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California among Six States Voting; Hunting for Humans in Malawi; Imagine a World. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired June 07, 2016 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: we go inside the California primaries and we talk to Senator Debbie Stabenow about
Hillary Clinton.
And indeed afterwards, we hear about a very, very bad situation in Malawi where it seems to be open season on albinos. We ask the head of
Amnesty International how to stop them being killed for the supposedly magical properties of their bones.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (from captions): Why should people hunt me like they're hunting -- they're hunting for animals to eat?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
History is being made today in the United States, where, for the first time ever, a woman running for president has clinched the nomination of a
major party.
Even before voting has ended in the final six-state contest, Hillary Clinton, the woman of many firsts, looks set to finally shatter the glass
ceiling that she started to crack when she ended her run against Barack Obama exactly eight years ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Although we aren't able to shatter that highest, hardest glass ceiling this
time, thanks to you, it's got about 18 million cracks in it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Now she's obviously hoping to shatter the final ceiling. But Bernie Sanders continues to wage an unlikely battle to win over super
delegates that are already pledged to Clinton.
Meanwhile, over on the Republican side, Donald Trump is facing an internal revolt; after holding his nose and finally endorsing him last
week, the House Speaker Paul Ryan today is calling Trump's attack of an American Latino judge, quote, "the textbook definition of a racist."
But he's still backing him.
Now California is among those six states voting today. It's the large major primary day of the season. And CNN's Stephanie Elam is in Los
Angeles, where she joins me now.
So, Stephanie, what is the atmosphere?
What is the feeling today outside some of those polls you must be visiting?
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, well, Christiane, we are in the middle of Los Angeles here, in Los Angeles County, California. I'm
going to step out of the shot so you can see that people are showing up. We've got a diverse crowd that has been coming to this polling location
here.
And one thing, by the time the primary gets to California, usually by then it's a done deal.
In this case, we know that Bernie Sanders thinks that he might be able to make a win here in California, and so because of that, you see a lot of
people here in California turning out to vote for either of the candidate that they think is the right one for this presidential election --
Christiane.
AMANPOUR: So Stephanie, you mentioned the Bernie thing. But presumably the actual numbers are still favoring Hillary Clinton.
And what about on the Republican side, because with all the latest drama over Donald Trump and what Paul Ryan has called the textbook
definition of a racist comment, does that seem to be part of what people are talking about as they vote?
ELAM: What you hear about here where we are is more about the talk about the Democratic election. A lot of people see the Republican election
as pretty much done and that's what the situation is going to be.
But a lot of people here that I've spoken to are saying that they're turning out to vote because they want to stop Donald Trump. So that's why
they want to make sure that they were out here and having their voices heard.
Because they feel the winning team, as one man put it to me, would be in his case Hillary Clinton and that's the reason why he was casting his
ballot for her because he thinks that that is the best person who could beat Donald Trump come November -- Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Stephanie, thank you from that polling station there in Los Angeles and a race that is endlessly fascinating even way over this side of
the world.
And earlier, I spoke to the longtime Clinton supporter, Debbie Stabenow. She's the Democratic senator from Michigan. And I asked her
about whether Hillary can shatter the ultimate glass ceiling in a fight against Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Senator Stabenow, welcome.
SEN. DEBBIE STABENOW (D), MICH.: It's good to be with you.
AMANPOUR: So this is a historic moment, tell me what it means exactly.
STABENOW: Well, let me say we still have folks voting today so we want everybody to come out and vote. What is so exciting for me as a
woman, this is the moment where the United States does what many other countries have already done which is to --
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STABENOW: -- place a woman in our highest office.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you this, because so many people around the world are looking at your election and have been dumbfounded by the
prospects going forward. Particularly, as everybody knows, people are amazed that a Donald Trump could get this far.
STABENOW: Right.
AMANPOUR: What do you hear when you, as a U.S. senator, travel around the world?
STABENOW: Well, I have been traveling and people approach me and they are dumbfounded, they're perplexed. They want to know if this is really
serious. I explain our election process and how it works.
And that, frankly, I'm confident that, at the end of the day, when all of the evidence is there, when people look at who Donald Trump is and in my
judgment, he's not only dangerous but he's a con man. And people are going to see what he has done to working people, to seniors. He's hustled people
out of their money.
He's cost people jobs and that's going to become very, very clear, versus someone that has incredible experience and knowledge and
relationships with our friends around the world.
I think there's a level of trust and understanding that she will be able to come in and continue to work with all of our allies.
And so -- but folks are scratching their heads, for sure.
AMANPOUR: I'm going to get more of Donald Trump in a second but I first want to ask you about Hillary. She is obviously by all accounts the
most experienced and the most competent in terms of public service than any of the others who are running right now.
