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Amanpour

Breaking the Cycle of Violence in Gaza; Greece Leans Back at Cliff's Edge; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired June 22, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: placing blame. A U.N. report says Israel and Palestinian militants may have committed war crimes

during the conflict last year. We have reactions from both sides.

Also ahead: why the Greek prime minister and the European Commission president might finally have something to smile about.

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PLEITGEN: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Fred Pleitgen, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.

It's been about a year since the latest conflict between Hamas and Israel, one whose brutality shocked the world. Massive destruction and human

suffering on both sides once again led to no clear winner but many losers. More than 2,000 Palestinians and dozens of Israelis lost their lives. Many

more were wounded or traumatized.

The U.N. released a report on the conflict today and it states that there's evidence both Israel and Palestinian militants may have committed war

crimes. The investigation found, quote, "substantial information pointing to serious violations of international humanitarian law."

It takes aim at the Israeli military, claiming that when it comes to violating international law, quote, "impunity prevails across the board."

The document details instances of airstrikes and shelling targeting civilian areas. As for Hamas, the report criticizes the use of rockets to

indiscriminately target Israeli towns and Palestinian authorities who have, quote, "consistently failed to ensure that perpetrators are brought to

justice."

Now in just a moment, we'll go to Gaza for a response to the report. But first the Israeli government's point of view. Here's Prime Minister

Benjamin Netanyahu just a few moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: In defending itself against such attacks Israel's military acted -- and acts -- according to the

highest international standards. The report in hand was commissioned by a notoriously biased institution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: Israeli opposition leader Isaac Herzog also gave me his reaction to the report. He joined me earlier right here in the studio.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PLEITGEN: Isaac Herzog, welcome to the program.

First of all, of course, I have to ask you about the U.N. report.

What do you make of the findings? Because they've already been dismissed by the Israeli government.

But is that -- isn't that counterproductive?

ISAAC HERZOG, ZIONIST UNION: I don't need the U.N. report to tell me whether my army, my military, which defends me and my family, operates

according to the international law guidelines and whether it has the just cause of protecting my people.

I definitely believe the Israel Defense Forces operates in the best possible manner under the circumstances that we were faced with.

PLEITGEN: But here's this report, saying that there was extensive use of heavy weapons in civilian areas.

HERZOG: We were bombarded day in, day out, by Hamas missiles. Let's not be mistaken. We did not initiate that confrontation. We did not want it.

We tried as much as possible to contain it. Unfortunately --

(CROSSTALK)

HERZOG: -- easier said than done. First and foremost, personally -- and I believe most Israeli citizens feel very sorry for civilian casualties.

These are tragedies that come about from war, from the fact that missiles are launched from people's homes, from mosques, from shops, from hospitals,

from schools.

Let's understand the terrain of the battle. The battlefront was all civilian and it's used in this way in order to have a cause for Hamas to

rearm and attack again.

I would say between the lines that you read for the first time there is some justification for Israeli activity from that report.

And I also agree that what needs to be learned from the report will be learned.

PLEITGEN: But he question is how do you react to missiles being launched from civilian areas?

HERZOG: It's very complicated because the missiles that are launched, they are launched from places that are unseen. You see the missiles coming out.

You see the rockets coming out. You don't necessarily identify it before they're launched.

And sometimes you need the artillery in order to go in and claim the area and find the source of power. And especially you want to find where the

arsenal of the missiles is.

PLEITGEN: One of the things that the report also says is it laments what it calls "a lack of accountability." It says that there were

transgressions and it doesn't feel that Israel did enough to punish people who might have been involved in this.

(CROSSTALK)

[14:05:00] HERZOG: There is a very strong legal system in Israel. Actually, we are a country that indicts, investigates with no mercy. We

have a president in jail, a former president. We have a prime minister who's been indicted and charged and found guilty by the Israeli legal

system.

We are not fearful of investigating our military if needed and we've shown it in the past. There is a strong --

(CROSSTALK)

PLEITGEN: -- on this topic?

Are you happy with the -- because the -- Israel put out a report before this report --

HERZOG: The Israeli report is balanced and the Israeli report should be read carefully because usually U.N. reports are usually biased. They don't

understand the situation.

PLEITGEN: The reason why you're here is because there has been international backlash, not just because of the Gaza operation but also of

course because of a lot of policies in the West Bank as well, particularly settlements and the like.

And that has led to a campaign of boycott, divest and sanction, which so far isn't having a big effect. But it certainly is something that's a

cause for concern.

(CROSSTALK)

PLEITGEN: Isn't this going to strengthen that campaign?

