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Boris Nemtsov's Daughter on Father's Murder; Justice for India's Daughter; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired October 09, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight:

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KACI FIVE, CHAIR, NORWGEGIAN NOBEL COMMITTEE: The Norwegian Nobel committee has decided that the Nobel Peace Prize for 2015 is to be awarded

to the Tunisian National Dialogue Quartet.

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): As the Nobel committee awards its annual prize to celebrate the peacemakers, we hear from two women living under the shadow

of war and violence.

Nemtsov's daughter, whose father, the Russian opposition leader, Boris Nemtsov, tells us as sure as the bullets that killed him, so, too, did

hateful Russian propaganda.

Plus India's daughter: the young woman's brutal gang rape revealed a harsh and shocking truth about that nation.

So why is the film about her case still banned there?

We speak to the filmmaker.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

In Russia's recent foreign policy forays, perception is as important as reality. While a truce is said to be holding in Ukraine now, for the past

few years, Russian state propaganda has systematically built a case for war there.

And as they now go all-in for Syria's President Assad, even hitting U.S.- backed moderate forces, the Russian airwaves have been filled with President Putin's story of why they must be there.

In February Russia's main opposition leader, Boris Nemtsov, was gunned down near the Kremlin. Some say because he was about to expose Moscow's lies

about Ukraine war.

No one has been tried yet in Russia's most high-profile political murder since the collapse of Communism. And Boris Nemtsov's daughter fears the

true killer may never be revealed. Indeed, she maintains that propaganda helped to kill her father.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Zhanna Nemtsova joins me here in the studio.

Welcome to the program.

ZHANNA NEMTSOVA, DAUGHTER OF BORIS NEMTSOV: (INAUDIBLE), well, thank you for inviting.

AMANPOUR: So let me ask you, you made a declaration that is quite shocking, that Russian propaganda killed your father.

NEMTSOVA: You don't have to understand this literally. I meant I wrote an article on that and what I want to say, that Russian propaganda creates an

atmosphere of hatred. It provokes violence, also uncontrolled violence. And people, I feel with this hatred and aggression, not only towards

opposition leaders but towards the West as a whole.

And this is unbearable and that's why I think that it is a criminal thing which is done by the Russian media. And that's why I blame them, not

directly, but it created the atmosphere in which this killing had become possible.

AMANPOUR: How do you get over it?

Are you over it?

How do you live with the loss of your father?

NEMTSOVA: It was the best --

[14:05:00]

NEMTSOVA: -- way to overcome hardships, is to be busy all the time. And I think you know it also. And I'm always busy, busy with my job, busy with

the investigation process, busy with setting up a foundation in my father's memory. I'm doing it right now.

So I don't have time. And that's why it helps me a little bit. Also, of course, my mother and those people, who are near me, who are close friends.

So I think this is -- this is how it works.

AMANPOUR: You're a journalist as well and you obviously do everything you can to keep his case and his cause alive. And as yet, there has been

nobody tried or fully held accountable and you don't know whether you'll ever know who the real killer was, who ordered the killings.

Tell me what you know, where the investigation is right now.

NEMTSOVA: First of all, I'm always busy with that. It's my long-term goal and it takes time. It requires time to be invested in that. And I will

never stop to investigate into my father's assassination.

So far, the investigation is in a dialogue. What they did, for now, they caught trigger man and there is substantial evidence that these people have

killed my father.

But they do not do anything to go forward. They don't want to question many people who might know this information.

The hearings are held on the 14th of October. I know that there is little hope for the Russian investigation. But I think that this is important to

push to them, to draw public attention. They don't like it. And I know that for sure.

AMANPOUR: How do you know that?

I mean, I can imagine they don't like this kind of public attention.

NEMTSOVA: I know it.

(LAUGHTER)

AMANPOUR: You know it?

NEMTSOVA: I know it and of course what -- nobody among Russian officials - - I know that nobody from Russian officials wants to -- not only to draw public attention but also to start an international investigation or at

least to start some process of international control over the investigation.

You know that Russia, it's a country of secrets, everything is secret in Russia.

(LAUGHTER)

AMANPOUR: Are you worried about your own safety?

