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Amanpour
Pope Francis' Visit to Cuba; ISIS Defectors Testify to Fear and Violence; Keeping Tabs on U.S. Spending in Afghanistan; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired September 21, 2015 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: the pope helped bring Cuba in from the cold but can he get the Castros to give the church
more space?
I'll ask the Vatican's ambassador to the United Nations, and also about the next papal stop, the United States of America.
Also ahead: tales of betrayal from the caliphate. ISIS defectors spill the unholy beans.
And remember Afghanistan?
It's no wonder people from there are joining the exodus to Europe. A top American official describes the violence and rampant corruption.
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
Pope Francis is taking Cuba by storm by celebrating mass with more than 100,000 people in the city of Holguin. On day two of his visit, just ahead
of his first-ever trip to the United States, the pope spoke about new diplomatic ties between the two countries which he helped to mediate.
In Cuba, the major challenge for the pope is how to promote human rights and revive Catholicism in a deep-rooted and officially atheist communist
country and, in the United States, how to stops Catholics leaving the church, millions of worshippers turned off by the sexual abuse scandal and
conservative stance on social values.
So as he prepares to address the United Nations General Assembly and become the first pope ever to speak to the U.S. Congress, I spoke to the Vatican's
ambassador to the United Nations about these pivotal times for the papacy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Archbishop Auza, welcome to the program.
BERNADITO AUZA, APOSTOLIC NUNCIO TO THE U.N.: Thank you, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you how important is it that it's the first time Pope Francis visits the United States, not just as pope but ever?
AUZA: For the pope, for this pope to visit the United States for the first time and Cuba, I think that really means a lot to him.
And as he said a number of times, even jokingly, you know, I must study now. I must try to learn what the American society is, the American people
are.
But he said, I'm sure that I will find a welcoming people.
AMANPOUR: Well, he's going to be probably walking a pretty fine line.
He has been responsible for brokerage this rapprochement between Cuba and the United States. But he has his work cut out for him with the Castros,
doesn't he?
He wants them to give the church more space in Cuba.
AUZA: But I believe so because that's really a part of the whole project. And so in, we might say, the right time arrived for the Catholic Church and
the pope himself. It's just so providential that this -- when the right time arrived, we might say it also, I think, included the fact that the
pope is from Latin America.
AMANPOUR: The pope, certainly being the archbishop of Buenos Aires and before that being a parish priest, he knew very, very well the effects of a
dictatorship in Latin America.
How do you think that informs his position in Cuba today?
AUZA: I think it has informed -- it has a fundamental role in how he perceives things and how he's convinced that things should turn out.
And the Catholic Church also, I think, has learned a lot -- the Holy See has learned a lot from what went in Eastern Europe, with the Communist
countries, that these changes are, indeed, possible without shedding blood or without chaos.
So that's, I think, the fundamental conviction of the pope, that we should do this.
AMANPOUR: He's spoken very clearly about human rights. But he hasn't met with any of the human rights dissidents in Cuba.
Why not?
AUZA: We do not know what's going behind the scenes. So I cannot answer that question as of now. I think we have to -- I would have to check the
facts.
But it's a part of the whole process of not forcing things. You know, the Catholic Church in Cuba has been for years, for more than a dozen years at
least, for the case, if I must say, have been promoting, you know, training people on how to run small businesses and how to do accounting and other
things, et cetera, all these things.
So it's been, in a sense, playing a role on how to prepare these people for any chance, so that's part of our hope. And the whole overall project of
building a society that will be ready for change without, we might say, without chaos, without just a peaceful change.
AMANPOUR: So coming to the --
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AMANPOUR: -- United States, he has his work cut out for him, because it's the fourth largest Catholic community in the world. And yet the Catholic
Church has been shedding millions and millions of churchgoers over the last several years, quite a dramatic drop-off.
There's a huge amount of goodwill and good feeling for Pope Francis.