HERZOG: Well, the BDS campaign, which is instigated by many forces who hate Israel and don't even recognize its legitimacy, is something which is

disturbing.

And my aim here, for example, in Britain was to meet students and who are brainwashed, day in, day out, by a couple of organizations, not knowing the

real truth. I lead an opposition which includes parties that are sister parties to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt or in the Arab world, something

you don't see anywhere in the world.

PLEITGEN: One thing that these groups say is that they are, again, Israel's policies in the West Bank and in Gaza. And right now what you

have is you have a prime minister who came out in the election campaign against you and said that there will never be a Palestinian state as long

as he is in power. He's since sort of backtracked from that.

You have this -- arguably the second most powerful man in the government, Naftali Bennett, who's come out and said he wants to annex about 60 percent

of the West Bank and hand Gaza over to Egypt.

HERZOG: We came close to forming a government. I led a campaign whereby we strengthened our force and power and political power. And yet,

Netanyahu is the one who has formed the government. And it will be a grave mistake on his part if he doesn't go back to the two-state solution, a

venue he said he has.

Now the proof of the pudding is in the eating. We want to see evidence to that effect. We want to see the Palestinians showing evidence to that

effect. I expect both Abbas and Netanyahu to sit down and negotiate, not to go through coercive international means. I don't believe in

unilateralism.

And I think there is a golden opportunity, despite all the odds that are against it, right now in a region which is divided, actually to try and

move on with the Palestinians.

And this is what we need to do.

PLEITGEN: Isaac Herzog, thank you for joining the program.

HERZOG: Thank you all very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PLEITGEN: That's one perspective on the report.

Now to the other side, because the report has been welcomed by Hamas officials in Gaza.

Ahmed Yousef is a senior Hamas figure. He used to be a political adviser to former Gaza prime minister Ismail Haniya. I spoke to him earlier from

Gaza City.

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PLEITGEN: Ahmed Yousef, thank you for joining the program.

DR. AHMED YOUSEF, FORMER SENIOR ADVISOR TO PRIME MINISTER ISMAIL HANIYA: You're welcome.

PLEITGEN: Sir, first of all, I need to ask you, what is your take on the U.N. report that has come out?

YOUSEF: Actually, Hamas welcomed the report. It's even we have some reservation regarding certain parts of that report. But in general, it's a

great -- it's giving all what the people expecting from this report, like the world story broke before (ph) after the 2008 aggression against Gaza.

It's condemning Israel and accusing Israel -- Israeli general of committing crimes, war crimes and the crimes against humanity. So -- and also that

the report, accusing the Palestine militant groups in Palestine, of also something similar to this.

PLEITGEN: It also criticizes Hamas quite heavily as well. It talks about the stationing of heavy weapons, including rockets, in civilian areas.

What do you say to that?

YOUSEF: Well, actually, there are some accusations about one or two schools it has some rocket been hided (sic) there. But this, again, this

is -- we are talking about the militant group. We are not saying Hamas.

We are -- and in -- that's something crystal clear in the report is not mentioning Hamas. They are mentioning militant group.

It might be some of those we -- people are investigating and this is -- this is something. Will it prove there were some people using these

school, public school for anything like this? I'm sure this is will never again will happen.

PLEITGEN: The rockets that were fired out of the Gaza Strip hit cities like Ashkelon.

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They hit cities like Sderot.

What are those rockets, if not a method of terrorizing civilian populations?

YOUSEF: No, it's -- this is a war and the American using cruise missile and attacking Iraq, they hit a lot of civilian area. This is part of the

war. And there is somebody being killed, you know what the American message. It's control damage.

And that's what really -- this is a war being -- it's full-fledged war using by all the Israeli military capabilities, attacking Gaza, and our

people who've been bleeding all the time. It's not the Israelis. It's not just the scaring. You are killing. You are making the people bleeding all

the time for 51 day. We are the people who've been paying the price for that aggression against us.

PLEITGEN: But at the same time, it's clear that they can't allow their population to be shelled by rockets constantly. And clearly there were

thousands of rockets that were fired from Gaza into Israeli territory. And the vast majority of those rockets were directed at civilian areas. They

were directed at towns that were around the Gaza Strip; some of them flew almost all the way to Tel Aviv.

YOUSEF: You know, but we are the people who are under occupation and we are the people who have been attacked. We've been -- the Israeli -- their

aggression against us, against our cities and towns, we have to defend ourselves. The occupation is still there. The Israeli, they have maybe

this engagement with Gaza but they have full control over the population of Gaza.

We -- Gaza have been under siege and we can't cross anywhere. So the Israelis, they have the full authority and full control over the

Palestinian population.

