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Syria's Shame; The Dalai Lama on Tibetan Independence; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired October 06, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: nearly two years after this program exposed the brutal evidence of torture in

President Assad's prisons, the former U.S. war crimes ambassador, Stephen Rapp, tells me, while he's pressing for prosecutions now and warning Moscow

about the company it's keeping.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN RAPP, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR AT LARGE FOR WAR CRIMES: These are valid pictures. These are men, women and children, tortured to death,

eyes gouged out, et cetera. That is not the way that you build a future Syria.

This kind of criminal conduct can't be condoned. And people who go in on his side are endangering themselves in terms of being prosecuted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Plus: as the Dalai Lama turns 80, he tells me why he's not pressing for Tibetan independence from China.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DALAI LAMA: Past is past. We are looking to the future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

NATO is getting nervous about an accidental shootout with Russian forces over Syria after Turkey has said that Russian fighter jets

aggressively entered its airspace twice now.

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JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: This is a serious violation of the airspace and actually there were two violations during the weekend.

So that just adds to the fact that this doesn't look like an accident.

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AMANPOUR: And the Turkish president added his own dire warning.

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RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN, PRIME MINISTER OF TURKEY (through translator): An attack against Turkey is an attack against nato. I want people to know

that.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): And as the skies over Syria fill up with the aircraft of nations, each trying to determine the outcome on the ground;

while Russia wants to prop up the Assad regime, paying lip service to attacking ISIS; we focus tonight on just who is responsible for the

overwhelming majority of the violence and death in the past 4.5 years of war there.

The Obama administration's former war crimes ambassador, steven rapp, is pushing for war crimes prosecutions of the Assad regime's systemic

torture program. It's a story that we broke on this program 18 months ago, publishing part of a dossier of gruesome evidence by a former insider

codenamed Caesar.

I've been speaking to Ambassador Rapp, who told me there would never be peace or a political transition in Syria until Assad is held

accountable.

OK. So we will bring you that interview just as soon as we can.

And in the meantime, we're going to take a short break just so that we can get it into the system and show it to you. Stand by for a second.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. And now we seem to have our technological wherewithal sorted out so we want to bring you my interview

with the former U.S. war crimes ambassador, steven rapp, who's been talking about the grewsome photos, the evidence of systematic torture by the Assad

regime and who is now pushing and wants to press governments to conduct war crimes investigations. Here is our conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Ambassador Rapp, welcome back to the program.

RAPP: Great to be here.

AMANPOUR: It seems that some people have a muddled view of what Assad can do for Syria and, well, let's just get right down to the nitty-gritty.

Well, how do you think the Assad regime can be held accountable?

And do you think so?

RAPP: Well, it can be held accountable. In the long run, certainly if we've got strong evidence, the day will arrive when we can have some

international trials.

But in the short run, I think there's a stronger argument now than ever for national prosecutions, particularly what's happening in Europe

with tens of thousands of people on the road being driven out of Syria. I mean, it's to some extent a reflection of IS, but to a greater extent it's

the crimes of Assad.

You talk to Syrian people, I talk to parents of the children that are tortured in these Caesar photos and they were young people just delivering

goods in their neighborhood. But because of the area that they lived in, they were nabbed and tortured to death.

People can't live there anymore.

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Let's see these -- see the photos while we're talking about this. And these are pretty awful pictures. They show systematic torture,

systematic starvation, to the point of death, perhaps, in many cases, burns and all other things.

I don't know Caesar. What is your impression of him?

RAPP: Well, I mean, I think he's an individual that tried to work within the regime. He's a Sunni and obviously a regime that's dominated by

Alawites at the highest level, but he did his work for years, photographing crime scenes, taking pictures of people after accidents and after shootings

and that kind of thing.

But then he gets called into this business where hundreds of bodies turn up every day and he's got 11 photographers that work with him and he

organizes it.

But he sees what's happening and it bothers him and he -- and he starts bringing these things home and sharing them with the extended family

members, who have connections to the opposition, who encourage him to take enormous risk of staying in there and continuing to record it.

I mean, I think he's an honest person. He's not implicated in a crime. He's deeply disturbed about it.

AMANPOUR: His life's at risk now?

RAPP: Oh, absolutely. I mean, this -- I mean, I've dealt with witnesses before in these kind of cases. His evidence to a large extent

stands for itself, but it's very important to have somebody inside that can testify to that -- to that evidence. So, you know, he's in a safe place

but it's important he remains safe.

