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Russia Launches Airstrikes in Syria; Drawing the Line between Peace and Justice; Imagine a World. Aired 11-11:30p ET

Aired September 30, 2015 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): From the United Nations in New York tonight: Russia launches its first airstrikes in Syria; Moscow

says the target was ISIS but senior U.S. officials disagree. The French foreign minister joins me live for reaction as Syria's quagmire gets

deeper.

Also ahead, from Syria's intractable civil war to a peace breakthrough in Colombia, my interview with the country's president on ending a 50-year

conflict.

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JUAN MANUEL SANTOS, PRESIDENT OF COLOMBIA: It hasn't been easy. Lots of people thought it was impossible.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in New York.

Giving the United States just one hour notice, Russia started striking what it says are ISIS-held positions in Syria at the request, it says, of

President Assad, while different pictures seem to be emerging on the ground.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Activists and moderate rebels posted these images, showing Homs residents rescuing the wounded, civilians searching

for survivors after what they said was a Russian airstrike.

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AMANPOUR: A senior White House official told CNN the strikes are not targeting ISIS and that is a view that right now is widely shared.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZ.: The latest information is that the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reports that at least 27 people were

killed and that six children were among the dead.

These strikes near the city of Homs is not under control of ISIS, of the Islamic State. So already we are seeing the true intentions of

Vladimir Putin, which is to maintain a strong position in Syria, his foothold in the Middle East and his propping-up of Bashar al-Assad.

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KHALED KHOJA, PRESIDENT, THE SYRIAN NATIONAL COALITION: The Russians are helping the regime in order to kill more civilians and more Syrians, so

we cannot continue political process while we are facing death inside Syria.

So we don't think that the Russians would fight daish. They brought their weapons in in order to prolong the life of Bashar al-Assad, not to

fight daish.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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GEN. PHILIP BREEDLOVE, SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER, NATO: We see some very sophisticated air defenses going into these airfields. We see some

very sophisticated air-to-air aircraft going into these airfields.

I have not seen ISIL flying any airplanes that require SA-15s or SA- 22s. I have not seen ISIL flying any airplanes that require sophisticated air-to-air capabilities. These very sophisticated air defense capabilities

are not about ISIL. They're about something else.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So tonight, we have first reaction from one of the senior members of the U.S.-led coalition bombing ISIS-held territory in Syria and

in Iraq. That is France's foreign minister, Laurent Fabius, joining me live.

Thank you very much for joining me.

So your reaction to Russia bombing today, did France, as a member of the coalition, get any advance notice?

LAURENT FABIUS, FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER: Today there has been two initiatives by Russia. The first one is to present a resolution in the

Security Council and second is to strike.

And the general idea, what they said is we want to strike daish, ISIL, and it's OK.

And I said in the U.N., well, if you want to join the coalition, it's all right. But three condition, very precise: A, to strike daish and the

terrorist groups and not civilian people or the opponents; B, to stop what we call barrel bombing and, C --

[23:05:00]

FABIUS: -- to have a political process in order to have a solution, which cannot be Bashar.

From the first information we have, that we have to check that, it seemed that, in fact, they haven't really got a strike against daish but

most against the population, civilian and opponents.

If it is the case -- and we have to check -- it would be unacceptable because it would mean to use daish, in order to fight opponents and we

shall see that. Wait and -- let's wait. But obviously the condition that we put are really obvious conditions and we have to be very strict about

them.

AMANPOUR: You heard all of these people, Senator McCain; General Breedlove, the head of NATO; the opposition leader, Mr. Khoja saying that

they believe Russia's game is to prop up the regime of Bashar al-Assad.

What do you think Russia is up to if it's not, as you say, hitting daish, ISIS yet?

FABIUS: We have our own information and France, as you know, is an independent country. So far as military is concerned, the information we

have at the moment, where we have this interview, are going in the same direction, OK.

Now if it is the case, it means that this daish attack is a pretense and, in reality, the only aim is to support Mr. Bashar al-Assad. And we

have a very precise position about it.

We think that supporting Bashar al-Assad and presenting it like the solution for the future, not only from a moral point of view it's not

acceptable because it is criminal against humanity, but even from an efficiency viewpoint because, if we want to have a Syria united, free and

respecting the different communities, you cannot present as the future leader the man who is responsible for the chaos.

