Return to Transcripts main page
Amanpour
Teachers Across America on Strike; Pedro Noguera, Distinguished Professor of Education, UCLA, and Nate Bowling, 2016 Washington State Teacher of the Year, are Interviewed about Teacher going on Strikes and Education; Racial Struggle in Athletes; Gillian Anderson Stars in "All About Eve"; Gillian Anderson, Actress, is Interviewed About Her New Film, "All About Eve." Aired 1-2p ET
Aired July 02, 2019 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:00:00] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Today, we're looking back at some of
our favorite interviews from this year. So, here's what's coming up.
Across America, tens of thousands of teachers are walking out of their classrooms. We look at what's driving these educators to strike.
Then, Gillian Anderson in a cutting-edge role written 70 years ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GILLIAN ANDERSON, ACTRESS: Fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Taking on the character Bette Davis immortalized on screen in "All About Eve."
And finally, little Steven Van Zandt, Bruce Springsteen's wingman and Tony Soprano's henchman talks to our Walter Isaacson.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
A tsunami of teacher strikes all across America is exposing a bitter truth. The country's educational system is torn and frayed, with class sizes
growing and budgets plummeting. Teachers have hit a wall. So, they're walking out of their classrooms and parents are right by their side.
Already, this year, there were strikes in Colorado, California and West Virginia, with teachers threatening more walkouts in the coming weeks. It
is a question of basic priorities; education money is pouring out of the already underfunded public schools and into charter and private schools in
the name of "school choice"
Meanwhile, state and local spending on prisons is rising at triple the rate of funding for children's education.
Pedro Noguera, distinguished professor of education at UCLA is an expert on issues of race and educational equality. And Nate Bowling is one of
America's great teaches, he was a finalist for National Teacher of the year in 2016 and he himself went on a school strike in Tacoma, Washington last
September.
Professor Pedro Noguera and also, Nate Bowling, thank you very much for joining us.
Let me start with you, Professor. This is quite an amazing phenomenon. You've got hundreds of thousands of teachers in different states striking
and they've been doing so for quite a long time. Is there -- has there as the anything like it? Is this sort of unprecedented?
PEDRO NOGUERA, DISTINGUISHED PROFESSOR OF EDUCATION, UCLA: It is a precedented. We have seen isolated actions in different communities across
the country at various times but to have these many strikes in -- this many different parts of the country at once is truly unprecedented and it's a
sign that many teachers are very frustrated at the State of Public Education.
AMANPOUR: And just to expand on that, it is connective, so to speak? They're all striking for pretty much the same things and I know there are
several issues that are at stake. But first, let me focus on conditions in the schools, in the classrooms. What are the conditions that they are
particularly exercised about?
NOGUERA: So, the conditions vary. But since 2008, the Great Recession, many states began on a path of fiscal austerity, which took a particular
toll on the schools and resulted in both cuts and major, you know, no raises in teacher salaries and the like.
And what we see that many states haven't -- even if the Congress improved, have not reinvested in education. And so, consequently, teachers are
frustrated, particularly in areas like the Bay Area where housing costs are so high and the cost of living has risen but salaries haven't risen, that's
a huge factor. But economics is not the only issue driving these strikes.
Nate Bowling, you are a teacher. A few years ago, you were declared Washington State's best teacher and you yourself, in the last few months,
have also being on strike, in the streets, out of your classroom. Flesh out for me was the professor has told us on a macrolevel. What does it
mean to be a teacher in the public-school system today?
NATE BOWLING, 2016 WASHINGTON STATE TEACHER OF THE YEAR: There's a two- track problem that I see in teaching. On track one, you have that basically almost all teachers are underpaid and overworked and asked to a
job that they don't feel they're valued by society. And then within the profession, your highly effective educators, they have options.
And so, for me and for my colleagues, if you're a highly effective educator, that means you can go to other career paths that are less
stressful and pay much better.
AMANPOUR: So, how has that affected you? I mean, have you been tempted to leave the school? Have other of your colleagues left? I mean, how has it
impacted you and also the school?
BOWLING: I love the job of teaching and I choose to stay in the classroom. But if you look at my Teacher of the Year cohort, we have four finalists.
Of our four finalists, two of them are not doing policy work in Washington D.C., one's a member of Congress and the remaining two who stayed in the
classroom both walked a picket line.
And so, if the Teachers of the Year are frustrated, imagine what it's like being one of the anonymous teachers who's toiling in a low income urban or
rural school in America. [13:05:00]
AMANPOUR: Professor, where is this going? If it's hitting the top teaches so badly, what's the solution?
NOGUERA: Well, the only solution is to really reinvest in education, that we have to make teaching an attractive profession so that teachers like
Nate Bowling will stay in the profession and we have to do things to improve conditions in schools.
In this country, there is no social safety net for children. So, poor children come to school hungry, come to school with basic needs not met.
Teachers are the front -- on the front line addressing those needs but they're not paid to be social workers and therapist but they are expected
to take on those roles.
And so, what we've done is we've put more and more pressure on teachers, ask them to do more and more, we haven't raised the pay and teacher are
finally pushing back. And I think in the process of pushing back, what they're doing is really calling attention to the deterioration of
conditions in our schools, which has occurred over several years.
AMANPOUR: What do the parents say when they see teachers going out on strike? What have you heard?
BOWLING: I've been in the classroom at Lincoln High School for 10 years and I have a very good relationship with many of the parents in the
community. There are families who -- I'm teaching like the 3rd and 4th kid in their family and they're incredibly supportive.
