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Amanpour

Sepp Blatter Resigns from FIFA; Foreign Ministers Meet for Talks on ISIS; Lawyer Fights for Innocent on Death Row; Imagine a World. Aired 2- 2:30p ET

Aired June 02, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:00:15] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: FIFA president Sepp Blatter has resigned, just four days after being reelected

for a fifth term. My exclusive interview with the man who dared to challenge him. Prince Ali joins me live from Jordan.

Plus: ISIS rampages ahead while world leaders meet in Paris. But is there any strategy? Top Sunni tribal leader tells me the U.S. has left them on

their own.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHEIKH WISSAM HARDAN, SUNNI TRIBAL LEADER (through translator): ... they abandoned us and left us under the mercy of ISIS. We are asking for direct

military support...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Also ahead: one man's brave fight against America's death penalty. Bryan Stevenson, a champion for justice -- he also joins me

tonight.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in New York this week.

And Sepp Blatter is bowing to the inevitable after a disastrous week for world football's governing body.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEPP BLATTER, FIFA HEAD (through translator): ... put my presidency forward to a special elective Congress, the date of which a new president

can be chosen for the presidency succeed me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Now just 24 hours earlier on this program, Blatter's main challenger for the presidency, Prince Ali of Jordan, had urged him to do

just that, especially after indictments were handed down last Wednesday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRINCE ALI BIN HUSSEIN OF JORDAN: ...obviously if I was in Sepp Blatter's position, I would have immediately resigned and probably more so ages ago

because, at the end of the day, this happened under his watch.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Now Blatter has called for a fresh vote to elect his successor as soon as possible, as FIFA faces a U.S.-led investigation into what the

attorney general here calls "systemic corruption" inside FIFA. And a Swiss investigation into the bids for the 2018 and 2022 World Cups in Russia and

Qatar, respectively, those investigations are still underway.

And now joining me on the phone, exclusively from Amman, Jordan, is Prince Ali.

Prince Ali, welcome; welcome and thank you.

Tell me what your reaction is to today's news.

HUSSEIN: Thank you so much. I think that, you know, what has -- it is the right move from Sepp Blatter. And I think that we have to look to the

future.

AMANPOUR: Well, what is the future? Because you challenged him; you came closer than anyone else to, you know, unseating him.

If the future for you to, you know, stand for reelection, stand for election again?

HUSSEIN: Well, I'm always glad to serve football and I think that's the most important thing now after this. And I think that we have to do so

much work to fix this organization in a proper way and to serve the needs of our people.

AMANPOUR: So just let me pin you down, because you have talked about reform, about the need for change. You called yourself the change

candidate.

Will you run for the vote that will -- that will, you know, be set up to succeed Sepp Blatter?

Will you put your hat in the ring again?

HUSSEIN: I'm at the disposal of our national associations. That's it. You know, I mean, I don't want to be somebody who, you know, who is sort of

-- kicks somebody in the knees. But at the end of the day, I will do my part to help the national association and those across the world. And

especially in terms of the fact that we have to bring back FIFA to being a service organization, not a company, not anything else.

AMANPOUR: So we have heard now a number of reactions from all sorts of important areas, including here in the United States into those who had

started the investigation into FIFA, saying this is the tip of the iceberg. OK, so the top has changed. But there is a lot of work to be done to clean

up FIFA.

What kind of work do you see needing to be done?

And do you think FIFA can be cleaned up?

[14:05:01] HUSSEIN: I think it can. Look, at the end of the day, we have to salvage FIFA. And we have to bring it back to what it should be. This

idea of Europe boycotting or whatnot is ridiculous. FIFA is an organization that needs to serve the whole entire world. And I'm there to

support it as a developing nation for sure.

And therefore we have to stand together. And I think that right now we can do that.

AMANPOUR: The Swiss attorney general made a statement, his office made a statement after Blatter's resignation and he said Blatter himself was not

under investigation by that probe, by the Swiss probe.

But the probe into the bids in Russia and Qatar continue. And the chairman of the British FA, Football Association, Greg Dyke, has said, yes, as these

continue, Qatar better watch out. In other words, it may not get the World Cup, get to hold the World Cup.