NEMTSOVA: My father was killed and he was worried about his safety. But he would have never expected that he would be killed. And of course, I

think about that. I don't think that there are real threats.

But what is going on, I would say, and what worries me is that I keep on receiving threats via social networks.

AMANPOUR: Death threats?

NEMTSOVA: Threats, yes, for me.

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Against you on social media?

NEMTSOVA: Yes. And it's another consequence of the Russian propaganda, of how it works.

AMANPOUR: Why do you think your dad was killed?

NEMTSOVA: My father was the most powerful leader of opposition. He was not only the one who organized mass protests in Russia but he was a good

expert in many fields. He was the author of many reports, it was his anti- corruption report.

And I know that the most popular one is the report on the Winter Olympic Games. And he interviewed Medvedev on this matter and he asked him about

corruption. And he didn't give you answers because they do not want the truth to be revealed.

And my father did it. He revealed the truth. He was very brave and he was the one who could unite other leaders of opposition and people.

And I think it's because of his general activities as an opposition leader for 10 years he was killed.

AMANPOUR: Is there any.

(CROSSTALK)

NEMTSOVA: He was a real democrat and a liberal and he wanted change for Russia.

AMANPOUR: Is there anybody who can take up that cause now?

NEMTSOVA: I don't know. I hope for that. And that's why that's another goal, my goal, to set up this foundation to support people who can be the

new leaders and to support efforts to find solutions for many problems in Russia, because nobody knows what going -- what will be in Russia after

Putin.

AMANPOUR: Putin's popularity is still very high. And his propaganda has been very successful about the war in Ukraine, presumably now about this

stepped-up war --

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AMANPOUR: -- for President Assad in Syria.

Why do the Russian people still support him?

NEMTSOVA: Putin has two tool. He has oil price and propaganda. He used to have oil price as the source of his support. Now oil prices fell down.

They lost half of its value.

Now he has only one tool left and that is propaganda. And that is why he's so popular in Russia. And I think there is a sort of nostalgia and this

rhetorics are so familiar for Russians. And Putin is a very Soviet man.

AMANPOUR: A Soviet man?

NEMTSOVA: He is a very Soviet man. He is of this culture. He is not more than a tool.

You cannot reveal any information concerning our soldiers dying during peacetime. So we won't have this information revealed. And my father

wanted to reveal this information in his last report, which was finished by his friends and supporters. So now you cannot do this.

So it's a country of secrets, of secrets. And it's a country where we actually have -- we don't have any human rights but we have power rights.

AMANPOUR: The powerful have rights?

NEMTSOVA: Yes.

AMANPOUR: Yes.

NEMTSOVA: You have rights if you are powerful.

AMANPOUR: I get it.

Well, Zhanna Nemtsova, you're waging a very courageous battle and I hope you find answers about what actually happened to your father, who ordered

it and hopefully you'll be able to get some answers after that.

NEMTSOVA: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: Thank you very much indeed for joining us.

NEMTSOVA: Thank you.

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): When we come back, from Nemtsov's daughter to India's daughter, the shocking crime committed against a young medical

student.

Three years later the widely acclaimed film, "India's Daughter," about her lethal gang rape on a bus in Delhi is keeping the outrage alive. But I'll

ask the filmmaker whether anything's actually changed. That's next.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Sometimes a single shock is so profound that it can shake a nation to its very core. Take what happened in India three years ago.

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): A young female medical student is gang-raped and brutalized on a bus in New Delhi and dies from her injuries. The event

sparks protests across the country. Her family is devastated.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (from captions): The last thing that she said to me, she took my hands in hers and kissed them and said, "Sorry, Mommy. I gave

you so much trouble. I am sorry."

AMANPOUR (voice-over): After she died officials promised to toughen up the laws against sexual crimes. Four men were sentenced to death, including

Mukesh Singh, here describing the brutal assault but denying that he took part.

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MUKESH SINGH, CONVICTED RAPIST (from captions): They hit her and dragged her to the back. Then they went turn by turn.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): All of these interviews have been captured in an extraordinary documentary, "India's daughter," which is keeping the case

alive as well as the demands for answers and full accountability.

