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Amanpour
Greece's Former Divisive Finance Minister Speaks; Holocaust Survivor Helps Syrian Refugees; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired July 20, 2015 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: in his first international television interview, the former Greek finance minister,
Yanis Varoufakis, joins the program live. He's sure the latest bailout will fail and I'll ask him if he takes any responsibility.
Also ahead: helping Syrian Christians escape the horror of ISIS. The Jewish peer, Lord George Weidenfeld, on repaying a debt and why he was
compelled to do something.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LORD GEORGE WEIDENFELD, FOUNDER, OPERATION SAFE HAVENS: There never has been in history -- perhaps in the history of the Stone Age, I don't
know -- a cruelty that demonstrated so obviously as ISIS has.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
For the first time in three weeks, today Greeks are able to walk into a bank. The doors may be open but they can still only withdraw 422 euros
per week and they still can't send money abroad.
And for the first time in a long time, Greece was declared not in default to the IMF. But implementing its creditors' demands, VAT soared
today on foods like milk and meat and commuters are paying more for public transport.
Plenty of Greeks are unhappy with the changes and Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras is now facing a revolt within his own party.
Now to mollify his European creditors, Tsipras earlier this month had dismissed his flamboyant finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis, whose leather
jackets, casual style and motorcycle arrivals won him plaudits and fans and newspaper covers; his financial style rubbed his counterparts the wrong
way, however.
Now out of government but still an MP, Yanis Varoufakis joins me live for his first international television interview since stepping down.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Mr. Varoufakis, welcome back to the program.
YANIS VAROUFAKIS, GREEK FINANCE MINISTER: Thank you very much, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: So after all that I just recounted there and after all that's happened, are you glad you're no longer in the firing line?
VAROUFAKIS: Well, right from the outset, I stated for the record that I didn't want to be a politician. I sort of -- I was always a reluctant
member of this cabal, which is the field of politics. I felt that I had a duty to be of assistance to the prime minister in a very difficult juncture
and to contribute towards ending what has been an atrocious case of extending and pretending a state insolvency of over five years.
AMANPOUR: Right now, as we've just said, there is a whole new bailout; there's -- you know, all of this is underway with its attendant
reforms and demands on the Greek government.
Is it solved? Is it sorted? We did just talk about a revolt within the party.
What exactly is happening in the party headquarters?
VAROUFAKIS: Well, let us separate what's happening in the party from what's happening to the country and to the economy and to the Eurozone
economy as a whole.
You asked whether things have been sorted out. Exactly the opposite. The problem, Christiane, over the last five years is, beginning with 2010,
is that Greece became insolvent. And the powers that be in Europe -- and with the IMF, I have to add -- in their great, infinite wisdom decided to
do what really bankers do when they face somebody with a bad debt, to give him another loan in order to extend the bankruptcy to the future while
pretending that it's gone away.
So what we've had now is yet another such case of extending and pretending and turning out the internal political scene here to our -- to a
party, I think that the vast majority of my colleagues in Syriza, the governing party, are despondent and they're despondent because we were not
elected in order to give that wheel of extending and pretending another twirl.
AMANPOUR: And that's -- therein lies the whole conundrum. You're elected to do X; you had a referendum, where the people said they wanted
you to do X. And now you're doing Y.
Do you take any responsibility for how this whole thing has just turned almost full circle and you're back to practically worse off than you
were in the beginning?
VAROUFAKIS: Christiane, I would love to be able to say to you that I messed up and it's all my fault.
[14:05:00]
VAROUFAKIS: But let me actually correct something you said at the beginning. You said that I was dismissed by the prime minister; I wasn't.
On the night of the referendum, I resigned. And I resigned precisely because of what you said, that the people voted "no" to this extending and
pretending. But it became abundantly clear to me on the night of the referendum that the government's position was going to be to say yes to it.
And therefore, it's very hard for me -- well, however much I would like to -- to take responsibility for a policy over which I resigned.
AMANPOUR: Do you think you messed up at all?
VAROUFAKIS: There were mistakes, of course. It takes incredible obstinacy to argue that one has not made mistakes, especially during a
five-month period of extremely intense negotiations against creditors, who were not particularly interested in having a rational bargaining session, a
rational negotiation.
We made mistakes. There's no doubt about that and I hold myself responsible for a number of them. But the truth of the matter, Christiane,
is that a very powerful troika of creditors were not interested in coming to a sensible, honorable, mutually beneficial agreement.
That if you look at the way that they have behaved, from the very first day, we assumed power on the 25th of January, to the last week or so,
I think that close inspection is going to reveal the truth of what I'm saying.
They were far more interested in humiliating this government and overthrowing it or at least making sure that it overthrows itself in terms
of its policy, than they were interested in an agreement that would, for instance, ensure that they would get most of their money back.
