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Amanpour
Interview with "Thank You For Your Servitude" Author and The Atlantic Staff Writer Mark Leibovich; Interview with "Leave No Trace " Director Irene Taylor; Interview with Former Boy Scout Stuart Lord; Interview with "A Life in Light: Meditations on Impermanence" Author Mary Pipher. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired July 15, 2022 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Hello everyone and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK LEIBOVICH, AUTHOR, "THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVITUDE" AND STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: Donald Trump ate the Republican's lunch in some ways. He
used them and they're all sort of eating early out of his hand. But they got a lot out of the deal too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: As explosive evidence of Donald Trump's efforts to subvert democracy continue to emerge at the January 6th hearings, we look at his
enablers, their confessions, humiliations, and the price of submission. The Atlantic's Mark Leibovich joins me on his new book.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIMON LEE, ACADEMIC RESEARCHER: Academics then like to use that term, cult. The term that's used now is new religious movements.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Japan's Unification Church under the microscope after the assassination of Shinzo Abe. We'll take a look at its controversial
history.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARY PIPHER, AUTHOR "A LIFE IN LIGHT: MEDITATIONS ON IMPERMANENCE": I did it after Sandy Hook. I was in such despair that I felt like I needed to
ground myself in the whole solar system.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Finding light in darkness and despair. Renowned author in psychologist Mary Pipher gives us her insight into coping with trying
times.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
The evidence against Donald Trump simply keeps mounting. His multi-pronged efforts to overturn the will of the people, the 2020 election, continue to
be exposed at the January 6th hearings. And while many have since changed their tune, what is clear is that the former president was surrounded by a
group of enablers. And in some cases, sycophants.
We've seen numerous Republicans flip flop on Trump over the years. Let's take a look back at Senator Lindsey Graham, for example.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Robert, I -- we've had a hell of a journey. I hate it to end this way. All I can say is count me out. Enough is enough.
We'll play this out. We impeach president today without any evidence is just sheer hatred.
People who say the things he said will never lead a great nation in my opinions.
He's the most consequential Republican since Ronald Reagan.
Do you know how you make America great again? Tell Donald Trump to go to hell.
It's his nomination if he wants it, and I think he'll get re-elected in 2024.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: But what does Lindsey Graham really think of Donald Trump. Well, "The Atlantic's" Mark Leibovich asked Graham and a number of other
key players in the Trump universe. The result is his latest book, "Thank You for Your Servitude: Donald Trump's Washington and the Price of
Submission."
He also asked why many establishment Republicans fail to prevent his takeover of the GOP. Of course, there were and still are those willing to
stand up to Trump. And we got into all of this when we sat down earlier this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Thanks so much for joining us, Mark. congratulations on the book. Let's start with your reaction to the January 6th hearings. Now,
we're into, I think, the 7th hearing this week.
MARK LEIBOVICH, AUTHOR, "THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVITUDE" AND STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: What is your takeaway been in terms of the impact, if any, it has on Trump's power over the party?
LEIBOVICH: I -- you know, it's surprisingly been, I think, extremely impressive and actually has broken through. I had very modest expectations
for this just because Trump and so many of the people around him have just skated through so much of this. And they've relied on the burnout of the
American public and the viewing public. But this has been done so effectively.
What's been so powerful to me is the most powerful people in these hearings have been the witnesses. And they've been Republicans largely. Pat
Cipollone, the White House counsel. Kathy Hutchinson, Mike -- Mark Meadows, he's top aide, last week or two weeks ago.
So, to me, that's a very, very powerful statement about simple patriotic duty and character which falls in such sharp relief to the cowardice that
essentially has helped Donald Trump stay in power and stay the prevailing, you know, voice inside the Republican Party to this day.
GOLODRYGA: And you focus on the enablers of Donald Trump and his sycophants, not as much on the president himself --
LEIBOVICH: Right. Right.
GOLODRYGA: -- in this book. So, we're talking about Lindsey Graham, Kevin McCarthy, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz.
LEIBOVICH: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: And what's interesting in coming out of these hearings, at least, is that you don't hear their voices, whereas you would have heard
them in the past, somehow finding a way and a reason to defend the president. What is their silence say this time?
LEIBOVICH: That's a great question. I was just talking about this with someone. I mean, I think their silence speaks multitudes. I mean, what's
great is part of it is you know what drive Trump crazy, that no one is running out there defending him. It's just been radio silence, which is
depressing. I mean, you would, in on some ways, think that there would be at least one or two Republicans that we haven't heard from before that has
seen all this and would be outraged enough to actually say, you know, this has to stop and this has to be foremost thing that everyone pays attention
to.
[23:05:00]
But, you know, look, I think the hearings have been done expertly. It's been sparse. It's been very eloquent. The witnesses have been tremendous
and I hope it keeps going and I hope more people come out of the woodwork.
GOLODRYGA: One outlier obviously has been Liz Cheney, a chair of this committee. She may lose her job as congresswoman and her ranking among
Republican elites here because of her steadfastness and standing up for democracy and the constitution.
I wanted to quote something that she said earlier this week, because it stood out to me and I want to get your thoughts on it. She was talking
about the argument now in terms of defending the president and she said, the argument seems to be that President Trump was manipulated by others
outside the administration, that he was persuaded to ignore his closest advisers and that he was incapable of telling right from wrong. The
strategy is to blame people, his advisors called "the crazies" for what Donald Trump did.