What do you anticipate ahead as these investigations continue?

HUSSEIN: Look, I think that, again, every national association has the right to host the World Cup wherever it is. But they have to respect human

rights and when you have somebody like Sepp Blatter, who has not exactly been very forceful on this issue, then there is a problem.

I have worked very hard with other colleagues, with Michael van Praag, the head of the Dutch Football Association, to try and bring this to the table.

And we have to continue in that way. We have a responsibility to the whole world.

AMANPOUR: I've heard what you said to each time I've asked you about yourself standing for election again, if the national association gives

your backing -- their backing to you, would you like to stand again?

Will you stand again if they do so?

HUSSEIN: Look, it has been a very difficult campaign for many, many reasons. But I am at the disposal of all the national associations who

want to change, including many of them who were afraid to do so before this day. But I'm there. I'm there for them. And I think we need to salvaging

the situation. We have to help football and we have to help the world as a whole.

AMANPOUR: Prince Ali of Jordan, thank you very much indeed for joining me.

And as you heard the prince say, "I am there for them," about as close as he would say just now to agreeing that he will run again. So we'll wait

and see.

And now, the shakeup within FIFA begins, as the body prepares to face the full force of the law. Next, Iraqis face ISIS and the full force of war.

Bitter accusations of betrayal by tribal leaders who once rallied Sunnis to defeat extremists. That's after this.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. xxx

ISIS takes more territory as yet another crisis meeting takes place in Paris. But now a growing chorus of advice from former field commanders

that Syria must be part of the solution if ISIS is to be defeated in Iraq, as the former deputy CIA director recently told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL MORELL, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR, CIA: ... on the Syrian side of the border, I don't have a lot of confidence that our strategy is going to

work... what I fear is that we're going to successful in Iraq; we're going to have a hammer in Iraq but no anvil in Syria.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And in Syria right now, ISIS is on the move in the Aleppo province, sweeping up towns and villages and threatening the very gateway

to neighboring Turkey. A former U.S. counterterrorism official calls the Obama administration's strategy against ISIS, quote, "half-assed."

As ISIS rolls over more and more territory in Iraq, the West continues to hope for another so-called Sunni Awakening to defeat them. But my next

guest, Sheikh Wissam Hardan, one of the architects of the 2006 Sunni surge against Al Qaeda, says that they have been quite literally abandoned by the

West and by their own government in Baghdad, where he is currently lobbying for more help.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Sheikh Hardan, welcome to the program.

Let me start by asking you, does the Sunni population, do the Sunni tribes of Iraq have the will and the ability to fight ISIS?

HARDAN (through translator): Thank you very much for having me. Yes, the answer is yes. The Sunni tribes and the Awakening people, particularly the

Dulaimi tribe are able to fight ISIS forever, like -- just like we did in 2006 with some help from the American troops.

But now we don't have the necessary weapons or the finance. And the Awakening has been deactivated.

When Mr. al-Abadi took charge, he has neglected the Awakening. We are people with a strong will and we are able to fight ISIS because the fight

is ours before it's anyone else's.

If we were given the sufficient capabilities because our people know the area well. The Anbar people, the Sunnis in Anbar were unfairly accused of

being pro-ISIS because ISIS swept over the Sunni areas. But the truth is ISIS killed our children. If we get some -- if we still have the support

from the United States, we can fight ISIS just like we did Al Qaeda in 2006 and get them away from al-Anbar.

AMANPOUR: So you say that you're not getting the weapons from the Baghdad government. There are people here in the U.S. suggesting that the United

States should directly arm and train the Sunni tribes.

Is that what you're calling for?

HARDAN (through translator): We have been meeting with the people at the U.S. embassy and asking them to reinforce the Awakening.

However, the Anbar people have been getting killed and Americans are just standing, watching. Some of them are still fighting and some of them were

killed. But we're only getting promises.

The Awakening people were on the side of the American troops; however, they abandoned us and left us under the mercy of ISIS. We are asking for direct

military support and to scale up the support from the U.S. so that we can liberate Anbar without the help of the Iraqi military.

