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Brexit Financial Fallout; Second Scottish Independence Referendum?. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired June 27, 2016 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Tonight, from Westminster in London, the financial fallout continues as the pound plunges with 31-year low. While
the prime minister condemns, racist, hate crimes after Brexit and calls a quorum.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: In the past few days we've seen despicable gravity daubed on a Polish community centre. We've seen verbal
abuse hurled against individuals because they're members of ethnic minorities. Let's remember, these people have come here and made a
wonderful contribution to our country.
We will not stand for hate crime or these kinds of attacks, they must be stumped out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Are the Brexiters now backtracking from their promises? Lead campaign MEP Daniel Hannan joins me.
What now for the union? Scotland's role, the Scottish M.P. and, a son of immigrants itself Humza Yousaf will join me.
And the journalist, Matthew Paris on Boris Johnson, and how he'll ride a political crisis not seen in decades.
(MUSIC)
AMANPOUR: Good evening everyone and welcome to the program, I'm Christiane Amanpour live at the Palace of Westminster, the Houses of Parliament behind
me. The decision is made but the dust is far from settled. The United Kingdom and the world are still trying to figure out what Brexit from the
European Union actually means. Appearing before the parliament for the first time since the referendum, Prime Minister David Cameron who will soon
step down said that formal negotiations to leave will not be triggered until his successor is in place in September.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAMERON: It is going to be difficult. We've already seen that there are going to be adjustments within our economy, complex constitutional issues,
and challenging new negotiation to undertake with Europe. But I am clear and the cabinet agreed this morning that the decision must be accepted and
the process of implementing the decision in the best possible way must now begin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Now, European leaders may want to accelerate that timetable but Cameron announced a formal committee together, all the information required
for a divorce, which he called the most difficult task for the British civil service in decades.
Incredibly there seems to have been no plan by the leaders, and its chief architect Michael Gove and Boris Johnson weren't even in parliament today.
The jockeying has begun the succeed the Prime Minister, and the favorite Boris Johnson has spoken only through this weekly newspaper column, and
briefly to reporters outside his home in North London. Here's what he said this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH CONSERVATIVE M.P.: It's clear now that "Project Fear" is over, there's not going to be an emergency budget. People's
pensions are safe, the pound is stable, the markets are stable, I think that is all very good news.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Just which pound he's talking about is unclear because it has been anything but stable. Loosing 12 percent of its value since the Brexit
vote, which is a 30-year low. And markets are still in disarray, the Dow Jones still lose 1.5 percent today. The U.S. foreign secretary John Kerry
is in London and together with his British counterpart Phillip Hammond reaffirmed the two country's special relationship.
I'm joined now by Daniel Hannan, he's a conservative MEP who backed the leave campaign and who says he's never felt more proud to be British.
Welcome back to the program Daniel Hannan.
DANIEL HANNAN, BRITISH MEMBER OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT: Thank you ...
AMANPOUR: So proud to be British, and of course a lot people are saying, a new dawn independence day, but the truth is, that all day the question is
being asked, what is the plan. And we're not hearing it from the main Brexit leaders. We hear the Prime Minister lay out a plan, the
negotiations and pre-negotiations. What is the plan?
HANNAN: Well, he is still the prime minister, so you're in a way assigning responsibility without power. You're saying, what do we want to do when
we're not in office, right?
AMANPOUR: So basically he has to -- the guy who lost has to figure out your ...
HANNAN: I would have liked him to have appointed one of the leave campaigners as the person in charge of the negotiation, I was hoping that
would happen today and then we could have got going with the process. But I don't think there's any secret about what the plan is, it's a
repatriation of power. We have to of course accept the constraint of a very narrow result, 48 percent of British people voted for no change, we
can't just wish that fact away, we have to respect their opinions.
Two of the four nations within the U.K. voted for the status quo, and so we may have to temper what we're doing and go for a more gradual and more
phased repatriation of power while leaving some of the existing stuff in place.
[14:05:05] AMANPOUR: Is there distinct though -- nine hearing, you know, a very mush softer, gentler version of what you proposed during the campaign,
temper some of the stuff, like what? Like immigration? Because you yourself have sort of step back, so is Boris Johnson.
HANNAN: Hang on, what have I said ...
AMANPOUR: You have said ...
HANNAN: Yes.
AMANPOUR: ... that ...