This, of courses, is nonsense, President Trump is a 76-year-old man. He is not an impressionable child. What stood out to me is that at the beginning
of his administration, after he won in 2016, that did seem to be, at least, the hope for establishment Republicans was that he would be this vessel,
that he was so impressionable that they could sort of use him to carry through their agenda, their policies.
What do you make of that now, given what we just heard from, Liz Cheney?
LEIBOVICH: The enablers of Donald Trump are always pointing to the -- you know, he's too incompetent to have done this on his own. And like, get a
load of this. I don't think they could have colluded. How could they collude with Russia? They couldn't even collude with, you know, the city
council or whatever. I mean, that was Lindsey Graham's big line.
You know, at the same time, you know, people did use Donald Trump. And I remember in one of the interviews I did for the book, Adam Schiff, a
Democratic congressman, said, you know, Donald Trump ate the Republican's lunch in some ways. He used them and they're sort of eating out of his
hand.
But they got a lot of the deal to. I mean, they got a lot of, you know, judges, like three Supreme Court judges. They got a tax break. They got to
keep their jobs. Lindsey Graham, you know, made it work for him. He could stay in the Senate in South Carolina and Kevin McCarthy wants to be
speaker. So, you know, there was a lot of mutual, you know, benefit here but. But ultimately, I think it stems from weakness.
GOLODRYGA: And you asked the question at the start of the book about sort of the chicken and egg conundrum, right, what came first? Was Donald Trump
just a symptom of what direction that country was headed in or was he really the grenade that blew the country and the party up? Did you get any
sort of answer to that big question?
LEIBOVICH: Donald Trump absolutely exploited the cynicism of the United States politics and sort of jumped into it and sort of put it writ large
and he put his name on everything and he did what he did sort of in business, pop culture, in TV, in the Republican Party.
But the other chicken and egg question is everyone always says that Donald Trump's super power is that the base loves him, and you know, the voters
love him, 80, 90 percent of the voters would do anything for him. And therefore, other Republican elected officials have to just do his bidding,
otherwise, they will lose their jobs.
I would say that the reason that Donald Trump is so popular with the Republicans is because every other punitive leader of the Republican Party
has just waived the white flag from the Start. There has been no -- there have been very few counter arguments, there has been no strength in the
face of this bully. And that's why Liz Cheney has been such a refreshing and I think inspirational character through this.
And look, you know, she might lose her job in Wyoming. The Trumpiest state in the country with 500,000 people in it. But I think, ultimately, she
believes that history is for keeps. People will remember this, she wants her kids to remember this, she wants her legacy to mean something. And to
me, that's important and refreshing.
GOLODRYGA: You bring up legacy, and that's a topic you brought up with others. What did they say about that question?
LEIBOVICH: What was amazing is I asked this of a lot of people, right in the middle of it. And their answer was always, I don't care about my legacy
essentially. Kevin McCarthy looked at me when I asked him that like I had three heads, right? And he said, you know, oh, yes. Where is that statue to
Jeff Lake? Jeff lake is a anti Trump, you know, conservative Republican, who was very outspoken about it, lost his job.
But Rudy Giuliani used to say, you know, F it. My legacy is -- you know, I'll be dead. It doesn't matter. Trump said, if I lose this election,
that'll be my legacy. William Bar said basically the same thing. Lindsey Graham says the same thing. They all do. They really just spit on the idea
that there is anything beyond the day-to-day expediency of keeping Donald Trump happy and keeping their jobs and, you know, getting a better job, you
know, nothing beyond that matters, nothing about history. nothing about the legacy of the country or the constitution even. It's a very cynical view,
but it's very pervasive.
GOLODRYGA: You remind viewers of what some of the same people and supporter said about the president just a few years ago. Sean Spicer, I'm
just trying to get through this. We're just trying to limit the damage. He went on to be as press secretary. Lindsey Graham called him a complete
idiot in 2015. Rick Perry, a cancer to conservatism, went on to be as energy secretary.
LEIBOVICH: Right.
GOLODRYGA: Conservative radio show host, Hugh Hewitt, said, accepting Trump as a nominee was like ignoring stage four cancer. Obviously, he went
on to be a big supporter.
LEIBOVICH: Right.
[23:10:00]
GOLODRYGA: In getting to the bottom of why, why they would come around and why the cynicism, the hypocrisy? What did you find? Is it just being close
to power? Is it something else?
LEIBOVICH: I mean, one thing that was clear to me in 2016 and remains clear to me today is that his biggest enablers, his biggest supporters, the
Lindsey Grahams, the Marco Rubios, they all know exactly what he's about. They knew it then, they know it now.
And one of the things I've been saying is that -- the gap between what people have been saying publicly about Donald Trump, what these supporters
say publicly about him, the adoration, you know, the glowing adjectives versus the utter contempt they show for him in private among each other or
when they're talking off the record. And so, it has never been so gaping as anything I've seen in my career. And there's always going to be, you know,
different audiences, different people, different sides people. But it's just been a striking thing to watch.
GOLODRYGA: Perhaps the darker side of this though is the fear factor and the intimidation, and not just the proximity to power and the relevance,
but concern, as we've heard out of these hearings and as we've heard over the course of his administration in four years, the constant threats and
the harassment that some of these people, whether they were elected officials or those that were in his inner circle, anytime they thought they
would speak out or just do the right thing, they were constantly harassed and their families were threatened. I mean, that's authoritarian type of
behavior.