The families at my school and the families across the country, I think, are supportive of what teachers are trying to do. Teachers are advocating for
better conditions for themselves and the conditions for themselves will improve the learning environment for their students.
AMANPOUR: Professor Noguera, you know, you alluded to the fact, and obviously so did Nate, that teachers are simply, in America and in the
public school system, not compensated in kind, they're not respected as being at the top of a professional ladder, they're almost, you know,
treated as the least paid, the least worthy in society when, in fact, they are the most -- and you see in other countries, for instance, here in
Europe, where teachers are paid massively higher than those in the public school system in the United States. Where here in Europe and elsewhere,
it's considered a top-notch profession to be a teacher.
Tell me a little bit about what you know about that and whether that's even transferable to the United States.
NOGUERA: I think that's a very important point, Christiane, which is -- that the teaching is not a position held in high regard the United States.
We actually assume that anyone could be a teacher. And in several states, we've made it easy for anybody with the bachelor's degree to become a
teacher, provide them with very little training, put them in classrooms with very disadvantaged students who are struggling to learn and then we
blame the teacher for why they're not getting better test scores.
The whole situation is one to set people up for failure and to not meet the needs of our students. So, we could learn a lot from the countries that
outperform us, most of the countries in Western Europe, in Japan, in Canada, that -- where teachers are treated with much greater respect, the
profession is held in much higher regard. And what we see in those countries is it has an impact on student outcomes.
So, we've claimed in the last several years to be very concerned about our competitiveness in the world with respect to education performance but we
haven't made the investments in education that would lead to better performance from our students. And so, the teachers' role in this is
critical.
AMANPOUR: Let's to talk about policy now, because it's not red or blue states where this is happening, these walkouts, it's in many red and blue
states. And apart from the conditions and the pay that we've just been talking about, there's also this policy issue, and that is you, in the
public-school system, in the public-school sector, are concerned about the ever-increasing privatization of American education, whether it's charter
schools or the like.
Why is the charter school issue being such an issue in West Virginia with their strikes and what is wrong with charter schools?
NOGUERA: Well, I think what the teachers in West Virginia saw and what's happening in other places where charter schools have been allowed to
proliferate, what it's done is it diminished the amount of money available to public schools.
Charter schools originally envision as a way to bring innovation into public education. But instead, what we've done is we've created a
competitive system that's unregulated. So, we have lots of cases of charter schools being run by for profit organizations that have engaged in
corruption and really been irresponsible to the public for the use of public funds.
And so, the threat posed by charters really does undermine public education further as we've seen in Los Angeles where it has the largest number of
charter schools in the nation. So, it's become an issue that public-school teachers increasingly are concerned about and are striking over.
AMANPOUR: And yet, of course, it's preached as the solution.
NOGUERA: And, again, that's both Democrats and Republicans. So, this is - - it's interesting the way this is playing out and it will play out in the next election.
AMANPOUR: What is the problem [13:10:00] with the increasing privatization of the public education system, particularly in your area, in the
California area, now we're in the second big strike, Oakland is now underway? And apparently, it's disproportionately affecting children of
color, Latinos, Blacks. Tell me about that.
NOGUERA: Yes. Our public-school system is the most accessible institution in the country. And so, when we allow those conditions to deteriorate, as
we have, what we see is that the kids' basic needs are not being met but we've created as a competitive environment where charter schools and public
schools are competing for kids but we haven't put more money into the system.
So, in Los Angeles and Oakland, what we see now is many under enrolled schools and therefore, we can't sustain them and what we've seen is that as
the number of schools has decreased, our ability to support schools and public education declined.
So, the real question, why is California in the midst of these strikes? You know, California is a very blue state. We have a democratically
elected governor who was elected with support from the unions but California spends 41st in the nation in per people spending.
And so, they're going to have to do a lot to change the tax laws to reinvest public education. But that means, turning away from the kind of
privatization policies that were embraced both by the Obama and the Bush administration and now, the Trump administration, which has resulted in
this decline and deterioration in public education throughout the country.
AMANPOUR: Nate, do you feel based on the evidence so far that these strikes are getting to where you want them to get? Are lawmakers
listening? Do you see any change or hope on the horizon?
BOWLING: I can say that here in Takoma when we went on strike, we were able to come back from the strike with essential pay raise, and that's made
a difference for my -- in my life and the lives of the teachers.
The thing is, going on strike is a miserable experience. Nobody wants to be on strike. And what we're trying to do is capture the public's
attention. I feel like Americans talk about value education but they don't actually show they value education. And hopefully, these strikes can be a
catalyst to get policymakers attention.
I can say that like I know that here in Washington State, I'm well compensated. For me, it's not about the money, it's about the conditions.
I make, frankly, double what some teachers in Florida make. And on a lot of these states they've passed laws to make it illegal to strike. And in
doing so, what they're trying to do is silence educators.
AMANPOUR: So, Nate Bowling, if you would just then say, and I'll ask Professor Noguera as well, what does this mean for the United States of
America? We hear all over the world that the only way to get ahead, to propel yourself and your nation and your community is education. It's like
a religion. Education is the holy grail. What does this mean for the future of America if kids are not getting the education they deserve and
need?
BOWLING: We tell students every day that education is the gateway to a middle-class lifestyle and a way out of poverty. But if we continue how
the system of school that we have, with the systems of poverty and lack of support, what we're really going to do is we're going to solidify people's
social conditions. And kids who are going to grow up are going to live for and die for.