HANNAN: That we want control back ...
AMANPOUR: No, no, you have said that maybe ...
HANNAN: When did I never said that?
AMANPOUR: Listen, and you know and you've been through all of these on other channels, the reason people voted, the majority of them, and I can
play you what they've said ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNAN: ... you just accused me doing a U-turn ...
AMANPOUR: No, backtracking ...
HANNAN: OK, you've accused me backtracking. When I have ever said anything ...
AMANPOUR: You have said and your lead campaign, and you are the lead spokesman of the leave campaign that immigration in the free flow of
movement would be ...
HANNAN: I've never ever said that, I've written a book called, "Why Vote Leave" ...
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Would you agree that the leave campaign main objective in terms of sovereignty ...
HANNAN: Before I answer would you please retract ...
AMANPOUR: No, I'm not retracting anything.
HANNAN: Then, people at home can Google this, they can look at what I've said and they can see what is fair. But you to accuse me of having done
...
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you, are you then saying that this immigration is going to be much lighter than you all promised?
HANNAN: I have never ever made any comment on numbers ever. On the contrary I've said ...
AMANPOUR: No you've said no free movement ...
HANNAN: What we said is we would take back control. Now what that means is that a foreign court should no longer get to determine who can reside in
this country, who can enter this country, that that should be a question for parliamentary sovereignty. We are clear about that.
AMANPOUR: So you're saying that parliamentary sovereignty could quite easily allow the same number of people to keep coming in?
HANNAN: That will be a decision for parliament, that's how democracy works.
AMANPOUR: But this whole thing was run ...
HANNAN: You guys have been shouting racist so long you're not listening to what we actually say.
AMANPOUR: Did I say that?
HANNAN: When I have ever say made immigration ...
AMANPOUR: Did I say that?
HANNAN: You have accused me backtracking. And I want you give me one bit of evidence, did I ever said anything ...
AMANPOUR: Yeah, let me play you sound byte, you refused -- but I'm going to tell you what they say of why people say they voted for leave mostly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why are you elated?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's all about immigration, it's not about trade, Europe, anything like that. It's all about immigration. It's to stop that
Muslims from coming into this country, as simple as that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think you've voted to leave the E.U. to leave Muslims come into the country?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To stop immigration.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But the movement of people in Europe fair at all (ph), but not from Africa, Saudi, Iraq, everywhere else, it's all wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) everything to Germany, my parents, my grandparents fought for England to be free and it's about time that we'll
come back to be free.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Foreigners keep coming, and that's all I've got say actually.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, just tell me what you plan for immigration because you know and we've all know, because we've done this endlessly for months. You even
said -- your group even said that if we have to leave the single market, in order not to have the free flow of labor, and people would have to leave
the single market, now they're backtracking all that.
HANNAN: This is a global country, a merchant country, a maritime country. We've always been connected to every continent and archipelago, right? The
argument against the E.U. is that it's in decline and that we can do better raising our eyes to more opulent market services. That has been my
argument throughout on every interview, every speech, and I've written a book, called "Why Vote Leave" where it's all set out. You will not find
any argument ...
AMANPOUR: But you did Boris Johnson and you did ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNAN: If I was relying on CNN as my only source of evidence, I would think that this was nativist vote, a protectionist vote, it's the opposite
...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNAN: ... we can do better than just a regional ...
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Are you concerned about some of the post-Brexit hate crimes, the graffiti, the hurling of insults ...
HANNAN: Oh come on, and that's not our fault.
AMANPOUR: The prime minister started ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNAN: ... in every country ...
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: As a politician, are you concern about some of the fallout ...
HANNAN: In every society you have some racist idiots. But for you to suggest, without any connection that this is somehow connected to the
campaign, that you couldn't have had that there were no racist in Britain before, that there are no ...
AMANPOUR: Daniel that's not what I was saying, I said, are you concerned about the fallout and the hate crime ...
HANNAN: Why assume there is fallout? Why assume there is fallout?
(CROSSTALK)
[14:10:00] AMANPOUR: Daniel, let's not be tautological here, you haven't voted out ...
HANNAN: What you are suggesting is outrageous, what you are suggesting is that there is a connection between people who voted for more democracy and
some of ...
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: We have the evidence and I put it on the air ...
HANNAN: What evidence, you show me a link between the vote and ...
