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Amanpour
Iranian President in U.S. after Nuclear Deal; Russia Launches Airstrikes in Syria; Drawing the Line between Peace and Justice; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired October 02, 2015 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: uncertain motives and uncertain future. Russia says it's targeting ISIS; Assad's
opponents say they are the true target. What this dramatic intervention means for Syria. We hear from the key players in the region, the president
of Iran. And we get reaction from France's foreign minister as French jets also continue their attacks on ISIS.
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the special weekend edition of our program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
And this week at the U.N. General Assembly here in New York, as world leaders came together, the low point in Russian-U.S. relations was in sharp
focus as both leaders displayed starkly clashing visions of the world.
During their General Assembly speeches President Putin blasted America's top-dog world view.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VLADIMIR PUTIN, PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA (through translator): We all know that after the end of the Cold War, everyone is aware of that, a single
center of domination emerged in the world. And then those who found themselves at the top of the pyramid were tempted to think that, if they
were so strong and exceptional, they knew better and they did not have to reckon with the U.N.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): As for President Obama, he hinted at Russia's malign influence.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And history tells us that the dark forces unleashed by this type of politics surely makes all of
us less secure. Our world has been there before. We gain nothing from going back.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): This as Moscow's latest dramatic power play has overshadowed all the U.N. proceedings.
On Wednesday morning, Russia said that its jets had struck ISIS in Syria but the legitimate Syrian opposition immediately said they were the
targets as well and the United States angrily lashed out.
ASH CARTER, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Fighting ISIL without pursuing a parallel political transition only risks escalating the civil war in
Syria and, with it, the very extremism and instability that Moscow claims to be concerned about and aspires to fighting.
So this approach, that approach, is tantamount, as I said then, to pouring gasoline on the fire.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): But the fact is, the United States and the Western coalition is changing its tune now about how to end the Syria war,
bowing to Russia and Iran's insistence that Assad be part of a transitional political process and bringing Iran into the discussions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The Iranian president, Hassan Rouhani, laid out the new facts on the ground for me during our interview here in New York this week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, Mr. President. Welcome back to CNN.
Mr. President, can you tell us, because it looks like a lot of diplomacy regarding Syria is going to --
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AMANPOUR: -- take place this week. For a long time the United States has said that Iran cannot be party to any political discussions with the
United States and its partners.
Is that changing?
HASSAN ROUHANI, IRANIAN PRESIDENT (via translator): What was previously announced as well was that our talks with the United States of
America were strictly focused on the nuclear issue.
After having reached a conclusion and after beginning the implementation and the execution of the letter of the agreement, the
nuclear agreement, then having tested the good faith of all involved parties, we can talk about other issues.
Now vis-a-vis the joint comprehensive plan of actions, there are serious tangible steps that must be taken and verified.
AMANPOUR: It seems to be that the United States, the United Kingdom, Russia, obviously, Iran obviously, are now all talking about a potential
transition that involves President Assad staying where he is for the moment.
Do you envision any time when President Assad will be moved off the political landscape, that there will be a change as many people in Syria
want?
ROUHANI (through translator): Well, you see, when in Syria, when our first objective is to drive out terrorists and combating terrorists to
defeat them, we have no solution other than to strengthen the central authority and the central government of that country as a central seat of
power.
So I think today everyone has accepted that President Assad must remain so that we can combat the terrorists. However, as soon as this
movement reaches the various levels of success and starts driving out the terrorists on a step-by-step basis, then other plans must be put into
action so as to hear the voices of the opposition as well.
Those who are in opposition but are not terrorists must come to the table of talks and negotiations, talk to various groups, including
government representatives, and then reach a decision, make a decision, and implement that decision for the future of Syria.
AMANPOUR: Mr. President, what do you think Russia is doing?
Why is President Putin sending huge amounts of personnel, military hardware, fighter aircraft, building a new base?
Why?
What is the point there?
Do you think it's to put leverage down and to stymie the United States?