And they have this aggression against on what we should do. We have to defend ourselves.

PLEITGEN: Isn't it time to start talking to the Israelis though?

Isn't it time to try and find some sort of solution so that people in Gaza have a chance to breathe, so that perhaps there could be a longer period of

at least no conflict, so that there's not another bombing campaign, another missile campaign that's going to happen a year from now or two years from

now?

It seems as though there's a cycle of violence that goes on, specifically involving Gaza. And there seems to be no way of breaking through it.

YOUSEF: Yes, there is a vision for peace. But the Israeli, they don't believe in peace. They are just believe in war and every time they are

attacking the Palestinian, confiscate more land --

(CROSSTALK)

PLEITGEN: Would you -- would you offer the Israelis peace?

And would you -- would you recognize Israel?

YOUSEF: The issue of recognition, it is something -- is not to us imminent (ph). It's what -- what is imminent (ph) is ending the occupation. Give

us a home. Give our children a glimmer of hope to believe there is a future for them.

But what we have seen for the last 50 or 60 years is more Israeli aggression, more attack, more confiscating land, more killing for our

children and that's why the Israeli continue fully on their military might to undermine the Palestinian right and the hope still is determination,

yes. And that's why we still suffering, because the Israelis, they don't have a vision for peace.

PLEITGEN: Dr. Ahmed Yousef, thank you for joining the program.

YOUSEF: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PLEITGEN: So obviously still there is a long way to go for the two sides to make any sort of progress towards reconciliation and just ahead, we go

from the Middle East conflict to Europe's financial conflict. Can Greece avoid default? Stay tuned.

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PLEITGEN: Welcome back to the program.

And here's a question for you: why are these two men smiling? It seems like they have little reason to rejoice at this point. Greek Prime

Minister Alexis Tsipras has taken his country as close as it's ever been to default and possibly having to leave the Eurozone.

But he and the European Commission president were all laughs and back slaps this morning as Greece offered last-minute proposals to stave off economic

disaster. Even the leader of Europe's finance ministers who days ago said the chances for a deal were, quote, "very small," sounded more positive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEROEN DIJSSELBLOEM, EUROGROUP PRESIDENT: It's a welcome step and we consider it a step in the positive direction so I think it is also an

opportunity to get that deal this week. And that's what we will work for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: Seems like the Greeks might not be so positive. They are withdrawing billions of euros in cash, fearing government constraints.

Athens has until the end of the month to repay 1.6 billion euros in loans or default. And many Greeks are making their voices heard.

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PLEITGEN (voice-over): These are live pictures from outside the parliament in Athens and as you can see, there's a large crowd of protesters there.

And as you can hear, it's a very vocal crowd as well.

And even if they get to a deal, it's unlikely that it would be more than kicking the can down the road. Greeks want to keep the euro but still

despise the crippling austerity the E.U. and IMF have imposed on them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Yes to a deal, but not with further measures. No more measures. People are very tired. It's the

sixth year of the crisis and it's alive there have been no reforms. There have been a bunch of reforms over the last five years. Every second day,

they pass bills through parliament. Enough. We are very, very tired and our future can't continue to be so ominous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: Ominous is possibly the right word here and my next guest is former U.S. Treasury Secretary Larry Summers. He wrote this weekend that

Greece is possibly Europe's failed state in waiting.

Mr. Summers joins me now from Harvard.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PLEITGEN: Sir, welcome to the program.

LARRY SUMMERS, FORMER U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY: Glad to be with you.

PLEITGEN: So what do you think? Is this deal going to come through or are we going to see a long-term solution or could this be the beginning of the

end of Greece in the Eurozone and possibly a bigger economic disaster?

SUMMERS: Too early to know. Obviously the mood looks a little better this morning. But what's really crucial here is that the Greeks come forward

with further steps that the sense that there's an ideological war be deescalated, that people become pragmatic, that Europe recognizes that

Greece has been through more painful adjustment than any other country, that it's lost nearly a third of their public employees, that their GDP is

down nearly 30 percent, that they made adjustments far, far larger in the name of fiscal restraint than any other country has and that in light of

that, there has to be a balancing of Greece, Greek measures, with strong support of -- from the outside. That means recognizing the ultimate

unsustainability of Greece's debts. That means being prepared to continue to stand behind and support a resumption of confidence in the Greek banking

system. That means being prepared to make investments and support the kind of investments that create jobs, create opportunities for growth. All of

that is important if Greece and Europe and the world are going to make their way through this situation.

PLEITGEN: It's interesting that you mention growth, because one of the things that you've been saying is that growth is the only way to get out of

these gigantic deficits and to obviously get this economy back on track.