AMANPOUR: And when I spoke to the group of international lawyers who'd been, you know, asked to verify and to deal with this, this is what

Geoffrey Nice told me about this amounting to a smoking gun.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEOFFREY NICE, BRITISH BARRISTER: If you have 11,000 bodies dealt with in a systematic way, brought from one place to another, where they

were photographed with identifying marks to enable to the authorities to know that the people had been killed, then you can reasonably infer that

this is a pattern of behavior which has to have higher authority.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: How do you do it in the legal sort of hierarchy?

For instance, Syria is not a member of the International Criminal Court, so how do you -- if you, like these other lawyers, believe that the

responsibility of this torture goes all the way up to the presidency in Syria, how do you do that, pursue that legally?

RAPP: Well, you can pursue it under national law if you --

AMANPOUR: Explain that, what does that mean?

RAPP: Well, OK. In -- first of all, in various countries, including our own, but others, there are war crimes units that are prosecuting

atrocity crimes that are committed elsewhere. Usually this is because one of the perpetrators comes to your country and he says he's a victim but it

turns out he's one of the butchers. So you prosecute him in country.

So the -- whole skills have been developed to do that.

But countries also have the ability to prosecute torture anywhere in the world if their country has an interest, I mean, a real vital interest

in terms of its -- of its national well-being to taking that case.

And when you've got, you know, Germany talking about taking 800,000 refugees, the reason those refugees are flowing is because of the torture;

it's because of the barrel bombing; it's because life has become intolerable for people in that country.

Prosecute the leaders, you can't necessarily, in a national case, go to the top leader, but you can prosecute the head of the intelligence

service. You can prosecute the head of Unit 215 or 235, the units where the -- on the Caesar photos, you see the unit where the person was killed.

You see the date that it was taken. You know who was in command at that facility.

Prosecute those individuals, put out their wanted posters, put out red notices under Interpol.

Now, you won't have them tomorrow. Took 15 years for the International Court for Yugoslavia to get Mladic. But you've got their

wanted posters, you basically send a signal that people that are involved in this kind of thing have --

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RAPP: -- are going to be wanted for the rest of their lives.

AMANPOUR: I want to play you a sound bite regarding Assad staying where he is, which is what the Russians are saying, which is now what the

U.S. is saying, which is what the British are saying, for a certain period of time in order to defeat ISIS and to get some kind of political reform.

Listen to what Fabius had said to me about that.

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LAURENT FABIUS, FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTERAPP: We think that supporting Bashar al-Assad and presenting him like the solution for the future, not

only from a moral point of view is not acceptable, because he is a criminal against humanity, but even from an efficiency viewpoint.

You cannot present as the future leader the man who is responsible for the chaos.

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AMANPOUR: All right, so this goes right into your wheelhouse. The man responsible for the chaos is presumably going to stay there for a long

period of time.

RAPP: Eventually we get Assad, but I -- the foreign minister of France is right and some of the others, I think, are wrong in thinking the

future, even a relatively brief future, for Assad in country is a viable alternative.

AMANPOUR: Your own administration thinks that --

(CROSSTALK)

RAPP: I understand that, you know, we would like to --

AMANPOUR: -- the one which appointed you --

RAPP: Right.

AMANPOUR: -- as ambassador at large.

RAPP: No, we'd like to have peace and we understand that it's a very hard thing to negotiate, but you've got somebody that, you know, 80 percent

of the population detests, who's killed their children, who's killed their mothers, fathers, everything, laid waste to their country, a person that

says he's fighting ISIS.

I talked to a defecting Syrian general the other day, who said we dropped thousands of bombs on the opposition. We dropped one on ISIS.

You see where the Russians are dropping the bombs; it's not on the opposition. This guy's useless against ISIS. He's helped create ISIS.

This is not the future of Syria.

The future of Syria includes Alawites, includes people from his community and others, but that has to come together. I mean, we had

problems in Iraq with Malaki. This guy is a million times worse in terms of being able to pull his country together.

It can't be the future. Getting there, I know, is hard. But getting there with him is impossible.

AMANPOUR: So the Russians say to me, give me another name.

Who do you have? Who can replace Assad?

RAPP: Well, there's certainly other names in the community. I talk to Syrians that are communicating across the Alawaite-Sunni divide. There

are people that are ready to see a future in this country. That's the future that I would see.

With him, with this kind of crimes, with the blood of, you know, solid evidence here -- and our FBI has said no artificial things, I mean, he

comes on shows and says it's all made up, it's all computer generation -- that's not the case.

These are valid pictures. These are men, women and children tortured to death, eyes gouged out, et cetera. That is not the way that you build a

future Syria. This kind of criminal conduct can't be condoned and people that go in on his side are endangering themselves in terms of being

prosecuted.

AMANPOUR: That's a very important point.

RAPP: Yes, absolutely. I mean we -- and we've had these sorts of cases where people who support proxy forces can be held responsible.

