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Amanpour
Abdelhamid Abaaoud Killed in Wednesday Raid in Saint-Denis; French Muslim Leader on Paris Attacks; U.S. Vote to Halt Arrival of Syrian Refugees; Former U.S. General on How to Beat ISIS; Why Women Join ISIS; Footballers United; The Week That Shook Paris. Imagine a World. Aired 2- 2:30p ET
Aired November 19, 2015 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: the ringleader of the Paris terror attacks is dead, killed in Wednesday's pre-dawn raid in
the city. All the details coming up.
Plus: an impassioned response to the attacks by the chairman of the Grand Mosque here in Paris.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DALIL BOUBAKEUR, RECTOR OF THE GREAT MOSQUE OF PARIS: In what part of Quran is it said that we shall kill innocent people, young people?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And security backlash in America: U.S. lawmakers vote to halt the arrival of Syrian refugees. After the attacks, why one congressman
says that is a huge mistake.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Certainly in America there has to be a place for a child that is about to be sold into slavery by ISIS or a child that is about to be bombed or
murdered or sentenced to starvation by Assad. There has to be a place in America for them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in Paris.
France calls his role in the Friday 13th attacks decisive and now he is dead. The Paris prosecutor says prints from his fingerprints and the soles
of his feet prove that Abdelhamid Abaaoud was killed in yesterday's dramatic raids in Saint-Denis. His body was riddled with bullets.
That as more video has emerged of one of Friday's attacks. It is closed circuit video from inside a Paris restaurant. And it was obtained and
analyzed by dailymail.com.
You see terrified diners run and scramble for cover as the gunman opens fire from outside. And we'll have more on that later.
Meanwhile, in Belgium, authorities conducted six more raids around Brussels, searching for more information about Bilal Hadfi. He's one of
the suicide bombers who blew himself up outside the Stade de France in Paris.
Fred Pleitgen joins me here and from Ankara, Turkey, we have Richard Barrett, the former counterterrorism director for Britain's MI-6. We'll
figure out what more is known and what more is being searched about these attacks and what more may be in the offing.
First, Fred, Abdelhamid Abaaoud is dead. We thought that yesterday they finally confirmed it. But he's also been popping up on more radars. He
apparently went to Germany at some point.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's interesting, isn't it, that, all of a sudden, now that he's dead, people
seem to find out more and more information about him.
It seems as though he was in Germany twice, actually. There was one time fairly early on, about 2007 or 2008, that the German authorities say that
he came there, he tried to do some business dealings in the west of Germany in Cologne, which is actually very close to Belgium.
And then, this is probably the more significant time, he was apparently at Cologne Bonn Airport in January of 2014 and some say he traveled from there
most probably to Turkey.
So maybe that was one of the times that he was trying to go to Syria. Certainly this is someone who was traveling around Europe. We know he was
in Belgium. We know obviously he was in France and now we know that he was in Germany as well.
AMANPOUR: And do they not know his name at that time?
PLEITGEN: That's the thing that really is strange in all of this, is that if he traveled from the airport and if the German authorities now know that
he was there, then it leads one to believe that he might have been traveling on his regular passport.
Now that's something that seems quite bizarre, considering that he was someone who would have been on a blacklist or something, to not go to
travel to these places because even back then, of course, this was the time that the Islamic State was already gearing up to take all that territory in
Iraq and Syria.
AMANPOUR: So let me put that to you, Richard Barrett. Thanks for joining us from Turkey.
What about all these people, who seem to have been able to travel on their passports, even despite the fact this was what you and many other in the
intelligence community were warning about?
And furthermore, what is the situation where you are right now?
I mean, there are many suspected extremists and bombers in Turkey.
What are the authorities doing about them?
RICHARD BARRETT, FORMER HEAD, MI-6: Well, here I think there is a great deal of activity to try and prevent more people getting into Syria and deal
with them if they come out as well. The Turks now have about 26,000, 26,500 names on their list of people that they should take an interest in
if they try to enter the country.
That's a big number. But it's certainly not the whole number. There is many, many more people that other states are concerned about, whose names
haven't been shared with the Turks.
And I think the Turks would probably be quite happy to have more names and spend more time looking for people, rather than taking the risk that
they're facing themselves, of course, --
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BARRETT: -- you saw the bombings in Ankara not so very long ago of the Islamic State taking action here.
