Return to Transcripts main page
Amanpour
In Paris, Cost of Death Still Being Felt; Hollande Meeting Merkel for Anti-Terror Talks; Gloria Steinem on Feminism Today; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired November 25, 2015 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
(MUSIC PLAYING)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: rallying the world to beat ISIS. First it was Cameron, then Obama, now Merkel. And tomorrow
it will be Putin. The French president continues his global leaders action tour.
The French ambassador to Washington will join me live.
Also ahead, feminist icon and road warrior, Gloria Steinem, also joins me live on battles still to be won.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in New York.
As Americans embark on the busiest travel day of the year for Thanksgiving, President Obama just moments ago made an extraordinary statement designed
to calm their skittish nerves ever since those devastating attacks in Paris.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Good morning, everybody. Right now we know of no specific and credible intelligence indicating a
plot on the homeland.
So as Americans travel this weekend to be with their loved ones, I want them to know that our counterterrorism, intelligence, homeland security and
law enforcement professionals at every level are working overtime.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): This just a day after meeting the French president, Francois Hollande, at the White House. He is now continuing his whirlwind
attempt to build consensus in the fight against ISIS; along with the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, he laid flowers in Paris just moments ago at the
makeshift memorial at the Place de la Republique and together the two leaders say that now is time for concerted action.
Tomorrow Hollande will fly to Moscow to confer with President Putin. That meeting will, no doubt, will be the most difficult, as Russia's foreign
minister ups the ante today, accusing Turkey of shooting down that Russian jet yesterday as a, quote, "planned provocation."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
President Hollande is redoubling his efforts as the French still reel from ISIS' most brazen attack abroad. In Paris, the cost of death from those
130 killed is still being felt. The dead are still being buried, as our Jim Bittermann finds out.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SR. INTL. CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Across France, the slow tolling of funeral bells has been going on for days, the scene
repeated again and again, grieving parents, grieving lovers, grieving neighbors. The stories are heartrending.
Marian and Anna, two sisters from the Loire Valley who hadn't seen each other for a while, decided to meet up for a Friday night in Paris. At 8
o'clock, their mother sent them a text. "I love you both," she said. "We do, too, little mother of love," they responded. An hour and a half later
they were dead.
The mostly young victims of the attacks makes the mourning especially hard. Lives of promise ended far too early. And the victims seemed to come from
all over the country and all walks of life.
Near Bordeaux, the funeral was for Alban Denuit, a young professor of art. His students turned up at his funeral. The school says it will replace him
but the students say he is irreplaceable.
A local senator, the Cardinal archbishop of Lyon turned out for the funeral of 24-year-old Caroline Prenat. Her godfather gave one of the eulogies.
"That 13th of November," he said, "innocence came across monstrosity. Terror struck sweetness. What option did Caroline have in the face of such
atrocity? None."
On and on, the funerals have gone, 130 must be mourned. All of France is paying its last respects.
"We're all brothers now," a priest said at one memorial, "brothers united in suffering."
A country that celebrates the joy of life is just now submerged --
[14:05:00]
BITTERMANN (voice-over): -- in the unbearable sadness of death -- Jim Bittermann, CNN, Paris.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Such a profound human tragedy.
But how to face down this very real global threat?
Joining me now from Washington is the French ambassador to the United States, Gerard Araud.
Ambassador, welcome to the program.
GERARD ARAUD, FRENCH AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES: Good afternoon.
AMANPOUR: You've just seen, we've just seen your president and Chancellor Merkel embracing, laying flowers and speaking with resolve about a united
front against ISIS.
What do you feel right now is the biggest challenge in gathering that united front?
ARAUD: You know, the fact is that all the countries consider ISIS as a threat. But they are far from agreeing to the same policy. With the
Americans, with President Obama yesterday, there was a natural agreement and the two presidents agreed to step up their military efforts against
ISIS.
We're aware, Europe and France, it's a bit different because their can energies (ph) law enforcement, control of the borders and there will be a
summit of the European Union on Sunday to agree to these measures and to work with the Turks.
With Russia, it will be more complicated. Of course, Russia could be part of the coalition against ISIS, but there are conditions and the first one
is that the Russians have to strike ISIS and not the other opponents to Assad.
AMANPOUR: Let's take both of those issues you just mentioned. First Russia because of the heightened tensions with the downing of the jet by
Turkey. Russia is calling it a provocation. Some think Turkey may not be so happy with any kind of rapprochement that Russia may be making with the
United States, particularly over the Vienna talks.