The way that they have conducted themselves was a major assault on the very basis of rationality and European integration.
AMANPOUR: Let me just ask you this about overthrowing the government. We've heard from the other side that Prime Minister Tsipras said to try to
convince people to keep this government in power, look, you've got to vote for this, no matter how much it stinks. You've got to vote for it because
this is the only way to keep a leftist government in power in Greece after so many years.
So his was also political, right?
VAROUFAKIS: Well, look, Prime Minister Tsipras was faced with an incredibly hard choice when he went to the Euro Summit a week ago or so.
He was faced with a choice: commit suicide or be executed, effectively. And that is a major stigma on economic history and European history.
No government should ever be treated that way in the context of a collaborative democratic nations. At that point, just because it was such
a hard choice, the arguments were equally powerful on both sides. Alexis Tsipras decided that it would be best for the Greek people, for this
government to stay put and to implement a program which the very same government disagrees with.
People like me thought that it would be more honorable and in the long term more appropriate for us to resign.
That's why I resigned.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you --
VAROUFAKIS: But I recognize his arguments as being equally powerful as mine.
AMANPOUR: -- let me ask you, you mentioned IMF and other euro leaders, et cetera.
Obviously there was a lot of name flinging around. You've just done a little bit of it tonight, but there was a lot of name slinging and
mudslinging all along. Christine Lagarde said that there should be more adults in the room.
You used extremely strong language to describe Europe, from July 4th with the Spanish magazine, you said, "What they're doing with Greece has a
name: terrorism."
And 10 days later, in a post, you said, "The recent Euro Summit is indeed nothing short of the culmination of a coup."
It did get awfully -- I mean, you still think that?
I mean, in other words, is this any way to negotiate over such a serious thing, with everybody slinging mud at each other?
VAROUFAKIS: Well, you may have noticed if you looked closely that between the January 25th and the coup that I have described, you never
heard one cross word from me regarding the other side, the negotiating team of the other side. Indeed, we were baiting them. We were bombarding them
with reasonableness, with courtesy and politeness. That wasn't the case from their side.
But, Christiane, let me put it very succinctly for you. They shut down our banks because we had the audacity to put an ultimatum that they
gave us to the Greek people, to deliver their verdict. Now that is a coup d'etat. It is a wholesome, a wholesale undemocratic move within the
context of the European Union.
AMANPOUR: But even though --
VAROUFAKIS: At the same time, you know, when you close --
AMANPOUR: -- yes --
VAROUFAKIS: -- how do you sing?
[14:10:00]
AMANPOUR: I'm sorry to interrupt, but even your closest allies and friends, I mean, people like Paul Krugman, who all along said you can't
just shove something down the Greeks' throats, said that perhaps there was a better way of doing.
Listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL KRUGMAN, ECONOMIST: They thought they could simply demand better terms without having any backup plan. So certainly this is a shock. But
you know, in some sense, it's hopeless in any case. I mean, the new terms are even worse but the terms that -- what they were being offered before
were still not going to work. So I may have overestimated the competence of the Greek government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: See, so that's a pretty important thing he said at the end.
"I may have overestimated the competence of the Greek government."
You were sitting there in the main chair.
VAROUFAKIS: Well, let me say that I agree entirely with Paul, entirely, however shocking that may sound to you.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: -- confidence?
VAROUFAKIS: -- plan B.
Well, let me answer. It's not true we did not have a plan B. We had a plan B. We, in the ministry of finance, developed it under the aegis of
the prime minister, who ordered us to do this, even before we came into the ministry of finance.
Of course you realize that these plans, plans B, are always by definition highly imperfect because they have to be kept within a very
small circle of people; otherwise, if they leak, then a self-fulfilling prophecy emerges.
The problem was that once our banks were shut, the government decided not to effect, not to put into effect this plan B. And the plan B wouldn't
-- make no mistake, this was not a plan for getting Greece out of the euro. But it was a plan for creating euro-denominated liquidity in order to give
us more increase of freedom and more bargaining power once our banks were shut down.
The fact of the matter is that that plan B was not energized. I didn't get the green light to effect it; to push a button, if you want.
And if you want, one of the main reasons why I resigned was precisely that.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you a final question because just as we think a bailout is coming to rescue Greece, people are still talking about a
Grexit, including -- perhaps especially -- the Germans. Now both Merkel and her finance minister are -- that word is still in the atmosphere.
Do you think that will happen? And will that be best for Greece?
VAROUFAKIS: Well, no fragmentation of the Eurozone, no Grexit can ever be good for Europe. And if it can't be good for Europe, it can't be
for Greece. There is no doubt that Dr. Schauble has his sights set on a Grexit. It's part of his strategy; I've written articles about this. He's
told me so; I've discussed it with him.