AMANPOUR: We will show you the graffiti on the polish community ...
HANNAN: There are some bad people, right? Of course we condemn that but ...
AMANPOUR: 57 percent rise in hate crimes according to police.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: According to the police here, I'm not making it up. I'm just asking you, are you concern ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNAN: Well of course, that goes with what I'm saying, why do I need to say that?
AMANPOUR: You won't answer the other one. Now let me ask you this about Boris Johnson, OK? Who's maybe, at least he's trying to be the next prime
minister and party leader. This is what he said in his column which is written here, he hasn't gone out and made a big vision speech or big plan
speech, he's written it in a column for which he gets paid a lot of money.
He said, "I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe, and always will be. There will still be intense and intensifying European
cooperation and partnership in a huge number of fields. There will continue to be free trade and access to the single market. Britain is and
always will be a great European power, offering top-table opinions and giving leadership on everything from foreign policy to defense, to counter-
terrorism and intelligence-sharing."
You see I thought this referendum was about disassociating from the E.U.
HANNAN: I get that you thought that. You were evidently not listening to us.
AMANPOUR: So it wasn't.
HANNAN: Correct.
AMANPOUR: It wasn't about disassociating from the E.U.
HANNAN: May I tell you what it was about without interruption?
AMANPOUR: Please. Yes.
HANNAN: It was about an internationalist global Britain, a multi-regulated Britain, a freer Britain and a mode democratic Britain, one that is
interested and engaged with every continent including Europe. I speak French, I speak Spanish, I lived and worked all over Europe, I have
absolutely no -- with collaborating with our immediate neighbors.
AMANPOUR: I understand that. How do you expect to be a leader at all these tables when you're not part of the E.U. because they have ...
HANNAN: It's the largest economy in the world where ...
AMANPOUR: OK.
HANNAN: ... permanency told us, on the U.N. security council, I don't think we need to moderate all our foreign policy through Mrs. Mogherini.
But the way -- the implication here that people have just voted for closing doors, for protectionism, which was -- has been theme (ph) is just the
opposite of what we were actually campaigning on. We were making a liberal argument for a global engaged international Britain, and we want to look
beyond a declining innovated Euro zone to the growing markets of other field where we have connections.
AMANPOUR: All right, well we will continue this conversation. Daniel Hannan, thank you very much indeed for joining me tonight.
HANNAN: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Coming up, we go north of the border to Scotland, voting to remain there but harness out for now, how serious is the possibility of a
second Scottish independence referendum? The SNP politician Humza Yousaf will join us from Glasgow next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. So will the United Kingdom soon be the "Divided Kingdom?" Scotland wants to stay in the E.U., and Scottish
officials have already started to explore how best to do that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[14:15:00] ANGUS ROBERSTON, BRITISH PARLIAMENT MEMBER: It really, really maters to us that we live in an outward-looking country, not a diminished
little Britain. We are the European country and we will stay a European country. And if that means we have to have an independence referendum to
protect Scotland then so be it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So that was in parliament here behind me earlier this afternoon. Now, Humza Yousaf belongs to the Scottish Nationalist Party, he's in the
parliament out there and joins me from Glasgow.
Humza Yousaf, welcome to the program. So you've been seeing all the fallout since this Brexit referendum, and you've also, your own leader is
talking about exploring and putting into paper for somehow to stay in the E.U. What's the realistic possibility of that Humza?
HUMZA YOUSAF, SCOTTISH NATIONAL PARTY POLITICIAN: Well, first of all, it's a pleasure to be in your program and, I'm still tacking my jaw off the
floor from your last interview with your last guest. I have say it has been an example of how tumultuous the situation is down in Westminster --
and the Scottish government has to be -- to provide some kind of leadership, to forward a plan, to show some determination and some focus
because in Scotland, we overwhelmingly voted to remain in the European Union.
62 percent, every single local authority voted to stay in the European Union. So our job as the Scottish has to be to negotiate with Brussels,
negotiate with the member states, negotiate of course with the U.K. government and other stakeholders about we can best protect Scotland's
place within the European Union. And all options are on the table Christiane, all options, including of course potentially Scotland becoming
an independent country.
AMANPOUR: You know, we all want to know soon that could be, but I understand that the first minister is not going to put a date on that. But
she also has talked, and others out there have talked about potentially blocking the Brexit in parliament, is that possible? Walk me through that,
would that happen?
