem? That's next.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

The European Union is stepping up its fight against people smugglers on the Mediterranean Sea. Foreign and defense ministers meeting in Brussels today

have backed the establishment of a naval force that will target traffickers off the Libyan coast. And the timing couldn't be more critical because in

the past 18 months more than 5,000 migrants have died, making the perilous journey across the Mediterranean.

Many come from poor, war-torn countries like Syria, Somalia and Libya. My next guest says poverty, though, is slavery and a life without hope at home

isn't worth living.

Mohamed Abdulkadir Ali is a Somalia who's turned his entrepreneurial hand to showing how a little bit of effort and imagination can go a long way to

stemming the human tide at sea.

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AMANPOUR: Mr. Ali, welcome to the program.

MOHAMED ALI, FOUNDER, IFTIIN FOUNDATION; SOMALI ACTIVIST: Hi, Christine. Thank you for having me on the show.

AMANPOUR: I don't know what you think of what the E.U. has decided, basically a military intervention to try to stop these desperate people

from your country and others from coming to Europe.

Will that work?

ALI: Unfortunately, there has been no focus on why these migrants are making this journey.

There's a crisis happening within these countries. And I don't think you can effectively address the problem without first understanding the root

causes of migration.

AMANPOUR: If they have no jobs, how do they afford a $4,000 ticket to get across and pay the smugglers?

Who are these people?

ALI: I think the misconception is that the people making these migrations are the poorest of the poor. Many

[14:20:00] of these people have a source of income. They may have a job and in many cases what's driving them really is inequality. They have

absolutely no opportunities for upward social mobility.

They essentially want to opt out. And for Europe, this presents an opportunity for upward mobility.

And with Somali youth, you'll find that many of them are educated. They're intelligent, young people. For example, just yesterday, there was a

funeral for a young man by the name of Abdul Aziz (ph) in Cairo. He was a prominent young Somali journalist, recognized by many in the country and

his body had actually washed ashore off the coast of Alexandria when he was trying to make a journey from Egypt to the Mediterranean Sea to Europe.

AMANPOUR: So what is the sustainable long-term solution? Because look, I look in from outside; Somalia is still in a great deal of trouble

economically; the assault of Al-Shabaab, just the general sort of upheaval that goes on in Somalia on a daily basis.

Yet you are saying that actually you can help people and that entrepreneurship is the key to escaping this lack of hope and escaping this

poverty.

ALI: As much as 90 percent of employment comes from the private sector and when you go to Mogadishu, the private sector is flourishing. There's

mobile companies. There's service companies. And it's a really flourishing environment. And by supporting this environment, you can

create jobs.

One solution is to have the diaspora involved in this because a lot of the businesses here, as much as 85 percent are started with money from family

abroad.

AMANPOUR: Give me an example of some success stories, where you have helped young people set up their own business in Mogadishu.

ALI: So for example, we're now working with a young entrepreneur who's interested in starting camel milk processing plants in East Africa. And so

what we did was we connected him with a mentor who lives in Dubai who's familiar with the processing process.

And so hopefully in the next few months we're going to connect him with an investor who can launch his business.

And it's ideas like that, whether it's a dry cleaning company or a flour company --

AMANPOUR: Did you say a camel milk processing plant?

ALI: Yes. There's actually about 7 million camels living here in Somalia. And this idea is that there's a high demand for milk, especially for camel

milk, which is really highly nutritious. And so the idea is having process this camel milk and sell it abroad.

AMANPOUR: Can this kind of thing, this kind of entrepreneurship, really flourish in Somalia?

ALI: Yes. Entrepreneurship really is flourishing in Somalia. A lot of the services are coming from the private sector. A lot of the schools are

being run by the private sector. A lot of the hospitals are being run by the private sector.

AMANPOUR: And finally, one of the things that the European Union wants to do is to recruits some migrants who've made it over, have them tape

messages, almost like warnings, to other migrants or would-be migrants in Africa and have these messages blaring by audiotape from various bus

stations, in other words, along the smugglers' routes.

Do you think those warnings will have an impact?

ALI: These types of warnings really won't have a long-term impact. I mean, one solution is you have a large diaspora population, for example, of

Somalis living in Europe.

Why not engage them?

Why not partner with them to come up with sustainable solutions?

And unfortunately, the European policy so far has been very shortsighted. For example, over the past year there have been shutdowns of Somali money

transfer businesses. And this has cut down on remittance flows to Somalia. This is about $2 billion that are sent annually from families abroad to

support their families living in Somalia.

And I think for a family whose income has been cut off, pooling their resources together and maybe migrating to Europe is a viable solution.

AMANPOUR: Mohamed Abdulkadir Ali, thank you so much for joining me from Nairobi tonight.

ALI: Thank you for having me on the show.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Trying to find solutions and hope and opportunity for those desperately seeking it in Africa.

And next, imagine a world where hope is offered to the stateless by one of the grandest religious ceremonies of them all. That is when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight imagine a world welcoming four new Catholic saints into the fold. It doesn't happen often and it doesn't happen in

Palestine. But among the four nuns that Pope Francis canonized this weekend, two were Palestinian nuns, fresh off adding his moral authority to

the Palestinian cause by recognizing their state, Pope Francis has elevated Saints Marie Alphonsine Ghattas and Mariam Bawardy for their self-sacrifice

and their efforts for education as well as handful of miracles, all under the Ottoman Empire.

In Jerusalem, signs went up and celebratory prayers were held for the homegrown heroes. Meantime, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, a Muslim,

was at the canonization, where the pope called him an angel of peace to encourage talks with Israel, even though Prime Minister Netanyahu seems to

have flatly rejected a Palestinian state and for Palestine.

As for Pope Francis, he's hoping for his own miracle, a resurgence of peaceful Christianity in what was, after all, its birthplace.

That's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thank

you for watching and goodbye from London.

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