I'm not so sure about Chancellor Merkel. But the main point to remember is that Europe has brought itself to a great deal of disrepute.
Think about it, Christiane. We have a Greek government which is coming to Greek parliament and is saying to the parliamentarians, its own
parliamentarians, here's a plan. Here is an agreement. We don't believe in it but we'll try to implement it to sustain power.
And at the same time, Dr. Schauble and Ms. Merkel go to the Bundestag, the federal parliament in Berlin, and they say, here is a deal for Greece.
We don't believe in it. We don't think it's going to work.
What has Europe done to itself?
AMANPOUR: A good question indeed. And we will continue to follow it.
Yanis Varoufakis, thank you very much indeed for joining us tonight.
VAROUFAKIS: Thank you, Christiane.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: So divisions, as you hear, still stalk Europe. But on the other side of the world, a reunion that many thought impossible.
For the first time in 54 years, the United States has opened its embassy in Havana, Cuba, and in Washington, Cuba's flag was raised over its
embassy once again. The flag was dramatically lowered on January 3rd, 1961, when relations broke off.
And after a break, the past informs the present. Lord Weidenfeld tells me how escaping the Nazis as a little boy made him want to help those
facing the same today. Syria's Christians and their Jewish guardian angel -- next.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
The British Prime Minister David Cameron has unveiled new plans to tackle Islamic extremism here in the U.K., calling it, quote, "the struggle
of our generation," and he warned Britons not to be lured by ISIS.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID CAMERON, PRIME MINISTER, GREAT BRITAIN: Here's my message to any young person here in Britain thinking of going out there. You won't be
some valued member of a movement. You are cannon fodder for them. They will use you.
If you are a boy, they will brainwash you, strap bombs to your body and blow you up. If you are a girl, they will enslave and abuse you.
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AMANPOUR: So the prime minister's address comes as his government debates whether to start bombing ISIS targets in Syria as well as in Iraq.
Now a five-year war in Syria has forced more than 10 million people from their homes.
What can one person do about this massive humanitarian crisis? Whatever he can.
My next guest, the publisher, Lord George Weidenfeld, came to the U.K. as a young Jewish refugee in the 1930s. Christians here helped him flee
the Nazis and they raised him in their own home.
Today he's giving back, financing an operation to airlift persecuted Christians out of Syria. The first group of refugees have already arrived
in Poland.
Now the 95-year-old benefactor is crystal clear about the moral obligation to fight ISIS and its brutal extremism.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) AMANPOUR: Lord Weidenfeld, welcome to the program.
WEIDENFELD: Lovely to be here.
AMANPOUR: You are doing something quite extraordinary. You have taken this upon yourself to try to rescue Syrian refugees.
Why is that?
WEIDENFELD: Well, really, there are two very related reasons. I was personally helped so much by a Christian sect of the Plymouth Brethren, a
radical evangelist system in England. I came as a penniless refugee throughout the Nazis in Austria 1938.
And these people, modest people, took me in as one of the family, gave me a chance to continue my studies and, on top of it, when my father, who
was still in jail in Austria -- a rather long story -- was sentenced temporarily, he, my parents, according to England, sent to them, because
they were -- gave me to the British authorities and said they were going to be prepared to finance them.
So they saved my parents' life and they made my life possible.
AMANPOUR: So here we have a beautiful picture of you with your mother and you in a way are giving thanks and repaying a debt.
Is that it?
WEIDENFELD: This is one of the reasons. That is a very important reason.
The other reason is the fact that I had this great privilege of getting to know Pope John Paul II, the Polish pope, because I was part of a
group of academics and intellectuals and --
AMANPOUR: And you published his autobiography.
WEIDENFELD: -- I published the autobiography.
And he had shown great interest and great concern about the fate of the Jews.
You know, he said to me once, you know, in my waking hours as a young priest in Krakow, I could hear somehow the moaning of the Auschwitz victims
2 kilometers away.
AMANPOUR: Pope John Paul II said the Jews are the elder brother of the Christians.
WEIDENFELD: Of the Christians, yes.
AMANPOUR: What do you think of or what do you see when you see the plight of the Syrians today?
Do you see the terrible plight of the Jews under the Nazis?
What do you see?
(CROSSTALK)
WEIDENFELD: Well, I think it's the worst thing that's ever happened because of a cruelty and almost a sort of carnal pleasure taking in the
cruelty, you know, -- I mean, as a sort of amateur historian, I can tell you there has never been in history -- perhaps in the history of the Stone
Age, I don't know -- a cruelty that demonstrated so obviously as ISIS has in its territory and other movements, too, but particularly ISIS.
And I thought something had to be done.
[14:20:00]
AMANPOUR: Why do you think ISIS is more cruel that what the Nazis did?