LEIBOVICH: Perfectly said. I mean, I'm glad you asked this because I think people focus too much on the psychological benefit or the opportunistic
benefit or the political benefit. I mean, at the end of the day, a lot of this was just rule by fear.
I remember talking to a lot of, sort of, you know, fairly anonymous Republican congressmen right around January 6th, and they were all freaked
out. They were all going to vote for certification of Joe Biden, because that's what people do. That's always what happens every four years except
in a few, you know, isolated cases.
But then, they were sort of freaked out. They're getting no leadership. Kevin McCarthy was going AWOL and they were saying, you know, I can't vote
for certification. I mean, one, you know, Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz was the senators and Jim Jordan these -- you know, a lot of members of Congress are
saying, all right, I'm going to go and vote against certification and the president is calling for it. And if I don't, my family will be in trouble.
I -- my -- in jeopardy, I cannot do this to myself or my family. I have young kids.
And they would say to each other and they would be almost in tears sometimes. And, you know, there were a lot of accounts for this. And again,
like as you said, that is the dictionary definition of authoritarianism. That is not politics by persuasion, debate, even political interest, that
is just straight up intimidation and that's what this is.
GOLODRYGA: Short-term, the Republican Party got what they want. They got Trump in office. They may well get the midterms and the House in just a few
months. Longer-term, how damaging has he been for the party as a whole? Was he perhaps not worth electing?
LEIBOVICH: You know, the price has been really, really high, and they've lost a lot. Half of the Republicans who were in Congress when Donald Trump
took over either retired or defeated. So, there's been a lot of turnovers.
You know, they got judges, but what they have now is they also have a mess. I mean, they are still very much at the mercy of this one guy. And even now
-- I mean, yes, I think it's likely that Republicans with the House of Representatives, but Donald Trump and his candidates are probably going to
cough up a few Senate seats for Republicans.
GOLODRYGA: I mean, look what he's done to Georgia.
LEIBOVICH: Look what he's done to Georgia. I mean, Herschel Walker, total Trump acolyte. Not a strong candidate. Has not performed well. Dr. Ross
(ph) in Pennsylvania, you know, it seems like he's off to a pretty bad start. Not proven to be a great candidate. There are other examples across
the country.
So, you know, those are big races. The Senate is extremely important, obviously. And, you know, we'll see. But the larger problem is, I don't
think people -- and if -- these are all conservatives. I mean, this has not been a conservative movement in a policy sense. So, I mean, I don't know.
Again, I mean, will they look back on it? Is it a net plus or net minus? I don't know. I don't know if they even bother to think that way.
But right now, when you talk to them, a lot of it is just they seem very unhappy to be trying to defend this. They're doing it. They're saying what
they need to say, but I just don't sense a lot of joy and just continuing to have to live with Donald Trump.
GOLODRYGA: Well, finally, I mean, they've been doing what their constituents have been pressuring them to do. And I'm wondering if you're
starting to see a shift, because in the book, and this stood out to me, you talk to voter who was, I think, a waitress at a diner in Ohio.
LEIBOVICH: Right.
GOLODRYGA: And you say, I hear this time and time again, that Trump was a truthteller despite his lines.
LEIBOVICH: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: Where is the base now? Recent "New York Times" (INAUDIBLE) found that nearly half the Republican Party's primary voters are seeking
someone other than Trump in 2024. There's this heated contest now between him and DeSantis, Governor DeSantis of Florida. Do you think that he will
continue to have this grip over the party and the base in the years ahead?
[23:15:00]
LEIBOVICH: I do. And I think the reason is, first of all -- I mean, yes, people are weary of Trump and the Republican Party, half of them. But that
same poll, that same "New York Times" poll, I mean, you know, he was pretty rock solid with 45 percent. And if -- its Ron DeSantis alone, yes, maybe it
could be a good head-to-head, just like it could have been a good head-to- head with Ted Cruz and Donald Trump four years ago, or Marco Rubio and Donald Trump.
Unfortunately, there's going to be -- or, unfortunately, for the challenger, is there's going to be more than one of them. I mean, I don't
think Ted Cruz or Mike Pompeo are the type persons to say, oh, I think I'm just going to step aside and leave Ron DeSantis' the hope of the party.
GOLODRYGA: Or Pence.
LEIBOVICH: Or Pence. Exactly. I mean -- so, yes. I mean, a lot of it just comes down to math at a certain point. But I also think, look, I mean,
they're all -- even DeSantis is a Trump adjacent candidate. He's -- he built his whole career on just sort of absolute sycophancy to Donald Trump.
And, you know, and then, he's acting kind of like Trump.
And I also -- I mean, I don't think a guy like that is going to scale well, once Trump gets his hands on them, he's not terribly compelling personality
and --
GOLODRYGA: Do you think Trump runs again?
LEIBOVICH: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: And if that's the case, then does Joe Biden -- because he said, the only reason he ran the first time was to defeat Donald Trump.
LEIBOVICH: Yes. I mean, the Democrats have their own issues. I mean, Biden has his own issues, obviously. I mean, I think, you know, one of the
menaces of Donald Trump -- I mean, the focus of my book was on his effect on the Republican Party and how they reacted to him. It's also made the
Democrats very risk averse.
