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Refugees Blocked from Passing through Hungary; German Military Gives Beds for Refugees; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired September 16, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: from Berlin, Germany opens government and military facilities to shelter refugees while

Hungary uses tear gas and water cannon against them at the border. Reaction to that from the German defense minister.

URSULA VON DER LEYEN, GERMAN DEFENSE MINISTER: This is not acceptable and this is against the European rules we do have. Therefore, it is very

important that we really stick to respect what human dignity and human rights are concerned.

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PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And I'm Paula Newton at CNN Center. We will go live to the Hungarian-Serbian border for the latest on the

violence condemned by the German defense minister.

Also ahead on this program, in the ring for round two. U.S. Republican candidates gear up for a debate showdown.

Can any of them trump the Trump?

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NEWTON: Good evening and welcome to the program. I'm Paula Newton, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.

Dramatic and distressing scenes on Serbia's border with Hungary after Hungarian riot police fired water cannon and tear gas on refugees who tried

to break through a closed-off border crossing.

Tension erupted when refugees, many who had traveled all the way from Syria and Afghanistan for weeks and months, found the crossing shut and

started throwing stones in frustration. Women and children were among those teargassed.

I'm joined now on the phone from Washington by Serbian Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic.

Mr. Vucic, thank you for joining us. We have been trying to talk to you now for a few hours. We understand you are in Washington on other

business.

Hungary had called on your authorities to try and do something at that border point, to try to calm the situation.

What can you tell us now about what you have instructed your authorities to do at that border?

ALEKSANDAR VUCIC, SERBIAN PRIME MINISTER: Good afternoon. I think that I did not hear you, Paula.

NEWTON: What have you instructed your authorities to do, Prime Minister Vucic, on that border?

VUCIC: (INAUDIBLE) Serbia. And I feel a need to concern that I do worry a lot about the recent situation, about the recent activities of

(INAUDIBLE) close to the border with Serbia, and we just need the European Union -- that we need to know what we are going to do in the next hours,

next days, because Serbia fulfills all its obligations.

As the first country on the way of those refugees from Syria through Turkey, Greece, Macedonia through Serbia, that register those people, that

need medical screenings, medical treatment, they've treated them in a very good, human and tolerant way.

And all those refugees were very satisfied with their treatment in our country. And we, of course, offered an overnight or several night stay for

those people. But they wanted to go further away. They wanted to leave our country. They wanted to reach not Hungary but Austria, Germany and

some other Scandinavian countries.

The whole problem is just the place that Serbia is positioned and our problem is that our neighbors erected -- they built a fence, a wall of

barbed wire.

And now what we are part of a problem although we acted in a very proper way, in a very European way and what we are waiting for right now is

a comprehensive European solution and comprehensive European reaction.

And that's what's going to raise as an issue with the secretary of state, John Kerry, which I'm going to meet within 10 minutes. You know,

it's a huge embarrassment for Serbia also. Being this has been (INAUDIBLE) that is (INAUDIBLE).

I don't know what to say (INAUDIBLE) very (INAUDIBLE), who is be able to speak to our Hungarian colleagues. But you know, someone has to say

what is European attitude, what is European position, what is European stand on that and will deliver on it. But we need to see what we should do

because we did everything in accordance with the European law, with the European values.

Now we are kind of victim of -- we don't know why and we don't know what would be the reason for such a reaction. And we don't know what will

happen --

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-- in the future.

NEWTON: Prime Minister Vucic, we appreciate you checking in with us. We will continue to see what happens there on the ground. And we will

check back in with you in the coming days.

As you heard Prime Minister Vucic say there, they are looking for European leadership. He is just about to enter a meeting in Washington

with U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry. He has already put the issue in Europe on the agenda.

We move now to the front lines of the crisis, to the heart of the nation trying to handle it. We go to Berlin after a break, where the

German defense minister has been speaking with our Christiane Amanpour. We will have her interview.

But in the meantime, we have now been back to the border with Hungary and Serbia, where, again, we find our Ben Wedeman, who has been out there

for several hours.

Ben, what can you tell us about the situation? You heard the Serbian prime minister saying, look, we're just caught in the middle of all this.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Actually, now the situation is very calm. It calmed down when the Serbian police showed

up, about 30 officers. They are now deployed at the gate between Serbia and Hungary and keeping refugees and migrants back. So the situation has

stabilized.