AMANPOUR: You say the United States has abandoned you. But the United States has been waging an air campaign against ISIS for almost a year now.

Is that working?

What is -- what is not working about it?

HARDAN (through translator): The Air Force, they're not ever be decisive in a war like this. ISIS people are just like crabs, so they hide in

holes. The Air Force cannot liberate house by house.

[14:15:03] There have to be troops on the ground like the Awakening did in 2006.

The Air Force again can be helping but it's not enough alone. They cannot decide the outcome of a war.

AMANPOUR: Ramadi has fallen. ISIS is planting its flags around Fallujah. It's obviously looking at Baghdad as well.

Do you think it is threatening Baghdad?

HARDAN (through translator): It seems that ISIS is determined to attack every Sunni area; wherever there are Sunnis, they attack. Sunnis have dug

their own graves because of those erroneous policies and because of the erroneous policies of the Sunni leaderships. They are not qualified to

lead the Sunnis. They are leading them to hell. And that's why ISIS is attacking every Sunni area.

AMANPOUR: There are reports that some Sunni tribe leaders are considering laying down their weapons and just being neutral.

Have you heard that? And do you think that is likely?

HARDAN (through translator): It's not only that the Sunnis do not have qualified leaderships. The problem is the United States picked the qum

(ph) among the Sunni tribes and puts them on the top of the Sunni sect and also Arabs, the Arabs in rich countries like Saudi Arabia and Qatar, have

been giving money, giving money to the qum (ph) Sunnis.

The government in Iraq has been dealing with the corrupted Sunnis only. The good Sunnis are sitting there and no one is paying them attention.

AMANPOUR: Very strong charges indeed.

HARDAN (through translator): Let me ask you this question: who will let the Sunnis through the hellfire if it was not for the Sunni leaders who

gave empty promises, wordy promises and they couldn't -- they could on any of them?

AMANPOUR: Who are you accusing?

HARDAN (through translator): I am accusing all the Sunni leaders in the parliament, those who hold the ministerial positions

AMANPOUR: Sheikh Wissam Hardan, thank you very much indeed for joining me from Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: So that life-and-death struggle continues overseas. But imagine winning the struggle to end wanton death in America's criminal justice

system. The brilliant Bryan Stevenson and his mission for just mercy -- next.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine the death penalty in America is in its dying days. The U.S. is regularly lambasted by the rest of the

democratic and developed world for being the lone death penalty holdout. But abolition advocates have new hope after Nebraska banned capital

punishment last week. It's the first conservative state to do so in more than 40 years.

In fact, executions are down in the United States since a peak in 1999.

So what is going on?

Joining me now in the studio is Bryan Stevenson. He's one of the top lawyers here in the United States working to free those who've been falsely

convicted and to end the death penalty.

Bryan Stevenson, welcome to the program.

BRYAN STEVENSON, U.S. LAWYER: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: So what actually is happening? First of all, why did Nebraska go that route?

STEVENSON: You know, I think this is the seventh state in the last eight years to abolish the death penalty and I think there's a growing

consciousness that the death penalty isn't an issue that can be decided by asking do people deserve to die for the crimes they've committed? We've

got to ask do we deserve to kill.

And our death penalty system has just seen incredible unreliability, unfairness; we've been having these executions where people have been

tortured because the drugs weren't working properly. And I think the whole spectacle of the death penalty is coming into a new focus.

The United States spent $80 billion last year on excessive punishment and mass incarceration. And people from both political parties are now

questioning whether this investment in punishment, in prison is sensible.

AMANPOUR: Because that actually is kind of a quiet undertone. I've only just become aware of how unbelievably expensive it is to prosecute and to

actually put a death penalty case to the -- because of the price of appeals, because of the cost of housing death penalty inmates.

STEVENSON: You know, the State of California has the largest death row in the country. They're spending about $200 million a year for the death

penalty. Over the next five years, they'll spend $1 billion on the death penalty and no one will be executed. And I think a lot of people are

saying, well, couldn't we use that money to actually improve public safety?

AMANPOUR: So there are, at last count, just over 3,000 inmates on death row awaiting execution. In your studies and in your work with your

project, how much of a percentage do you think is wrongly convicted?