In other words, the political vision for Syria.
What is your take on that?
ARAUD: First, I think, as for the incident, the shooting down of the plane, I think it should be a strong signal to all the countries, and
especially to Russia, that actually the situation is very dangerous, that we shouldn't play, in a sense, bullying or other tactics. We should go to
a political settlement.
As for Turkey, I don't think Turkey has to be worried because, obviously, if Russia joins the coalition, it will very clearly be on one side against
ISIS and the other side would have a credible political transition in Syria. And a credible political transition in Syria means at the end of
the transition, Assad has to go.
Yes, we'll see how much Russia buys off on that prospect, that you all say with a united voice. Let me just play you a little bit of what your
president just finished saying at his press conference, in his statement with Angela Merkel. Listen for a moment and we'll talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRANCOIS HOLLANDE, PRESIDENT OF FRANCE (through translator): This is not just about compassion. We have to take action, action against terrorism.
We have responsibilities in both our countries. We have to take all the necessary measures to protect our population and our territory because no
country can be sheltered from terrorism, especially coming from the group daish.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, Mr. Ambassador, both leaders very strong on how daish -- ISIS has to be defeated. They say they have to go beyond words.
But can you lay out for me how France thinks this group will be defeated?
France says it will not commit boots on the ground, nor, apparently, will the United States or any others at this point.
How do you see it being defeated?
ARAUD: First, as you know, we have deployed an aircraft carrier in the Mediterranean Sea and which has given us a capability to strike very
effectively, very strongly, ISIS.
And there was an agreement with President Obama that we should actually increase the level and the tempo of our strikes against ISIS.
Afterwards, we have to work with our allies on the ground, which means especially with the Kurds but also the opposition to give them the means to
equip and train program, to give them the means to move forward against ISIS. And I should say that Raqqah is especially a target --
[14:10:00]
ARAUD: -- could be a target because it's really the center of this movement.
AMANPOUR: Do you think, A, that you will have trouble convincing Turkey that that's the way to go? Because they have a big fear about Kurds being
bolstered.
And, secondly, I need to ask you about the European piece of this. President Obama basically suggested that the Europeans, your country and
others in Europe, basically needs to put more into the fight, stepping up military budgets, stepping up intelligence and security budgets.
And you are talking about potentially sharing intelligence. I mean, all those things that actually have been sort of stripped away over the last
decade or so.
ARAUD: Well, it does not mean actually France has kept a military capability. But we do agree with President Obama that we in France have to
do more. France is already hiding the terrorists in Northern Africa, as you know, especially in Mali, deploying 3,000 soldiers there. France now
has been taken apart by strikes for now a few months so we do believe the Europeans should be more active.
Actually, some of our friends, for instance, Germany, have accepted to step in in Mali so that we can withdraw our forces from Mali, you know, for
other missions. And that's very welcome.
But we have to increase law enforcement cooperation, interagency sharing between Europeans. I think there was a reference during the press
conference between the president and the chancellor to the P&R. I think we need to have a European P&R. I think the American administration is right
to ask us to do it. So that's part also of the mobilization -- yes?
AMANPOUR: I was just going to explain, that's basically passenger data, names and all the other kind of recognition that needs to be shared.
Carry on.
ARAUD: Exactly. And after that, there will be also working on the theater, I think, the Europeans may also be more present. For instance, in
terms of special forces. For the moment, only the U.S., France and U.K. have deployed special forces, especially in Kurdistan and the U.S. has
announced that they are deploying now in Syria some special forces.
I think in this direction Europeans should be more helpful and it's what the President Hollande is trying to do, to mobilize Europe and France for
the article -- for the treaty of the European Union, since there is an article in the treaty which is calling for solidarity in such
circumstances.
AMANPOUR: And finally, Ambassador, it does seem extraordinary that your country is going to bravely continue with hosting this massive, massive
climate summit in just a week from now -- or even less than a week from now -- and many, many world leaders just after this terrible attack.
At the same time your prime minister says that there are some 20,000 individuals who are tagged by your intelligence service as potentially
being an national security threat, 10,500 of them for belonging to radical Islamist movements.
How are you going to face this huge summit and searching for these people and monitoring this huge number of people?
ARAUD: First, I think we are very moved by the fact that all the head of state and government have decided to come to Paris, whatever happened to
our city on November the 13th. I think it is a clear signal that international community as such is not surrendering to the fear of
terrorism.