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AMANPOUR: So we speak now to the director of the documentary, Lesley Udwin joining me here in the studio.

Welcome to the program.

LESLEY UDWIN, FILMMAKER: Thank you, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: What made you take this on?

It was such a well-known story; it was dominating the news.

What more did you want to do?

UDWIN: I really wanted to amplify the voices of those protesters. I was awestruck by them. It occurred to me that I'd never seen in my lifetime

another country, as civilized as it calls itself, actually coming out with so much commitment to see change and call for change for women.

They were fighting for my rights; I wanted to amplify their voices. It was the least I could do.

AMANPOUR: And yet, do you believe that that level of passion and outrage that spilled onto the streets three years ago has actually brought lasting

change there?

UDWIN: Absolutely not. And I suppose it's been a learning journey for me, too. All of that passion is awe-inspiring; it is extraordinary. But it's

transient.

Where are those same passionate voices now?

Where are the voices crying out against the misguided and counterproductive ban that the Indian government has placed on this public interest film?

AMANPOUR: Well, exactly. Your film can't even be seen there and, according to Indian laws, we, on this program, cannot actually name the

victim, despite the fact that her parents have named her publicly; print articles can name her.

It's a further dehumanization of the woman.

UDWIN: Yes. I think everything conspires in this patriarchal world we live in -- and, you know, we've lived in patriarchal societies since time

immemorial. The entitlement, the sense of entitlement is with the men. We are, as women and girls, at the bottom of the heap of the world's concerns.

And we are constantly marginalized, not naming us when we have, you know, so much to scream out about the violation of our human rights, is another

way of pretending we don't exist.

AMANPOUR: So you're trying to tell India and the world what happened by your film.

Why are they not playing your film in India?

Why is it banned?

UDWIN: They claimed that they banned it because it would lead to a disruption of law and order. So the truth is undoubtedly they banned this

film because of sensitivity and national pride because they think that somehow it brings shame on India. That is so untrue and so misguided.

This is not an India-centric issue. It exists everywhere. We are all guilty.

In America, one in four girls on college campuses are raped.

Women don't even have equal rights enshrined in the law in America.

They're still waiting for the Equal Rights Amendment bill to be ratified.

I mean, India alone is, you know, worried about this question of shame instead of worrying about the condition and the rights of its women and

girls.

AMANPOUR: There are parts of the world -- maybe many parts of the world -- that think it's the woman's fault.

So I want to play another clip of the extraordinary interview you got with one of those who was accused and who's on death row. Here's what he says,

Mukesh Singh.

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SINGH (from captions): (ILLEGIBLE) won't roam around 2 o'clock at night. (ILLEGIBLE) responsible for rape (ILLEGIBLE) a boy.

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AMANPOUR: So there we go again. "It's the woman's fault."

But of course he's kind of contradicting himself; on the one hand, making this statement; whereas, just before, he had said, well, I had nothing to

do with it and I was just a bystander.

UDWIN: Well, of course, he is not going to -- with a final appeal pending in the supreme court, he is not going to say, "Hang me; I deserve it."

On the other hand, he is very honest about the part he played; you know, admits to being there, tells us every detail of what went on.

AMANPOUR: But not that he took part in the rape.

UDWIN: No, he says he did not leave the driver's seat.

There is a very interesting moment in the film, where there is body language that I invite the audience to look at and decide whether they

believe him or not.

But, yes, the girl is always blamed.

Christiane, I was raped when I was 18. And I have to tell you that I am ashamed of the fact that I never reported it.

I felt guilty about it because we are constantly told, "What were you wearing? Why did you go there? Why did you believe him?"

Excuse me. It is our right to trust another human being.

AMANPOUR: You make a pretty dramatic admission right here on global television and I wonder whether --

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AMANPOUR: -- you were infuriated when you heard in your interviews what the lawyers for these accused were saying.

We want to play a little bit of the interview you got with ML Sharma, one of the defense attorneys.

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M.L. SHARMA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The girl or woman are more precious than a gem, than a diamond. If you put your diamond on the street, certainly the

dog will take it out. You can't stop.

