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Amanpour
Interview With Adviser To Odessa Mayor Nikolai Viknyansky; Interview With Moldovan President Maia Sandu; Interview With Dizyngoff And Decole Chef And Co-Owner Nika Lozovska; Interview With "Tears We Cannot Stop" Author Michael Eric Dyson. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired August 28, 2023 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:30]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour" live from Odessa, Ukraine. Here's what's coming up.
A postcard from Odessa. How life continues in war-torn Ukraine? And my visit to a rehab center.
Then, caught in the crosshairs. As the counteroffensive moves south and Kyiv says it's liberated more areas, the port city of Odessa is vital
lifeline for both sides. The mayor's advisor joins me.
And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAIA SANDU, MOLDOVAN PRESIDENT: And I do hope that more support will be coming soon so that Ukraine could recover its territories and we will see
an end to this crazy war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- standing up to authoritarianism in this neighborhood. My exclusive interview with the Moldovan president, Maia Sandu, celebrating 32
years of independence from the USSR.
Plus, a small act of defiance, how one restaurant in Odessa refuses to allow war to close it down. I asked Chef Nika Lozovska about food as
resistance.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, AUTHOR, "TEARS WE CANNOT STOP": There's no question, the king goes off and delivers one of the greatest speeches in American
oratorical history because he had practiced it in his soul and in his mind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- 60 years since Martin Luther King Jr.'s historic march on Washington. Walter Isaacson speaks to the author and academic Michael Eric
Dyson on what's changed for black Americans.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour live in Odessa, Ukraine. It is the Pearl of the Black Sea, as it's known. This major port
city has borne the brunt of Russian missile attacks in the last few weeks. On Friday, Ukraine intercepted four missiles and a drone and Ukraine has
also stepped up some of its own attacks during the -- during Russian targets inside Crimea.
As the counteroffensive moves south, today, Kyiv's defense ministry says its forces have liberated areas along the southern front line near
Robotyne. Before the Russian invasion, nearly two-thirds of the country's exports and imports moved through Odessa's ports. It's a vital economic
lifeline.
The most important commodity of course is grain, but there are other materials as well. Odessa was also a thriving holiday destination. There
are a few, if -- there are few, if any foreign tourists, but Ukrainians flocked back to these beaches this summer.
And today, I found out how important that is for people who are trying to soothe their trauma and even for soldiers battling the physical and mental
scars of war.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR (voiceover): In the waning days of a second summer at war under the blazing Black Sea sun, you find, well, people at the beach. It's
actually the first time some of this Odessa coastline has been open for business since the Russian invasion. And while Olga (ph) brought her family
for a change of scenery, there is no getting away from it.
AMANPOUR: Here, can you forget the war for a little bit?
OLGA (PH) (through translator): Sirens at night don't let you forget. No, we don't forget. At least I don't. But I hope my kids and parents get
distracted a little bit.
AMANPOUR (voiceover): Still, those who can make the most of it. Life goes on, even in war time. And here at the Kaleton Beach Club it's somehow
comforting to watch parents slap protective gear onto their infants as if sunburn is the worst that can happen. But of course, it's not.
AMANPOUR: So, is it -- is that -- does that mean orthopedics or anything?
AMANPOUR (voiceover): Fifteen minutes away in the center of town is a modern private recovery and rehabilitation unit, one of 10 set up around
the country by a Ukrainian philanthropist. Here in a full body sling, 41- year-old Vitali (ph) tells us that he volunteered for the front as a deminer, until he was blown up by an anti-personnel mine eight months ago
in Kherson.
The first wave hit my face because I was bending down, he says, and shrapnel entered my eye. Another bit hit my finger and three of my toes
were blown off.
On the rehab bed next to him. 43-year-old Ruslan's (ph) injury is less dramatic, spine and back problems from suddenly having to haul heavy gear
around.
[13:05:00]
AMANPOUR: Do you need to get into better shape?
AMANPOUR (voiceover): If I was 20, he tells me, it would be different. But I'm 43. And so, it's difficult.
But he wants to go back to the front like Vitali (ph) does just as soon as they're patched up. Still motivated, still sure of victory. But then, the
talk suddenly turns.
AMANPOUR: Vitali?
VITALI (PH): Yes.
AMANPOUR: What do you think you need?