How does he think he's going to get them back into the pews?
AUZA: Well, certainly it is not -- still the American church has been holding pretty well as compared to some European countries, I believe. But
indeed, you have underlined it rightly, that there is a huge challenge for the Catholic Church, not only in the United States but specifically the
United States in this case, ready to bring back these people to the fold.
AMANPOUR: Archbishop, one of the things that has shocked Catholics all over the world, as you very well know, is the sexual abuse and the cover-
up, especially the cover-ups.
And even now, although the pope has spoken about zero tolerance and has set up a special tribunal, even now there are very, very troubling reports that
the church is simply moving and replacing these priests from the United States, for instance, to Latin America and elsewhere, those who've had
serious charges and accusations leveled against him.
AUZA: Yes, I mean, I certainly -- that's a question, that's a very valid question but, you know, many, as you know, many of these cases which are
coming out now, I mean, even, you know, especially, most of the cases of -- the cases of abuse happened in the 1960s and '70s, above all into the
1980s.
I remember, when I was working in the Vatican -- and there has been so much progress in the -- in the -- in the rules and regulations of learning this
question in the local churches, not only at the level of the Vatican.
And, as you know, that there is the commission in that, that has been working with the Holy Father for some time now, since that's one of the
commissions he put up after he was elected.
So I could assure you that there has been progress in that. And if there are still cases coming up which happened in the past, I'm sure that the
Holy Father would act on that.
AMANPOUR: He has been so forward leaning on so many issues that people are saying, you know, there are some in the Democrats who might find what he
says difficult; there are some in the Republicans who might find what he says difficult.
How do you think he will walk the political line while he's in the United States?
AUZA: The only thing I could say about that is that, you know, these questions are burning issues, not only in the world but also in American
politics. These questions have really been burning in very important core values of the Catholic Church since time immemorial.
So if ever the pope says something of this and that, that would not really be -- it would be wrong to read them as Republican or Democrat.
I mean, you know, to talk about the environment we have that in Genesis already.
(LAUGHTER)
AUZA: If we talk about, you know, the question of migration and other questions, which are important to any political life in the world, then I
think the Holy Father, we would reasonably expect him to talk about those issues because we have always been talking about those issues.
But we hope that they would not be primarily seen as favoring or talking in favor of one or the other.
AMANPOUR: Thank you so much, Archbishop Bernadito Auza, thank you for joining us from the U.N. mission there.
AUZA: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Thank you.
AUZA: Thank you very much.
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AMANPOUR: And from saving souls to saving lives, a major new study shows volunteers now trying to flee the Islamic State. Defectors say it's all
just too horrible.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): We patrol the streets. If we saw a woman who was not wearing the proper sharia clothing, we'd grab her.
Sometimes they'd be lashed.
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AMANPOUR: Next I speak to the expert, Peter Neumann, about his new report.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
The testimony of foreign fighters lured into battle for ISIS is becoming all too familiar, singing the praises of a Muslim utopia -- or is it? The
caliphate is experiencing a wave of defections, people who say ISIS is killing rather than protecting Muslims.
But how much of a difference do these defections make on the battlefield?
The Institute of Radicalisation and Political Violence at King's College here in London monitors these militants and has collected the stories of 58
ISIS defectors. Peter Neumann wrote the report that gives a fascinating insight into this sect.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
PETER NEUMANN, THE INTERNATIONAL CENTRE FOR THE STUDY OF RADICALISATION AND POLITICAL VIOLENCE: Thank you, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: So these are not new defections but you have collated and analyzed what they're all saying.
What is the big takeaway?
NEUMANN: Exactly. So we knew that people were defecting from ISIS, but we didn't know exactly how big a phenomenon this was. So we started
collecting these stories.
We came up with 58 people, who have defected and who have spoken out against ISIS after leaving. The important thing here is that the number of
defections seems to be increasing.