AMANPOUR: But now you're in a bind because that is clearly what you are doing. You are -- certainly Philip Hammond, the British foreign

secretary; Secretary of State John Kerry says, well, for now, we do have to have Assad as part of a transitional government, even though we said he

must go more than a year ago.

FABIUS: No, no, no. So far as France is concerned, we're clear.

It's -- the idea is to have -- and it's in the Geneva communique in June 2012. We have to have a transitional body with whom elements of the

regime, yes, not dishaba (ph), elements of the regime and moderate opposition, not to rest (ph). And we have to build that. It needs a

negotiation. But it must be said that, at the end of the process, it cannot be Mr. Bashar because, not only from a moral viewpoint but for an

efficiency (ph) viewpoint, it would completely contradictory.

AMANPOUR: Mr. Foreign Minister, we have all sorts of statistics and graphics that show that, actually, even in the past year, the vast majority

of killings in Syria have been --

(CROSSTALK)

FABIUS: -- 80 percent.

AMANPOUR: -- by the Assad regime.

FABIUS: And therefore, it's the reason -- sorry -- why we consider that to put Bashar as the future leader is to put people, Syrian people, in

the arms of daish because if, as a solution, is the one responsible for the chaos, they will go to daish.

AMANPOUR: So driving them to the very side that you're trying to deny.

So then what is the solution?

Because right now, Russia has the cards on the ground. Military, their diplomatic initiatives, their intelligence, so what is the solution?

Where is this going in the next month or two months?

FABIUS: They don't have the cards.

We have, first, ourselves, I mean, the coalition, France and a lot of nations, we have to strike very firmly and with a better organization than

daish and the terrorist groups and not surrender. We have to be really there.

Second, we have to create harpor de force (ph) with the Russians, saying if it is to strike daish, it's OK. If it is not, it's not possible

--

AMANPOUR: Yes, but how do you stop them?

FABIUS: In -- well, we have different means because, obviously, they don't want a confrontation and, three, we have to enter a political process

-- that's diplomacy around Mr. di Mistura, among the P5 and some other countries, regional countries. That's our plan.

AMANPOUR: That's -- you mentioned the U.N. envoy to Syria.

Can I ask you, you said one of your conditions to the Russians was to stop the Assad barrel bombing, which he's been doing with impunity for the

last, more than two years.

What do they say to that and how will they stop it?

FABIUS: Others say everybody does that.

No. And here we have to intervene in the Security Council. It's not acceptable and people must be confronted with reality.

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FABIUS: We don't need a media coup. We need people, who honestly are favoring a solution; otherwise the Syrian people will blow into pieces.

AMANPOUR: And you have also, separately but related, your start in France a criminal probe into what Assad has been doing domestically. We

broke on our programs more than two years ago these terrible pictures by Cesar, a defector.

FABIUS: That's religion but that's a different story.

AMANPOUR: The torture and killings of so many --

(CROSSTALK)

FABIUS: -- who before was a member of the military police as -- with the team, a series of photos for more than 10,000 people tortured, in jail,

killed. And it's really awful.

And we got them. And in the legal procedure in France, when you have in your position a intercase (ph) of (INAUDIBLE) dossier, documents which

means that there has been a crime, you have to seize the justice. And we have done that and there will be an inquiry in France. But it could be an

inquiry in other countries if other countries use the same process.

AMANPOUR: Mr. Foreign Minister, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

It's getting a bit crazy; the weather here probably a lot like the atmosphere regarding the diplomacy over this terrible war.

We appreciate it. See you again. Thank you.

So this 70th anniversary of the United Nations General Assembly may long be remembered for the deadly divisions, as we've just been talking

about over Syria.

But this year the United Nations also did make history by raising the flag of Palestine outside here, its New York headquarters, that for the

very first time.

And after a break, flying the flag for diplomacy: my interview with the president of Colombia, making peace with FARC after 51 years of war.

How to do it: that's next.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program, here at the United Nations, as world leaders remain deeply divided over how to end the Syrian war.

There has been a breakthrough in a conflict that's rolled on for more than half a century. In South America, Colombia and the Marxist group FARC

have agreed to sign a peace deal within six months, bringing an end to a war that's killed more than 200,000 people and displaced 6 million others.