STABENOW: Right.
AMANPOUR: But in your own party, you also have -- I don't know, do you call it a problem?
Bernie Sanders is behaving, as many call it, like a sore loser.
Do you think that he will come into the tent, support her when she becomes the nominee if she clinches California and get his voters to
support her for the good of your party?
STABENOW: I do believe that he will do that. It may take some time. These are hard-fought primaries. I remember in 2008, I was supporting
Hillary and it's hard when you don't win the primary. But I'm confident that he will do what she did, which was to look more broadly at our party,
at our country and do the right thing.
The great thing for all of us is that Bernie Sanders is a senior senator, who will come back, we're hopeful, when we will take the majority
in the Senate and he will come back as the chair of a major committee and will have a platform to continue his advocacy, working with a Democratic
president, and be able to get done the things he's been talking about.
AMANPOUR: The truth of the matter is, though, Senator, for whatever reason it is, Hillary Clinton doesn't have the young people, by and large,
on her side.
Plus, the things that Donald Trump says and others say about her have tended to stick. In other words, he calls her "Crooked Hillary." People
believe that she's dishonest, that she's unlikable.
How does she get over that in a two-way competition going forth and going forward from tomorrow?
STABENOW: Well, I will say that Hillary Clinton has been involved in fighting for families, for children, for women all of her life. And with
that comes the bruises, the assaults, you know, she's been knocked down and gets right back up and keeps right on fighting.
I remember, I was in Beijing in 1995, 4th World Conference on Women when folks said will she make that speech?
Will she say that women's rights are human rights?
It was tough. The Chinese didn't want her to do that, obviously. And she spoke on behalf of all of us. I have seen that courage and tenacity.
She doesn't give up, so they come at her because she stands up for working people, families, women. She's breaking down barriers. There are
folks that don't like that. So they hit her down and then she gets right back up.
And that's one of the great strengths of Hillary Clinton. So I think she's going to be fine. And when they talk about names, I'd like to say
Don the Con or Dangerous Donald, I mean, there's a lot of names that we can be tagging with this fellow that is running on the Republican side.
AMANPOUR: Well, Senator, it looks like the Republican grandees are in a bit of a pickle today because of what Donald Trump has been saying about
the judge in his particular case, implying that because his parents were Mexican, he couldn't do his job right.
Everybody has been waiting for the Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan, to declare on that.
And this is what he has said today about Donald Trump's comments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PAUL RYAN (R), HOUSE SPEAKER: Claiming a person can't do their job because of their race is sort of like the textbook definition of a
racist comment. I think that should be absolutely disavowed. It's absolutely unacceptable.
But do I believe that Hillary Clinton is the answer?
No, I do not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, Senator, do you think the Republicans or you in Congress, are you going to start --
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AMANPOUR: -- naming and shaming those who are supporting Donald Trump?
He is the Speaker of the House, calling his comments racist, the definition of racism and yet backing somebody he calls a racist.
STABENOW: Two thoughts come to mind in listening to that.
First of all, you're right; he's saying these are racist comments but I'm going to support him anyway.
What?
Really?
Really?
Is that what we've come to?
And then secondly he says that Donald Trump supports his policy positions. Well, let me tell you what Paul Ryan's policy positions have
been, prioritizing Social Security, undermining Medicare, creating a voucher, dramatically cutting Medicaid, 80 percent of which goes to low
income seniors in nursing homes, a whole range of things.
Cutting back on our capacity to invest in infrastructure and education and create jobs here at home.
So I listen to that and I think this is really bad on two fronts, both that he would somehow embrace this guy making these comments and then also
say, well, it's OK to make racist comments because he supports our agenda.
Well, hello, his agenda is really bad for American people.
AMANPOUR: What does this day mean for the United States of America?
STABENOW: You know, this is very, very special, I think for everyone. This is another major step in fulfilling the foundational values of our
country, that anybody can work hard and dream big dreams and grow up to be anything they want to be.
And I hope that's what our sons and daughters and granddaughters and grandsons will see and that they will know that this is a very inspiring
time.
AMANPOUR: And, finally, when it get to the election, of course, I think Michigan sometimes can be called a swing state, correct me if I'm
wrong.
STABENOW: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Who do you think will Michigan go for?
What traditionally does Michigan do in a general election?
STABENOW: Well, I think that it will be competitive and Hillary Clinton will win the general election. Folks in Michigan don't like to be
conned. They don't like somebody who creates his products in China and then brings them back to the United States rather than making them here so
that they could have a job.
They don't like somebody that's going to undermine the very basics of economic security for seniors, of Social Security and Medicare.
So when you look at all of this, they're not going to support a con man and that's what Donald Trump is.