YOUSAF: I think we've got to be a bit careful about the language. If something impacts a piece of legislation from the U.K. government impacts
on Scotland, traditionally there will be something passed called the legislative consent motion, now all the first minister has say there's a --
she has a job and we have job as Scottish parliamentarians, to vote the way -- out constituents in country have demanded us to. And they've demanded
that we stay within the European Union.
Therefore if a legislative consent motion comes up by the Scottish parliament, people reject it. We absolutely reject (ph) it because Scots
voted overwhelmingly, 62 percent to stay within the European Union. Does that mean that will block Brexit or not? That's a conversation that legal
experts and international experts and domestic constitutional legal experts will have and not one that I can comment on at this stage any further.
AMANPOUR: Are you -- you obviously heard what David Cameron said in parliament this afternoon, as well as all the other, you know, parties to,
you know, the future of this situation. Yet, he said he would also consult with Wales and Scotland. Do you feel you're going to have a big enough
voice?
YOUSAF: Well look, we come with a big enough mandate, and we have said throughout this campaign, a year before this campaign started, that it
would be utterly democratically indefensible that -- during the Scottish referendum we were told we were family of nations, we all had an equal
voice, but it would be democratically unacceptable that Scotland was dragged out of the European Union against its will.
Now David Cameron is the Prime Minister, although we will talk to him as long as he's in charge of course, what we will do and what we will seek to
do is negotiate directly with Brussels, and start conversations directly with member states. And already we're hearing from very senior politicians
in Brussels, some very warm hearts (ph) towards Scotland about exploring the options. As I said independence is not (inaudible), there's some
options on the table, but our starting point must always be to protect Scotland's place within the European Union, and in that respect, new
options are off the table.
AMANPOUR: Humza you said you are, you know, the son of immigrant parents, you have seen some of these hate crimes that have been committed since the
Brexit vote, you heard how vigorously Daniel Hannan rejected that linkage, obviously the police have told us that there have been a 57 percent jump in
these kind of crimes since the Brexit vote. Does that concern you and do you believe that immigration was a big part of the official lead campaigns
platform?
HANNAN: I thought Daniel Hannan's denial has head in the sand over your questioning was utterly outrageous, to, you know, hear the statistics from
the police, over 57 percent increase in the last 48 to 72 hours post the Brexit of hate crime, an increase in hate crime of that extent. And to
think it has absolutely nothing to do and to say, oh we always have racist in our country anyway was an absolute abdication of responsibility from a
very senior politician in Daniel Hannan.
So I think he should be ashamed of himself for that. There's no -- as far as I'm concerned I speak to relatives and friends whether in Manchester,
London and Birmingham over the last few days and they absolutely hear it.
[14:20:06] They hear words and racist terms that they haven't had since the '80s, maybe even the '70s. So yes, to answer your first part of your
question I'm deeply, deeply concerned. The Prime Minister made a strong statement, I saw about that but he needs to do more than just make a strong
statement, he needs to convene the appropriate stakeholders and show that he will not tolerate this (ph).
In terms of the second part of your question, there is no doubt from all the doors I knocked and all the people I spoke to, that -- my anecdotal
evidence, the vast, vast majority of those who voted leave were doing so because of the scare stories around immigration, which were unfounded,
which were unfortunate. I'm afraid, very afraid we may have opened up an inflamed tension amongst communities that didn't exist previously.
AMANPOUR: Well on that note, Humza Yousaf from Glasgow, thank you very much. And everybody now calling for tolerance and restraint as this
referendum result gets implemented.
When we come back, we look to the future of the British government as the conservative party bids fairly to Prime Minister David Cameron. We'll take
a closer look at Boris Johnson, the man who would be king, or at least prime minister. That's after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. The odds on favorite to be the next prime minister is the face of Brexit Boris Johnson. But many have
serious doubts about his ability to govern, especially given his backtracking contradictory comments today. Who really is the man behind
the public entertainer?
The British journalist and former conservative M.P. Matthew Parris joins me now. So, journalist and former M.P. the same thing as Boris Johnson ...
MATTHEW PARRIS, BRITISH FORMER CONSERVATIVE M.P.: But in the other direction.
AMANPOUR: In the other direction. So you have been quite harsh on Boris Johnson ...