ROUHANI (via translator): The few times that we have met with Mr. Putin, he spoke in quite a bit of detail about this very issue. Russia has
decided to undertake a much more serious level of operations and combat against the terrorists in Syria.
And during the last meeting, he did announce that some countries, such as Iran, Iraq, Russia must form a semi- -- a quasi-coalition in order to
assist in this fight against daish or ISIS and other groups resembling it.
And I did agree in principle with that concept because I did agree that everyone's objective is to combat and defeat Daish or ISIS. And he
told me that he had even spoken with Mr. Obama about this topic and he would like to renew his commitment to the fight and the defeat of Daish or
ISIS.
And he told me, President Putin said, that Mr. Obama welcomed that analysis and that plan. So even previously the United States of America
was made aware.
AMANPOUR: Well, that's certainly interesting because the U.S. seems to say it doesn't know what Russia's game is. We'll see, here at the U.N.,
no doubt.
May I ask you, sir, Bashar al-Assad has been propped up by Iran, by Hezbollah, by Russia, even before ISIS came on the scene. I asked the
prime minister of Russia more than a year ago; I've asked the Russian ambassador more than a year ago, why would you support somebody who has
killed 100,000 people of his own, who's using barrel bombs, chemical weapons?
And now I ask you, why is it in Iran's interest to support somebody who has now killed 250,000 of his own people, sent 10 million of his own
people scurrying around the country the safety, leaving the country, trying to come to Europe?
Why is that good for Iran to support that kind of man, who many people say is responsible ISIS, Daish, in the first place?
ROUHANI (via translator): The truth is that there are two distinctly different pictures --
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ROUHANI (through translator): -- about Syria. One of them is the one you have just explained, which is principally spoken about in detail in the
West and in America in particular.
There is another interpretation in Iran and in other regional countries -- and particularly perhaps as well in Russia. You do know that
at the time when we were fighting against Iraq and Saddam Hussein attacked Iran, subsequent to which we fought an eight-year war of holy defense, one
of the few countries in the region that stood with us steadfastly against Saddam Hussein was President Bashar Assad's father, former President Hafiz
al-Assad.
So going back to that time, we formed a very close relationship with this country.
So Syria in the region is considered and is one of our oldest friends in the region.
But what is occurring today in Syria, perhaps there are some issues with the governance of President Assad and perhaps some opposition members
do seek a more open political environment in Syria.
But the truth of the matter is that the principal threat and danger today in Syria emanates from Daish or ISIL.
Daish is extremely cruel and very savage. They do not believe in any framework, in any ideals, in any values, any human values. So we must all
believe and accept that, today in Syria, the number one objective must be the fight against terrorism and the defeat of Daish or ISIL.
Our second priority must be a political reform.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And coming up on the program, frank words from the French foreign minister on this turn of events and especially Russia's actions in
Syria, why Laurent Fabius is adamant there can be no place for Bashar al- Assad in any transitional government.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
France, also part of the coalition against ISIS, lashed out at Russia's airstrikes in Syria this week.
Here at the United Nations in New York, the French foreign minister Laurent Fabius told me that Moscow has exposed its true intentions, which
are to prop up the Assad regime. He told me that that would be wrong morally and strategically.
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AMANPOUR: Thank you very much for joining me.
So your reaction to Russia bombing today, did France, as a member of the coalition, get any advance notice?
LAURENT FABIUS, FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER: Today there has been two initiatives by Russia. The first one is to present a resolution in the
Security Council and second is to strike.
And the general idea, what they said is we want to strike daish, ISIL, and it's OK.
And I said in the U.N., well, if you want to join --
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FABIUS: -- the coalition, it's all right. But three condition, very precise: A, to strike daish and the terrorist groups and not the civilian
people or the opponents; B, to stop what we call barrel bombing and, C, to have a political process in order to have a solution, which cannot be
Bashar.
From the first information we have - and we have to check that -- it seemed that, in fact, they haven't really got a strike against daish but
most against the population, civilian and opponents.