We have, as for the security cells, we have counseled all the public demonstrations which are supposed to take place around the conference and
we have ensured the security of the conference place, because everything will be held in a particular spot and it's much easier for us to ensure the
security in these circumstances.
But it's quite a challenge for the French security forces.
AMANPOUR: And you are getting so much solidarity from all over the world. Thank you for joining us today, Ambassador Gerard Araud, from Washington
there. Thanks for joining us.
And after a break, we turn to the woman who has been fighting for equality, liberty and sisterhood for decades. Legendary feminist leader Gloria
Steinem tells me about her life on the road and where that road will lead next.
But first, the refugee who has become a football star for Paris Saint- Germain, as the team wears their hearts on their kit.
[14:15:00]
AMANPOUR: Striker Zlatan Ibrahimovic, once a refugee fleeing the war in Bosnia, says that Paris will keep moving the ball up the field.
ZLATAN IBRAHIMOVIC, PSG STRIKER: It's madness what happened, but we still need to go on. We cannot give up here. We go on and we do what we need to
do.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to our program from New York tonight.
Now, there is not a feminist in the world more recognizable than Gloria Steinem. The tireless American activist has been championing women's
rights for decades.
Steinem is now, incredibly, 81 and spreading her wisdom around the globe from her first major book, "Outrageous Acts and Everyday Rebellions," and
now her latest, "My Life on the Road." Gloria Steinem joins me now.
Welcome to the program.
GLORIA STEINEM, FEMINIST: Thank you so much.
AMANPOUR: Great to have you here.
I want to start with your life on the road. And I was actually -- didn't know how big a part your early young travels played in your feminist career
and your activism, organizing career. You went to India and there you met people who talked to you about talking circles. I had never heard of that,
even though apparently they've been a form of governance for generations.
STEINEM: Yes, really they are the original form of governance.
AMANPOUR: What does it mean?
STEINEM: Well, it means sitting in a circle, each person able, in their turn, to tell their problem or their story, whatever it is with everybody
listening and consensus more important than time. And it's really crucial.
And indeed, our constitution was based on their confederacy version of this.
AMANPOUR: And how did that -- what sort of triggered in your mind about how you would take what you learned?
What did you actually experience there and how did you use it coming back here?
STEINEM: In the beginning, because I thought India was completely separate from us, it took me a long time to understand how crucial it was that every
major social justice movement comes out of this kind of sharing of concerns, discovering you're not crazy, the system is crazy.
You know, whether it is the civil rights movement here in black churches in the South or the women's movement here in consciousness-raising circles or
the Chinese Revolution in speaking bitterness circles. It is the fundamental around the campfire form that we all need.
AMANPOUR: When you look back and you write this book, which is really instructive and entertaining at the same time, we've been through several
waves of feminism.
Where are we now?
Because some people think the fight is over.
Is it?
STEINEM: The people who say the fight is over are the same people who used to say to me it's impossible. It's against nature. And now their current
form of obstructionism is it's over. No, no, we've just barely begun.
AMANPOUR: And obstructionism, you choose that word obviously with consideration. You still feel that women, we are being obstructed.
STEINEM: You know, we're all born into this very patriarchal culture. It takes different forms around the world. But the basis of it is that
reproduction must be controlled by men and that means controlling women's bodies. It may take different forms, religious forms, political forms but
that is the --
[14:20:00]
STEINEM: -- basic impulse. And so, you know, it's quite radical to say we are seizing control of reproduction, which we are, and it makes perfect
sense because these are our bodies. And this was also the form of governance for millennia, before patriarchy came along.
AMANPOUR: Again, going back to India, you were there, you observed the female prime minister, Indira Gandhi, being the first, controversially, to
enact a family planning program.
But you also know that there is infanticide there and obviously girls are the ones who get aborted. We talked also to an activist recently about the
continuing abomination of female genital mutilation. And she put it in these terms that you're talking about. Just listen to this and we'll talk
about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: I understand that one of the priorities for you was to have a cabinet that was gender balanced.
Why was that so important to you?
JUSTIN TRUDEAU, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: Because it's 2015.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: All right, that's the right sound bite of the wrong moment but let's just talk about that, then and we'll get back to that.
STEINEM: That was good news.
AMANPOUR: That was really good news, exactly, that's right. That was the recent prime minister of Canada saying it's 2015 and we need gender balance
in the cabinet.