AMANPOUR (voiceover): Immobilized and prone, he's crystal clear. We need more weapons and jets to close the sky from the Russian missiles, he says.
When a soldier is fighting there and his family is here unprotected, what do you think goes through our minds?
Andri (ph) tells me his psychological trauma is worse than the shrapnel to his hand. Because he, like all of them, want to be back at the front with
their comrades to fight for their country and their family.
I have a mother, a father, a wife and a cat, he tells me.
Back at the seaside, Sergei (ph), a 59-year-old conscript based in Kherson defends his beach team break.
AMANPOUR: In the middle of war, you don't feel strange?
SERGEI (PH): Yes. It's mostly likely a little bit strange, but we need some direction.
AMANPOUR (voiceover): He'll be back under arms after his 15-day furlough. But he insists their counteroffensive is going to according to plan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR (on camera): It is an important reminder of preserving the fabric of life even amidst war. Now, as we mentioned, Odessa is key to Ukraine's
grain exports and all its exports, frankly. Over the weekend, Ukraine tested a second vessel through a temporary Black Sea corridor that it
established since Russia pulled out of the U.N. grain deal last month.
But Odessa is also a major historical site. With rich cultural history encompassing Russians, Jews, Ottomans as well as, of course, as Ukrainians.
And the world was very shocked when Russian missiles badly damaged the historic Orthodox Cathedral. It's a UNESCO world heritage site. And our
next guest, Nikolai Viknyansky, is an advisor to the mayor of Odessa. Welcome to our program.
And look, first of all, comment on what's happening behind us. The sun has gone down. It's kind of dark. But all these beaches below have been full
for the first time in -- since the war.
NIKOLAI VIKNYANSKY, ADVISER TO ODESSA MAYOR: Yes. It was full -- it's two weeks at the full. But the owners, the picture is a little scary because
there is no ships. We used to see a lot of lights at sea.
AMANPOUR: So, it's blank now?
VIKNYANSKY: And there is nothing.
AMANPOUR: It's completely blank?
VIKNYANSKY: It's completely black sea.
AMANPOUR: Completely the black sea.
VIKNYANSKY: Yes.
AMANPOUR: You guys can still make jokes even under war. You kind of have to, right? That's what all of this --
VIKNYANSKY: We joke because it's our life.
AMANPOUR: It's your life.
VIKNYANSKY: Yes.
AMANPOUR: So, let's just talk about that then because this is a major problem, trying to get exports out. Trying to get imports in. And yet, your
country has facilitated a second sea passage.
VIKNYANSKY: Yes.
AMANPOUR: How do you think that went? Is there going to be more of it? What can you tell us about that?
VIKNYANSKY: I don't know. We have to ask this -- or the military heist because their defense shoot (ph) somehow. I don't know how possible. But
thank them for it.
AMANPOUR: So, what is it that basically you and the mayor's office are dealing with most right now? Because you know, Odessa was kind of spared
the worst of the Russian assaults at the beginning. In the last month, it's really stepped up, the attacks by Russia.
VIKNYANSKY: Yes, a few situation a little bit better, but not a lot because one year ago, we thought that the war would be not more than one year. And
now, we understand that it might be for a good deal of life and we have no future.
AMANPOUR: You really think that, that it could be --
VIKNYANSKY: Oh, yes.
AMANPOUR: -- forever?
VIKNYANSKY: We don't think how to deal with it. And I understand that we, as a man, can be just finished. Because our potential -- the man quantity
is less three, four times than Russia. And that's why now I still run as advisor for the mayor for this about humanitarian issues around biggest
Ukraine humanitarian center, we support IDPs and then supply them with --
AMANPOUR: Those are internally displaced people?
VIKNYANSKY: -- humanitarian -- the IDPs, internally displaced people. So, in our center, which I follow with my friend, this is the biggest in
Ukraine. We have helped more than 200,000 families since --
AMANPOUR: That's a lot.
VIKNYANSKY: -- the beginning. It's a lot, yes.
AMANPOUR: Is that Odessa? So, is that people who are coming?
VIKNYANSKY: It's from everywhere.
AMANPOUR: Plus, IDPs? Yes.
VIKNYANSKY: From Mariupol, from Kherson, from everywhere.
AMANPOUR: And are they still coming even this late into the war?
VIKNYANSKY: Are still coming. Even now, still coming. Every day we have about 200 families.