Now it's evening and trucks have shown up to hand out supplies, hand out clothing. There's also a bus or two ready to take people to a nearby

refugee camp, where they have been told they will be put up for the night and they will be provided with transportation to the Croatian border, if

they so desire to move in that direction, because, certainly what we saw today with these clashes between the Hungarian police and the migrants and

the refugees sent a fairly clear message that Hungary is not likely to change its hardline stance in terms of allowing in these people to go on

their way, because most of them, as they will readily tell you, have no interest in going to Hungary. They want to go to Germany, they want to go

to Austria, they want to go to Sweden.

So at the moment, the situation has calmed down. And I think many people are now considering other possibilities rather than passing through

Hungary -- Paula.

NEWTON: Yes. And one of those other possibilities is, of course, Croatia. They are trying to find alternate routes.

At the same time, Ben, we just spoke to the prime minister of Serbia, saying that, look, we are looking for European leadership on this.

If we deal with the next few hours, those migrants, those refugees need food, they need some sleep.

How tuned in are they to look for, OK, is Europe going to do something; if we go through Croatia, are we going to be welcomed there?

How much information are they getting about what their next possible out could be?

WEDEMAN: Those who are lucky enough to have smartphones that actually work -- because, of course, it's hard to get power to get them running --

but they are looking into the possibilities.

In fact, right next to me is a group of people sitting around a charger, charging their cellphones.

And they are talking about, should we go to Croatia?

If we go to Croatia, can we get through to Slovenia and carry on north to Austria and to Germany?

So people are very aware of the political situation. But in terms of the mechanics of on the ground, how do you get from here to the Croatian

border? What happens when you cross over?

That's the sort of information they're desperate to find out and it's not altogether clear.

For instance, earlier, I ran into a woman who speaks -- who was speaking in Arabic. She was handing out this map to people who were

interested, showing that the route into Hungary is closed. And the blue arrow points you in the direction of Croatia and Slovenia.

So certainly there are people who are trying to encourage the refugees and the migrants to move on.

But given the fact that it's very expensive to move around here and they have already spent almost everything they have to get here, the

prospect of a possible route into Europe is something they can't just jump at. They have to really be confident that they're going somewhere, where

they will be well treated, they won't be gassed by police and they will be warmly welcomed.

That's something they want to know before they actually go there at this point, because they have come so far. They just have that little last

bit left to go. And they want to make sure it will lead to where they want to be.

NEWTON: And, quickly, Ben, do you have the sense that there are some people there that are going to stay for quite some time until that specific

border point opens?

WEDEMAN: Well, when they ask you how long is this going to continue, when or if the Hungarians will --

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-- open the gate, I say, a day or two, maybe tomorrow. And clearly from what we're seeing here is that it's not going to open. Hungarian

government has been, if nothing else, quite explicit that they have no intention of changing their policy.

Now, of course, we heard them say on our air that, oh, there are ways if you want to request asylum or refugee status in Hungary. It's possible.

In fact, about 700 meters up the border from here, there's a caravan on the border with a small white door. If you go in, you can make an application.

But what happens is that most people are rejected because Hungary's attitude, from the beginning of this crisis, is that once you are out of

Syria or Afghanistan or Iraq, you are in a safe country if you are sitting in a refugee camp in Turkey, for instance. Greece is a safe country.

Macedonia is a safe country.

So the Hungarian argument is all of these people, refugees, migrants, are simply doing it for economic reasons, a presumption that doesn't go

down very well here, obviously.

NEWTON: No, especially not, considering their emotional and physical state.

Our Ben Wedeman, who has been there all day for us, following the dramatic events on that border, Ben, thanks so much.

And we will be right back with more of AMANPOUR when we return.

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NEWTON: Welcome back. I'm Paula Newton in for Christiane Amanpour.

Hungarian police have used tear gas and water cannon against refugees, including women and children, as they close their border with Serbia.

Now with that route now shut, many refugees are seeking new routes to the E.U. and are heading into Croatia, where, today, it said it would open

its doors to anyone who wants to transit through.

Now many of the refugees are trying to reach countries further north, in particular, Germany.

Christiane is in Berlin and just conducted this exclusive interview with the country's defense minister.

AMANPOUR: Thanks, Paula.

And here at the defense ministry in Berlin, I spoke to the minister herself, who explained how Germany is opening military barracks; how she's

deploying soldiers and other army personnel to help with all sorts of logistics to house these refugees, because so many of the official shelters

are already unable to cope anymore.