In an exclusive interview, President Juan Manuel Santos told me that the deal nearly fell apart at the very last moment. But he also said that

the long, hard negotiations show that even the longest and most bitter of wars can be ended by diplomacy.

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AMANPOUR: President Santos, welcome to the program.

When we first met, you had just embarked on this process and now in the last few days, we have this historic picture of you shaking hands with

the head of FARC, Rodrigo Londono.

Who would have imagined it?

SANTOS: Well, it hasn't been easy. Lots of people thought it was impossible. But if you persevere and you have the correct arguments to

convince them that peace is much better than war, well, that's the way to go about it.

AMANPOUR: It sounds easy, but from what I read --

[23:15:00]

AMANPOUR: -- it was almost collapsed at the last minute. You arrived in Havana; apparently Rodrigo said no. Tell me what happened at the last

moment.

SANTOS: At the very last moment, there was a deal that we agreed on - - the most difficult issue in any peace process, which is, where do you draw the line between peace and justice?

So we had a deal there.

But I said, listen, if we're going to meet, I also need a deadline.

When I arrived and I met him for the first time -- I had never met him before -- he said, listen, why don't we discuss this about the date? I

think it's not convenient. This is going to be used by the government to corner us at the very last moment and force us to accept other things.

Let's not agree on the deadline.

So I said, no, this was an agreement that our negotiators last night reached. And if there's no deadline, there's no meeting between you and me

publicly.

And so we called in the chief negotiators of the FARC and of the government and I said, please repeat to him what you told me. You struck a

deal.

And then he said, well, if that's so, I will accept.

AMANPOUR: Wow. That's pretty amazing, some last-minute white knuckling there.

SANTOS: Well, it's part of the negotiation.

AMANPOUR: How was it to shake his hand and have those public photos broadcast around the world but most importantly around your country, a

traumatized people?

SANTOS: Well, people in general accepted it very well. People want peace after 51 years of war.

But, of course, these people have made tremendous damage to many, many Columbians. And, for many Colombians to see this might be, at the very

beginning, a bit awkward or a bit strange --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: A bit shocking.

SANTOS: -- and shocking.

But when you start convincing them, listen, the alternative is to continue 20, 30 years more of war, then they say, yes, you're right.

And it's very easy to lead a country in war. You can simply show the trophies to the people and the people will applaud and you continue.

Making peace is much more difficult because you have to convince people who have been victims, that want revenge, to change their way of

seeing life, to learn how to forgive. And that is more difficult.

AMANPOUR: Well, that is difficult and there's already some opposition, as you know very well, from your former president, from

actually a large percentage of the Colombian people, feel that they -- those who committed the worst crimes should pay, should pay with jail time,

should be held accountable.

SANTOS: The gravest crimes will be punishable; they will be investigated; they will be judged and they will be condemned and there is a

penalty, a sanction. This is a special tribunal that was agreed -- first time ever that a tribunal is agreed on the two parties involved before they

reach a peace.

Of course, some people would like to see them many years in jail. Well, this is the maximum we could reach but they are going to pay and

there is going to be justice, there's no impunity and I think this is a very good deal.

AMANPOUR: We're sitting here at the U.N. at a time of intense anxiety over how to create any kind of diplomacy around the Syria war and there is

a lot of back-and-forth as to whether the Russian plan is right, whether the Western plan is right, what's going to happen.

How does what you've achieved, do you think, play into what is happening right here at the U.N. right now?

SANTOS: It has had a tremendous repercussion, positive repercussion because everybody wants to have a success story and, quite frankly, this is

a success story and that's why we have received tremendous, tremendous support from everybody -- the U.S., the Europeans, all of Latin America,

the Russians, the Chinese, from everybody -- because they want to see a success story in a world that is suffering so many conflicts.

We have more than 20 conflicts going around the world, armed conflicts.

AMANPOUR: FARC, what, is responsible for killing more than 200,000 people or is that the total number of deaths?

SANTOS: The total number is above 220,000, 230,000.

AMANPOUR: Bashar al-Assad is responsible for killing an equal number in a much shorter period of time -- four years -- and people are seriously

considering, you know, negotiating around him, allowing him to be in a transitional government.