WEIDENFELD: The Nazis looked at destruction almost like an industrial project, you know, 6 million there, 4 million here, 3 million there. And
so some of the nastiest things were done by the so-called TBs (ph), the auxiliaries from other countries.
They thought in these sort of general terms. I don't know whether you've seen "Schindler's List," the film on this, Nazi leader totally
unmoved, would simply say, well, we get rid of another 50,000 so.
The ISIS people do it with pleasure. They get a pleasure of demanning (ph), people, doing unmentionable things, which I won't --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: So you see a real sadism there?
WEIDENFELD: Oh, yes, I think they're the worst that's ever happened.
AMANPOUR: Why is it that you're only trying to rescue Christians?
And we are talking about only 2,000 families.
WEIDENFELD: Well, look, I'm not in a position to save Christianity altogether. I want to focus on something that I can, with great difficulty
and great effort, achieve. I can't simply say I am the savior of all Christians and Muslims.
I have tremendous sympathy for Muslim victims. Make no mistake about that.
But there's one really important difference of us, too. One is there's an enormous amount of money in the Muslim world, individual money
and, of course, money of regimes like the Qatars and (INAUDIBLE), et cetera, is one thing.
The other thing is logistical problems. There are some problems with Muslims in, say, ISIS or wherever it is, that could be shifted a few
hundred kilometers away. But if the Christians were to find safe havens, God knows, at the other end of the Earth, you see.
AMANPOUR: At the time, Jewish refugees who were fleeing the Nazis were famously turned away -- America, Canada, others, turned around the
famous ship --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: -- people didn't get to --
WEIDENFELD: -- there is a question of enlightenment, of propaganda, of public relations, of publicity, all this has to be done.
But fortunately also examples of great generosity, like the Poles and I believe the Czechs, too, (INAUDIBLE) the Czech government and they are
going to be also very forthcoming.
And of course certainly -- but I mean, I can quite understand some European governments or even the United States government faced with the
problem of taking in bodies; again, it's a problem in itself.
But you have to think seriously what they're doing that, look, in Europe, half a dozen countries have Christian democratic, Christian social,
Christian this and that government. That seems to be irony that they would say we can't take any Christians in.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you to comment, if you would, you are a member of the British establishment. You're a member of the Jewish elite here.
What was your reaction when you saw "The Sun" newspaper, this weekend?
And we saw the picture of the Queen Mother and Queen Elizabeth doing that salute, obviously -- obviously, she was Princess Elizabeth at 6 years
old.
Did you see that in the paper?
(CROSSTALK)
WEIDENFELD: Well, I think it is a disgusting thing to publicize this, it's a completely harmless thing. I can see as a group of bearded Jews, a
joke, sitting at the (INAUDIBLE) in other words, that's ridiculous to make this public and as an issue it's getting quite ridiculous.
AMANPOUR: And finally, and of all the things you've done, whether it's escape the Nazis, setting up Weidenfeld & Nicolson, I don't know,
publishing "Lolita," being the chief of staff to the first president of Israel, Chaim Weizmann, of all the things you've done, what you like to be
most remembered for?
WEIDENFELD: Well, I would like to be most remembered for my continued loyal work for Israel. You see, I have sort of three loyalties and I live
comfortably with all three.
My first loyalty is to my family in the wider sense, a tribal loyalty, with Israel, the Jewish people.
My second loyalty is to Great Britain, who gave me shelter and a wonderful chance at developing.
And the third chance -- the third loyalty is a bit difficult to define. It's a devotion to European Western culture, transmitted to me in
the German language as a boy and therefore I have a great feeling for Germany. And even in the worst periods I differentiated between the real
German people and the Nazis.
AMANPOUR: Lord Weidenfeld, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
WEIDENFELD: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And for more information, go to the Barnabas Fund website, which is barnabasfund.org.
Now from the many battles and many front lines against extremism in World War II, next we imagine a world literally unearthed from that time,
the war tunnels recently discovered in the white cliffs of Dover -- that's next.
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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world very deep beneath the earth where history comes to light more than half a century after it took
place, under Britain's iconic white cliffs of Dover, a hidden labyrinth of World War II tunnels open to the public today.
Three years ago, the National Trust here bought the land and then discovered the secret tunnels, which are 23 meters beneath the surface.
They defended the English coast and about 200 service men could bunk up there during World War II.
Wartime tunnels are endlessly fascinating and now busy tourist destinations, like Vietnam's Cu Chi tunnels, once home and headquarters to
the Vietcong, whose fighters and their families stayed there. And today many of them are guides and they relish telling visitors how they defeated
the Americans with their secret raids.
And in Sarajevo, this wartime tunnel dug under the airport was a vital lifeline for the besieged city and its defenders, 800 meters long, it
enabled food and fuel and weapons to get in.
Today, digging up a wartime past and putting it on display.
That's it for our program tonight. And remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and
Twitter. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.
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