Return to Transcripts main page

Amanpour

UK Lawmaker Murdered; Interview with Antonio Guterres. Aired 2:20-3p ET

Aired June 17, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Tonight, as Big Ben strikes the top of the hour behind me, a nation stunned and shocked. Britain mourns for rising

political star and a passionate humanitarian, the M.P. Jo Cox, who was gunned on Thursday. We'll go to her constituency in West Yorkshire, and we

hear also from former labour leader Ed Miliband.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ED MILIBAND, LEADER OF THE LABOUR PARTY: She was fearless, she took her positions but she did serve in a friendly, warm, generous, non-hateful way.

And, you know, politics can be too hateful and not respectful enough.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC)

AMANPOUR: One of the causes close to her heart, the plight of refugees, our interview with the former U.N. High Commission of the Refugees Antonio

Guterres, on of the most pressing problems facing Europe right now.

(MUSIC)

Good evening everyone and welcome to the program, I'm Christiane Amanpour outside parliament in London tonight, where politicians and members of the

public will soon gather in a vigil to mourn Jo Cox, she is the british M.P. and rising star who was brutally murdered yesterday in Northern England.

Before and since she was elected last year, Cox was a dedicated humanitarian, once head of policy at Oxfam, as she made clear in her maiden

speech at Westminster just behind me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JO COX, BRITISH LABOUR PARTY POLITICIAN: Our community has been deeply enhanced by immigration. The Irish Catholics across the constituency, all

Muslims (inaudible) or Pakistan, consequently from Kashmir. And while celebrate our diversity, the thing that surprises me time and time again as

I travel around the constituencies that we are far more united and have more in common than that which divides us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And today that constituency is grieved. Prime Minister David Cameron and the opposition leader Jeremy Corbyn traveled to Birstall to pay

their respect in an extraordinary show of unity.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: If we truly want to honor Jo, then what we should do is recognize that her values, service, community,

tolerance, the value she lived by and worked by, those are the values that we need to redouble in our national light in the months and in the years to

come.

JEREMY CORBYN, BRITISH OPPOSITION LEADER: Jo was an exceptional, wonderful, very talented woman, taken from us in her early 40s when she has

so much to give and so much of her life ahead of her. It's a tragedy beyond tragedy what has happened yesterday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And as prayers are being held now in the parliament behind me, there are new details about Tommy Mair, the only suspect in her murder.

It's emerged that he bought neo-nazi literature from the United States and subscribed to a propertied (ph)from South Africa, and there are also eye

witness reports that he shouted, "Britain first" before opening fire.

Tonight, police say they are investigating whether he was linked to right- wing extremism. We're also learning about Jo Cox's last words, apparently according to her assistant she said, "My pain is too much." Fazila Aswat

held her as she was dyeing. That is according to her assistant's father in an interview with our CNN affiliate ITV News.

It has shocked the nation where this kind of violence is extremely rare, in the midst of a contentious campaign about the E.U., and Jo Cox was a strong

campaigner for Britain remaining inside the E.U.

Parliament here behind me is being recalled from its recess on Monday to pay tribute. And among those attending tonight's vigil at parliament

square is the former labour party leader Ed Miliband. He joined me here to talk about Jo Cox just a short while ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Ed Miliband, welcome to the program. What did this mean for Britain, this moment, this -- the assassination of what everybody says was

rising star that building behind us?

MILIBAND: It's a tragic loss, and that's what the most important above all, it's a tragic loss for -- to her family, her husband Brendan, for her

kids, her family. It's a tragic loss for our party, and it robs us of somebody who had a unique combination.

[14:05:00] And even though she's only been in the parliament in a year or so, a unique combination of passion for her causes, including what was

happening in Syria, refugee written (ph) background, working refugees and conflict, and also kindness and warmth and generosity. And, you know, this

is something that we don't see in Britain. And I think all of us our -- frankly the world is in a state of shock.

AMANPOUR: She was very strong on Syria, she even crossed the aisle and meet up with M.P. Andrew Mitchell, and they chaired a Syria group. And he

wrote that, you know, she didn't look at me like some sort of wicked enemy, she crossed the line and we really did things together. That also is quite

rare isn't it, particularly in the divisive times that we live in.