Like by having the school system that we have, we're removing and taking away education's ability to be an equalizer.
AMANPOUR: That's a pretty dramatic way to put it. And, Professor Pedro Noguera, when you study this and look into it, I mean, it must be making
America not only less healthy in the ways that Nate Bowling just said, but certainly less competitive around the world.
NOGUERA: It is because the big issue facing America today is inequality and the rising inequality. The only way to address an equality is to do
what Nate said and that's to invest -- ensure that all kids have access to good education so they can improve their lives, help themselves, help their
families and communities. But that's not what we've been doing, we've been doing the opposite of that.
And we're a country with an aging population. And what many people don't realize, particularly older voters in this country, is if young people are
not working and not earning good salaries because they got a good education, they're not going to be able to support this pension system and
Social Security.
So, what we don't see is that education is key to our future and that we are, in fact, interdependent, that we don't do a good job of educating this
generation of young people, we will pay for it later. So, it is in our own interest as a nation to make these kinds of investments in children and in
our schools.
AMANPOUR: Well, you both made that case very, very clearly and we thank you both, Professor Pedro Noguera and also, Teacher Nate Bowling. Thank
you both very much indeed.
NOGUERA: Thanks for having me.
BOWLING: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: We turn now to Gillian Anderson, an actress at the very top of her profession, in television, theater and film, from her breakout as star
of the number one hit, the [13:15:00] "X-Files" to her surprisingly saucy turn as a self-proclaimed shag specialist in the Netflix comedy "Sex
Education".
She was back on stage in London's West End this year in a brilliant, new production of "All About Eve." It's an adaptation of the classic Hollywood
movie best remembered for its iconic performance by Bette Davis as the actress Margo Channing.
Anderson's take on Channing is very much of this cultural moment. It's a penetrating look at hot button issues from sexism to ageism to our
obsession with physical beauty. When I spoke with Gillian Anderson here in London, I asked her about the daunting challenge of filling Bette Davis's
shoes.
Gillian Anderson, welcome to the program.
GILLIAN ANDERSON, ACTRESS: Thank you for having me.
AMANPOUR: What brought you back from film or TV?
ANDERSON: Well, I like to do a stage every three or four years. And the last play that I did was "Streetcar." And it's difficult, I think, to find
something once you have done "Tennessee Williams" or something like "Blanche Dubois." It's challenging to find something that could potentially
be as meaty or challenging and enjoyable. My partner had suggested I might want to look into --
AMANPOUR: Your r partner is?
ANDERSON: Peter Morgan, the writer.
AMANPOUR: Oh, right. The creator of "The Crown" --
ANDERSON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- and all sorts of other things.
ANDERSON: And quite soon after we got together, he said, "Have you ever thought about looking into doing an adaptation of "All About Eve" as a
play?"
AMANPOUR: How much do you love this play, this story?
ANDERSON: It's a wonderful film.
AMANPOUR: Of course, with Bette Davis, the 1950 film, and Anne Baxter, playing --
ANDERSON: Yes. And everybody --
AMANPOUR: -- Margo who you play and Eve who is your understudy and then takes over.
ANDERSON: Yes. And it's hugely popular, won a lot of Oscars at the time.
AMANPOUR: So, let's sit down a bit. I mean, first and foremost, did you feel the pressure to Bette Davis's? Did you feel you should mimic or do
something different? Because obviously, your performance is completely different. She was like sarcastic and incandesce and you are, as they've
described, somewhat glacial, much more controlled.
ANDERSON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Just give us the seatbelt line.
ANDERSON: Well, no.
AMANPOUR: Come on.
ANDERSON: No, no, no, no. Hang on. I'm going to answer your question which is that, you know, my understanding in going into work with Ivo is
you come in knowing nothing. You have no idea how he's going to treat it, what it's going to end up as. I think, in the end, we actually didn't even
know what it was going to be until we were told what it was after the previews have started really because we're not in the audience and that so
much is going on technically.
And so, also not knowing whether things were going to be cut, whether it was going to be present or past or an amalgamation of different eras. And
so, you know, I think all of us kind of showed up with an empty mind and wanting to learn and be taught.
And so, in that process, one lets go of preconceived ideas of who this character is. And also, if you're working from the text alone, the text
alone is not bitchy. You know, the text is not as monstrous at all. And so, you know, a lot of -- and also, what we don't realize -- and seeing it
again, I watched it before -- again, before -- I hadn't watched it until --
AMANPOUR: The film.
ANDERSON: -- the film, until -- before I sat down with Ivo. And then he said he was not working on the film. The script, yes, but would not watch
it himself. And -- but I watched it again for the second time this morning. Just for you -- just to have a conversation about what it is that
Bette Davis actually does. And actually, a lot of her lines are quite gentle. She has a harsh face and she is -- but actually, she's acting
against that. And she's very often much gentler than we remember her. We have a tendency to misremember --
AMANPOUR: And are you --
ANDERSON: -- how monstrous she is.
AMANPOUR: So, we tend to think she's very monstrous and she's not.
ANDERSON: Yes. And she's actually really not. And I don't know --
AMANPOUR: Can you do the lines? I let Annie Lennox sing at this table.
ANDERSON: Well, OK. Hang on a second. So, where we find Margo in this minute is that she -- the party is starting and she is starting to feel
already usurped by this young actress who she has allowed to take over her life and to be her assistant.