If it is the case -- and we have to check -- it would be unacceptable because it would mean to use daish in order to fight opponents and we shall
see that. Wait and -- let's wait. But obviously the condition that we put are really obvious conditions and we have to be very strict about them.
AMANPOUR: You heard all of these people -- Senator McCain; General Breedlove, the head of NATO; the opposition leader, Mr. Khoja -- saying
that they believe Russia's game is to prop up the regime of Bashar al- Assad.
What do you think Russia is up to if it's not, as you say, hitting daish, ISIS yet?
FABIUS: We have our own information and France, as you know, is an independent country. So far as military is concerned, the information we
have at the moment, where we have this interview, are going in the same direction, OK.
Now if it is the case, it means that this daish attack is a pretense and, in reality, the only aim is to support Mr. Bashar al-Assad. And we
have a very precise position about it.
We think that supporting Bashar al-Assad and presenting it like the solution for the future, not only from a moral point of view it's not
acceptable, because it is criminal against humanity, but even from an efficiency viewpoint because, if we want to have a Syria united, free and
respecting the different communities, you cannot present as the future leader the man who is responsible for the chaos.
AMANPOUR: But now you're in a bind because that is clearly what you are doing. You are -- certainly Philip Hammond, the British foreign
secretary; Secretary of State John Kerry says, well, for now, we do have to have Assad as part of a transitional government, even though we said he
must go more than a year ago.
FABIUS: No, no, no. So far as France is concerned, we're clear.
It's -- the idea is to have -- and it's in the Geneva communique in June 2012. We have to have a transitional body with whom elements of the
regime, yes, not Bashar, but elements of the regime and moderate opposition, not terrorists.
And we have to build that. It needs a negotiation. But it must be said that, at the end of the process, it cannot be Mr. Bashar because, not
only from a moral viewpoint but for an efficiency viewpoint, it would completely contradictory.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Foreign Minister, we have all sorts of statistics and graphics that show that, actually, even in the past year, the vast majority
of the killings in Syria have been --
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FABIUS: -- 80 percent.
AMANPOUR: -- by the Assad regime.
FABIUS: And therefore, it's the reason -- sorry -- why we consider that to put Bashar as the future leader is to put people, Syrian people, in
the arms of daish because if, as a solution, he is the one responsible for the chaos, they will go to daish.
AMANPOUR: So driving them to the very side that you're trying to deny.
So then what is the solution?
Because right now, Russia has the cards on the ground: military, their diplomatic initiatives, their intelligence.
So what is the solution?
Where is this going in the next month or two months?
FABIUS: They don't have the cards.
We have, first, ourselves, I mean, the coalition, France and a lot of nations, we have to strike very firmly and with a better organization than
daish and the terrorist groups and not surrender. We have to be really cha (ph).
Second, we have to create harbor de force (ph) with the Russians, saying if it is to strike daish, it's OK. If it is not, it's not possible
--
AMANPOUR: Yes, but how do you stop them?
FABIUS: In -- well, we have different means because, obviously, they don't want a confrontation.
And, three, we have to enter a political process -- that's diplomacy around Mr. di Mistura, among the P5 and some other countries, regional
countries. That's our plan.
AMANPOUR: That's -- you mentioned the U.N. envoy to Syria.
Can I ask you, you said one of your conditions to the Russians was to stop the Assad barrel bombing, which he's been doing with impunity for the
last, more than two years.
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AMANPOUR: What do they say to that and how will they stop it?
FABIUS: Others say everybody does that.
No. And here we have to intervene in the Security Council. It's not acceptable -- and people must be confronted with reality. We don't need a
media coup. We need people, who honestly are favoring a solution; otherwise the Syrian people will blow into pieces.
AMANPOUR: And you have also, separately but related, your starting, France, a criminal probe into what Assad has been doing domestically. We
broke on our programs more than two years ago these terrible pictures by Cesar, a defector.