MILIBAND: Well, wrote incredibly movingly, Andrew Mitchell, and that was Jo. She came here not to further her career but to further her causes, you

know, her causes which -- she's been an Ox fan for eight or nine years. She head passionately about what was happening to -- in Syria and

particularly Syrian children, and did spoke incredibly movingly in the House of Commons about that, and she didn't care who she was going to work

because she wanted to further that cause. And that's who she was, fearless, stood up for her principles, and does shine a light on, you know,

what politics can be and who politicians can be.

AMANPOUR: You say that and she obviously was somebody who presented the best, the most courageous face of politics, she exemplified public service,

at a time when politicians like journalist and others are regarded very, very poorly by the general public. What can you all politicians do to

reclaim that trust, that people should have in you, because you're meant to be working on everybody's behalf ...

MILIBAND: Well, in a way I think it's a moment of reflection for politics and for the country. For politics it's about the tone of our debate. One

of the things about Jo as I said was that, she was fearless, she took her positions but she did so in our friendly, warm, generous, non-hateful way.

And, you know, politics can be too hateful and not respectful enough.

And then for the country, there's a -- it shone a light on what M.P. -- not just Jo, but M.P.s of all parties, not my party, you know, all parties

across -- the vast majority of them, of come into politics for the right reasons, not the reasons because they want to make the world a better place

as they see it. And, you know, they're terrible thing Christiane, this is a woman who had worked in some of the most dangerous areas of the world,

areas that you know better than I, and she was just doing her duty in her own constituency, what she want fought with a safe place for her.

AMANPOUR: It is really horrific to think about what happened to her doing the normal constituency work. But also she was a proud supporter of

immigration, of tolerance, you know, talking about the positive contribution to Great Britain of the immigrant community, at a time when

frankly immigration is being used for fear and hate mongering during this E.U. referendum. What are your thoughts on that?

MILIBAND: Well the way I would put it was that Jo was somebody who's for love not hate. And we got to honor that legacy on our own way. But I

think it's incredibly important, this is not about the referendum campaign, this is quite in my view separate from that, you know, we don't know what

was in the mind of the person that killed her. I'm sure that will emerge in the days and weeks ahead.

Well I think this is a moment sort of a reflection for all of us about the tune of our politics and about what Jo stood for and how we can honor that

legacy.

AMANPOUR: Well she did stand for remain and the referendum is a few days from now. Do you think your party, the labour party has done all that it

can to honor her legacy, and what you apparently all believe in, remain in the E.U.?

MILIBAND: Well I do, but I also know that once the reflection is over and before next Thursday, we've got to get back out there and we got to make

our case, make our case in a respectful way, respectful of our opponents in the right tune, but we've got to make our case because the country faces an

important decision, a very important decision about its future, not just the general election but a more important decision that that.

AMANPOUR: Ed Miliband, thank you very much indeed.

MILIBAND: Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So Caroline Flint is a local M.P. the region and she was also a close colleague of Jo Cox, and she joins us live now from Birstall, West

Yorkshire where tributes have been paid throughout the day, and of course where Jo was gunned down yesterday.

Caroline, thank you for joining us again, we talked to you yesterday as you're on your day to Birstall, to go to the church and to gather with all

the mourners there. How are you all and your colleagues holding up today?

CAROLINE FLINT, BRITISH LABOUR PARTY POLITICIAN: I think everybody is still in a state of shock and it's still really hard to absorb what really

happened, and I think, you know, there's been a lot of a discussion with colleagues.

[14:10:03] But also I think, you know, today, you know, a number of people in my constituency who contacted me, but also talking with my staff in my

office, in my constituency too. But I think as the minister (ph) said, shock and concern but also grieving about what's happened.

AMANPOUR: And has -- have any of you seen Brandon Cox, her husband how -- do you know how the family is coping?

FLINT: I think all the people close to her -- I do know that earlier today Brandon launched a donation site in Jo's memory -- cause being held there.

Those causes are about protecting, you know, people caught up in the conflict in Syria, fighting lawlessness (ph) and fighting extremism, and so

we can, you know, on Jo's memory and support what she supported, compassion and not hate, and that's something very positive that the family has helped

to organize today.

AMANPOUR: Well, you heard what we reported that the police are telling CNN that they are investigating whether the killer, the suspect who they have

in custody has ties to right-wing extremism. What is your reaction to that and do you have any further information as to the investigation?

FLINT: Well obviously the investigation, I don't have any further information Christiane, but on a more winder point, I would say that what

is worrying is how individuals maybe were on their own but maybe through social media in contact with others with similar views, and become obsessed

about what they believe in, in a very distorted way. And, has such an absolute view that somehow they are right, which plays into them how they

direct their grievances against individuals and others.