AMANPOUR: Senator Debbie Stabenow, thank you so much indeed for joining us.
STABENOW: You're welcome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Now after the break, if you didn't see it with your own eyes, you might not believe our next story: human beings, adults and
children, hunted down for the supposedly magical properties of their bones. Stay with us to find out whether this endangered species can be saved from
extinction. We'll be right back.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
For decades, Malawi has been known as the warm heart of Africa. But the small, landlocked country in the south has a problem. It's one so
gruesome it beggars belief. A newly released Amnesty International report has found a bloody spike in the murders of people who've been known as
albinos, with a genetic condition resulting in --
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AMANPOUR: -- little or no pigmentation in the skin, hair and eyes.
A spate of recent killings, including a baby, have this minority community fearing for its very survival.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): This is the Malawi that charms visitors, bucolic, quaint and largely peaceful, except, that is, for one community.
For the country's albinos, going about everyday life is quite literally a gamble. They are constantly stalked by the risk of a grisly
death, even dismembered to satisfy a terrifying demand.
Chakapuza (ph) is too young to understand the price tag on her head but her mother understands only too well, as does her big sister, who is
also albino.
Agnes (ph) told Amnesty International researchers about the day her youngest daughter was attacked and abducted from home by three men who
wanted to chop off her limbs and sell the body parts to witch doctors, traditional healers who deal in the fantasy that the bones and organs of
albino people bring happiness and wealth.
Chakapuza (ph) was saved by quick-thinking neighbors, who chased after the men, forcing them to dump the child in nearby bushes, leaving her
unharmed.
Her mother knows that she was lucky -- this time, anyway. Agnes' (ph) daughters are just two of thousands of defenseless children as well as men
and women who've become Malawi's hunted class.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (from captions): It has really raised fear and imagine the thought to say, what do I do? Should I lock up in my house?
Why should people hunt me like they're hunting a -- they're hunting for animals to eat?
AMANPOUR (voice-over): And with the recent surge in killings, this minority community is more vulnerable than ever.
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AMANPOUR: And now, Amnesty International secretary-general Salil Shetty joins me to discuss all of this.
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AMANPOUR: Well, welcome. I mean, honestly, it is horrendous. This reminds me, you know, we talk about rhinos being hunted for their horn and
tigers for their supposedly magical properties.
These are human beings.
SALIL SHETTY, SECRETARY-GENERAL, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL: It's totally shocking. I think what's very worrying -- you know, these deaths have been
reported since 2009 in Malawi, what is worrying Amnesty International right now is that there's been an alarming surge in the brutal killings and
abductions.
Just in April this year, two months ago, we had four people killed, including a baby. And you saw the pictures just now.
But Witme Chilungfa (ph), one of the 2-year-old girls, her story was really horrible. She was asleep with her mother at night and she was
snatched away. And four days, later parts of her skull and clothes were found on a hill nearby. So it's a combination of social stigma, which has
been around for a long time.
But the poverty which is driving these criminal gangs as well and a weak and struggling state.
AMANPOUR: You just shocked me by saying this has been around since 2009 and we're only just reacting because there's been a surge.
What has Amnesty been doing about it in these intervening years?
And is the government actually taking any measures to protect these people?
SHETTY: I mean, it's not just Amnesty International, but many local organizations, people, persons with albinism themselves have been raising
this issue. I think it's the surge that's really got us all really worried about it.
It's not unique to Malawi, Tanzania's had a problem. And there the government has taken action and we've seen some results.
But you asked how is the government responding to it?
AMANPOUR: In Malawi, yes.
SHETTY: In Malawi, I think one of the good things is they're not in denial because often when Amnesty International raises issues with
governments, the first thing they do is no, no, no, you're not right.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: So they accept that this is happening.
SHETTY: They accept there's a problem.
AMANPOUR: But what about these witch doctors?
What about policing?
What about going out and protecting these people where they live?
SHETTY: That's the issue now because what we're calling on the Malawian government to do -- I mean, it's a good thing they've created a
national task force, they've created a special prosecutor, the president has called on the country to stop this heinous practice.
All of that is good. But it's -- there's a big gap between what the announcements are and the reality on the ground.
There have been about 80 cases which have been reported since November 2014.
So in the last 18 months and --
AMANPOUR: Eighteen cases of deaths?
SHETTY: -- eight-zero cases --
AMANPOUR: Eighty of deaths?
SHETTY: -- not deaths but reported crimes against persons with albinism.
And only when a quarter of them have been resolved.
AMANPOUR: How big a community are they?
SHETTY: You know, the numbers we think are always underreported and not very precise but between 7,000 and 10,000. And this is what's
happening, we're talking about four deaths and abductions just in the last two months.