FABIUS: That's religion but that's a different story.
AMANPOUR: The torture and killings of so many --
(CROSSTALK)
FABIUS: -- who before was a member of the military police as -- with a team, a series of photos for more than 10,000 people tortured, in jail,
killed. And it's really awful.
And we got them. And in the legal procedure in France, when you have in your position an intercase (ph) of (INAUDIBLE) dossier, documents which
means that there has been a crime, you have to seize the justice.
And we have done that and there will be an inquiry in France. But it could be an inquiry in other countries if other countries use the same
process.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Foreign Minister, thank you very much indeed for joining us.
It's getting a bit crazy; the weather here probably a lot like the atmosphere regarding the diplomacy over this terrible war.
We appreciate it. See you again. Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And next, from Syria's intractable civil war to a peace breakthrough in Colombia, coming up, imagine a world where the guns fall
silent after 50 years.
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JUAN MANUEL SANTOS, PRESIDENT OF COLOMBIA: It hasn't been easy. Most people thought it was impossible.
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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world where peace is possible. It may have taken more than 50 years but the Colombian
government and the Marxist rebels have agreed to sign a peace deal within six months, bringing an end to a war that has killed more than 200,000
people and displaced 6 million others.
As world leaders here in New York remain deeply divided on how to end the Syria war, President Juan Manuel Santos told me long, hard negotiations
can end even the bitterest of conflicts.
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AMANPOUR: President Santos, welcome to the program.
When we first met, you had just embarked on this process. And now in the last few days we have this historic picture of you shaking hands with
the head of FARC, Rodrigo Londono.
Who would have imagined it?
SANTOS: Well, it hasn't been easy. Lots of people thought it was impossible. But if you persevere and you have the correct arguments to
convince them that peace is much better than war, well, that's the way to go about it.
AMANPOUR: It sounds easy but, from what I read, it was almost collapsed at the last minute. You arrived in Havana; apparently Rodrigo
said no.
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AMANPOUR: Tell me what happened at the last moment.
SANTOS: At the very last moment, there was a deal that we agreed on - - the most difficult issue in any peace process, which is where do you draw the line between peace and justice?
So we had a deal there.
But I said, listen, if we're going to meet, I also need a deadline.
When I arrived and I had met him for the first time -- I had never met him before -- he said, listen, why don't we discuss this about the date?
I think it's not convenient. This is going to be used by the government to corner us at the very last moment and force us to accept
other things. Let's not agree on the deadline.
So I said, no, this was an agreement that our negotiators last night reached. And if there's no deadline, there's no meeting between you and me
publicly.
And so we called in the chief negotiators of the FARC and of the government and I said, please repeat to him what you told me. You struck a
deal.
And then he said, well, if that's so, I will accept.
AMANPOUR: Wow. That's pretty amazing, some last-minute white knuckling there.
SANTOS: Well, it's part of the negotiation.
AMANPOUR: FARC, what, is responsible for killing more than 200,000 people or is that the total number of deaths?
SANTOS: The total number is above 220,000, 230,000.
AMANPOUR: Bashar al-Assad is responsible for killing an equal number in a much shorter period of time -- four years -- and people are seriously
considering, you know, negotiating around him, allowing him to be in a transitional government.
Is it always OK?
Is it always possible to negotiate?
SANTOS: Well, you have to look at it this way, the victims will always seek and ask for more justice.
The future victims will say, no, I want more peace.
And what stopping a war means is that there will be no more victims. And you have to weigh the two.
I don't agree that people should be let off completely. But if you have to reduce the sentences, if you have to negotiate a more lenient
justice to avoid more victims and to continue the war, I think it's a good deal.
AMANPOUR: Well, President Santos, thank you so much for joining us.
SANTOS: Thank you, Christiane, and we'll see each other, hopefully, in a couple years.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Good news indeed. And that is it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see all our interviews at amanpour.com and follow
me on Facebook and Twitter. Thanks for watching and goodbye from New York.
END