Two-thirds of these defections were this year alone. One-third was only in the last three months, which, if anything, indicates that people are
perhaps feeling more confident in coming out but perhaps also that some of the shininess of the caliphate is wearing off and that some of the fault
lines are becoming obvious.
AMANPOUR: So let me put to you then some of these interviews that our Arwa Damon has collected, as well as our other correspondents.
But for instance, talking about defectors, she spoke to a man recently, who said the following:
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I saw a 70-year-old sheikh killed in front of me. The Islamic State can't continue like this. There are a
lot of youth who are joining, 14, 15 years old. Maybe my voice can make them think again.
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AMANPOUR: Well, that's the question.
Do you think defectors' voices will actually have, make an impression on those who are thinking of going or are already there?
NEUMANN: I think they could potentially be very powerful and that's for three or four reasons.
First of all, they are showing that the ISIS propaganda is not true, that there are a lot of contradictions, there are a lot of promises that they
don't keep.
Secondly, they are actually deterring people who may be thinking about going from joining.
And thirdly, they are encouraging people who have already defected from speaking up, from going public, and thereby creating a sense of momentum
behind the defections against ISIS.
AMANPOUR: OK. You describe momentum and you talk about how many more have fled this year, but let's put it into perspective. You've got 58
anecdotes, 58 stories, amidst what we're being told are 20,000 foreign fighters who've been lured there in the last couple of years.
NEUMANN: Absolutely.
AMANPOUR: So it's a drop in the ocean.
NEUMANN: It is not the end of ISIS, that's for sure but I think you need to also consider how difficult it is to defect from ISIS. So if you think
about defecting, you have to be absolutely quiet about it. The internal police is absolutely paranoid about spies and traitors; they've killed
dozens of them.
You have to make up an excuse to leave ISIS territory. And then, once you're in Turkey, your country doesn't necessarily want you back because
they think that you are a sleeper or you're a potentially dangerous returnee.
And once you go back in your hometown, typically that's the place where you've joined ISIS so you will have friends and acquaintances who are still
supportive of ISIS.
So there are a lot of reasons why people don't come out. That's why I'm saying those 58 are probably representing hundreds of people who have
defected but are not willing to come out.
AMANPOUR: Let's just talk about getting them out of there. Many of the Western countries have basically said we're going to put them in prison.
Should they be welcoming them back with open arms?
NEUMANN: Well, open arms is a little bit too much, I think, but I think we need to be careful about people come back. There are different groups of
people. There are people who are dangerous, no doubt. There are people who are traumatized and they need some kind of psychological treatment but
there are also disillusioned people who could potentially be very powerful. And I think --
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NEUMANN: -- our ability to manage this threat will be determined by how well we manage to distinguish between those different groups.
AMANPOUR: One of the things that almost nobody could understand is how are European educated and born women -- they may be Muslim but they were raised
in Europe -- go over there and live what is a slave-like existence.
Here's a woman who defected.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Foreigners are very brutal with women, even the ones they marry. There were cases where the wife had to be
taken to the emergency ward because of the violence, the sexual violence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And we just keep hearing more and more reports of the unspeakable sexual violence, the selling of girls as slaves, the repeated
rapes, the praying before and after the rape -- I mean just terrible stories.
Do you think it's beginning to sink in?
NEUMANN: I think so and I think that was a perfect example of why it's so important to amplify these voices and for these voices to be heard, because
some of the girls who were going over, they are very young, they are 16, 17. They are often misled.
And they have an almost naive idea of what it means there to be amongst the lions and to raise lion cubs. And I think these voices here that we've
just heard could be very, very important in destroying that illusion.
AMANPOUR: So you're looking for this momentum to continue.
NEUMANN: Absolutely and I think there will be more coming out in months ahead.
AMANPOUR: Important development, Peter Neumann, thank you so much indeed.