AMANPOUR: Richard, there are those who criticize, though, Turkey's willingness or unwillingness to actually put these people under
surveillance and really watch them carefully. Fellow journalists say that they've put it to various officials. OK, you've got all of these people,
they are suspected, you know they're radicalized.
Why don't just you do something, arrest them?
And they say we can't do that until they have blown themselves up. In other words, you get the absurdity of the situation.
Isn't that the heart of intelligence and security dilemma and some would say failure, given what happened here in Paris?
People on the radar, who they know have been radicalized, who they know have bad intentions and yet they haven't corralled them, they haven't
rounded them up.
BARRETT: Well, yes, indeed. I think you put your finger on it. That is precisely the problem. And many of the people who have been arrested or
investigated for potential terrorist crimes have been found to be -- have been on the police radar. They have a criminal record or so on, many times
sort of minor criminality.
But you can't arrest somebody, you can't bring them to court and you certainly can't convict them unless you've got a very strong case. And in
terrorism, it's pretty difficult to prove that someone has actually been plotting a terrorist attack before it actually happens.
So there is this big, big problem, I think, for law enforcement and for security agencies in trying to prioritize, if you like, trying to work out
who among the huge range of possible suspects might be somebody who is actually involved in attack plotting.
And for that you need some sort of lead intelligence. And I think it's unfair to criticize the security services with the enormous benefit of
hindsight for not spotting information, which actually only really comes together after the event has happened. Very hard to make that picture
beforehand.
AMANPOUR: Well, let me get back to you on that in a second, because, you know, is it unfair or is it actually the job of the intelligence services
to protect citizens in these countries? And I just want to go back to Fred for a moment.
I mean, how incredible is it that the so-called ringleader, mastermind, decisive, determinative figure was actually at the scene of the crime?
What was he even -- I mean, obviously, people are asking that question.
Why wasn't he far, far away from this?
PLEITGEN: Yes. That's a very good question.
And also, how did he get back here from Syria without being detected?
Was he perhaps in Belgium before actually coming here?
It is also actually a very strange thing he would have been back here at the scene of where all of this was going on, rather than directing it from
somewhere else.
And the interesting thing that we gathered today from the press conference and the Paris prosecutor is that apparently he was behind six -- four of
the six recent attacks or plots that were attempted here. And in none of those was he, at least to our knowledge, at the scene.
So why did he do that now?
Was he plotting another attack?
Would he have sent those people out to do this on their own or would he have been part of it? There's a lot of questions. But for him to be 800
yards away from the stadium.
AMANPOUR: It's really bizarre.
Richard, I wonder if you might have an idea or comment on that.
Plus, to follow up on what you were saying, isn't that just the point, we're in a new war, intelligence has to be up to the task?
We keep hearing that security can't do it; it takes 10 people to follow one suspected radical or whatever the ratio is. Therefore, it has to be
intelligence.
And the things we're reading, one guy got back into France using a passport -- well, despite the fact that his passport had been taken away from him
and he was able to come back into this country.
So actually doesn't intelligence have to speed up, you know -- get better at what they're doing?
BARRETT: Well, sure. But we can't assume that there's not going to be any terrorism. I mean, there will be terrorist attacks.
And if you look at what's been happening in Europe, we have had seven plots foiled in France; we have had seven plots foiled in the United Kingdom and
other plots foiled in other countries. So there is a lot more plots being discovered and foiled and there are actually taking place. So we should
take heart from that.
But some are bound to happen. The case of Abdelhamid Abaaoud, this guy who was killed in the Saint-Denis raid, that is quite odd because, of course,
he was convicted in a Belgian court, having been accused and so on for the involvement in a cell in Verviers that was planning attacks in Belgium.
So his name was very much known and out there. But I think for most of the people, there are millions of people crossing borders the whole time, many
of them, unfortunately, with fake passports and so on. And a lot of that is --
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BARRETT: -- just normal criminality. Terrorism is a tiny, tiny tip of that iceberg. And it is incredibly hard to deal with unless you have very,
very precise intelligence.
AMANPOUR: All right, Richard Barrett, that's obviously the challenge of the future. Thank you so much for joining us.
And, Fred, you have been, you know, looking into the French military. We can see here, we've got paramilitary police and really a beefed-up
presence.
What do you find in your reporting today?
PLEITGEN: Well, it was obviously a very strong reaction that the French military conducted. And one of the things that an analyst told us today is
he believes one of the strengths of the French military is that they're able to put in place new measures very quickly, not just here guarding
these sites.