AMANPOUR: You have been quoted as saying that, of all the tragedy that has happened in Syria over the last four years, that the one bright

spot is that at least when it comes to accountability and prosecution, they have left a very, very large paper and photo and evidence trail.

RAPP: I mean, it is -- it is something. And I think a couple things were happening here.

One, these people thought they'd never be held to account, that they'd -- that they could do these horrible things and they would maintain their

power. And that's one of the things that motivates me, because I want them to be wrong.

The other thing is that the system was a bureaucratic beehive. I mean, in a way they were constantly documenting everything. As Caesar himself

said, it was almost the stupidity of the regime that caused these kinds of things to happen. They followed standard operating procedures.

But in the process of doing that, they were providing the best evidence that I've seen in my career as a war crime prosecutor ambassador.

AMANPOUR: And you have seen a lot.

RAPP: Yes.

AMANPOUR: I mean, you're obviously incredibly impassioned, I might even say emotional about this. And who wouldn't be?

What does this mean to you, particularly after spending all this time since 2009 in an administration that's done nothing to try to stop the war?

RAPP: Well, we've done a great deal, as I said, to document these crimes and to send a signal that it will be there. And I don't want to,

you know, minimize the challenges that we've had. And I've stayed away from that. Frankly, I'd be sympathetic to ideas like no fire zones and no

fly zones and that kind of thing.

But, frankly, the most important thing, from my point of view, is that we continue to talk the truth about what's happening there.

And I think Russians should be concerned and they should be working to recognize that this particular leader is not one that they should stick

with and that they need to work a transition. Obviously, there may be other people in that regime that aren't perfect, but they don't have blood

on their hands the way --

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RAPP: -- this individual did, and that they should work toward a transition where they can maintain their vital interests in the region, but

they don't do themselves any good in the long run. They don't do the world any good. They don't do Syria any good by going all in for Assad.

AMANPOUR: Ambassador Rapp, thank you very much indeed.

RAPP: Sure. Good to talk with you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And this week the world marks 70 years since the very first war crimes trial took place in U.S. occupied Germany after World War II.

It was known as the Hadamar trial. Seven doctors and nurses were brought to justice for their part in the murder of nearly 15,000 mentally and

physically disabled people in the hospital they worked.

As we know, the world has never seen so many refugees since World War II, 60 million, of course, swelled by those fleeing Iraq and Syria today,

while the head of the UNHCR says that it has never faced such a shortage of funding to help them.

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ANTONIO GUTERRES, U.N. HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR REFUGEES: The humanitarian system is financially broke. We are no longer able to meet

even the absolute minimum requirements of core protection and life-saving assistance to preserve human dignity of the people we care for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Grim news indeed. And after a break, a much-needed moment of peace. My interview with the Dalai Lama: China, tibet and what comes

after him -- when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

The Dalai Lama has reassured his followers that he's in excellent health despite canceling a visit to the United States on doctor's orders.

Of course the Dalai Lama's health is of great importance to China and of course to the people Tibet. As he turns 80 and the question of

succession is still unsettled and highly controversial, I sat down with the world's favorite spiritual leader when he visited London, just as the

Chinese president was making his first state visit to Washington. And I found him determined to be conciliatory about the future of tibet.

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AMANPOUR: Your Holiness, welcome to the program.

Good to see you again.

Let me ask you about your life's work, which is to try to get more autonomy, real autonomy for Tibet.

DALAI LAMA: Yes.

AMANPOUR: You're turning 80. You've turned 80.

Will you ever see that in your lifetime?

Have you succeeded?

DALAI LAMA: I think so.

Here is China, compare 20 years ago, see much changed. It's still changing. Then the -- also the human desire, freedom, this you see

everywhere.

AMANPOUR: You say China's changed a lot and of course it has --

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AMANPOUR: -- particularly economically. They are still very tightly controlled politically. And they still talk badly about you in the press.

They call you divisive, frivolous, disrespectful. They think you are still a splittist. That is what they call you.

Are you?

DALAI LAMA: No. Since 1974, we decided we are not seeking independence.

AMANPOUR: Since 1974?

DALAI LAMA: Yes. Everybody knows, we are not seeking independence. But the Chinese people also, you see, Chinese people are -- many Chinese

individuals are Buddhists. They know.

But you see, government, you see, they -- see, they stand, oh, Dalai Lama, splittist. That kind of a stand is fit their hardliner policy.

AMANPOUR: So there's a big struggle between you and the Chinese authorities over succession.

You picked the Panchen Lama, who, as we all know, was kidnapped when he was 6 years old, 20 years ago. The Chinese have recently said that he

is growing up healthily and does not want to be disturbed.

Who's going to be the next Tibetan leader, spiritual leader?