NEUMANN: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And after a break, we look to the victims of that violence, the Syrian and the Iraqi refugees flowing into Europe, but hundreds of
thousands of Afghans are also on the move. America's inspector general tells me why hope is failing as reconstruction is falling apart. That's
next.
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AMANPOUR: It's not just Syrian and Iraqi refugees flooding into Europe. Over 380,000 Afghans have arrived by sea this year. The United Nations
says there have been more casualties amongst women and children there than at any time in the past six years, a huge rise in violence with coalition
troops leaving and ISIS gaining ground, making reconstruction even harder.
The United States spent $110 billion trying to rebuild Afghanistan over the past 13 years. John Sopko is the man who keeps tabs on that spending and
he joins me now live here in the studio.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Welcome.
JOHN F. SOPKO, SPECIAL INSPECTOR GENERAL FOR AFGHANISTAN RECONSTRUCTION: Pleasure to be here.
AMANPOUR: Good to see you.
SOPKO: Yes.
AMANPOUR: It's very troubling to know that, after all these years, Afghans are still fleeing and --
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AMANPOUR: -- they make up the second biggest number of refugees coming now.
In a nutshell, why?
SOPKO: The economy hasn't improved and the financial, I mean the economic situation, there are not enough jobs there. And the entity that we helped
set up and helped -- with the tune of $1 billion -- to reset all those refugees basically didn't work. It was a total failure. We just issued an
audit on that last week.
AMANPOUR: And you've been issuing regular audits and we see them often. And it is sort of blood-curdling stuff. It's hair-raising for sure. You
talk about these untold billions that are being wasted. I'm just going to look down for a second.
The last time we talked, you had a very grim assessment but, 14 years, $110 billion, aircraft brought by the U.S. that Afghans can't fly or maintain,
$335 million electrical plant that's rarely used, $14.5 million on defense logistics agency, just doesn't really work, hasn't been used in Kandahar.
How is this happening?
SOPKO: Well, a lot of it is we haven't learned from our prior experience and that's one of the reasons why I'm here in the U.K. and why I just came
from Germany, to try to learn from our allies on what are best practices. We just don't apply the lessons we learned in Iraq, in Haiti and other
countries.
AMANPOUR: Where there was equal wastage.
SOPKO: Absolutely, although we've spent a lot more in Afghanistan than we did there.
The other thing is we haven't brought the Afghans in. We haven't really built the plans -- planned and built programs that are for the Afghans.
Too many times we built things like we're in Kansas.
AMANPOUR: So it's a lot of shiny objects that they don't need or don't know how to use.
SOPKO: Absolutely, and we don't talk to the Afghans. We didn't talk to the Afghans and brought them in early enough. That is the big problem.
And we built things not realizing they could not sustain them.
So why give them a clinic or a hospital they can't afford to operate?
Or why give them a plane they can't maintain?
That's like just giving them a piece of scrap.
AMANPOUR: So what is the lesson learned?
And often there are lessons observed but not learned and changes are not implemented.
SOPKO: Well, you know I spoke to General Allen, who used to run ISAF, who you know quite well. And he said that very same thing.
We observe a lot but we have to work them into our doctrine.
The military is pretty good at that. USAID and DOD and the Department of State are not as good and they don't have that culture of taking lessons
learned.
So we're hoping to work with them; we're working very closely with the State Department, I must say, who has created a new lessons learned program
and we're working with them to try to get that into their doctrine, into their training, so the next time we do that, we don't waste as much money.
AMANPOUR: And what does it mean for the people there today?
I mean, what's happening also with these facilities, they're just sitting empty?
SOPKO: Well, a lot are sitting empty. We even have evidence of some of our military bases that are growing narcotics right up to the gate or right
in the gates and that's the big problem. It's the cruelest joke we played on the Afghans, by giving them things they couldn't use and would never use
and that's the problem.
AMANPOUR: And why were those decisions taken?
I mean, everybody knew that Afghanistan was emerging from a debilitating 30 years of war and occupation.