I was at the Eiffel Tower actually today, it's unbelievable how many soldiers are out there already now. And then the French military reaction
abroad. And there we found that they reacted very quickly.
But the question is, how long can they keep that going?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PLEITGEN (voice-over): French air force personnel are busy these days, mounting bombs to the wings of fighter jets and getting them ready to take
off into the night. After the terror attacks of Friday the 13th, the country has drastically stepped up its air campaign against ISIS.
At a military parade on Thursday, Francois Hollande vowed they will not stop until the extremists are defeated.
"France is leading the war with its armed forces," he says, "its soldiers, whose courage I congratulate they carry out this war with our allies."
In another sign that Paris is serious about combating ISIS, the French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle departed for the Mediterranean Sea on
Wednesday, weeks earlier than scheduled and will be stationed right off Syria's coast, almost tripling France's air assets in the region.
PLEITGEN: A senior analyst believes the French public will support a stepped-up military campaign but only if it proves to be successful in the
short term.
FRANCOIS HEISBOURG, SECURITY POLICY ANALYST: The French will want, as anybody else in those circumstances, they will want to see results. If
they don't see results, then they will start to question the emphasis of the French effort.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): France has called for more international cooperation in the fight against ISIS. The problem: countries battling
the group can't agree on a common strategy. Russia's Vladimir Putin has ordered his military to cooperate with the French air force.
"We need to establish a direct contact with the French and work with them as allies," he said. "It is necessary to work out a joint action plan with
them, both at sea and in the air."
But France and its main ally, the U.S., are at odds with Russia over the future of Syrian president Bashar al-Assad, an issue that has prevented
effective coordination, until now. But fueled by anger over ISIS' attacks in Paris, France's leaders say in spite of the problems, they are
determined to degrade and ultimately defeat the terror group.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Really interesting. We're going to see a big, stepped-up military presence. Fred Pleitgen, thank you so much indeed.
And later on in the program, Muslims here in France have condemned the barbaric attacks in Paris. But some still say they haven't been vocal
enough. I put that issue to one of Islam's leading voices, right here in France. That's next.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back, live from Place de la Republique tonight. With one voice, British Muslims condemn the Paris attacks unreservedly. That is
the message from the Muslim Council of Britain, printed far and wide in an advert that appeared in two of the U.K.'s biggest newspapers today.
The group which represents more than 500 mosques across Britain reiterated that Islam forbids terrorism and the targeting of innocents. Now at least
five of the victims in the Paris attacks were Muslims. But as their families grieve, they themselves are also the targets of new suspicion.
Muslims here were quick to condemn the violence and I found a very angry chairman of the Grand Mosque of Paris, Dalil Boubakeur as he admitted that
Islam is being dragged more and more into a fundamentalist direction.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program, Mr. Boubakeur.
BOUBAKEUR: Merci, welcome. Thank you.
AMANPOUR: It's the second time in less than a year that we have met under these circumstances.
The first thing I want to ask you is, the man who they think organized this, the Moroccan Belgian, was raised in a fairly decent household, fairly
prosperous, not poor. And his family says that he was not even religious. He became a petty criminal, he was into drugs. He was arrested.
What is this, then?
BOUBAKEUR: It's the work of these sects. They are kind of sects.
AMANPOUR: So you call it a sect.
BOUBAKEUR: Yes. Yes. We think they recruit people inside, people who have problems, great problems.
AMANPOUR: They find troubled youth.
BOUBAKEUR: Yes. We must stop this action. Now we see young women given - -
AMANPOUR: Exploding themselves.
BOUBAKEUR: It's completely new and completely -- and very astonishing.
AMANPOUR: Did you ever think you would see that here in France?
Women blowing themselves up?
BOUBAKEUR: No, Madame.
AMANPOUR: The pope said that this manifestation of what you're talking about is piecemeal -- a piece of the Third World War.
Do you agree?
BOUBAKEUR: (Speaking French).
AMANPOUR: You're saying that you have to send armies to occupy the land that they hold?
BOUBAKEUR: (Speaking French).
AMANPOUR: Mr. Boubakeur, you're not an imam; you're a doctor but you're the rector of the Grand Mosque of Paris. There is a problem in your
community, at least one that I identify.
Why is it that you don't all come together?
And where are the massive marches by the Muslim community around the world?
Just get out there and tell these Muslims, these radicals, these extremists, the people who you have been talking about, "No!"
Why is it that we always come out after "Charlie Hebdo," after this, after that?