You know, Joe Biden was nominated in 2020 because he was the safest choice. OK. He's familiar. He scares the fewest number of people. He's most likely
to beat Trump, and it was the right calculation. I mean, do we have to go back to that in three years, in two years? Maybe. You know, I think most
Americans would say it's kind of a depressing prospect to think about running that back. But, you know, Democrats are as afraid of Trump, if not
more so than Republicans are. And so, here we are.
GOLODRYGA: Mark, we'll leave it there. Thank you so much. It's a great book. Walk down memory lane, for better or worse.
LEIBOVICH: Thanks, Bianna. Appreciate it.
GOLODRYGA: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Japan's longest serving prime minister, Shinzo Abe, was laid to rest this week. Huge crowds gathered in Tokyo to bid him a final farewell.
And now, attention is turning to the suspect and his assassination, and what might have motivated him.
According to police, the 41-year-old had a grudge against the church that he believed Abe's grandfather, another former prime minister, helped to
expand. Police have not named the organization. But scrutiny is falling on the Unification Church and not for the first time. Correspondent Kyung Law
tells us more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): The suspect in the assassination of Japan's former prime minister in custody. Police continue to comb the
scene for clues. And an investigation increasingly turning to an organization with a controversial past, the Unification Church, born in
Korea, with tentacles from Japan to the United States.
LAH (voiceover): Would you describe them as a cult?
SIMON LEE, ACADEMIC RESEARCHER: Academics, they like use that term, cults. The terms that used now is new religious movements.
LAH (voiceover): Academic Researcher Simon Lee studies a Unification Church, religion back in the spotlight after Shinzo Abe's murder. Police
say Tetsuya Yamagami was angry at a group that he believed Abe had ties to. Police have not named that group. But a day before Abe's murder, the
Unification Church says Yamagami fired bullets at what used to be one of its buildings.
At a news conference, the church also says the suspect's mother is a member. Japanese local media report, the suspect told police she made large
donations that ruined the family financially. CNN has not been able to reach her about her purported involvement with the church.
The president of the church's Japanese branch did not elaborate on the mother's alleged donations, but says he was made aware that she had
financial troubles and distanced themselves from the crime.
We're struggling to understand why this happens, says the church president. We will cooperate with the police to reveal his motives.
But claims of the church taking advantage of its members wealth are not new. Lawyer Takashi Yamaguchi has represented dozens of plaintiffs and
lawsuits against the Unification Church in Japan.
LAH (on camera): Japan is the ATM for the religion?
TAKASHI YAMAGUCHI, LAWYER: Yes, it's the ATM. Yes.
LAH (voiceover): The common thread, Yamaguchi says, his client's claim they gave the church all their life savings.
LAH (on camera): So, you're not talking about a few $100.00. We're talking about tens of thousands of dollars that these victims lose?
YAMAGUCHI: You're neglecting a couple of zeros.
LAH: Wow. Millions?
YAMAGUCHI: You're missing out a couple of zeros. So, destroying families, destroying human relationships. In fact, they're destroying freewill of the
people.
LAH (voiceover): The church president said that, "Donations from our believers are based on their individual will."
[23:20:00]
This religious group is no stranger to public scrutiny. In the 1980s, church founder, Reverend Sun Myung Moon, expanded his faith into the
American zeitgeist. A well-known figure in Korea and Japan by then, he led mass wedding and vow renewal ceremonies. The church rapidly expanded in the
States. His followers known as the Moonies were outspoken defenders.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love him. I respect him. I want to follow him wherever he is.
LAH (voiceover): But trouble would soon follow.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The federal government says it's investigating the Reverend Sun Myung Moon, leader of the Unification Church.
LAH (voiceover): Moon was convicted of tax fraud and spent about a year in prison. He died in 2012 triggering a family feud. His widow, Han Hak Ja, is
now in charge of the Unification Church. His son's broke away, forming a rival religion, headquartered in Pennsylvania. The Sanctuary Church, also
known as Rod of Iron Ministries.
The AR-15 rifle, they say, is the modern incarnation of the Iron Rod in the Book of Revelations. The ideological rift between sons and mothers spills
over to their followers. This fight between the two factions was just this month in Japan. And Sanctuary Church dismissed speculation that the suspect
in Abe's assassination might have been one of its parishioners.
Japanese media reports Yamagami told police he blamed not just Abe but his grandfather, Nobusuke Kishi. Kishi, also a prime minister, attended
Unification Church events. Abe spoke at a Unification event just last year. Whether that family connection became an obsession of the suspect, now
seems to be a focus of the investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Our thanks to Kyung Lah for that report.
Returning now to a new documentary, investigating The Boy Scouts of America. "Leave No Trace" exposes some of the 82,000 claims or sexual abuse
against the youth organization with firsthand accounts from survivors. Director Irene Taylor and Former Boy Scout Stuart Lord joined Hari
Sreenivasan to discuss the century long cover up.
And just to note that this conversation does contain accounts of abuse, which may be difficult for some to hear.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARI SREENIVASAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Irene Taylor, Stuart Lord, thank you both for joining us.
First, Irene, to you. Why do this film about scouting? I mean, how integral has scouting been in American life and more specifically, your family?