[13:10:00]
AMANPOUR: You're not a military man, and I'm not asking you military questions.
VIKNYANSKY: Yes.
AMANPOUR: But, you know, you're saying you're concerned that this could go on for a long time. That they have, as you said, four times the number of
population than you have here in Ukraine. How is the counteroffensive being perceived here? How are people thinking about it and talking about it?
VIKNYANSKY: Different people thinks differently.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
VIKNYANSKY: But as for me, I have never overestimated it and I know a lot of soldiers. It's a lot of my have close friends now there, and I
understand that it's really difficult for them. It's difficult without airplanes, air fighters. It's difficult because everything is mined. And
so, as for me, everything goes as needed. It's OK. But at the same time, a lot of my friends, they lost their limbs, they're wounded, and understand
that I might be drafted.
AMANPOUR: You understand that you might be drafted?
VIKNYANSKY: Yes. Even tomorrow.
AMANPOUR: And you would go willingly?
VIKNYANSKY: Yes, of course.
AMANPOUR: You know, that is an incredible thing for people to understand and to hear you say that, because we were, as you saw, in a rehab center
just earlier today, and we saw people with severe wounds. And those who are being -- you know, being rehabilitated and recovering. And yet, every
single one of them said that they wanted to go back to the front.
VIKNYANSKY: Of course.
AMANPOUR: That the pull of their comrades and the pull of the idea of defending the homeland and their families is just huge still.
VIKNYANSKY: Yes. This is huge. I think even more than it was before. Because at the beginning, it was like reactive. And now, it's (INAUDIBLE).
And that's why now we understand that we have to go.
AMANPOUR: So, before you just did it because it was --
VIKNYANSKY: It was directly. Yes, it's (INAUDIBLE) reflection.
AMANPOUR: Yes. And now, it's a way of life.
VIKNYANSKY: Yes, of course. But it's our home.
AMANPOUR: Yes. You deal in humanitarian issues, but you're also a very, very prominent in the campaign to get Odessa named a UNESCO historical
site.
VIKNYANSKY: Yes, yes.
AMANPOUR: So, how did you feel in your heart where -- when the famous church was so badly damaged last month?
VIKNYANSKY: To be honest it's a little bit mistake because the church is a new building.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
VIKNYANSKY: It has never been --
AMANPOUR: Is that right?
VIKNYANSKY: -- UNESCO site. Yes.
AMANPOUR: OK.
VIKNYANSKY: But there are some --
AMANPOUR: It's called the transfiguration --
VIKNYANSKY: Yes, the transfiguration because (INAUDIBLE) in 1937 reintroduced church and after 2000, they rebuild it. So, this side, this is
new building, and --
AMANPOUR: But on a historic site?
VIKNYANSKY: On a historic site, but the building is new. But there were a lot of real historical buildings and I feel pity about that. But otherwise,
I know that now this is UNESCO site. And as soon as they bombed UNESCO site, this is a top level of military crime. And that's why we will take
them to the court. They -- I believe that we will have a lot -- enough money to rebuild everything, to restore everything.
AMANPOUR: So, you're optimistic --
VIKNYANSKY: It should help. Absolutely.
AMANPOUR: -- that you can recover? But tell me about -- do you think you can recover the fabric of the people, because, as we said, this is a very
mixed community that's been in Odessa, for hundreds of years, if not, you know, really a long time. You're Jewish, you told me. It's a very -- it's
been a very strong Jewish community here. Russians as well and Russian speakers. Ukrainian. I mean, there's just a lot. What is the fabric of --
VIKNYANSKY: I can tell you exactly the number, 133 different nations melted (ph) here together.
AMANPOUR: 133.
VIKNYANSKY: 133.
AMANPOUR: Wow.
VIKNYANSKY: Yes, yes, yes. I know that because I'm co-author of our nomination of this year for UNESCO and we started it a lot. And I even
didn't know before I started that worth that also special nation. Just a little but nation. So, there a lot.
AMANPOUR: And what's the war done?
VIKNYANSKY: I think our spirit as Odessa citizen, because we're something special, is still alive. And we will be here. So, everything is OK. We're
still Odessa. We're still -- we understand that we are all Ukrainians in spite I'm Jewish, my closest friend now he produces suicide drone. He's the
biggest producer in Ukraine.