That must have sounded great to you, right?
That went viral.
STEINEM: Yes, absolutely. It makes perfect sense and we have made progress in a lot of ways.
But we still discuss, say, foreign policy and terrorism and all the disasters that you report as if it was separate from the women's movement.
The women's movement is a silo over here, foreign policy is a silo over there and never the twain shall meet.
AMANPOUR: How do you think the twain meet?
STEINEM: The twain meet because the single biggest predictor of violence in a culture has always been the polarization of roles, hypermasculinity on
one side, hyperfeminity of women and reproduction controlled on the other side.
And if we simply looked at that as an indicator, we would not, for instance, have supported, say, the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, who turned
into the Taliban because they were way more hostile and way more violent towards females than the regime we helped them overthrow.
AMANPOUR: Let me play that other sound bite because it goes to the heart of what we're talking about. This is about female genital mutilation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEYLA HUSSEIN, FGM SURVIVOR AND ACTIVIST: There is a reason why our genitals were specifically targeted. Women are not supposed to have sexual
pleasure, women are not supposed to experiment with their sexuality. So we need to ask ourselves why is there such a focus on women's sexuality?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STEINEM: Yes. I mean, it's taking away women's sexual will, women's sexual pleasure and turning them into nothing but a controlled means of
reproduction. That's an extreme form of it. But it is in gradated forms in many cultures.
AMANPOUR: Here you are, I said you're 81, nobody would believe it if they looked at you.
STEINEM: I don't believe it.
(LAUGHTER)
AMANPOUR: Once somebody asked you, oh, my god, you're 40 and you said this is what 40 look like, which is a very empowering thing to say and you've
been saying that every decade, which is great.
We should own the road we've traveled.
But what is it, do you think, despite all the progress that you and we have made, that has not yet reached a tipping point, final momentum point, so
that there is parity and there is gender justice, which is global justice, despite the fact that it would make, if all other arguments failed,
economic sense?
STEINEM: It wouldn't make economic sense to the people who are profiting from women being underpaid.
AMANPOUR: But to GDP, it does.
STEINEM: Yes. But that doesn't count caregiving -- you know. But the fundamental problem is that the gendered nature of violence is continuing
and accelerating and right now there are fewer female human beings on Earth than there are male human beings because of all these forms of violence,
including domestic violence in this country, combined.
And we are not paying attention to that. And we are not using it as an indicator in our foreign policy.
AMANPOUR: One last question.
Where does the road lead you next?
STEINEM: Well, I get to go to other countries now with the book. It's sort of like the book has come to life over again, so I get to go to
Australia, New Zealand and also, importantly, to Africa, where Dr. Mcquage (ph) in the Congo, is, I think, to violence against females what --
[14:25:00]
STEINEM: -- Mandela was to apartheid, a great hope in the world.
AMANPOUR: What a great way to end. Gloria Steinem, thank you so much.
STEINEM: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Thank you very much.
So making change for generations to come.
But first mourning a young woman whose bright future was truly stolen in those Paris attacks. As the French, as we've seen, have bee buying their
dead, so, too, in Italy. Twenty-eight-year-old PhD student Valeria Solesin was the only Italian victim on that Friday 13th. Her country bid her an
emotional farewell in a state funereal this week in Venice. And thousands of people filled St. Mark's Square to say goodbye.
Next, we imagine a world redoubling its effort to smother ISIS as Italian culture takes on terror. That's next.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, with Europe on edge as fears abound of more terror attacks, Italy has decided to fight fire with flair.
Tonight we imagine a world where beauty is deployed against barbarity because, as Italy designates another 1 billion euros to beef up its
security it is also giving that same amount to the country's cultural programs, including in poorer neighborhoods.
As the Italian prime minister, Matteo Renzi, declared in an impassioned speech from Rome.
MATTEO RENZI, ITALIAN PRIME MINISTER (through translator): The response Italy must give today to terrorists is very simple: we shall never change
our way of life. We will never give up our values. We will not surrender to terror.
They will surrender before we do, because there are centuries of history in this hall, because there are centuries of history in this building, in this
city, in this country that scream loudly. Culture is stronger than ignorance, humanity is stronger than terror, beauty is stronger than
barbarity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And defiantly he added, "They imagine terror; we answer with culture. They destroy statues; we love art. They destroy books; we are
the country of libraries."
And that is it for our program tonight. Thanks for watching and goodbye from New York.
END