STEVENSON: Oh, I think it's an enormously high percentage, not just the innocent, but if you look at people wrongly convicted, unfairly tried,

it's enormous. In mean, in the '80s, about 75 percent of the cases that were reviewed by federal courts resulted in new trials. And that changed

in the '90s because we made the courts less capable of granting review. But we still see an incredible error rate.

We just had the 153rd exoneration of an innocent person, a wrongly convicted and sentenced to death. That means that for every nine people

we've executed, we've now identified one innocent person on death row. That rate alone would make the death penalty pretty shocking.

AMANPOUR: And one of your clients, actually, Anthony Ray Hinton, who was in Alabama falsely convicted of a double murder back in 1985 and released

after 30 years on death row, let's just listen to what he said when he came out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

I want you to know there is a God. He sit high but he looks low. He will destroy but yet he will defend. And He defend me. And I just want to

thank Him. I'm not ashamed that you know that He sent me not just a lawyer, but the best lawyer, the best lawyer. And I couldn't have made it

without them.

And I want to say to the Vason (ph) family, I will continue to pray for you just as I have for 30 years. A miscarriage of justice not only to me but

to the victim's family. For all us that say that we believe in justice, this is the case to start showing it because I shouldn't have sit on death

row 30 years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: I mean, amazingly emotional, there you were also in that picture alongside him. And he was about to be executed for a crime he didn't

commit.

STEVENSON: That's right. It was an extraordinary day. He was -- he spent 30 years on death row for this crime he didn't commit. He was locked down

in a 5' x 7' cell. He actually witnessed 30 -- 53 executions during his time on death row. He would sometimes tell me that, in the early days,

when they used the electric chair, he could smell flesh burning the next day. And yet he was a remarkably hopeful person.

And what frustrated me about that case was that we actually had the evidence to prove his innocence 16 years ago.

[14:25:06]

There was ballistics evidence that we could use to compare the gun that they said was used in these crimes. And it clearly showed he didn't do it.

But none of the people who were involved in that prosecution were willing to even retest the evidence. They felt more comfortable of potentially

executing an innocent person than accepting responsibility that they had made a mistake.

AMANPOUR: Well, and you're talking about prosecutors, obviously, and the system. And we're going to play another sound bite, a very heartfelt one

from a prosecutor, who actually, his op-ed went viral from Louisiana. You know, he spoke and apologized for the wrong that he had done in putting

people on death row. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTY STROUD, FORMER PROSECUTOR: How can you give any credit to authority (ph) that was obtained when the -- when Mr. Ford was represented by two

attorneys who were very good attorneys, who had never tried a jury case, much less a criminal case.

And they're sitting there, trying their best to represent a man who is indigent and can't afford counsel?

I can't, looking back on it, that in and of itself should have put a signal to my dense brain that it was wrong. Back when I was in my early 30s, I

was caught up in that insanity, that the end justified the means and that we didn't try people who were innocent. And if anybody claimed they were

innocent, it was bogus.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Bryan, that is such an amazing mea culpa, and especially as we see these awful statistics, whereby 41.6 percent of death row inmates here

are black; 12.6 percent of the U.S. population is black. So there's a double injustice going on.

STEVENSON: And the even more troubling statistic is that about 80 percent of the people who are on death row are there for crimes involving victims

who are white, even though people of color are much more likely to be the victims of homicide.

But I think what made his statement so remarkable is that he accepted responsibility. He was -- he was remorseful.

And it's a shame that in this country that stands out because the job of a prosecutor is to do justice. They ought to be acknowledging when mistakes

are made, because we won't get to reform without that acknowledgement.

AMANPOUR: And yet potentially, it's the beginning of the dam breaking.

STEVENSON: Yes, it -- I hope so. I mean, we have a system that treats you better if you're rich and guilty than if you're poor and innocent. We need

reform. And we certainly need to stop killing people when we make the kind of mistakes that have characterized our system for so long.

AMANPOUR: Bryan Stevenson, keep up the fight. Thank you so much for joining us.

And that is it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter.

Thank you for watching and goodbye from New York.

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