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Confusion Reigns in Dramatic Day for Greece; Tsipras Urges Greeks to Vote "No"; A Life in Hiding; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired July 01, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN HOST (voice-over): Good evening, everyone, welcome to the program. I'm Michael Holmes in for Christiane today.

Well, what is going on in the mind of the Greek prime minister? It has been a day of confusion, high drama and some hard turns in the Greek saga.

Overnight Alexis Tsipras appeared to cave in to Europe's bailout demands, even though that deal was no longer on the table. But then hours later, in

a dramatic speech to the Greek people he urged a "no" vote to Europe's plan and denied that doing so would lead to the country leaving the euro.

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ALEXIS TSIPRAS, GREEK PRIME MINISTER (through translator): I would like to assure you this situation, it won't carry on too long and you won't lose

your wages and your pension. Your savings won't go away. Personally -- and I take on full responsibility -- for an instant solution after the

referendum.

HOLMES (voice-over): Greeks to be forgiven for doubting that promise and for being confused about just what is going on. Mr. Tsipras agreeing to

terms he then urged his people to reject. The German finance minister says there won't be talks until there's clarity.

WOLFGANG SCHAEUBLE, GERMAN FINANCE MINISTER (through translator): The situation has dramatically worsened since this government is in power.

They have done nothing. It has only reversed measures. It reneged on previously agreed commitments. It negotiated and negotiated. You can't in

all honesty to expect us to talk with them in a situation like this.

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HOLMES: Good evening, everyone, welcome again to the program. I'm Michael Holmes in for Christiane Amanpour.

Well, Matina Stevis is a journalist for "The Wall Street Journal" and more importantly, perhaps, she is Greek. She has written about the reaction

she's had covering this crisis for international media as well as a Greek journalist and about also the important human cost of this crisis.

I want to bring her in now. Now, Matina, you've said you've almost been avoiding saying that you're Greek sometimes.

What is it like to be Greek today?

MATINA STEVIS, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": Well, look, Michael, I've always been proud to be a Greek and that's no different today. Frankly, it's just

become tiresome and at times, especially when I've very busy or stressed with other things, a bit of stretch to have to explain myself or explain my

country or just have to listen to yet another half-baked opinion about what's going on and what we should be doing.

We're all very grateful that the world attention is on our country and God knows I work with international press. I've been writing about it for the

international audience. But it's been five years of being told things and accused of things by people who don't know that much.

So at times it gets a bit annoying.

HOLMES: Yes, now let's talk about the human side of things. Some people have described the Greek streak really as a humanitarian issue now, years

of economic hardship, six years really of economic depression by and large, 45 percent of retirees are living in poverty, 50 percent of young people

are out of work from your conversations with people there in Greece, who are living that day-to-day life on the street, how bad is it?

STEVIS: For some people it's extremely bad. So I'd say the poor are incredibly poor and are really on the verge of not being able to afford

very basic goods they need for sustenance. For others, like the middle class, who had a pretty sweet life here, it's not at the verge of

humanitarian disaster. But it's a major loss for them. It's a major hit. They have expectations. They've worked very hard for many years, had built

things and those have evaporated, have collapsed. I currently live in Africa, in Kenya, and I cover Africa. So I'm very cautious of using

phrases like "humanitarian catastrophe" but there is certainly a huge amount of pain and loss here and a lot of people, including the very old

and the very young, are truly at their wits' end.

HOLMES: And yet you are right. I mean, it is important to have context; this is a first world crisis, if it is a crisis. But certainly it's

difficult for a lot -- a large segment of the Greek population.

Do they, though, accept that Greece in many ways through its infrastructure, its tax system, its pension system got itself into this

mess?

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STEVIS: Yes, I think there's definitely a lot of acceptance of that. I wouldn't say by everyone. But a lot of people have come to understand that

to a huge degree it is our own fault.

However, the last five years have actually not helped in driving this home, in joining this country together and doing something constructive to get

out of it. On the contrary, because of many places prescribed and seen and forced on the nation from the outside, hurt pride, a loss of sovereignty

and a real sense that we're not in control and even if we made mistakes, we have no real way to correct them anymore is really powerful here.

HOLMES: Is there a sense that they -- that people feel that bureaucrats aren't seeing that human suffering, that bureaucrats in Europe, I mean?