AMANPOUR: Who stalked her.
ANDERSON: Who essentially stalked her and now is living her house and maybe making a move on her younger boyfriend and eventually will make the
move on her career. But in this moment is the very beginning of Margo's feeling that maybe this is happening. And she's -- they've got a welcome
home party for her love of -- for her boyfriend. Yes, welcome home and birthday party. He's been away for a while. And he has spent the first
[13:20:00] 20 minutes not coming to say hello to me, but to say hello to this young girl in the other room.
And so, she's already grumpy and she's a little bit drunk. And her good friend Karen has said to her, you know, what's happening here? You know,
why -- we've seen you in this mood before. Is it over or is it just beginning? And she assesses them all in the room, all of her friends
lined up in front of her and says fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy night or something.
AMANPOUR: I love it. It's fantastic.
ANDERSON: And I can't believe that you just asked me to do that.
AMANPOUR: It's fantastic because it goes to the heart of it. So, let's talk about the really serious things. First and foremost, this Ivo van
Hove camera work is remarkable because one of the cameras is stuck right into the makeup mirror where you do a lot of your scenes. And there's one
where you can see, you know, you're doing this with your face. You're taking off the makeup. And then there's another way you literally morph 10
years or more. More.
ANDERSON: Thirty.
AMANPOUR: Thirty years.
ANDERSON: Yes, yes.
AMANPOUR: Thanks. Sorry, Gillian.
ANDERSON: That's all right.
AMANPOUR: But what does that feel like? A, as a woman, B, as an actress, what does it feel like to be seen and shown doing that every night?
ANDERSON: That doesn't bother me at all. That's the essences of -- it's one of the essences of what this play is about. It's not just about aging
but that is certainly at the core of her insecurity, you know, as well as her whole life has been her work.
And if her -- if she's no longer going to be Able to even work, then what is she? And she doesn't even know -- she keeps saying over and over again
she doesn't even know herself. So many people seem to know her but she doesn't know herself.
But to speak to what you just asked, it's not -- I mean aging is inevitable. It was fascinating to go through this prosthetic process that
-- so Ivo's right-hand man and husband of 30 years and production Designer, art designer, came up with this idea of projecting -- because there's a lot
of videos that's projected up on the screens of us. But projecting my face as I'm sat in front of the mirror, in front of the audience, up there,
they're going through an aging process of 30 years.
AMANPOUR: Yes. So, it was shocking and moving.
ANDERSON: And -- but I'm touching my face at the same time. So, you don't quite know what's happening. How am I -- if I'm sat there, touching my
face, how is that aging working? So, it's prerecorded. It's six hours of prosthetics. Extraordinary work by Millennium who do a lot of movie work.
And first of all, it was fascinating to go through the process. I mean I've aged before in something that I had done, but it wasn't -- the quality
that you get today, in today's prosthetics that are done. And it was moving for me to see it in real life because there were no seams.
AMANPOUR: Not scary?
ANDERSON: No, not scary. But I wonder if part of not being scary is that I am, you know, in a relationship with somebody who is my age. We are very
aware of the fact that we are our age and celebratory of the fact that we are our age and that we are going through this together.
And when I sent him these pictures, he was very moved and touched and felt compassion and love and understanding. And so, if -- which also then
speaks to Margo's concern, which is if she's with somebody who's younger than herself, then is she with somebody who is not going to be able to hold
her in these moments, hold her through menopausal, understand her through these changes? Is he going to ditch her for somebody younger? Will he be
able to understand the pain and the trauma that everybody has to go through in coming to terms with it?
AMANPOUR: Did you as an actress worry, freak out, that you would be forgotten once you got to 50 or that you wouldn't get the roles? Did the
whole aging thing in your real life, was it traumatic?
ANDERSON: Well, I -- I mean, I've been extraordinarily lucky in my career. You know, I continue to --
AMANPOUR: You could say that you've aged in front of us for the last 25 years.
ANDERSON: Yes, I have. Yes. Yes.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
ANDERSON: And I have been -- I keep working. And that doesn't happen for all actresses. I don't know what -- you know, I have been incredibly
lucky. And so that's first and foremost. But also, I have -- there have absolutely even -- we were talking earlier about Sex Education which --
AMANPOUR: We're going to talk about in a minute. Yes.
ANDERSON: Which is in seeing myself on camera in that -- when I first saw it, I thought, "I've aged. Look, I'm so old." [13:25:00] And --
AMANPOUR: But we're going to have to bleep I've aged.
ANDERSON: Yes, sorry. Oh, my God.
AMANPOUR: Yes, Gillian.
ANDERSON: I said, "Oh, my goodness."
AMANPOUR: There you go. But let's just -- we're going to get on to "Sex Education" in a second.
ANDERSON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Because that's a whole another realm and it's very different to Margo and it's very relevant and it's very zeitgeist right now what you're
doing on Netflix, "Sex Education." But just to stick with the play for a second.
ANDERSON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: I've read that you say you complain that you have a not very good memory and that it's hard for you to maybe remember all the dialogue.
ANDERSON: It seems to be OK in theater. What I really struggle with is doing speeches, doing interviews, doing press.
AMANPOUR: Like this?
ANDERSON: Yes, doing anything that triggers anxiety of some kind. Yes.
AMANPOUR: Are you anxious now?
ANDERSON: No.
AMANPOUR: No? Good.