Where are the Muslim marches, where are the leaders in the Muslim world?
BOUBAKEUR: That is the true question.
(Speaking French).
AMANPOUR: But isn't it time to not be discreet anymore?
And do you accept what many mainstream Muslims fear, that they are trying - -
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AMANPOUR: -- the extremists, the radical radicals, the violent, to drag the extreme and make the mainstream accept that as the standard?
BOUBAKEUR: Our religion also is not a religion of violence, of terrorism, of jihadis, of women who kill.
In what page of Quran is that written a woman must take bombs inside her body to explode and kill other people?
In what part of Quran is that said?
In what page of Quran is it said we shall kill innocent people, young people in France?
What have they done to them, to be killed in one second?
AMANPOUR: Rector Boubakeur, thank you very much indeed for joining us today.
BOUBAKEUR: Thank you so much.
AMANPOUR: Thank you so much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And coming up next, as Congress votes for closer scrutiny of Syrian and Iraqi refugees entering the United States, there is outrage at
un-American values and I speak to Representative Luis Gutierrez. But first, outrage at the attacks here and solidarity with the victims.
Message from a group of young comedians in Pakistan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now it's easy to blame the refugees who are coming to Europe en masse. But you have to understand that they're running from the
same people who are carrying out these attacks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trust me. The only thing, the only time an average Muslim is frustrated is when Nutella is out of stock.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Angry? When we lose at FIFA.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Annoyed? When we don't get our morning coffee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In all honesty, we're the same people as you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back.
Some of the worst backlash after the Paris attacks has been directed at Syrian refugees and it's gotten very ugly, especially in the halls of power
in the democratic West. In the last hour, the United States House of Representatives has passed a bill to boost security screenings and to
suspend the program to admit Syrian refugees.
Now, just under 2,000 refugees have been accepted from Syria since 2012. President Obama has promised to take 10,000 more in the next year.
But 31 U.S. governors have vowed to resist any Syrian refugees being resettled in their state.
I spoke to Congressman Luis Gutierrez just before the bill was passed; a Democrat from Illinois, he fully expected this outcome when I spoke to him
in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Congressman Gutierrez, welcome to the program.
REP. LUIS GUTIERREZ (D), ILL.: Pleasure to be here with you, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Congressman, you have come from a vote in the House. There is also going to be a vote by Congressman Ryan, the Speaker, to ask for a
pause in President Obama's --
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AMANPOUR: -- resettlement refugee program.
What do you expect, how will that vote go and what is the implications of it?
GUTIERREZ: Well, first of all, I don't expect it to go well. I expect those who want to use the carnage and the human tragedy, the terrorism, the
loss of life in Paris, France, to use this as a measure against immigrants, against refugees, and to destroy a very successful refugee resettlement
program which has worked for decades here in the United States.
I think they want to use this crisis and this act of terrorism to stop immigration and all kinds of immigration, legal and other immigration to
the United States of America. So I think they're going to be successful, unfortunately. At least that's my sense, Christiane, from talking to
members.
AMANPOUR: Do you think their aim will work, to just stop immigration and stop the current debate in the United States?
GUTIERREZ: No, because it goes centrally against who we are.
Here in America, during the last few days, the newscasts have been in such solidarity with the people of France and particularly those in Paris. And
now I hope we will continue to be in solidarity with them.
You know, they sent us the Statue of Liberty. And now we must have the courage to stand by that wonderful gift and to continue to be a beacon of
hope for everyone.
I remember reading in the history books that when the Irish came in the 1800s, they said, oh, they need not come here; they're dangerous. They're
not white Anglo-Saxon Protestants. They're Catholic and their only allegiance is to the pope.
They were wrong as they're wrong about Muslims that are fleeing the Assad regime, Muslims are being ISIS. Certainly in America and in America's
hearts, there is a place for children, there is a place for women fleeing murder and rape and the savagery of the situation in Syria today.
There must be a place in America. I am sure we will return to it.
AMANPOUR: You, of course, mentioned the Statue of Liberty and the famous words of Emma Lazarus, "Bring me your huddled masses."
Surely those Syrian refugees are the definition of those desperate, huddled masses.
GUTIERREZ: I can't think of any group of people who more clearly defines them. I want to say, though, there is a lot of hope in my state of
Illinois; my governor, Governor Rauner said, we're not going to allow any more Muslim refugees to come and resettle here.