I sat down with her for an exclusive interview a short while ago.

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AMANPOUR: Minister von der Leyen, Welcome to the program.

VON DER LEYEN: Thank you very much.

AMANPOUR: Your reaction to what Hungary is doing to the refugees, there's tear gas, there's all sorts of practically battles at the Hungarian

border.

VON DER LEYEN: This is not acceptable. And this is against the European rules we do have. Therefore, it is very important that we really

stick to the respect, what human dignity and human rights are concerned and the refugees have a right to be treated decent. And this is something

where we really have a lot to discuss in Europe.

AMANPOUR: We meet at a time when there seems to be serious crisis in this country.

Are you overwhelmed by the influx of refugees?

VON DER LEYEN: Well, the numbers are humongous. And it's an enormous national challenge we are facing.

But I wouldn't say overwhelmed because we are decided and determined to really manage that. And to get to our goal to give --

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-- those people really need asylum shelter.

AMANPOUR: How do you do that?

And explain how long the border is going to be closed or controlled, as you call it, because there is the -- the chancellor had to backtrack,

first saying everybody is welcome and then, sooner perhaps than she thought, saying, actually, hold on a little bit.

VON DER LEYEN: Well, the first thing she said, like 10 days ago, was not everybody is welcome. But those who are -- were refugees and fleeing

civil war and terror and those who need political asylum.

It is our principal that they have to get shelter and to get asylum here in Germany. So she was very clear about that. That's a matter of

human dignity and human rights.

And we did not close down the borders, but we control by now because these humongous numbers, these huge numbers of refugees coming into the

country, we have to get back into an order so that we can manage the task really to distribute them to the different federal states and to really put

them in the place where they need to be.

AMANPOUR: What is the army doing?

We read that barracks are being turned over to refugees as shelters; even the chancellor herself said that 40,000 refugees would be housed in

government property, 800 new personnel hired or deployed to look after them.

Where are you putting them now? Because you have run out of shelters.

VON DER LEYEN: Well, yes, we help wherever we can with the army, with the armed forces. For example, we are providing 20,000 beds in rooms where

refugees can stay within the barracks. We will be providing even more, 45,000.

And of course we can provide a lot of personnel, just of whatever you can think, except of police tasks. We can do everything like medical help,

like transport, logistics, whatever you can think of.

So I offer to the federal states the help of the armed forces wherever they need them as helping hands.

AMANPOUR: There are some heads of federal states who don't like this one little bit. They are saying, it was too much. You have opened the

floodgates. We can't cope. And there's some backlash. There are neo-Nazi groups every day torching shelters. Doesn't get much media play but it's

happening.

How serious is that?

Can you cope with that?

And might there be a rise, a big wave of backlash?

VON DER LEYEN: I think we can and we will cope with that because the overwhelming majority of the population is very positive about it and is

determined to welcome the refugees.

Of course, we have to be clear about that we are going to have a long and difficult journey ahead of us. We have to invest a lot into the

refugees, where schooling is concerned, housing, putting them to work and all that stuff.

There will be frustration and things like that. But the goal is really to stick to our principles. And as we have the backing of the

majority of the population, I think we are going to manage that.

AMANPOUR: Over the last several days, there has been a lot of movement by Russian forces and equipment into Syria. The United States has

said we don't like this. Stop doing it. What is it all for?

Russian president says that we're helping; by helping Assad we are preventing even more refugees coming to Europe.

Do you buy that?

VON DER LEYEN: I think, first of all, it has to be clear there is a broad alliance against terror, against ISIS. And if Russia will join this

alliance against terror, Russia is welcome. But what has to be clear, that we need a common consensus how to deal with ISIS, who are we going to

support and who we are not going to support. And this common sense or this consensus has to be found first.

AMANPOUR: Because the United States thinks that Russia shouldn't be deploying more and that it's actually helping Assad and it may say that

it's trying to fight terrorism but it's bolstering Assad.

Do you think that is wise?

Should Russia help Assad?

VON DER LEYEN: Well, as we know that there will be no long-term solution with Assad, this is difficult.

On the other hand, we all know in the fight against ISIS -- and specifically in Syria -- there will be no solution without Russia as well

as there will be no solution without Turkey or Iran or Saudi Arabia.

In other words, what I want to say is, if we really want to fight ISIS, we need the regional surrounding powers to really stick to that

common goal and not to push forward with the war in Syria from different sides but only playing their own interests.