ANDERSON: No. I have had panic attacks in my life, in my earlier life. Quite severe ones. And so, that's always in the back of mind and --
AMANPOUR: What would you tell young people who are so stressed right now, so anxious, boys, girls, young people, middle-aged people, old
people. Panic and stress and anxiety seems to be a very prevalent emotion right now.
ANDERSON: Yes. Well, I think, firstly, is getting honest with oneself about the fact. I think very often we run and we push into the background
and we don't address it because it feels like a weakness of some kind. We don't tell somebody. We get more and more depressed or more anxious
because we're keeping it at bay just and feeling like we have to juggle so much in life.
And so, I would say, first of all, find somebody to properly talk it through with. And then what I have found is that finding as much time for
myself as possible, I've really struggled with that before. I have three kids, doing, giving. I'm the last person that I think about.
So, whatever -- whether that means 10 minutes in the morning to sit quietly or going separately at lunchtime to take a break where one gets to
decompress, meditation or close one's eyes, or just taking care of oneself and communicating.
AMANPOUR: Well, communicating leads me right on to the other big thing that you're doing right now. So, it's a Netflix series, "Sex Education."
You've completed series one. It's up there. Everybody thinks it's phenomenal.
I just did a series which ended up on Netflix as well. I did it for CNN called "Sex & Love Around the World." Mine was more documentary. Yours is
fiction, set in a -- in an English High School. What drew you to that? And were you surprised that you really hit the sweet spot? This is the
zeitgeist. Everybody is talking about this right now.
ANDERSON: I was so surprised. I'm going to be honest with you. I started to read it and I -- as much as I embrace com, I don't get offered comedy
very often. And I'm really, really always on the lookout for comedy.
I had thought, "Yes, but not this one." And I had -- I put it down. I had got the offer and I'd toss it away. And then because my partner also works
with Netflix and had heard that they were keen on it, had said, "Well, let me give it a read." And all of a sudden, I started getting these texts
saying, "You've got to pick this up again. It's hilarious. You've got to have a look. It would be so good for you to do this." And so,
begrudgingly, I picked it up again and laughed from beginning to end.
AMANPOUR: And it's phenomenal. I mean, I binge watch five of the episodes. I've got to watch the rest. Waiting for the next series.
ANDERSON: But even though --
AMANPOUR: I'm doing it as well.
ANDERSON: I didn't know. It's so different from what we've seen before. It's so broad. It's gotten no specific time, place, era. It's both
American and British. Would people embrace that or would it just confuse them?
AMANPOUR: I'm going to play a little a little clip. The only one we have at the moment is from the first episode of series one. It's you. Anyway,
we'll see it.
ANDERSON: Yes. OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OTIS: How old are you, Dan?
DAN: How old? I'm 32.
OTIS: You're having some kind of preemptive midlife crisis?
JEAN: Otis.
OTIS: Mom, he rides a motorbike.
DAN: I'll take you for a ride in it sometime.
OTIS: No, thanks.
DAN: Do you have an Oedipal complex?
OTIS: As in, you mean do I want to have sex with my mom?
DAN: Not really. It's not really my thing, that.
JEAN: Just ignore him. he's teasing you. Otis, it's perfectly normal for a younger man to be sexually attracted to a mature woman. In fact, when
you stigmatize his choice, then you feed into an unhealthy narrative on masculinity in middle age.
DAN: That's why I say you should never date a shrink, huh?
JEAN: Sex and relationship therapist. Thank you very much.
OTIS: That's me.
DAN: Yeah, I should probably, uh, shoot off as well. Thanks.
JEAN: OK.
OTIS: Thanks for everything, mum.
DAN: Uh, Jean, Jean. Definitely Jean.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Honestly, I mean it's hilarious. So you're the sex therapist.
ANDERSON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Otis is your son.
ANDERSON: Yes, Butterfield.
AMANPOUR: Who's phenomenal. And that's one of the people who passes through the night, I'd say.
ANDERSON: Yes. Yes.
AMANPOUR: And what have you heard from young people? Because the real focus is on the kids and how they talk about sex and all the issues around
it, whether it's bullying, whether it's performance anxiety, whatever it might be. What if -- what's the reaction been?
ANDERSON: Well, I guess -- I mean what I've been surprised at is how is the age range of viewers. I mean hopefully not younger than 14. But from
14 to 70, I've had people e-mailing me.
And I guess the response is how refreshing. How refreshing at this particular time, specifically that we're able to have such a frank and an
unflinching look at sex.
But also a lot of -- you've brought up communication and that's -- so I play sex therapist. My son played by Asa Butterfield takes it upon himself
to be a sex therapist in his high school because he's grown up with it basically and he has a knack for it.
But what -- mostly what --it's not that he's preaching. Mostly, what he's trying to relay to his fellow students is about communication,
communication between couples, the importance of intimacy which I mean have we ever heard that word in high school ever?
Let's learn in our sex ed classes. And so there's something incredibly touching and moving about just those two things. Even though we also see
the painful, the awkward, the messy, the gross, the -- and these
AMANPOUR: The funny but sometimes violent.
ANDERSON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Bullying, yes.
ANDERSON: And those broad tropes that are then counterbalanced and broken down.
AMANPOUR: Well, you seem to be embracing it. I gather your current Twitter bio. It says Gillian Anderson, shag specialist.
ANDERSON: Oh yes. You need to stop that now though.
AMANPOUR: It's pretty funny. Just a quickie. You just said that you're a working mother. Your first kid arrived while you were in mid-X-Files.
ANDERSON: Yes. Well, the first year.