The very next day, a family of five Syrian Muslims came to my city and was welcomed. And we will continue to welcome them. And there will be places
in America and, in the end, I hope the president vetoes any legislation quickly and that we come back to our senses here in the United States of
America.
We should stand like the people in Paris and the people in France, who are saying we will welcome 30,000 more Syrian refugees, because that is who
France is, they have who have suffered so much. America should follow.
AMANPOUR: Congressman Gutierrez, even in Europe, there is a hysteria that is making Far Right groups more and more popular. All of these anti-
immigrant groups.
And I will just read to you what a Democratic mayor in the United States has written. The mayor of Virginia, saying, "I'm reminded that President
Roosevelt felt compelled to sequester Japanese foreign nationals after Pearl Harbor."
In other words, internment and suggesting that that might be an option for President Obama, now that there is this ISIS threat.
Is there a hysteria abroad in the United States?
I mean, the latest Bloomberg poll says that more than 50 percent of Americans agree with all those Republican governors who say, not in my
backyard, not in my state.
GUTIERREZ: You know, sadly and tragically, fear is a great motivator in politics. It's an unfortunate tool that is used from those who want to
spread the seeds of bigotry, of ignorance and of hatred. They have done it in the past, fear. It's always fear of the stranger. Today it's fear of
the Muslim. Remember just last year, we had had tens of thousands of children who were fleeing as refugees from Central America.
And what did they say about them?
That they were bringing the Ebola, as though they had transferred themselves to Africa back to Central America and now were crossing into our
border. Now we look back and say how silly we were.
The internment of the Japanese was a mistake and a stain on the reputation and the legacy of freedom that is the United States of America. Let's not
repeat it again. This is a nation where most people say they are Christian; a Christian precept is to always welcome and protect the
stranger.
AMANPOUR: And lastly, Congressman, America hasn't taken that many Syrian refugees, only about 2,000 so far and promising maybe another --
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AMANPOUR: -- 15,000 over a period of years, 10,000 this year alone. And also, the president is perhaps calling for more vetting, others who say,
yes, let the Syrians in. But let's vet them properly.
You know, give me your comment on that. Germany has taken in practically 100,000 and plans many hundred thousand more.
GUTIERREZ: Sure. Look, here's what they do. In order to fool us, they take the Syrian jihadists, who went to France and caused damage there and
they say, he is just like the tens of thousands, hundreds, millions of Syrian refugees. He wasn't a refugee. He was a terrorist.
Certainly. I understand that there is fear. There is real people who see the carnage in Paris and they say, could it be me next, could it be my
neighborhood, could it be my local restaurant next?
So here's what I say to the American people. We have our intelligence community working, not 100 percent, 200 percent, 300 percent. Those are
patriots. They're not going to let somebody just willy-nilly come over here. They're going to make sure that women and children and the elderly
and those that are in need and are verified as refugees allow an opportunity.
Certainly in America, there has to be a place for a child that is about to be sold into slavery by ISIS or a child that is about to be bombed or
murdered or sentenced to starvation by Assad. There has to be a place in America for them.
AMANPOUR: An incredibly impassioned appeal; Representative Gutierrez, thank you so much for joining me from Washington tonight.
GUTIERREZ: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And coming up next, Hillary Clinton is calling for American leadership in the fight against ISIS.
But what should the military response look like?
I speak to a former NATO commander, who also has significant experience in Bosnia.
And it's Bosnia where another suspected Islamist attack took place today, adding to growing tensions across Europe. A gunman killed two police
officers before fleeing and blowing himself up in his home.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back, we're live from Paris.
And French police have been searching a home close to the border with Belgium. Residents have told CNN affiliate France 3 that they heard an
explosion. But there is no official link to the Paris attacks, apparently.
Now the ringleader of those Paris attacks has been confirmed dead, as we have said. He was killed during a raid on Wednesday. And France's
interior minister says that Abdelhamid Abaaoud also played a decisive part in four of six other foiled terror attacks since the spring.
In other developments, the French national assembly today voted to extend the country's state of emergency through February next year. French prime
minister Manuel Valls argued for the extension, warning that terrorists could escalate their attacks.
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MANUEL VALLS, FRENCH PRIME MINISTER (through translator): What is new is the operating methods --
[14:35:00]
VALLS (through translator): -- the nature of the strikes; the way they are killing is constantly evolving. The grim imagination of those giving the
orders has no limit. Assault rifles, beheadings, human bombing, knives are all the same, perpetrated by individuals or, in this case, by commandos and
very well organized.