DALAI LAMA: So the Dalai Lama case, you see, as early as '79 -- no, '69, I publicly, formally, officially I announced the very institution of

the Dalai Lama should continue or not, up to Tibetan people.

AMANPOUR: So do you think --

DALAI LAMA: I have no concern.

AMANPOUR: -- you're the 14th Dalai Lama --

DALAI LAMA: -- Chinese government, you see, more concerned about Dalai Lama institution than me.

(LAUGHTER)

AMANPOUR: Do you think that the institution will continue after you?

Or might you be the last Dalai Lama?

DALAI LAMA: Possible, last Dalai Lama. It is how I feel. I personally feel better the people should take full responsibility. Like

the political responsibility, at least four centuries, last four centuries, Dalai Lama ultimately become head of both general and specialty.

Now, 2011, I totally retired from political responsibility, not only myself retired but also four-century-old tradition. Dalai Lama institution

ultimately become head of both in (INAUDIBLE). That formally, voluntarily, happily ended.

Now the Chinese, I -- Dalai Lama still is politically something important. So actually not now.

AMANPOUR: Could the next Dalai Lama be a woman?

DALAI LAMA: Possible.

AMANPOUR: I want to ask you about a troubling political situation amongst Buddhists in Myanmar, Burma.

DALAI LAMA: That very sad.

AMANPOUR: Very sad.

The Buddhist nationalism that is attacking and oppressing the Rohingyas, what is your position on that?

What would you tell them?

DALAI LAMA: Right from the beginning, when this event firstly start, I expressed to those Buddhists, please think, when you feel some

uncomfortable with certain group of people or religiously, a Muslim brothers, sisters, then you should think Buddha's face.

If Buddha there, certainly protect, help to these victims. There's no question.

So as a follower of Buddha, we should follow Buddha sincerely. So national interest is secondary. Consider as a human brothers, sisters.

Not at all religious faith.

So therefore, to some people, Muslim, Islam more effective. So let them follow that. We must --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Would you say the same about the Uighurs in China?

DALAI LAMA: Certainly.

AMANPOUR: President Xi Jinping is in the United States. He's also coming here to visit David Cameron, prime minister.

What is your message, if you were able to meet him, if you were able to ask him a question, what would you say today?

DALAI LAMA: If that reality comes, then I have to get there. This will nothing.

(LAUGHTER)

DALAI LAMA: I may say to him, Xi Jinping, leader of most populated nation, so should think more realistic way, I want to say to him, last

year, he publicly mentioned in Paris as well as New Delhi, Buddhism is a very important part of Chinese culture. He mentioned that.

[14:25:00]

So I also will say -- I may sort of say some nice word about his -- that comment.

(LAUGHTER)

AMANPOUR: Well, that's very diplomatic.

What would you say about Tibet?

DALAI LAMA: Tibet, we are not seeking independence. Historically we are independent country. That's what all historians knows -- except for

the Chinese official historian, they do not accept that. Otherwise to say, whole world knows those history.

Past is past. We are looking to the future. So Tibet, (INAUDIBLE). So remain within the People's Republic of China. It's our interest for

further material development, provided we have our own language, very rich spirituality.

So in China, preservation of Tibetan Buddhist tradition and Buddhist culture is immense benefit to millions of those Chinese Buddhists who are

400 million Chinese Buddhists. And all the Chinese brothers, sisters.

I think there are too much violence. You, see, too much at all, particularly injustice. So and even immense corruption. Now 5,000 years

Chinese history. This moment, lowest moral ethics. Lowest in 5,000 years.

So they all -- they say very much possibility to believe Buddha Dharma, Buddhism can help to promote moral ethics. It's quite true.

AMANPOUR: On that note, Dalai Lama, Your Holiness, thank you very much for joining us.

DALAI LAMA: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And from that cycle of succession to the never-ending circle of life. After a break, we imagine a world where animals rise from

the actual ashes of a nuclear disaster. Thriving amidst the ruins of Chernobyl: that extraordinary story next.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world reborn, rising like a phoenix from poison ashes. Thirty years after the worst nuclear accident

in history, chernobyl in Ukraine is still seen as a wasteland, uninhabitable by humans but apparently not by animals.

According to the first long-term study of its kind by the Universities of Portsmouth here in the U.K. and Georgia in the United States, the human

exclusion zone there has become a new eden for wildlife.

The study even says that it's likely that there are more animals today than before the 1986 disaster perhaps because the lack of human activity,

like farming, hunting and deforestation, has spared the animals.

So the study suggests the impact of humans is even more harmful to the wildlife than radiation. Now that is something to think about.

And that is it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see all our interviews at amanpour.com online and follow me on Facebook and

Twitter. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

END