AMANPOUR: First year of X-Files. But just on the issue. You were paid a lot less than your male co-star David Duchovny.
ANDERSON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Maybe half as much as he was.
ANDERSON: No. Well, initially.
AMANPOUR: Initially. We're going to ask you how you changed it. And I even read that you had to, excuse me, get out of the car after him, walk
behind him.
ANDERSON: Yes. So initially, when I was cast, he was the star and I was - - I had never been seen ever in anything pretty much. And so it made sense that our salaries were either complete -- I don't even know what the
percentage is but completely different.
In the third season, as it was successful and there were awards and it was the number one show, it was the right time to negotiate. And it took a lot
of negotiating. It took threatening to leave did they not raise it up close to what his was given that we were both doing the same amount of
work.
The big issue and why it was brought up again recently is when we went back in again, post the series ending and us coming back to do another series,
even four years ago whenever it was that we did it, they were offering me a third of what they were offering David. And we just could not --
AMANPOUR: You said -- did you say how much?
ANDERSON: We couldn't --
AMANPOUR: We, being you and David?
ANDERSON: No. We, being me and my representatives who were getting the phone calls saying they've offered you this and they've offered him that.
It was like, are you kidding me? So that was when I talked. So I spoke about it again.
And it's been -- in this particular instance, it's a no brainer because you can't have one without the other. And so it was an easy negotiation for
me.
For most people, it's not so easy. And also the stakes are not so high. They're not as high for me as they are for most people who have to sit in
front of their boss and [13:35:00] risk losing their job to be that bold or to ask for what they deserve.
And so I struggle a little bit to have this conversation because --
AMANPOUR: No. But it's important. It's not fantasy land. The more people ask and demand, the more it happens.
ANDERSON: True. Yes.
AMANPOUR: Finally, we've mentioned your partner several times.
ANDERSON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Peter Morgan. He is in continuing with The Crown and there's a whole another series envisioned that's about to drop. And I understand
that you're going to be playing Margaret Thatcher.
ANDERSON: That has not been announced. We're not allowed to talk about it.
AMANPOUR: Would I be wrong?
ANDERSON: We're not allowed to talk about it. When is this airing?
AMANPOUR: Would you like to play Margaret Thatcher?
ANDERSON: Yes. Should they come to me or should they offer it to me, I would be delighted to play Margaret Thatcher. An extraordinary woman,
Margaret Thatcher.
AMANPOUR: OK.
ANDERSON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Well, we'll see. We'll watch this space.
ANDERSON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Gillian Anderson.
ANDERSON: Thank you so much.
AMANPOUR: In London, with All About Eve. Thank you very much indeed.
ANDERSON: Pleasure.
AMANPOUR: Now, it's time for us to turn to a musical and television legend. You may know him as a founding member of Bruce Springsteen's
iconic e street band or a Silvio Dante, who was Tony Soprano's consigliere in the Sopranos.
But now Steven Van Zandt has a new passion project, working to preserve music and arts education in American schools. And he sits down with our
Walter Isaacson to discuss his recent U.S. teacher solidarity tour and his new album Summer of Sorcery.
WALTER ISAACSON, CONTRIBUTOR: Wow. Thanks for being here. Great to have you.
STEVEN VAN ZANDT: Pleasure to meet you.
ISAACSON: So Springsteen, you know, the Sopranos, Soul Fire, and now you're into education. Explain how you got there. You've become an
advocate for music and education.
ZANDT: Yes. It was a strange road, one that I didn't really intend to take. But the music teachers came to me, about 10, 12 years ago now. And
if I listened, this no child left behind legislation has devastated all the arts. Is this something you can look into?
So I went to Congress, I talked to Teddy Kennedy at the time and Mitch McConnell. I said, listen, this no child left behind legislation is doing
a bad thing.
They said, "Yes. No, we're going to pay the consequences." I said, OK, OK. So fix it, you know.
They're like not going to happen. OK.
So I came back to them and I thought about it. I said, listen, we're not going to put instruments in kids' hands for a while. So let's do the next
best thing. Let's do a music history curriculum.
You know, we want to keep the arts in the DNA of our education system somehow, you know. So let's avoid the high school years, kind of focus on
the middle school because now high school is completely obsessed with testing.
And someday, they're going to figure out that testing is not learning, OK, but that's another discussion. But right now they have to do these tests
and get higher scores on Math and Science. You know, even though the arts usually improve Math and Science scores, you know.
So anyway, so I said, OK, let's do that. I outlined 200 lessons and we worked on it for 10 years.
ISAACSON: So this is a whole curriculum that teachers can use that takes rock music and says, hey, if you use rock music, you can help teach
everything.
ZANDT: Yes. It's not just rock music but popular music.
And we go all the way back. We start at the early 20th Century with country blues and go right up to current times.
I also want to do something that kind of dealt with the modern world in a sense of this generation is different, you know. It's probably the second
biggest generation gap after ours.
And may even be the first biggest in the sense that these kids are different. They're faster. They're smarter. They have no patience
whatsoever.
And we have to kind of adjust to that. So I thought let's do something that works for them, instead of dragging them to our old methods of learn
this now and someday you'll use it.
It's not going to fly with these kids anymore. They want something now. they can use now.
(CROSSTALK) device giving them whatever they want every 10 seconds, right. So I said let's use music. You know, it's the perfect answer.
Every kid is into music. You know, let's just go into a classroom and go to them, not drag them to us.