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SHETTY: But these 10,000 people and their families are living in a climate of fear.
AMANPOUR: But this is grotesque. I mean we talk about the extinction of species and illegal hunting and poaching of elephants and rhinos. The
U.N. is using the word "extinction" to describe the possible peril, the mortal peril, these people are in.
SHETTY: I think from an Amnesty International perspective, the important thing is that it's something which is totally fixable. Tanzania
has done it. So it's really high time the Malawi government does it.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Tell me again how Tanzania did it.
And what is Malawi doing about the witch doctors, who seem to be the biggest market for these?
SHETTY: The criminal gangs, the witch doctors, all of these people, if they feel that there's no deterrent action or if they feel there's no
consequence, then it's going to fuel it.
So our call to the government is very simple, there are three things they need to do.
First and foremost, they need to have much more visible policing, particularly in the rural districts so it has a deterrent effect.
Right now, they're working with community police who are not trained. They don't have forensic capability. The police -- these are like complex
crimes because some of them are also committed by family members themselves.
AMANPOUR: Why?
SHETTY: Either for -- because of prejudice and stigma or because they themselves then collude with these criminal gangs.
AMANPOUR: For money, yes.
SHETTY: So the first thing is to have the visible policing.
The second is that once you know there's a reported crime, you have to take action. And if that doesn't happen, then, as I said, 80 crimes
reported, only 20 which have been convicted or resolved. And of the murders, you refer to murders, only two cases of murders so far have led to
convictions.
AMANPOUR: The measures that Tanzania has taken, how has that affected what's going on?
SHETTY: Well, that's clearly the -- this is the kind of measures we're talking about because it needs better policing.
AMANPOUR: No, but has it cut the level of crime?
SHETTY: Significantly, yes, significantly reduced the abduction and killings. Now it doesn't mean that the stigma is completely gone. And for
the stigma, it's a third element. We talk about policing, we're talking about criminal justice. But the third element is very important, which is
public education.
You need a mass public education and a very --
AMANPOUR: So they're not particularly welcomed in their own community to begin with.
SHETTY: There's communication in families, communities on a national level. Even inside the police force itself. All these ideas that if you
have sex with a woman who is living with albinism, your AIDS problem will be cured.
And if you have the bones or the body parts of these people, that somehow you're going to get well or you're going to get -- you'll have good
luck, all these very strange ideas which need to be really addressed with a public education campaign.
AMANPOUR: Do you fear or is there any evidence that the crackdown in Tanzania has pushed this crime into other countries, pushed it as far as
Malawi?
SHETTY: The last year in 2015, we had a case of a killing of a woman in South Africa. There are many incidents reported also in Mozambique and
Malawi, I wouldn't say that it's pushed -- because it's a very localized -- the criminal gangs, of course, are one of the calls we're making is that
the governments in Southern Africa need to take a regional approach to this because the criminal gangs do cross over.
AMANPOUR: And just very briefly, why do you think the surge is happening now?
SHETTY: I think it's a combination of three things. There's a historical social stigma. But then the poverty levels and the uncertainty
in Malawi right now, which is kind of broad uncertainty beyond the albinism issue, I think, is creating a vacuum. So criminal gangs are operating,
poverty is very extreme.
But the most important thing is that the state is not acting.
AMANPOUR: Well, we're glad to have had you on, Salil Shetty, secretary-general of Amnesty, very few people speak out for this poor,
beleaguered community. So we're glad at least to get the word out.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And talking of this, on the other hand, some humanity on this issue is coming from Kenya, where a campaign of compassion for albinos
began on Twitter, #AlbinismIsJustAColor.
The aim is to show the beauty of people who have this condition as well as to fight for their rights and their safety.
Coming up next, we imagine a world overcoming old rivalries to save one of the most revered religious sites on this planet. From antagonist to
allies -- well, sort of -- we'll explain when we come back.
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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world unified in faith for a change.
In the heart of Jerusalem lies one of Christianity's holiest shrines, it's the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, where millions believe Jesus was
buried. Now for the first time in more than 200 years, all the different Christian denominations that control the site are coming together to give
it new life with a long overdue renovation.
Each part of the church is maintained by a different Christian group: Greek Orthodox, Armenian and Roman Catholic. Though the clergymen who
stroll its halls and preach to the faithful usually get along, on occasion they have, in fact, come to blows -- literally.
For instance, in 2008, when Greek Orthodox and Armenian monks began a brawl inside. But for Christ's sake, they are now putting on a united
faithful front, saving their hallowed ground by finding common ground.
And that is it for our program tonight. Remember, you can now also listen to our podcast, see us online at amanpour.com and follow me on
Facebook and Twitter. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.
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