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But it seems as though -- first of all, there has been almost no economic growth recently in Greece. And it seems also as though there are different

takes on how that can be achieved.

The Germans clearly think that growth can only be achieved through austerity and the Greeks seem to have a very different take on that.

SUMMERS: I don't think it's realistic at all to think that austerity in and of itself produces growth. It means --

(CROSSTALK)

PLEITGEN: But the Germans have done it. I mean, the Germans themselves have imposed austerity on themselves and have done it.

SUMMERS: Well, the Germans haven't really imposed remotely as much austerity on themselves as the Greeks did. The Germans provided huge, huge

support to East Germany ultimately in a way that was successful. But it wasn't an austerity strategy that was imposed on East Germany. And the

argument is -- and I understand it -- it's that whatever, whatever, one country can only provide so much support to another country and at some

point the Greek economy has to stand on its own two feet. And maybe it won't be able to pay back debt. But it can't expect to be able to borrow

more and more and more. And that's the part of the German concern that's legitimate.

But I think one has to think about the transition and what the transition path is and one has to think about it in the context of the common

community that the Europeans have entered into.

But I do want to say one other thing about the German position here, because I think it is important to understand. Many in Germany and many

who look at Germany say we did it. Why can't others? But it's important to understand what Germany did. Germany held down its wages, gained

competitiveness and was prepared to lend people money. And in that way, Germany has found itself running the world's largest trade surplus.

And with Germany's large trade surplus, of course the Germany economy is prospering. But one thing: everybody can't run a trade surplus. And

Germany's gains have come heavily from running a trade surplus and to that extent in important respects they've come at the expense of other

countries.

So Germany's is a more successful strategy than it is a generalizable strategy.

PLEITGEN: What do you think the Greeks need to do, then? I mean there are certain things that the other Eurozone countries have said, for instance,

privatization, the pensions, touching the pensions, which is a huge issue, what are things that they need to put in place to finally get this off the

table -- because it's been going on for so long. And every time something like this comes up, a payment comes up, it seems like they're on the brink

of financial disaster.

SUMMERS: And look, I don't think this is going to be the last Greek crisis. There are deep structural issues within Greece politics and within

the Greek economy that are going to need to be addressed. I think the government has an awareness of some of the most important of those issues.

Greece does need to adjust pensions. It has the pension benefits that go with being a rich country and within Europe it is not a rich country. And

there does need to be some pension adjustment. And I believe the Greeks have put that forward. The Greeks need to reform their tax system, their

value-added tax system is too riddled with too many loopholes. And the Greeks recognize that and they are going to reform their tax system. The

Greeks need to create a much more permissive environment, an environment in which businesses can start more easily and can hire workers more flexibly.

And there's a great deal of work that needs to be done to achieve that. Greece ultimately will need to privatize important part of its asset base

because we've learned that companies work better in the private sector with shareholders who own them rather than in the public sector with a

government that's in charge, just look at the U.S. post office if you're in doubt about that proposition.

But the Greeks are right to be worried about giving away assets as part of a fire sale.

[14:25:01]

That is a valid concern. And so the pace of privatization needs to be appropriately measured. The Greeks need to insist on having a debt profile

out through time that is set carefully so that it doesn't act as too much of a deterrent to prosperity, because there is not a sense that if Greece

prospers, every dollar they earn or most of the dollars they earn are going to go to pay people off rather than to help the people of Greece. Those

are some of the things that I think are most important for Greece.

PLEITGEN: Larry Summers, thank you very much for your perspective.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PLEITGEN: And Greece is looking towards the unclear future in or possibly out of the Eurozone. After a break, America faces its own painful past.

Imagine a world where flags and not guns dominate national debates after the Charleston shootings -- that's next.

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PLEITGEN: And finally tonight, the recent attack on a historic African American church in Charleston has once again ignited the debate about gun

control in the U.S. Now imagine a world where the main focus turns away from weapons and a long-abandoned flag becomes the center of the

controversy.

As South Carolina continues to fly the Confederate emblem in front of its state capital, a passionate debate has erupted about its place in America

today. Supporters argue it is a symbol of the South's heritage. But to many others, it hearkens back to periods of segregation and slavery, a dark

past the U.S. is still struggle to fully overcome as the Charleston rampage clearly shows. Now more and more Americans of all races are calling for

the Confederate flag to be taken down, to be displayed only in museums in the future. Among their number, the Republican senator of South Carolina,

Lindsey Graham, who's set to call for the flag's removal from the state's grounds today.

That is it for our program. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.

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