Why didn't they get the tools that they needed to get themselves back into an agrarian economy, something that worked there?
SOPKO: Well, you know, I can't give you a firm answer. That's part of our lessons learned program but we are looking at the planning; we are looking
at the strategies and we're looking at the implementation.
We didn't listen to some of our experts and obviously we did not listen to the Afghans early on -- or we listened to the wrong ones, the ones who were
corrupt, the ones who took our money and fled or used it to for their purposes.
AMANPOUR: So is this going to get better or worse?
The new president, Ashraf Ghani, he has a very -- World Bank development, strict view of these things, a lot of experience with how to do this kind
of thing right.
Is it too late?
Can it be pulled back from the hole?
SOPKO: Well, I'm cautiously optimistic. We're working very closely with Ashraf Ghani and the new Unity government. We didn't have that close
relationship. And he's not only talking about changes, he's actually making changes.
We're bringing investigative matters to his attention, which the prior administration in Afghanistan wasn't interested in. So we're cautiously
optimistic but he has a lot of problems to deal with.
AMANPOUR: There's also some quite horrific reports about how American soldiers, for instance, were never allowed to intervene in this tradition
in Afghanistan, as violent as it is, basically sexual abuse by warlords of young boys and sometimes even happening on bases that were shared --
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AMANPOUR: -- by Americans and Americans weren't allowed to intervene and, when they did, they were reassigned or disciplined.
SOPKO: Well, that's horrible. We're not investigating. I just read about that myself recently in the press and that's a horrible situation.
AMANPOUR: So you didn't have any insight?
SOPKO: No, we had nothing. I had no insight into that except what I've read in the press.
AMANPOUR: Isn't that, though, sort of part of what you're talking about, this sort of culture gap, this sort of gap between understanding, whether
it's on these terrible crimes or on the idea of how to do development that actually works for the people who actually need it?
SOPKO: I think you're absolutely correct. We can't create a little America in Afghanistan or any other place.
AMANPOUR: Is that, you think, looking at the figures and the facts, what America was trying to do?
SOPKO: Oh, yes, yes, yes. I mean, we have evidence of where we were going to have bus stops in Kabul, that had solar powered bus stops. We don't
even have solar powered bus stops in Bethesda, Maryland.
When is the last time you've seen a bus in Kabul? I mean, it was just so absurd. These decisions were made somewhere else and they thought, oh,
this is great, let's do it in Afghanistan.
I joke with my staff, I expect to find high-speed rail somewhere in Afghanistan, because of the crazy ideas that were done, especially by
USAID.
AMANPOUR: But doesn't it have a very insidious effect?
Because the political effect and the effect amongst the American people is, you see, we spent $110 billion and the place still can't stand up. So
whatever we do is useless.
SOPKO: Yes, that's a cynical approach but I can understand. There is a war weariness, there is a redevelopment weariness in the United States,
like other countries, and I think it's because we didn't treat the taxpayers' money with the same respect that we treat our own pocketbook.
AMANPOUR: John Sopko, thanks so much for your insight.
SOPKO: Pleasure.
AMANPOUR: Hopefully there will be lessons learned for the next time.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, some good news: an update on two refugees who shot to fame last week.
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AMANPOUR (voice-over): We told you about 7-year-old Zaid and his father, Osama, who were sent sprawling by a Hungarian camerawoman as they tried to
get through Europe. She kicked them. But it was a kick seen far and wide.
Osama, who was a football coach, he, the father, received a job offer and a place to stay in Madrid.
But imagine this reversal of fortune on Saturday; 7-year-old Zaid, his son, had a kickabout himself with his new local team, only Real Madrid, meeting
the players and coming out as a mascot with Cristiano Ronaldo as they faced off against Granada.
Score 1-0 for Real Madrid and a world of happiness for Zaid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: That's it for our program tonight. And remember you can always see all our interviews at amanpour.com and follow me on Facebook and
Twitter. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London.
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