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AMANPOUR: Again, it's very much like what his client said. It's the girl's fault, not the boy's fault.

But how does this change?

I mean, your film, the outrage that poured out onto the streets after she was gang-raped three years ago, it seems that it's all there for a little

moment and then it gets swept away again.

Is there a way, is there a big enough group of people in India who are willing to make this real change?

UDWIN: No, there isn't a big enough group of people anywhere in the world. But the perspective, the insights I've gleaned on this journey were so

searingly, blindingly clear to me.

They led to the perspective of what I know to be the solution and what I would venture to say is the only solution: what we're dealing with here is

mindset. The rape, the rapist, this isn't the disease; they are but the symptoms of the disease, as is trafficking, as is beheading of people.

The disease is a mindset that accords no value to another human being, a mindset that has not been taught and practiced in empathy, in seeing the

world from another human being's point of view. It's violation of human rights, whether those human rights have been violated on a racial,

religious or gender basis.

So how do we change mindset?

There's only one way: education. And when I came to examine what it is we're teaching the children of the world, I realized, forcibly, we're

teaching them numerosy and literacy.

We are totally neglecting their holistic, moral education, teaching them respect, breaking down gender stereotypes, teaching them ethics and

empathy.

And I am actually spearheading a global education initiative, which I'm advising the U.N. Human Rights Office on, which I know will change the

world.

And we have extraordinary supporters for the film and the initiative -- Meryl Streep, Emma Thompson -- and we're starting a theatrical campaign

with the film now, which points out the problem and launching this education campaign, which is the solution.

AMANPOUR: Well, you know, this is going to be very, very heavy lifting for you because even though, you know, you say and everybody says, well, this

is not just an India problem; it happens all over the world, there is a problem.

There has been, over the last month or more, another horrendous case in India, where -- just the headlines here in England, you know, outrage at

rape punishment for Indian sisters over something their brother did, a stain on India.

The proposed rape of two sisters in rural India as a punishment is part of a deeper national malaise.

There is a problem with a country or countries who have that in their cultural DNA.

UDWIN: I would argue, though, that it is in the cultural DNA of every country, to see a woman as of lesser value than a man. Now it simply

expresses itself to varying degrees and with varying characteristics.

So if you're in Saudi Arabia and drive a car and you're a woman, you'll be imprisoned and arrested.

If you are in the U.S. and you're a woman, you'll earn 78 cents in the pound or you will be raped on college campus; you have a 25 percent chance

of that.

If you're in the U.K., one in three girls between the ages of 13 and 17 has experienced sexual violence.

We educate their heads. We have never educated the hearts of mankind.

AMANPOUR: And you are using the end of your film as a sort of roll call of global statistics like you've just been talking about.

UDWIN: Correct. And audiences across the world respond to that and hold their hands up and are willing to introspect and say, yes, this is our

problem, too.

It's the last, most important punctuation mark; in fact, it's the meaning of the film, that rape is a symptom of a disease of gender inequality,

which is pandemic across the whole world.

AMANPOUR: Lesley Udwin, a great film and a very passionate voice for change, thank you so much.

UDWIN: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: So while, as you just heard, education and as well as eradicating poverty would all undoubtedly help address some of these big

issues, this week, the United Kingdom decided to cut all its aid to India to reflect India's status as a rising economic power. Many say the poorest

will --

[14:25:00]

AMANPOUR: -- suffer the most.

And while the debate over aid rages, imagine a world without extreme poverty; it may just be getting closer than you think. We'll talk about

that -- next.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world without extreme poverty.

Now for the first time ever less than 10 percent of our planet is now trapped in that poverty, which is classes as living less than $1.90 a day.

It was around 29 percent before a 15-year push by the United Nations raised more than a billion people out of that kind of poverty.

And now it's launched the sustainable development goals to build on that progress. Recently at a concert in New York, superstars like Ed Sheeran

and Beyonce put their weight behind this renewed effort to defeat hunger, poverty and disease and to reach gender equality by 2030.

It is, of course, an ambitious aim but, as we've just seen, one that can, with the will, be reached.

That is it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see all our interviews at amanpour.com and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thank

you for watching and goodbye from London.

END