And, that is a very worrying aspects I think of what we literate (ph) today, and there have been -- there is a review going on, a security review

for all members of the parliament to think about in terms of how they handle different forms of abuse online or worries about or concerns about

individuals who maybe a causing concerns for their staff and for themselves. But it is -- you know, when I first became an M.P. in '79, we

didn't have e-mail, we didn't have social media, it seems another world compared to today.

And I think part, the different today is that I'm not sure if there's people who have more hate than people in the past, but there are certainly

are means in which they can reach and M.P. or use social media, in a way that it's intolerance and doesn't actually support the democratic structure

we have. And, in my hope out of this Christiane is there actually something today is that people talking about the good work that Jo did as

an M.P. and other M.P. do. And, that's something what we should worth holding and piece (ph) to account, another public figure, never lose sight

of what is precious about our democracy and Jo symbolized that so well.

AMANPOUR: Indeed, Caroline Flint, thank you so much for joining us tonight as the morning continues. And let's not forget that both sides in this

referendum have suspended their campaigning until further notice. Jo Cox along with Caroline Flint were very committed members, and Caroline still

is, to the remain campaign, and you heard Ed Miliband the former Labour Party saying, that when this morning is over, that campaign should be

pursued without hate, with respect, and in the public domain so that it can be continued without any divisions.

Jo Cox was clear, as I said that Britain should do more for refugees fleeing the Syria War, making her stand on Twitter.

Coming up next, my interview with the former U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees Antonio Guterres, on the divisive issue of immigration in the E.U.

referendum. And, close to Jo's heart, uniting against intolerance and xenophobia.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:15:00]

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program from the Houses of Parliament here at Westminster. It is a dark day for Great Britain, the little light

coming from heartfelt brief and outpouring of emotion and flowers that have been laid at Parliament Square in anticipation of a candlelit vigil tonight

for the assassinated M.P. Jo Cox. She was companionate, she stood up for refugees and she even argued for military intervention on behalf of Syrian

civilians.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COX: On refugees, given the escalation of the violence in Aleppo and the lack of medical care available there now, what further can the U.K. do to

get the most vulnerable people out of harm's way? And surely, given what we know about the horror that many of the refugee children in Europe have

fled, isn't it time to end the government's shameful refusal to give unaccompanied children sanctuary here in the U.K.?

I don't believe that either President Obama or the Prime Minister tried to do harm in Syria, but as I said Mr. Speaker, sometimes all it takes for

evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: A strong moral voice indeed. Jo Cox regularly also extolled the positive contribution of Britain's immigrant community, a subject that's

dominated anti-immigration supporters in the Brexit side in this E.U. referendum. Before news of Jo's shocking assassination came true to us

yesterday, I was speaking to the former Portuguese Prime Minister about all of these. He spent 10 years also as the United Nation's high commissioner

for refugees and he's now in the running to become the next U.N. Secretary General. Mr. Guterres, welcome to the program.

You're here in a midst of a very, very emotional debate on Britain staying in our out of the E.U. You are a European. You were a prime minister of

your country, in Portugal. Angela Merkel the Chancellor of German has said, "Don't think that you'll be able to have the same influence if you're

not at the table." So what is the risk for Britain and for Europe if Britain is not at the foreign policy table?

ANTONIO GUTERRES, FORMER PORTUGUESE PRIME MINISTER: If you look at the world, foreign relations have been changing. The role of Europe today is

not comparable to what it was in the '90s or the early 20th century. So, when the U.K. heads to continental Europe, I think that it's not a zero

some gate. It's I think both see their influence increasing. First U.K. (inaudible) in decisions taken about the future of the European Union, and

second the fact that European Union without U.K. is much less relevant in today's world than a European Union with U.K.

And U.K. alone also will have difficulties in having the real aid funds in what other global issues in today's world.

AMANPOUR: This debate and Europe at the moment -- actually even in the United States is revolving around immigration, it's a very emotional fact

for people in our country. Are you surprised that this is causing such political upheaval all over, including probably deciding the fate of this

referendum?

GUTERRES: I think that this debate has been very strong influence by what happened last year. And all of sudden Europe was confronted with a big

increase in the number of people coming especially into the shores of Greece. Now, the fact is that Europe was not prepared for that. And, even

if since have been predicted, but it was not prepared for that and it had difficulties in putting itself together in order to give a combined

European answer that will be able to manage the situation.