IRENE TAYLOR, DIRECTOR, "LEAVE NO TRACE ": I think scouting is part of our American fabric. I mean, there's a whole mythology around what a good scout
is. It's practically used to describe -- it's synonymous with integrity.
I have three sons, two of them were scouts, and it was a big part of my family. We would go on outings together, and I didn't know what, at the
time, I've lived here in Oregon. But it turned out that our counsel here in my local area of Portland, Oregon, had a strong history, a dark history
that I wasn't aware of.
SREENIVASAN: Stuart Lord, I want to ask you, why did you join scouting? And what happened to you?
STUART LORD, FORMER BOY SCOUT: Why join scouting as -- well, I was 11 years old. I joined when they recruited boys at my elementary school. I
joined because I wanted to be outdoors. I grew up in New Rochelle in New York, and scouting allowed me an opportunity to participate, to really
develop as a leader of being a patrol leader and leading other boys and it was a way for me to be active as a young person.
So, I benefit a lot from scouting and also was harmed by scouting. And beginning around 11 years old until I was 18, I was abused, sexually abused
by my assistant scoutmaster and other people he introduced me to.
SREENIVASAN: I myself am a boy scouter or was a boy scout and eagle scout. And the first one, the scout law, is a scout is trustworthy. How much did
trust have to play with how these men were able to take advantage of you?
LORD: Yes. A scout is trustworthy and other things that develop character. And so, I trusted my scoutmaster. They -- my scoutmaster met my mom and
realize that I didn't have a father, and ask my mom if he could sort of -- you know, become that surrogate father. He used to call himself my dad
sometime. And so, there was -- when he introduced himself to my mom, my mom said, yes, I love for you to pay attention to Stuart. And that paid
attention to resulted in him taking advantage of me and grooming me.
[23:25:00]
And I trusted him and he also threatened me, but I still trusted him because, best way, I learned to trust adults and authority. And he was
another adult that I trusted.
SREENIVASAN: Irene, this was not limited to a specific troop or a council or a city, your documentary goes and looks at the documents and find that
this happened all over the United States. How do we know exactly how many children were taken advantage of? Who kept the records?
TAYLOR: The Boy Scouts kept the records. They called them internally, the perversion files. And I think that tells you a lot right there. More
formerly, they were called the ineligible volunteer files.
The concept behind them was that they would keep record of men who were not suitable to be scout leaders. We know that these records go back at least
to the 1930s. We suspect they went back earlier than that, but the Boy Scouts themselves acknowledged in the early 1930s that they had these
files. They called them their red files at the time.
And we also know that when we started making the film shortly after they announced their bankruptcy a couple years back, we know that the lawyers
involved at the time thought there would be maybe 7,000, 10,000, maybe 12,000.00 men or boys and girls who would come forward with allegations of
abuse as part of the bankruptcy case.
Well, lo and behold, eight months later, that number was 82,000. So, that's 82,000.00 men, boys and girls who said that they were abused at the hands
of someone within the scouting organization. Now, does that mean that there are more out there? It doesn't take a huge imagination to imagine that
there are. It's very hard for men -- it's very hard for anyone who's been sexually traumatized to come forward and talk about it, especially when
there's the pressure of a deadline. And there was a legal deadline for this bankruptcy by which you had to file your case.
SREENIVASAN: I want to play a clip here on how widespread the abuse was.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What we saw was trip leaders being found to have abused children at one troop and then, you know, here they are popping up a
year later at another truth in a different state. And again, and again. So, it was just really clear physical evidence that they had known for decades
and decades that these men were assaulting these boys.
On this one level, a phenomenal job of tracking them. And then, on the other hand, completely dropped the ball and making sure that they couldn't
and wouldn't abuse other children in the program. What (ph) the hell else would those files before.
SREENIVASAN: Stuart, when you see that and you realize this was an organization that was working almost to protect the people that hurt
children. They were supposed to protect you.
LORD: Yes. It saddens me to know that the Boy Scouts were so concerned at protecting leaders and not protecting young men and young boys who were
growing entrusted to scouting and its American tragedy of what happened and to think back as a young person growing up that no one had that
conversation with me as a young person about safety and about right and wrong when it comes to be sexually abused by -- excuse me, by some of the
scoutmasters.
SREENIVASAN: I want to read part of a statement from the Boy Scouts of America. It says, while any instance of abuse is one to many, the
overwhelming majority of claims filed in the national organization's Chapter 11 case relate to allegations of abuse that occurred before our
modern use protection policies were implemented more than three decades ago. That does not in any way absolve us of what happened in the past, but
I hope it demonstrates that we take youth protection extremely seriously.
And, Irene, I want to follow up with that -- of that statement. The files that came up in the lawsuit, that's not all of them. And your documentary
mentioned that there were a large number of claims that came after the scouts put these youth protection policies in place.
TAYLOR: That's right. And I think that the Boy Scouts have missed a number of opportunities to strengthen the barriers for these men to get into the
organization. And they are really trying to look forward. The organization is trying to look forward. This is what I have observed.
[23:30:00]
But, you know, those 82,000 men and boys and girls, they have trouble looking forward because they keep looking back. This is the reality of
sexual trauma. And I think that there is a lot of reckoning that needs to take place with the organization. And one of the things that I hope, with
this film, that we can do is just have people talk about it.