STEVIS: I think so. I think that's kind of widely accepted here. The press has done a great job trying to cover that in international and the

local press. And people do pay lip service always to the human tragedy, you know, even the pope's not have been negotiations. Maybe that's what

we need. But today he made special mention of people who were suffering from this crisis here in Greece.

But in reality, we haven't seen a true change in the prescription of policies that have made this country be in the worst recession since the

Great Depression.

HOLMES: So who do people blame the most?

Do they blame Europe or do many of them blame their own politicians, including the incumbents, who really do, in a bewildering way, seem to

change their minds almost daily; Alexis Tsipras elected, making promises that are easy to make when you're a candidate. But difficult to fulfill

when you're in office.

STEVIS: You're telling me, Michael. I've been myself very confused these days. I'd say people blame everyone and themselves and depending on who

you talk to, they blame someone more. And depending on how desperate they are, and how angry they are, they will only see one person to blame.

So you'll talk to people who only blame Angela Merkel and the Germans. Others will only blame the IMF. And but I'd say the majority of people who

are, at least that crucial chunk of the middle class, are more balance in that they know that their own politicians that we elected in government for

the last 40 years are largely responsible. We ourselves are responsible. But we have not been held, on the contrary, this country has suffered

because of the decisions, the persistence. And at some point the fixation of people outside the country.

HOLMES: You are, of course, in your professional life an impartial journalist. But as a Greek, how do you hope this plays out?

STEVIS: To be honest, Michael, I know as a journalist and as an economist that this is not going to end regardless of the outcome of the referendum

on Sunday. If Greece stays in the euro, if Greece returns to a national currency, the years ahead are going to be extremely difficult. And that's

the difficult part here. No one can promise Greece that things are going to get better fast.

What I hope is that this nation heals and makes a decision that brings it together. I would hate to see this country that my father and my

forefathers and everyone's fathers here tried to build up and made massive mistakes, of course, return to a situation where we have to ration food and

fuel.

And it's been heartbreaking seeing images of pensioners beg to get their pensions.

HOLMES: Yes, I can imagine. Matina Stevis, journalist with "The Wall Street Journal," our thanks to you. It's great to get your perspective

there in Athens.

STEVIS: Thank you.

HOLMES: Not everyone in Europe supports the stance of the Eurogroup finance ministers and not everyone in Germany supports the position taken

by Chancellor Angela Merkel. One of those people is the German member of the European parliament, Fabio De Masi. He is a member of the Confederal

Group of the European United Left. He joins us now from Brussels.

And thanks for doing so.

Tell me, is Europe expecting too much?

Can Greece even service a debt it can never repay and just continue on with indefinite austerity?

Or do you think some measure of debt forgiveness is inevitable?

FABIO DE MASI, GERMAN MEMBER, EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT: I think that forgiveness is inevitable for simple reasons, because European taxpayers

have already paid too much. So Greece is not demanding more money. They want a solution for the old debt, which has not been incurred to pay for

the Greek pensioner, for -- to pay for the Greek nurse. It has been incurred to bail out German and French banks indeed.

HOLMES: You could forgive European frustration though with Mr. Tsipras, for example, as we were saying, elected on the back of

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promises he's proven that he can't really keep. He does move the goalposts in negotiations sometimes.

I mean, today we saw him agree to something and then urge his voters to reject it in the referendum. He's hardly been an easy negotiating partner.

DE MASI: I think that Mr. Tsipras has made very humble and straightforward proposals. There's very sound logic behind it. So if you want somebody to

pay back his or her debts, you must grant them the right to earn an income. And if you cut back on pensions, if you cut back on wages, if you increase

consumption taxes, Greek economy will never get back on its feet. And what we can see now is that Mr. Tsipras made another offer but it was bluntly

refused because the European governments are not about solving this crisis in the very interest of their own taxpayers. They're about toppling that

government. And so they want to frighten people in Greece through creating panic in the banking system. And then they expect them to vote yes. But I

think this is not what the Greek people will be doing on Sunday.

HOLMES: So then, why, at its core, do you think that European leaders have been so intransigent (ph), so tough when it comes to the overall debt

burden? And importantly, as you mentioned, the imposition of austerity at this level?

DE MASI: I think that it's a mixture of ideology, of bad economics and of interests. So for example, they forced Greece to privatize many public

goods at fire sale prices and certainly even German corporations for example benefited from that.