AMANPOUR: Why did it have so many difficulties -- there's been a lot of criticism that this 500 strong glock (ph), all these countries, they could

have done it but they didn't.

[14:20:08] GUTERRES: We were talking about 1 million people that came, and that is clearly a sizable movement, but we are talking about 500 million,

more than 500 million citizens of the European Union. Which means that, if these would have been properly managed, with a huge reception capacity,

with adequate screening, including security screening, and then with a distribution according to the possibilities of the different European

countries without people moving chaotically through the Balkans.

What frightens many people, because many of European citizens looking at that chaotic movement, nobody was in charge, they thought are going to be

invaded. Now if this will be properly organized, going by plane to different destinations in Europe, nothing like this would have happened.

And today probably Europe would celebrating the success of its refugee policy, instead of being involved in a debate that is very emotional,

sometimes not clear, very irrational on migration.

Migration has been there forever, since ever, migration is in my opinion part of the solution of the global problems. And in a continent like

Europe, in which we have fertility indexes in most of the countries below 1.5.

AMANPOUR: You're saying we need it because ...

GUTERRES: Migration is part of the solution of European problem.

AMANPOUR: Regarding Turkey, obviously is playing a big deal, a big role in this refugee crisis but for Britain, the lead campaign has raised the

specter (ph) of Turkey imminently joining the E.U. and 76 million Turks heading for this land, for Great Britain. From your perspective, is

Turkey anywhere close to joining the E.U.?

GUTERRES: I'd say not, and I'd say unfortunately not, in the sense that when these -- in the past was discussed, there was a commitment by Europe

to Turkey, that has to do with the way the Turkish democracy works, with the way minorities are respected. I mean, there's such a number of

conditions that are strongly related to what is a modern democratic society. If those criteria would be respected by Turkey, Turkey would

naturally annex to the European Union.

But at the moment, I believe that the message that came from several European countries was that even if Turkey would be able to meet all these

criteria, probably Turkey would never be able to join. And I think this has worked very negatively in Turkey. And this has helped all those in

Turkey that didn't want to move into European way of organizing the state and the society. And so, to a certain extent, I think we are today more

far from annexation of Turkey that what we would a few years ago.

AMANPOUR: What do you feel about the rising nationalism, the populism? I mean there are all these insurgent groups in various countries across

Europe, which would like to see Europe break apart.

GUTERRES: I would say that for the first time, it would be unlikely (ph), probably the most important contribution of Europe towards civilization,

(inaudible). These values are being put into question. We are moving into the domain of the irrationality. And, tolerance is being lost, societies

are not becoming multiethnic, multicultural, multi-religious. And we need to understand that this is a positive thing, that diversity is richness not

a threat.

Societies are endangered of loosing these character of diversity and harmony. And so I think it's necessary to have a very strong investment.

Investment in social collision, in solidarity, in creating also the conditions for the different communities of the country to whom they

belong. And at the same time it's necessary to be able to very firm in stressing the doubts (ph) against xenophobia, against intolerance, and also

against violent extremism.

AMANPOUR: On that note Antonio Guterres, thanks you so much for being here.

GUTERRES: Thank you very much.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:25:00]

AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, we've been reporting, as we have all day, that it is so hard to imagine a world without people like Jo Cox. She was

authentic human being, she had humanitarian passion and courageous dedication to the world's disposed, she embodied the very essence of public

service right to her dying day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COX: I (inaudible) and I could not be proud of that. I'm proud I was made in Yorkshire and I'm proud of the things that we make in Yorkshire.

(MUSIC)

NATHAN CULLEN, CANADIAN HOUSE OF COMMONS MEMBER: Jo used her voice for those who have none. She dedicated her passion to those who needed it most

and she harnessed her limitless love even if and especially for those who allowed hate to consume them.

(MUSIC)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For the first in many, many years we actually had an M.P. who was interested (ph) and merciful, an interest of mercy.

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: The death of Jo Cox has sparked an outpour of appreciation from members of parliament. On Twitter, #thankyoump is trending. It's been

used by many to tell others of the good work their local M.P. is doing for their community. Jo Cox wasn't just a rising political star, she was a

hardworking mother of two who championed woman's rights as well, and Hillary Clinton has paid tribute to her, saying, "It is critical that the

United States and Britain, two of the world's oldest and greatest democracies stand together against hatred and violence. This is how we

must honor Jo Cox, by rejecting bigotry in all its forms."

And that is it for our program tonight, from Westminster, good night.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END