SREENIVASAN: I want to play a clip of two young men -- children that you were able to profile it for this film.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He wanted to be a police officer. And he was told that going to the scouts and everything would be the best way to do it. So,
that was his goal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She heard stories, me telling her about what it was like when I was a scout.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had a blast.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And so, I wanted that for Chris.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I've thrived in it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And they let Nathan join in every now and then.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nathan was a mascot. So, he was old enough to join.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Chris has been going through such a hard time. And Doug kept trying to -- Chris couldn't stay with me. We thought that was
normal. How are we supposed to know? We didn't know. We have a child molester telling us what the rules are, which according to him, there are
none.
SREENIVASAN: When those parents find out what happened to that boy, there's a scene where it was literally the first time they're hearing about
it because the young man has never spoken about it to them. And I think that that's probably the case for lots of victims.
TAYLOR: My way into this film was I met a social worker whose full-time job, Monday through Friday, eight hours a day, was to interview survivors
of sexual abuse at the hands of a scoutmaster, full-time job. And she told me that most of the men she spoke with were telling someone for the first
time, she said, people in their 80s and even in their 90s were calling her about abuse that occurred in the 1940s.
Just last week, my producing partner, Nigel Jacquiss, was the investigative reporter who worked on the film with me. We got an e-mail from a gentleman
who identified himself, told us he was 84 years old and said that he was abused in the 1950s by his scoutmaster. And that so many of the stories in
our film which had children as young as 14 and a man is older 74, he said that their stories resonated exactly with his own experience.
And he said that, at that time, in the 1950s, he was told as a young boy that if he wanted to get ahead in the Boy Scouts, he would follow his
scoutmaster's wish.
SREENIVASAN: Stuart, how did this affect you in all the years between when you suffered at the hands of a pedophile and until you finally talked about
it?
LORD: Well, growing up as a young person, I grew up having to be silent. I grew up having to live two lives. I didn't feel safe to tell anyone. When I
got the courage to tell someone, my mother, my foster mother, she died. And so, I had to keep this burden inside of me. It made me angry. I felt alone.
I was afraid of the dark. I was afraid of my house that I grew up in until I went away to college.
And so, you know, I grew up angry. I grew up feeling that I was in the world alone sometimes. And at the same time, I had a community from my
church. And so, I was in and out of both worlds, two worlds, living two lives. And you know, there were moments that I thought I was dying. Did I
think about suicide? Of course, I thought about suicide. And -- but because I wanted to honor my foster mother and what she had done for me that I had
to build my life and live a life away from my abuses.
And so, I realized that I needed to get help. I needed to get some counseling and I needed to avail myself to navigate and live one life. And
so, speaking out and getting counseling and participating eight hours sessions. And I'm still in counseling and I may come across as if my -- I'm
together, but I am a heart warrior, someone who is been through a war of internal strife and knowing that true happiness comes from helping others
is one of my mantras that helps me navigate my abuse and being able to be available for others.
[23:35:00]
SREENIVASAN: Stuart, do you ever wonder about how your life would be if this had not happened to you?
LORD: Yes, I have -- I often thought about that little Stuart inside of me, that little boy who was 11, 12, 13, had it not happened to that person.
How much freer, you know. I probably would have danced much more freer. I would a run not having to look back and I would have -- you know, I often
talk to that person, and I tell myself because, Stuart, it wasn't your fault and you're not alone.
And so, that the little boy who wasn't -- if -- you know, who was abuse, if he wasn't abused, would have had a childhood and my childhood was stolen
from me. And so, yes.
SREENIVASAN: Irene, where are the Boy Scouts now when it comes to an -- as an organization, financially, membership wise?
TAYLOR: Well, just in the last six months and in the last month, there have been numerous articles about councils around the country who are
starting to sell off land. What the scouts are going to need to do is liquidate their assets to pay their debts effectively.
The bankruptcy is still in process. So, I think -- we also know their membership has been steadily declining since the 1970s and it's at an all-
time low now. So, I think they are cleaning house, so to speak. But it's really unknown at this point what decisions they're going to make.
Still thousands of perversion files have not been released and the survivors who are part of this 82,000 have voted, and the majority of them
do want the scouts to release those files. And the scouts have not agreed to do that. The scouting organization has not allowed to -- it has not been
willing to do that. And I think that would be a very powerful message for them to demonstrate to America and to survivors that if they release those
files, that is their way of looking back and acknowledging, we still have more looking back to do.
Because the men who are -- have abusers who are in those files, those files would be very meaningful on their own journey towards healing. And it also
-- remember, some of these perpetrators, they're out there right now. Right now. So, we can also stop those perpetrators from accessing my boys and
girls now
SREENIVASAN: Stuart, I've heard you say that, you know, you chose to speak out not in an effort to destroy scouting, that you have, in some ways,
reached a level of forgiveness. But I wonder, what do you say to the survivors of sexual abuse who have not come forward, who are still
struggling, who might be in the same place you were 15, 20 years ago?
LORD: So, I say to the survivors that, if you've been threatened, then you can still come forward because there are people who will believe you and
that you're not alone. There's one and six boys who experience child sexual abuse before the age of 18. And to reach out for help, to seek counseling,
to be able -- just to be able to say, first of all, that I've been abused, and decide how much of the story you going to tell.
I wish that every boy scout and every young person and parent would watch this film, to have that discussion, to realize that breaking the silence
can feel as worse than the abuse itself. But take your small steps, seek therapy, seek counseling, and began this long journey with a trusted
friend.