And they think, Germany thinks that they can use Greece as some kind of extended workshop to assemble then the parts and export them to Asia, to

the United States. But this not a model which is based on sound economics because if you export, if you sell more abroad than you import, then

somebody else has to insure the debt, whether it is Greece, whether it is China or whether it is the United States.

So I think that it is in the best interest of the European economy to end austerity.

HOLMES: So do you think part of it might be the potentially if Europe gives too much to Greece in terms of alleviating that burden, do you think

that part of it is that the potential ramifications for the continent in general -- you've got elections coming up in Portugal; you've got elections

coming up in Spain. Do you think -- Brussels is worried about a shift to the Left in those countries, demands for relief as well.

DE MASI: Yes. I think you're absolutely right about that. That's one of the big motives behind this incredible chaos we see now, is that they want

to teach the electorate a lesson. If you have a day to vote for a leftist government with a so economic program, you will be punished. This is the

lesson they want to send to Spain, to Ireland, to other countries. And this is why I believe that the Greek electorate is not voting about Greece.

They're not just voting about their own fate. I think they're voting for millions of Europeans who are sick of austerity because it has hurt the

economy and it has led to debts even skyrocketing more.

HOLMES: We're running a little bit of time, so if you can be brief, but the question is what is your long-term prognosis for the Greek economy? Do

you see growth in the country's future? I mean, the truism of economics, it's can't grow of this abyss without growth and austerity's not going to

foster growth.

DE MASI: I think that Greece can very well grow if you put the conditions in place for them to grow. So we have seen through austerity, for example,

investment decreasing by 60 percent. And you will not see enterprises invest if they cannot expect some stability, first of all. If those deals

and negotiations go on for any longer, nobody will invest.

Secondly, companies will not invest if wages, if pensions are permanently declining because then nobody has the money to buy any of those products.

So I think Greece has the potential to grow. It's a wonderful country. But it needs to build a solid infrastructure. And yes, Greece needs

structural reforms. But different structural reforms, structural reforms that help the corporations to develop markets instead of hurting the

majority of the population.

HOLMES: I want to thank Fabio De Masi, a German member of the European parliament, joining us there from Brussels, thank you so much, sir.

Now after a break, we're going to cross the sea to Italy, exposing crime and paying the

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price for doing so. I speak to Gomorrah author Robert Saviano from shining a light on Italy's criminal underworld to exposing the international drug

trade in his new book, "ZeroZeroZero." That's next.

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HOLMES: Welcome back to the program. I'm Michael Holmes, in for Christiane today.

Now my next guest lives in fear and is in hiding, unable to travel alone or trust anyone around him. It is the high price that Roberto Saviano has

paid for daring to expose one of the most dangerous and powerful criminal gangs in the world, the Camorra, otherwise known as the Naples mafia. In

2006, he wrote a book about his time infiltrating the gang. The book is called "Gomorrah." It became an international best seller and was made

into a film backed by Martin Scorsese. But it also led to a life of death threats and 24-hour police protection for years.

Saviano now has a new book out, "ZeroZeroZero," about the international cocaine industry. He joined me a short time ago from London.

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HOLMES: Roberto Saviano, thanks for being on the program. I want to get to your latest book in a moment. But we really have to start with the

impact of "Gomorrah."

And I wanted to, for the viewers, read a quote from you on how your life has been and it is this, "For the last eight years, I have traveled

everywhere with seven trained bodyguards in two bulletproof cars. I live in police barracks or anonymous hotel rooms and rarely spend more than a

few nights in the same place. It has been more than eight years since I took a train or rode a Vespa, took a stroll or went out for a beer."

You've been living this life; for those of us who haven't, give us some sense of what it is like for you every day.

ROBERTO SAVIANO, AUTHOR (through translator): It's very difficult, learning how to live under armed guard. I was 26 when I first started. I

didn't even really know what was happening. I had written a book of a very powerful criminal organization, the Camorra in Naples and went into

protection because I was threatened publicly during a process on behalf of a lawyer who was representing two big bosses of the Camorra.

Everything you do, from that moment on, I had to -- decided to free a still advance. I'm here today but I decided to come here one month in advance.

I'm always escorted by the police.