What is your favorite artist? Every kid knows that answer, right. And let's trace them back.
OK, you're into whoever it is, Arianna Grande, whatever. She comes from this one. That one comes from that one. That one comes from Aretha
Franklin.
ISAACSON: And, you know, and so you trace the roots all the way back through music in the 20th century.
ZANDT: And give them a little context of the history of what was happening when that artist came out, when that song was written, why it was written.
[13:40:00] And what happens is they're engaged.
You know, you talk to any teacher today, what's the toughest thing -- what is their biggest challenge? Engaging the kids, right. And keeping them
engaged.
Well, this engages them immediately because it's the one subject they're all experts in, which is their own taste. They know what they like.
And let's bring some attention to teachers who are just the most underappreciated, underfunded, underpaid people. And let's start to make
them cool, as cool as we can.
So we put aside 400 or 500 tickets every single show. Teachers come for free. Bring a friend. And we do an hour workshop in between the sound
check and the show.
Because they have to do 20 or 25 hours of professional development every year to certify for their teaching certificate. And you have to pay for it
out of their meager salaries, right.
Let's give them an hour for free. Hopefully, it'll count towards their certificate. Most places it does.
And we have a foundation of people come out and do the workshop of how the curriculum works. So it was a way of connecting them to the curriculum
directly. We're also working on the administration level and school board level.
New Jersey has adopted our curriculum now and the first state I think to officially adopt S.T.E.A.M. from S.T.E.M., you know, put the A into the
curriculum. We're hoping to do in every state.
ISAACSON: With your passion for the teachers, you're in Los Angeles on tour. One morning, I wake up and you're walking the picket line on the
strike with the L.A. school teachers. What was that all about?
ZANDT: Yes. It was funny because I happened to be there for a meeting and I thought it was happening and I thought let me go support it. I'm a big
supporter of the unions. And happily the strike ended like, you know, a day later.
ISAACSON: You talk about being exposed to all of the arts. You know, music and various types of arts. Did you ever think growing up as a kid in
New Jersey, you would not only be into music, into radio, into vinyl, but also be into acting and television and everything else you do?
ZANDT: No. No. We were just trying to make a living playing rock and roll which was a miracle itself. You know, it was such a long shot.
You know as our parents would often remind us. What are you going to do? Are you going to be a Beatle?
Well, you know, you put it that way. February 9, 1964, the Beatles played on television and the day before, nobody had a band. The day after
everybody had a band. And --
ISAACSON: You watched it?
ZANDT: Oh, yes. Yes. Me and 70 million others.
It was, you know, they didn't all get out of the garage. OK. Most of the bands, you know, but a dozen or so in our area that did. I had my band, he
had his band. So we were immediately friends, you know.
ISAACSON: How long have you known Bruce Springsteen? I know he was the best man in your wedding many decades ago. How have you evolved and
changed together?
ZANDT: Do I have to say that number out loud? Fifty years. You know, I was like 15 and he was 16.
Things haven't changed much to tell you the truth, in 50 years. We have our own families and our own -- you live your own lives but not much has
changed.
ISAACSON: Tell me about the South Africa crusade.
ZANDT: I decided to make -- sell a record and I decided I'm going to be the political guy. There's a lot of artists showing up at demonstrations
and protests and doing a lot of great political work and started with the grateful dead and the Jefferson airplane.
It was a great tradition of political involvement that way. But there wasn't a whole lot of it in the work.
So I wrote about Latin America and bitter fruit and various things I talked about. I ended up in South Africa, it was that one place I couldn't find
that much information about.
I heard that they were doing these reforms of the apartheid system and that it was getting better. "The New York Times" basically saying that they're
an invulnerable country, a very scary country possibly with nuclear weapons but they were reforming the government.
And so I went down there with a completely open mind hoping to see these reforms and instead I found slavery, modern slavery and realized that this
system can't be reformed. It has to be eliminated.
And the sports boycott had already happened. It was very effective.
The ultimate home run was the economic boycott which would bring down the government. In between was the cultural boycott.
So I said let's focus on that and be a bridge towards that economic boycott at which point [13:45:00] this government will fall. They were copying our
native American reservations and creating these phony homelands and then create -- make those homelands independent countries.
In one of this phony homeland, Botswana was its (INAUDIBLE) city so they were enticing paying big money for Beatle to come play sun city, violate
the boycott and pretend that they weren't violating the boycott because it was a separate country
Well, it wasn't a separate country. So we want to expose that.
It's not a separate country. It's a phony homeland and you are violating the boycott.
It is South Africa by playing there. So I don't play there anymore. And we shot them down, overnight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZANDT: The money is going to the Africa fund, families of political prisoners, South Africans in exile.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZANDT: It was very successful and then because of the publicity, the senators and congressman, their kids were coming to them saying what is the
South Africa thing? We got MTV.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZANDT: I ain't going to play Sun City.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ISAACSON: I'm not going to play Sun City became almost a mantra.
ZANDT: OH, yes. Yes. And it got their whole movement reenergized. And in the end, it was a first of overriding of the basic legislation pops up
to cut them off. Reagan vetoed it and his veto was overridden for the first time. And that was the end.
Once that, the domino started to fall and they had to let Mandela out and the government fell.
ISAACSON: And your music has been very very political, both yours and then yours with the E Street Band but recently your last albums aren't. So tell
me your view of politics in music.
ZANDT: My value with this moment is to maybe try and bring some common ground between our very divisive, divided nation. And so I wanted to -- I
said -- and I announced this at the show.