SREENIVASAN: Stuart Lord and Irene Taylor, the film is called "Leave No Trace." It's available on Hulu now. Thank you both so much for your time.
TAYLOR: Thank you.
LORD: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: We reached out to the Boy Scouts of America for comment on the Hulu film and the calls from a majority of survivors to release additional
files on sexual abuse within the Boy Scouts ranks. We have not heard back.
[23:40:00]
Well, it's difficult to hear those harrowing stories of abuse, and then, from the pandemic to the cost-of-living crisis, the brutal war Ukraine and
mass shootings in the U.S. The news has certainly been overwhelming and at times, just downright bleak. Many are feeling despair at the world.
And my next guest is hoping to help us find the light in all of that bleakness. Psychologist and bestselling author Mary Pipher's latest book,
"A Life in Light: Meditations on Impermanence," offers hope for the dark times and insight into how to cope with change and trauma. Here's our
conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Well, Mary, thank you so much for joining us. You begin the book by describing how difficult the pandemic was for you as it was for so
many of us. What led you, ultimately, to write this book coming out of the pandemic?
MARY PIPHER, AUTHOR, "A LIFE IN LIGHT: MEDITATIONS ON IMPERMANENCE": Yes. Well, first of all, I hadn't planned to write another book. This is my 12th
book. And I was pretty happy with the life I had without writing.
But what happened during the pandemic was I started to feel a lot of despair and loneliness. I couldn't see my children and my grandchildren and
my friends. My husband is a full-time musician and he just stopped playing music. I stopped going to dances. And I realized that, first of all, I
needed a project. And a project I thought might be useful to the world and a project that might be useful to me in terms of helping me find the
sunlight in a very dark time.
And so, I came upon the idea of writing about both literal and metaphorical light, but especially metaphorical light in the sense I've had a life,
probably very much like most people, that's been partly light and partly shadow. And when I've been in the shadows, when I've been having the dark
time, I've sought the light. I've tried to find a resilient way to move into joy and calmness.
So, that's really what I wanted to write about, is the times in my own life when I'd been capable of self-rescue with the hope that readers might see
in this ways they also could write their own life and light and find ways to be more skillful and energetic in their pursuit of light in a very dark
time.
GOLODRYGA: You describe light, as you just said, both literally and metaphorically. Let's start with literally, because light became an
important factor into your life very early, one of your first memories. Can you talk about that at the age of one?
PIPHER: I was carried out onto a blanket in my grandmother's yard down in the Ozarks. And I remember, I don't have any verbal memory for this. I have
a visual memory for this. I was looking up through a tree and watching the sunlight sparkle and dance through leaves. And even though I was a baby and
more less preverbal, I was absolutely entranced by that light, and I remembered, I still remember that experience.
Then, later in my life, I'm very solar powered person. I encode memory with light. And so, a lot of the real pivotal experiences of my childhood, both
good and bad, have light as a central character. For example, I write about a time early in the book when my father was in the Korean War, my mother
was in medical school, my brothers and myself were pretty feral children without much adult support.
But on Saturday nights, my mother drive us out to the Keyaway (ph) Fountain outside of Denver. And would sit on the hood of the car and watch this
color wheel light up this beautiful splashy fountain with different colors. And eventually, my mother would fall asleep in the driver's seat and my
brothers would get down and wrestle around on the ground. But I wouldn't leave the hood, I would just watch that light. And then, on the way home,
I'd shut my eyes and remember that beauty.
So, one of the things I talk about in the book is we're in a very dark time in America. Most of us are in a fairly dark place, not so much in a
personal day-to-day life but when we expand beyond that to the bigger picture. And the anecdotes for the despair we feel oftentimes our joy and
love and even transcendent experience. And all of those things are possible with attitude, with energy, with attention.
[23:45:00]
GOLODRYGA: I want to pick up on that, because another major theme in this book is impermanence. And this leads to a passage that I'd like to read
from the book, the convergence there of both light and impermanence. And I'm going to quote this passage and then, we can talk about it after,
looking for the light does not mean denying the darkness. I try not to micromanage my feelings. If I am heart broken, I let myself be heartbroken.
If I am sad, angry, confused, or in despair, I allow myself to feel those emotions. That is the only way to be an honest, authentic person. But even
as I try to stay with pain, I also know that it will pass. Pain, like almost everything else, is impermanent.
How long did it take for you to appreciate and really, I guess, come to terms with impermanence?
PIPHER: Well, I'm not entirely there yet in terms of accepting impermanence. But I've been working on it for a very long time. And one of
the things I realize is for these latter years of my life, what I really need to do to be happy is come to terms with loss and actually, do some
detaching from relationships, because the relationships are coming and going at a much rapid rate now.
And so, I've worked in a lot of ways on that. To me, the greatest skills for -- or the greatest resources for coming to terms with impermanence are
meditation and Buddhism, which basically are lessons in accepting impermanence and change, and instead, living in the present moment and
living with the breath, very important skills.
Then, the other thing that, for me, is extremely helpful is being in the natural world, which is calming in its own way, but is ever changing. And
especially when I'm in despair, one of my big tricks is I'll go out and I'll lie down on the driveway of my house and look up at the stars at
night. And I've done in this -- this in the winter. I did it after Sandy Hook. I was in such despair that I felt like I needed to ground myself and
the whole solar system to be able to recover and feel calm.