We can't exclude anything today and I say this with all the precaution it calls for. But we know it. We have it in mind. There can be the risk of
chemical and biological weapons.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: That's a pretty dramatic threat. And today President Hollande ordered French airstrikes against ISIS in Syria to be stepped up.
Meanwhile, in the United States, Hillary Clinton gave a speech that went far past what others in the U.S. administration have said so far.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: On the Syrian side, the big obstacle to getting more ground forces to engage ISIS beyond the Syrian
Kurds, who are already deep in the fight, is that the viable Sunni opposition groups remain understandably preoccupied with fighting Assad --
let us remember, has killed many more Syrians than the terrorists have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So where do you begin when it comes to tackling the crisis and defeating an enemy like is?
General Wesley Clark was NATO's Supreme Allied Commander during the Kosovo war and he joins me now from Dayton, Ohio.
General Clark, welcome to the program.
Can I ask you first, in the wake of these terrible attacks and what we're hearing from so many leaders, including the French president, that this is
a war that has to be faced down. Your comments on what Hillary Clinton just said, because she talked about ground troops.
GEN. WESLEY CLARK, FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: Well, I think Hillary has it about right. I think you've got to protect the Syrian
opposition from the air attacks by the Assad regime. You've got to use U.S. special forces in there. But you've got to think beyond the military.
And here you've got to ask yourself, what is the goal we're working for?
What is Syria going to look like after all this is over?
We don't want to make the mistake we made in Iraq, where we destroyed the state structures of Iraq. There was no one to give driver's licenses, no
one to teach school, no one to run the museums, no one to do anything that previously was done by the state. We invalidated and got rid of them all,
because they were Ba'athist.
Now we can't do that in Syria, because we learned in Iraq that there is a state of chaos that follows that's simply unacceptable. So it's up to the
West, really, to sketch out the outline of how this is going to come together in the aftermath of the use of military force and then to bring
our Arab allies in together.
You cannot do the bulk of the ground fighting with U.S. forces. It's true. I mean, we're very good at defeating any force that fights us. But we're
not very good at fighting in urban areas, where there's a lot of civilians and people running in and out of buildings and shooting.
We're under very tight constraints. We go in, we can't identify friend from foe. We don't speak the language. And so it's a tremendous handicap
on our forces and it risks a lot of very restrictive rules of engagement so we don't hurt innocent people.
We need our Arab allies to come forward. ISIS is a threat to them. ISIS has made its claim on Mecca and Medina. ISIS is not going to leave Turkey
untouched. The Turks, the Kurds, the Saudis and others in the region have got to bear the brunt of the ground fighting.
And then the United States and Western European allies can provide air support and intelligence and logistics. But the ground fighting has to be
done by Arab allies.
AMANPOUR: Do you think that's likely?
I mean, you've been in these situations before. You were NATO supreme commander during a different war, 20 years ago, it's true, in the Balkans.
And there had to be a coalition gathered.
And cast your mind all the way back to the first Gulf War, when a huge number of Arab allies of the United States gathered under President --
first President Bush's leadership to push Saddam out of Kuwait.
Do you think that is possible today in the scenario that you sketch out?
CLARK: Of course it's possible. But it won't be done without strong American leadership. So it's really up to President Obama and his team to
craft the U.S. policy that wins enough national support in the United States to go in and do the job than with our allies over there.
This is a fight that involves the United States. But the immediate threat from ISIS is not as great to the United States as it is to the countries in
the region and who are our friends in Europe. So that forms the basis for letting us pull together a good coalition.
I've been in Europe, I've been in Africa --
[14:40:00]
CLARK: -- and everywhere I go, people are asking, we want American leadership. How do we do this? What does America want to do on this?
We have NATO, we have preponderance of force in the region. But we've got to craft the overall vision for what Syria looks like afterwards. Keeping
the state structures in place, easing Assad out of there, having some kind of elections, making sure that various ethnic groups are protected, the
Alawites, the sects like the Christians are protected and, of course, the Sunni Muslims.
They want their representation there, too. But we are going to have to look at the political realities and have that shape the military operation.
There's no other way to do it.
AMANPOUR: So you just talked about American leadership. And I just want to read you a quote from Richard Holbrooke, the late Richard Holbrooke, who
you worked so closely with over Bosnia, over Kosovo.
And it is the 20th anniversary, in a couple of days, of the Dayton peace accords that he architected, that you all worked so hard to bring together
under President Clinton's leadership.