PARRIS: Yes.
AMANPOUR: In fact you wrote after the Brexit vote, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Duncan Smith propped up by Nigel Farage are not viable as a new
British government, they just aren't. Trust me, this will be shamble.
PARRIS: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Why?
PARRIS: Well it be a shamble because they've given an impression to the electorate, to the voters about what leave means, that they have no ideas
themselves what sort of deal they want to negotiate. They don't agree among themselves, what deal they want to negotiate and they have mislead a
lot of voters into thinking that we're going to for instance stop immigration, they can't possibly do that.
In his article this morning, Boris Johnson said we're looking to have free and open trading with the European single market, but that's up to the
European single market, that's very unlikely. So there's ...
AMANPOUR: You saw we had a very heated argument with one of the architects of the lead campaign who's probably more (inaudible) but certainly is part
of the campaign, that promise people that there would be a reduction in immigration.
PARRIS: Daniel Hannan the MEP has always very careful himself not to say anything inflammatory and I don't think himself, he believes that inflation
-- that immigration is a bad thing.
[14:25:07] But he has become associated with move (ph) that have given the public the impression that we're going to bring down the hatches. In a
way, I'm not the first person to say this referendum was about whether we leave the house we're in, a move to another house. We know the house we're
in, so we know what saying remain meant, it meant staying where we are. But we don't know the house we're moving into, and the architects of that
house do not exist, they haven't thought about it.
AMANPOUR: Well I was going to ask you, do you think they didn't expect to win? I was really stunned in the early hours of Thursday when the face and
the voice of the victory was Nigel Farage who's not part of the official campaign but certainly was claiming victory. No sign of Boris Johnson,
Michael Gove, anything, even today in parliament. And we've only have really heard from Boris Johnson in a printed article, what's going on
underneath?
PARRIS: I would have thought they woke up on the morning after the referendum and thought, "Oh my goodness we didn't win did we? What are
going to do now?" I didn't think they really expect to win, they expected to make a grand statement and to carry on the battle after loosing. And
they thought well if we will that's just so great, we'll think about what we'll do with it afterwards. And now they've got it and it's not going to
be easy.
AMANPOUR: It's not going to be easy at all as we've seen, and a big call for, you know, where is the plan. But tell me a little bit more about
Boris Johnson because he was -- I believe editor or you editor, you both worked together ...
PARRIS: He was editor of a magazine which I read, and a very good editor he was. He's one of the best editors The Spectator has ever had. He's one
of the best columnists in (inaudible), he's one of the best speech makers at conservative party, conferences. He is a wonderful entertainer, he's a
highly intelligent man, he pretends to be clown, a buffoon but he's not. He's a highly intelligent man but he has never actually run anything in his
life.
He's been mayor of London but you don't very much as mayor of London. He's been sacked for lying by The Times, he's been sacked by Michael Howard,
leader of the conservative party for lying. He is likely an exuberant journalist who doesn't always think to hard about -- for his sources.
AMANPOUR: So what do you think is going to happen? I mean, I was stunned that he wasn't in parliament today, I've been told that maybe Michael Gove
was there but certainly out of sight. I mean he's a cabinet minister, others were sitting, even Brexit ones around the Prime Minister. So, do
you think it's like -- it's fear?
PARRIS: It's strange, we couldn't see Michael Gove, it true and some members of parliament complained he wasn't that, he was just behind the
speaker's chair, and actually was very hard to get it, it was crowded. So, that maybe his excuse, Boris has to excuse at all.
I think they are afraid, I think they're very afraid what they've unleashed. They're looking at the markets, today they're looking at the
value of the pound, they're looking at the hungry sheep, their voters who are waiting to hear what it is we're going to do, where we're going to go
and they don't know.
AMANPOUR: So very, very briefly, what do you think we're going to see next in the next day or two?
PARRIS: I think we're going to see buyer's remorse, I think we're going to see a gradual scaling down of the ambitions of the lead campaign. Just
something a little bit like Norway where you pay in, you join a single market but you have to say over it. And when they realize -- you still
have no control on immigration at all, when they realize that's all they've got they'll wonder why they voted for it.
AMANPOUR: Matthew Paris, thank you very much indeed for joining us tonight. And that is all the time we have tonight. That's it for our
program. Thanks for watching, and goodbye from Westminster.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