HOLMES: I'm curious what the most surprising thing you discovered about the international drugs trade. Was there anything that leapt out at you

that was a true shock?

SAVIANO (through translator): First, huge economic impact. If I invest $1,000 in an important organization, one who may produce computers, after

one year, I will have $1,400

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or $1,600. If I invest $1,000 in cocaine, after one year, I would have $182,000. Its huge capacity and multiplying profits ensures that these

organizations can be likened to the big oil companies. In fact, in jargon, cocaine is called "white oil."

HOLMES: As we've established, you live your life under armed protection and I think you've dedicated the book, "ZeroZeroZero" to some of your

bodyguards who protect you.

I'm curious; after all you've been through why you decided to write it, asking for more trouble perhaps.

Or do you figure you couldn't possibly have more trouble than you do now, so why not write it?

SAVIANO (through translator): I'm really not sure if it was a noble sentiment. But I did it for revenge, personal revenge. I wanted to say

and shout it out loud, you haven't stopped me. I took stories and analyzed documents and the rage and I transformed this into a story which could

reach an audience who think they may know what this is all about and then discovers there's something hidden underneath and to people who've never

heard about these stories before. That was my main intent. I'm really not sure. Maybe I should have let it go. But right now, I try to resist. And

I'm trying to remember that. They didn't manage to keep me quiet.

HOLMES: I have to ask you, as others have before, because it's an obvious question, do you regret anything? Has all of this been worth it?

SAVIANO (through translator): I would really like to respond in a heroic manner. I would like to give you the right answer. I will try to tell you

no. I would do it all again. But that's going to be the truth. I do resent it. But I try not to go backwards. I would have done things in

another way. I don't think I will ever be able to forgive myself for ruining the life of the people close to me. I'm not really sure if it was

all worth it. Is it really worth it to squander your youth? Is it really worth it to have your mother and brother be in pain? It's a difficult

question. Taking a step back, of course you can say it's a great idea. But once you get into the nitty-gritty of things, it is really difficult to

answer. I'm not taking a step back. I do believe that however if an angel were to appear in front of me and say, would you do it all again, I would

say no. I'd do everything completely differently.

HOLMES: It might seem a bit of a non sequitur but we've been coverage the crisis in Greece, the economic crisis there.

Do you think that organized crime impacts the financial state of a country like Greece -- and other European nations for that matter?

SAVIANO (through translator): Organized crime, corruption, of course it has an impact on Greece. It has bled it dry. It has used this as a

continuous money laundering country. Tsipras and Europe of course should start discussing about this topic. The Greece crisis is a way of giving

the country over to mafia organizations. And any revival in Greece cannot continue without first tackling this problem, by changing legislation, by

demanding from Europe an anti-mafia legislation. There is nothing like this in England, in France, in Germany. We do not have the resources to

tackle the biggest economy, the economy of crime.

HOLMES: On that note, Roberto Saviano, thank you so much for sharing your story us with us today. Thank you.

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HOLMES: And from one man's mission to expose the world's criminal underbelly, we're going to go to another's effort to highlight an act of

hidden bravery. We imagine a world where hotel staff become heroes. That's next.

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HOLMES: Finally tonight, imagine a world where those who serve you end up saving you. As Tunisia's terror attacker began his rampage that killed 38

people last week, hotel workers defied their own survival instincts and ran towards the gunman to help guests in danger.

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Three men ran towards him. He said, I don't (INAUDIBLE). We couldn't leave him. Yes, we were scared, terrified. But we couldn't (INAUDIBLE).

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HOLMES: After the attack, they returned to work, comforting the people who were once clients, now survivors. And despite their courage and their

compassion, those workers now face losing their livelihoods perhaps because 90 percent of the guests are leaving the hotel. Now one English tourist

who's trying to help some of those unsung heroes starting a fund to raise $1,500 for the staff, a modest sum. But in less than a day, the collection

surpassed that figure and continues to climb up and up as contributors are determined not to let that attack ruin the lives of their saviors.

And that is it for our program tonight. But a quick note before we go. Tomorrow Christiane will be taking your questions on Reddit. That's at

10:30 am Eastern Time in the United States, 3:30 pm in London.

Do join her for that. And remember you can always see the whole program online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Twitter @HolmesCNN. Thanks,

everyone, for watching. Goodbye for now from Atlanta.

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