But Richard Holbrooke said, "The world's richest nation, one that presumes --
(CROSSTALK)
CLARK: We've lost the connection?
AMANPOUR: Oh.
Can you not hear me, General Clark?
Can you hear me, sir?
Oh. Well, we lost that, that connection.
OK. We lost that connection. That's a shame.
Christmas markets are opening in Paris in defiance of Friday's terror attacks. But amid the candy canes and toy soldiers, armed security forces
are on patrol, as they have been since Saturday. And our senior correspondent, Atika Shubert, visited the city's shopping markets to gauge
the mood.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Life is returning to not quite so normal here in Paris. We're on the Champs Elysee. This is Paris' famous shopping
avenue. And the "Star Wars" storm troopers aren't the only security forces on the street.
There are armed police patrolling, looking out for any threats. Even Disney has its own private security, checking even the smallest customers
coming inside.
SHUBERT (voice-over): "Security doesn't bother me at all," this father told us.
"I came here with my little girl and she was nervous to come to Paris. But seeing all the police around has really comforted her."
The Christmas market in Paris has only just reopened, as you can see, with extra security, to assure Parisians that they are on high alert.
Police are also on patrol and as we walked, we also saw a troupe of cars, streaming by, promoting the new Beaujolais wine with bottles and glasses in
hand.
Toy soldiers, real soldiers and wine, Paris remains defiant -- Atika Shubert, CNN, Paris.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: That's good to see. And after a break, we take a closer look at the woman who became Europe's first female suicide bomber, took her own
life in a bid to end the lives of others.
Earlier, my colleague, Chris Cuomo, did take a look at the human cost of such destruction in an interview with a man who almost lost his son at the
Stade de France in the suicide attacks on Friday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I saw my son, Ryan, tears in his eyes. I had had tears in my eyes and I take hold of my son and I say, I
love you, my son.
I love. Daddy is here. And I took him in my arms and he said to me, Daddy, I love you. I love you, too. But it was very hard. And what was
really difficult was to feel so powerless.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:45:00]
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
Police in Paris say they are searching the home of the mother of the female suicide bomber who blew herself up in yesterday's raid. French TV says the
dead woman was the cousin of Abdelhamid Abaaoud, who is the suspected ringleader of the attacks and who is also confirmed dead.
While her death marks the first female suicide bombing in Europe, she is by no means the only woman with close ties to ISIS. The terror group has
already lured a number of them into its fold, with the promise of marriage and new life and a glorious new mission.
But, of course, the reality is very different, as we have heard from girls who have managed to escape.
And my next guest, Nikita Malik, of the counter extremism think tank Quilliam, coauthored the report, "Caliphettes: Women and the Appeal of
Islamic State."
And she joins me now from London to discuss this phenomenon.
Welcome to the program.
And let me start by asking you, what is it, how is it that ISIS manages to get these girls?
What promises do they make them?
NIKITA MALIK, AUTHOR: So in the analysis we have done of propaganda from Islamic State, there are four key promises that they make to women. That's
the sense of empowerment, so you're joining a much larger state-building project of participation.
You're joining a very strong collective sisterhood of piety. So everything you do is of religious importance.
And participation -- and that allows individuals who -- women in particular, who are part of Islamic State, to leave all of the wrongs that
Islamic State may have said they have done in the West.
AMANPOUR: So what is wrong with that picture?
Do they get all of that?
What is it that they want with these girls?
They promise that, they lure them.
Why?
What do they want with women?
MALIK: So that's a very interesting question. What they want in particular from women is to provide -- to be wives to jihadist fighters and
to be mothers of the next generation of jihadist cubs, of the next fighters.
So what is particularly interesting in the instance of the female suicide bomber we saw yesterday, the first female suicide bomber employed by
Islamic State, is that -- is the circumstances in which the suicide bombing happened.
It was done more of a defense mechanism than an act of violence, because, as Islamic State has said in this propaganda many times, women are to
remain in the home and, really, their participation in jihad is more of a nurturing kind of role, as a mother and as a wife. So this was an
exception that we saw yesterday with the female suicide bomber.
AMANPOUR: Nikita, let me play you a little bit of an interview that I conducted with the French foreign minister more than a year ago about this
very issue because everybody in the West has been very worried to see their girls leaving schools and going off to ISIS. This was his warning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAURENT FABIUS, FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER: We have to be very, very strict and to explain to these young people, especially for the young girls, 13,
14 years old, that, if they're going there, maybe some of them think that it will be a new life. In fact, they are prostitutes. They are sexual
slaves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And that certainly is what we have heard from the very few who have escaped.