But the natural world is a wonderful way to restore a sense of calmness and presence. And just slightly, sensual Uvalde, since the Supreme Court
decisions on Roe and gun rights, I've been going out in the mornings and walking for half an hour, walking meditation, walking at sunset, so that I
can have it both ends of the day and experience of peace and beauty.
GOLODRYGA: When were you first introduced to meditation and Buddhism, and how was that incorporated into your professional work?
PIPHER: Well, I was -- I came to Buddhism quite late. Actually, I'd written a book called "The Middle of Everywhere," which was a love song to
refugees. I sent it off to my editor in early September 2001. And two or three days later, were the 911 attacks. And my book was immediately stale.
Its shelf life was over. And so, I worked very hard to help my editor sell that book. Was riding around on plains at a time most people didn't want to
be on planes.
I was away from my family a great deal. I don't think that was the year, but I had a year I slept in hotel room speaking more than I slept in my own
bed. And somewhere in November that year, I just hit a wall and I realized I can't do this anymore. I need to be home. I need to be with my landscape,
my cat, my husband. And I came home and when I read psychology, I felt unhealthy. I felt depressed. I felt anxious. I use the label psychologists
used to describe people who are suffering.
But when I read Buddhism, I felt human. I felt like I was experiencing what all humans experience. And I felt a deep connection with people throughout
history and people across geography that were suffering. And also, I learned a set of skills through meditation that were very useful for me. I
stayed home for about six months. I rearranged my schedule to a considerable extent and it's been really helpful. This worked very well for
me.
[23:50:00]
The possibility of world war, climate change, possibly nuclear accidents or war. These things are profoundly upsetting to we -- to us humans. And what
happens, I think, to most of us is we decide to live primarily in our small lives and not face the trauma of our larger lives. We certainly don't talk
about it very much because we don't want to bring our friends down. We don't want to walk into a room and create despair, but it's there. And if
we can face it, we can work with it. Anything that can be faced can be worked with.
GOLODRYGA: I do want to make sort of a full circle of your own life because what really stood out to me was your relationship with your family
and how important that was, you know, growing up as the daughter of a war veteran who suffer from PTSD, a mother who was distant, very bright, but
perhaps now on the spectrum. And the one the one pillar in your life, the one constant, the one person who was there for you as you were in search of
love was your grandmother, perhaps that's one of the first number that you talk about at the age of just one, you look very hard to find love.
Then, you found it with her. You say she knew you and loved you into existence. Little things about even knowing what kind of cookies --
PIPHER: Yes, yes, yes.
GOLODRYGA: -- that you like gave you gave you that special feeling of her for needing to be here and your existence as a whole.
Fast forward to what your experience has been like now as a mother and the grandmother and the chapter in your book, "Will They Remember?" I'm going
to read from it, it's a beautiful chapter here, and I'm just going to quote, "Will my grandchildren remember how when they were babies, I carried
them outside to look at the sky and the green? How I tickled their faces with flowers and blue dandelion fluff for them to watch?"
I just can't help but think of how you're able to compartmentalize and pull chunks of memories from your life and how that has helped you become the
woman that you are now and the grandmother that you are now. What can people learn from that in terms of dealing with their own past and their
own future?
PIPHER: Well, you know, what my grandmother taught me was inner resources. And really what I believe we all have some control over, an agency around,
is a development of inner resources. And in -- I wrote an op-ed "The New York Times" recently, and I mentioned this grandmother who said things to
me like, be the kind of person you want to live with every day of your life. And on her death bed, when I asked her if she was happy, she said, I
don't think of my life that way. I ask myself, is the world a better place because I was on it?
And she was wonderful. I did dishes with her so we could talk. And I said what very early in this experience of doing dishes with my grandmother,
let's do these dishes really slowly. And we had beautiful long moral conversations during that time. I try to talk to my own grandchildren when
I have a chance, I try to be someone like my grandmother and teach them what I know. The other great inner strengths that I've been able to access
to a certain extent are from psychology and the business of learning how to face pain and stay with pain and learn from it and find ways to grow from
it.
GOLODRYGA: I love how you said light is your intoxicant, and that is something --
PIPHER: Yes, it is.
GOLODRYGA: -- we can all take away from your story, obviously, while we embrace some of those dark moments too that we have to live with. You know,
we always have to search for the light as well.
Thank you so much for joining us. This is a really meaningful conversation. I would appreciate it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GEIST: And finally, two iconic women immortalized. A statue of civil rights pioneer. Mary McLeod Bethune has officially been unveiled in the U.
S. Capital Statuary Hall. An influential educator, she opened a boarding school for black children, led voter registration drives for women in 1920,
and served as an advisor to five U.S. presidents. Her statue replaces that of a confederate soldier.
And the "Queen of the Jungle," Jane Goodall, is venturing into the Barbie world as the latest addition to the company's inspiring women collection.
Barbie Jane also includes chip companion, David Gray Beard, a notebook and a pair of binoculars with 90 percent of the doll made from recycled
plastics. Their release coincides with the 62nd anniversary of Jane Goodall's first trip to the Forest of Tanzania.
And that is it for now. You can always catch it online, on our podcast and across social media. Thank you so much for watching and goodbye from New
York.
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