AMANPOUR: What is your reaction to what Bashar al-Assad said today, that it's actually Western countries and their meddling in Syria that has

caused terrorism?

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VON DER LEYEN: Well, this is absolutely weird because we know in the past what Assad did to his -- specifically to his population. And we have

not forgotten that. And that makes it to so difficult within the situation because the Syrian population is kind of destroyed between Assad on the one

side and IS on other side. And this makes it really difficult.

AMANPOUR: I want to read you a couple of contributions from various German commentators; first of all, Foreign Minister Steinmeier has said

that we can't forget that we have to deal with this war. As long as this war continues, then these refugees are going to keep flooding out and we

have an open house policy.

But the bureau chief in Washington from "Die Welt" has said that actually your country is responding and reaping the results of its response

to this war, that inaction is just as much an action because it's caused the rise of Assad, the rise of ISIS and these refugees. Germany is really

reluctant, despite its humanitarian impulses, to get involved in ending the war.

Is it time to think about intervention to end the war?

VON DER LEYEN: Well, we have been deeply involved in the war against ISIS from the very beginning on. We joined the alliance against terror and

we started -- I have not forgotten, one year ago, ISIS was kind of slaughtering the Yazidis (ph) and was about to overrun the Northern Iraq.

That was a moment where Germany, for the first time since World War II, decided to send arms into a conflict region, to equip the Peshmerga, the

Kurdish armed troops, and to train them by now.

And actually, this has been a success because the Kurds have been able to fight back ISIS. So the illusion that ISIS is not defeatable has been

broken, which is good. And the Peshmerga have been able to protect the refugees, the Yazidis and many, many others. So we decided to concentrate

on that area to keep it stable, being grateful and knowing that others take over other tasks.

AMANPOUR: The United States has failed to do what it said it was going to do, which is train a moderate opposition to go in there and be

part of the ground forces. They are now saying or there are reports that perhaps they will deploy small groups of these so-called moderates, who

they have been perhaps training or not, with forces like the Peshmerga, who you are talking about.

You are a defense minister.

Do you really think this is going to be solved from the air or must there be a ground force against ISIS and Assad?

VON DER LEYEN: We need both. It's good to have the airstrikes, because at the very beginning specifically it helped a lot. You might

remember ISIS with large, huge tanks in the middle of the roads. So they could be beaten by airstrikes. But of course ISIS learned and kind of

disappeared within the Sunni population. Therefore, it is necessary to have ground troops.

But it would not be wise to have Western, foreign troops on the ground. But it's much better to have the local armed force trained and

equipped, as the Peshmerga example shows, to fight against ISIS. For that, we need the unity of the Iraq. Therefore, it's extremely important to also

talk to the Iraq government, what does happen.

And I think one of the next steps will be to go deeper into training of Iraq groups, whether be it Sunnis or Shia. And they are reliable and

sticking to the government. Because if you want a long lasting success, you need the local population to stand up against ISIS and to fight back

and to regain their own territory. That is extremely important.

If we switch to Syria, yes, it is way more difficult because there's almost no moderate opposition anymore. And therefore, as I said, what we

need first is a consensus of all the surrounding countries and interest groups, how to move forward, whom to support and how to unanimously fight

ISIS and not to have these isolated actions.

AMANPOUR: On that note, Minister Ursula Von Der Leyen, thank you so much indeed for joining us.

VON DER LEYEN: Thank you very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And today we also got a look at what the refugees are actually doing once they get here to Germany.

And here in Berlin, refugees from Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, so many of them fleeing wars, are queueing up to get their papers. They

come here every day.

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): And some have had to come back over and over for weeks now to register. We met some of them at the city's main

registration center this morning.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I am from Syria, Damascus. I come here. I want save life. That's what I want only.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Government of Germany, it's very good. No, it's good. Yes, because the government in Germany help all the people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Just some of the stories we are hearing from refugees here in Germany, as this country struggles to cope with this massive influx.

That's it for me in Berlin for now.

After a break, we will have a lot more from Paula Newton in Atlanta.

NEWTON: And thank you, Christiane.

And we will return to the refugees on the Hungarian-Serbian border. Some of the most striking images from today's shocking scenes. That's

right after this.

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NEWTON: And finally, we imagine the world of those refugees stuck on the Hungarian-Serbian border, men, women and children, only trying to find

safe haven.

Tonight, we leave with you some of the strongest images from today's emotional scenes. Thank you for watching and goodbye from CNN Center.

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