Do they just not get it?
Or do they, you know, realize when it's too late?
Can they -- how can they get out of that when they find themselves in that?
MALIK: I think it's a hard question to answer, how to get out of it because we haven't had that many instances of women who have managed to
successfully leave. But I think the idea that they're sexual slaves is a little limited, because they -- especially women who are going from the
West know very well what they're getting themselves into. They know that they're going to be wives, they're going to be mothers and they feel
justified theologically as well in making this journey, making hegira, that is migration to Islamic State.
So the idea of slavery, I think --
[14:50:00]
MALIK: -- gives them -- reduces their sense of agency. In fact, they feel very empowered in joining Islamic State. I know it sounds like a
contradiction, because once they get there, their lives are very limited.
But somehow they seem to think this is divinely mandated. And so a response to it would have to deal with the theological inaccuracies in some
of the propaganda they have revealed as well.
AMANPOUR: I mean, look. You just heard the rector of the Grand Mosque here call ISIS a sect. I mean, there is just -- it's just not, as we know,
a religious operation here. It's a sect, it's a death cult and they're using these females to propagate their future death suicide squads.
What is the typical profile of a young Western woman, a young girl, Muslim parenting, off she goes to join ISIS?
What is the profile of somebody?
And how is it -- it's not just that list of four words that suddenly magically gets them over there, is it?
They're groomed, aren't they? It's a really intensive operation.
MALIK: And it isn't just Muslim girls who are groomed, if we want to use that word. It is also -- we have to keep in mind that about 10 percent to
20 percent of Western women who have gone have actually converted to Islam.
So grooming seems to imply that a man is on the other end, speaking to women and incentivizing them to go. But actually, research has shown that
it's a woman-to-woman conversation.
So, in fact, Western women who have gone to join Islamic State will often take a role in talking and having long conversations with potential
recruits in Western countries, to tell them about the logistics of how to make the journey and what life there is really like.
So that's another reason why this suicide bombing was, I think, an exception because, for them, it's a very valuable asset to have Western
women in Islamic State, simply to, as you said, increase recruitment and increase more women to come and join them and provide the next generation
of fighters.
So whether it will be a common occurrence that women will now be used for violence remains to be seen.
AMANPOUR: Well, and we will wait to see that. But I wanted to ask you, because our Atika Shubert has also done quite a lot of reporting and
investigation into this phenomenon. And she spoke to a family who really had this to say about how their girl was attracted to this mission.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One message was that, "I will see you on the day of judgment. I will take you to heaven. I will hold your hand."
That's what she said.
"I want to become a martyr."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So that was subtitled. I don't know whether you were able to see them. But, obviously, a family desperate that they weren't able to
keep their daughter from being shipped over there or shipping themselves over there.
What are parents to do in this case?
MALIK: Well, as we find with our -- at our work in the Quilliam Foundation, it is easier to stop a potential female recruit from becoming
radicalized than trying to bring her back after she is radicalized.
So in terms of what parents are to do, mothers have a very key role to play in this. And, again, I'm bringing up the female role, because it's very
important. Mothers tend to know when their children are changing. Perhaps their children are becoming more religious, they're hanging out with a
different group of friends, they're spending a lot of time online.
And so mothers have a very important -- they're a key linchpin in this. But that's not to say that parents are to blame, because they're not.
Islamic State tends to manipulate theological justifications for its own means.
I'll give you an example. To get married, a woman must require the permission of her father. And sometimes they're going ahead and getting
married even without this permission.
AMANPOUR: Right. Nikita Malik, it's really very troubling. And we've even heard stories from our reporters of, you know, parents telling
authorities, look, my child is being radicalized. Do something about it. And authorities not even responding.
So this is also a huge challenge.
After a break, we imagine a world changed by the Paris attacks. For one thing, this weekend, England's Premier League will play the French national
anthem before every game after doing that for the first time ever for the England-French friendly at Wembley two nights ago. Imagine this --
[14:55:00]
AMANPOUR: -- becoming a nice habit.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, a imagine a world transformed. We take a look back at some of the strongest images of a week that shook Paris.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don't stay at home. Be out. Be outside. Say to the world, we are not afraid.
AMANPOUR: Violence and attacks that shook Paris and sent shock waves around the world.
And that is it for our program tonight. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.
END