I said, listen, we're not going to do any politics tonight. Everybody is welcome. We're going to transport you by pure art, by pure music with this
amazing band I put together.
And we're not going to, you know, we're not going to dwell on anything partisan. So I haven't done anything partisan since I started this 12
years ago.
I didn't endorse Obama. And I'm not criticizing Trump. I want everybody to feel free and feel welcome when they come to the show.
It's about the music. Let me take you on a trip and get away from this for a minute. We need a sanctuary from politics at this point rather than me
dragging people into awareness and consciousness about politics.
At this point, we need an actual break from it so our mind can even function the next day when we have to come back to this incredible
onslaught of bad news every day.
ISAACSON: You're working on a new album.
ZANDT: Yes. The new album is done. It's coming out May 3rd.
ISAACSON: Summer of Sorcery I hear?
ZANDT: Summer of Sorcery. I'm very very proud of it. It's a big leap for me artistically.
It's the first nonpolitical Album, really, for the most part. And it's also the first fictional album.
It's the first album I've done that is not autobiographical. I was trying to get away from me, me, me. I'm sick of me.
I want to make records like the records I grew up with. You know, Sam Cook and Smokey Robinson and the Beatles and Stones and all those great bands at
work.
Not specifically autobiographical, for the most part. I want to try that for the first time. So I've succeeded in doing it and I'm very very proud
of it.
ISAACSON: Does it tie in with this notion of history of jazz? I mean history music and its roots.
ZANDT: Well, it's an evolution for me, certainly of all my influences and work. So I'm very proud of it that way.
You can hear where I'm coming from but now in the form of original songs as opposed to covers. And, yes, before that, the tour is coming out on Blu-
ray, the Soul Fire tour and a seven album vinyl box.
We started playing on the radio. Paul McCartney joined me on stage which I was thrilled about, one of the highlights of my life. The new album will
come first week in May and there will be a tour with that.
ISAACSON: As a pioneer in Netflix, with your show, how has Netflix and things like that changed the nature of what you can do on T.V.?
ZANDT: Well, it was the Sopranos [13:55:00] that changed everything, I think. And that's pretty much recognized now.
And I took three elements which was HBO being courageous to give you the blank slate, give David Chase the freedom to do what he wanted to do.
David Chase was just a genius and James Gandolfini to pull it off.
So it's in HBO, David Chase and Jimmy Galdolfini, they created this thing that was new which was a little bit more realistic. As you're watching
Sopranos, you change the channel to other shows, they look quite false in comparison.
The way it was lit, all the other shows looked over lit and all kinds of camera moves. The Sopranos was as close to the documentary as you're going
to get. It was very -- the camera didn't move.
There was nothing seductive about it, nothing artistically gimmicky. And I still miss that on T.V., turning on a show and relating to the characters.
I don't see that anymore. You know, not very often. It was David Chase who decided I was an actor before I knew I was an actor, you know.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I genuinely don't think there's anything to gain by keeping him around.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ISAACSON: So he got you on the Sopranos. How did that happen?
ZANDT: Yes, he just saw me in the Hall of Fame. Has to be the first time it was ever televised. A lot of destiny at work here, Walter.
And he was flipping around and then he had been a fan. He had not only these records, he had my solo records.
So he said call up, you want to be in my new T.V show? I said not really. I'm not an actor.
"Yes, you are, you just don't know it yet." I've pretty much been blackballed from the music business because of my success with South
Africa.
You can see people in Africa. Don't start bringing down governments. This is not smiled upon by the corporate world.
I was happened to be in the two places where history was made by just accident. One with Sopranos, we bring this whole new consciousness to T.V.
and then Netflix turning into an international thing.
Our show was really the first international show. It was all subtitles except for me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do we got to take care of?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Excuse me, but are you attempting to bribe a public official?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know. It's just everybody can think a little bit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(CROSSTALK)
ZANDT: I love it, you know, but I love rooting for the guy. I wanted him to win and have this whole new world for us people who are content
creators. What a wonderful new thing if this Netflix actually succeeds. I want them to succeed.
I said your first show, subtitles, really? He says, I like it. It's very authentic.
And I was very proud of the fact that we're the only European show in history that wasn't remade for America, really. If you think about it.
Almost everything else gets remade. That show and the actual movies and actors who were just terrific. The great directors and cinematographers
and I'm the only one speaking English.
ISAACSON: If the E Street Band gets back together and you do something at the end of the year, what are you hoping it would be?
ZANDT: Well, I would hope it would be a new album and a new tour. What Bruce is working -- it has to come -- it goes from him.
But I hope it would be like the old days where we -- the band contributes to it and we always did. I always, -- at that time I was producing as well
as helping with the arrangements and I would hope to do that again.
Whatever he wants. Whatever he needs. I'm there. The band is there for him.
But I think we will get back together. I'm not sure when but it will happen eventually.
ISAACSON: Steve Van Zandt, thank you for being with us.
ZANDT: My pleasure. My pleasure.
AMANPOUR: That's it from us for now. But join us again tomorrow night where we'll be looking back at my in-depth conversation with Katrin
Jakobsdottir. She's the prime minister of Iceland. We talk about her pledge to make the country carbon neutral by 2040.
Thank you for watching this special edition of AMANPOUR. And remember, you can always listen to our podcast and see us online at amanpour.com. And
you can follow me on Instagram and Twitter.
Goodbye from London.
END