Is it always OK?

Is it always possible to negotiate?

SANTOS: Well, you have to --

[23:20:00]

SANTOS: -- look at it this way, the victims will always seek and ask for more justice.

The future victims will say, no, I want more peace.

And what stopping a war means is that there will be no more victims. And you have to weigh the two.

I don't agree that people should be let off completely. But if you have to reduce the sentences, if you have to negotiate a more lenient

justice to avoid more victims and to continue the war, I think it's a good deal.

AMANPOUR: Obviously things were getting very tense and when the pope went to Cuba, it's Havana who's backed the peace talks between you and

FARC, he said, during his mass on Sunday, he said, please, we do not have the right to allow ourselves yet another failure on this path of peace and

reconciliation.

Was that a timely intervention?

Were things potentially stuck at that point?

SANTOS: He said it more in terms of pushing us to reach a deal as soon as possible. The pope has been very interested in the process since

the very beginning. I've talked to him several times. He has offered his good services in every respect that we consider could be useful. So he's

been an ally in this process. The church has been very supportive in Colombia, pushing both sides to reach an agreement.

So I think the pope -- what he was doing was stimulating both parties to reach an agreement.

AMANPOUR: Let's talk about one of your neighboring countries, which is still a great cause for concern, and that's Venezuela, worse and worse

economy and a worse and worse political situation, one of the main opposition leaders in jail and sentenced to a lengthy term.

Do you see any light on that horizon?

Is President Maduro ever going to listen to the majority of the people?

SANTOS: In the past few weeks, because of reasons that I think are internal reasons, he's starting to blame Colombia for his problems.

I told him, no, no, stop there; your problems are made in Venezuela and are not made in Colombia, because he blamed me of trying to destroy the

Bolivar Revolution. I said the Bolivar Revolution was destroyed by itself. I'm not responsible for that.

But the thing that really made us mad and why we protested is that he started to violate the human rights of Colombians that were living there,

deporting them with no due process. And I said this is completely unacceptable.

We met last week. We sort of calmed the tensions and I've said, listen, we are interested in helping you, if you want to help to solve your

problems, because whatever happens in Venezuela affects Colombia.

But so far he has never heard any advice in that respect and, unfortunately, the situation in Venezuela is getting worse and worse. He

thinks he's going to win the elections. We have to respect whatever happens there, if there is a genuine election and a transparent election

and hope for the best, because it's a very difficult situation.

AMANPOUR: Well, President Santos, thank you so much for joining us.

SANTOS: Thank you, Christiane, and we'll see each other, hopefully, in a couple years.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And just another note on the pope effect. Now despite his personal plea for clemency for a woman on death row in the United States'

state of Georgia, Kelly Gissendaner was executed for plotting the murder of her husband overnight. She's the first time -- first -- it is the first

time in 70 years that state has executed a woman.

According to a reporter who was present, she sang "Amazing Grace" in her final moments.

Remember, of course, the pope had told Congress that one of his missions was to end the global death penalty.

After a break, we imagine the work of another court in another country, fighting to protect humanity's ancient past. That's next.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, we've had a glimpse of the horrors awaiting Syria in the coming days, weeks and months and we've seen Colombia

move forward to end its civil war.

But imagine a world that's not just fighting for its future but for its past as well. Today the International Criminal Court in The Hague made

a historic step towards protecting humanity's cultural heritage.

Islamic militant Ahmad Al Faqi al Mahdi is facing war crimes charges for his part in the destruction of Timbuktu's religious relics, when Al

Qaeda attacked that country, Mali, in 2012, when great mosques were smashed, ancient manuscripts were burned and most of the mausoleums which

had been designated UNESCO World Heritage sites were destroyed.

Previously on this program, the UNESCO chief, Irina Bokova, told me that such attacks are cultural cleansing, just like attacks on various

ethnic groups or ethnic cleansing.

And as the case opens at the ICC, defending our cultural heritage for the very first time, UNESCO is working with Mali's government and local

communities to rebuild what was destroyed in Timbuktu, bringing history back to life.

And that's it for our program tonight. And remember you can always see all our interviews at amanpour.com and follow me on Facebook and

Twitter. Thanks for watching and goodbye from the United Nations in New York.

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