AMANPOUR: Really?
VIKNYANSKY: He's Bulgarian. And so, I have another friend, he's -- Ulrich (ph). So -- but we are all Ukrainian.
AMANPOUR: Yes. And you still feel that way?
VIKNYANSKY: We still feel that, yes, yes. And so, my children -- I have two daughters. They know they turn to Ukrainian language, and so they are
Ukrainians.
AMANPOUR: And do you get sad at all that you're defending your own culture --
VIKNYANSKY: Of course.
[13:15:00]
AMANPOUR: -- and that comes almost -- I've seen, you know, statues of Pushkin, the great Russian poet, being taken down. And there seems to be,
yes, obviously, during war there's often sort of cultural war as well.
VIKNYANSKY: Yes. This is a cultural war, but not from our side. The cultural war is because Russia propaganda, they used this people as like
weapon against us. And I think this is the biggest problem. How they use it, not we. From our point of view, if they had to deal with a modern
Ukraine, it's one thing. But they get crazy. And it's why I -- for us, this is not a problem.
AMANPOUR: For many people, it does seem like a crazy war, including our next guest, the president of Moldova who called it that. Nikolai, thank you
very much, indeed, for joining us.
VIKNYANSKY: Thank you. Yes. Everything is OK?
AMANPOUR: Yes, everything is really good.
VIKNYANSKY: OK.
AMANPOUR: So, as I said, we traveled through Moldova this time on our way here into Southern Ukraine, because we wanted to check in with the
president who's hailed as bright spark against the authoritarianism that is setting in right around this region, of course, on her doorstep.
Now, Maia Sandu, whose nation borders Ukraine and is partly occupied by Russian soldiers today, ever since 1992, has earned a European Freedom
Fighter Award. Earlier this year, they bestowed that on her. And we spoke Sunday in the capitol as Moldova celebrated the 32nd Independence Day from
the Soviet Union.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: President, welcome to the program.
SANDU: Thank you very much.
AMANPOUR: So, we speak as you celebrate Independence Day more than three decades later. Do you feel that you are solid and secure in your
independence a year and a half into Russia's illegal war against Ukraine?
SANDU: We feel that we are more resilient. We are growing stronger. We have done a lot over the last two years. We have become more independent when it
comes to energy issues. Just to give you an example, a year ago, we were buying 100 percent our needs from -- for gas from Russia. Today, with the
exception of the Transnistrian region, we don't consume any Russian gas. Of course, there is a lot we have to do, but we have managed to defend our
democracy and will continue to fight for our democracy.
AMANPOUR: Do you feel -- because in the last few weeks, the Black Sea region has been a Russian target. Even, you know, the port on the Danube,
basically the Ukrainian port on the Danube, which is Romanian side, has had a warning shot at it. Do you feel that there is a military risk of -- I
know Moldova is not in NATO, but of Russia overstepping and pulling NATO in?
SANDU: We do feel safer today compared to a year ago. And again, we feel safer thanks to the resistance of the Ukrainian soldiers, of the Ukraine
people. Thanks to the courage of the Ukrainian leadership. But we do know that Russia continues to present a threat. Today, we are facing the hybrid
that when -- attempts from Russia. Last year, Russia tried to influence things in Moldova using the energy weapon. Then at the beginning of this
year, Russia tried to overthrow the government.
AMANPOUR: Your government?
SANDU: Using -- exactly, our government, using violent protesters. Well, it tried to use violent protesters, but since our institutions managed to deal
with the risk. Now, we see Russia trying to do other things. For instance, using dirty money to buy voters. And of course, we will see more of those
attempts by Russia to undermine our democratic processes, including the elections this year, when we have local elections next year, when we have
presidential elections.
So, we do feel safer thanks to the Ukrainian resistance, but we still need to do a lot to defend ourselves.
AMANPOUR: I'm really interested because you keep saying safer due to the Ukrainian resistance. Clearly, I'm reading into it, but clearly, Moldova
needs to be safe as an entity on its own. What is it going to take to make you safe from a revanchist Russia?
SANDU: We believe Moldova is going to be safe and Moldova's democracy will be preserved when Moldova becomes a member state. It's very clear to us
Russia will continue to be a threat, a big source of instability many years to come. That's why joining you is the only way for us to save democracy in
Moldova.
AMANPOUR: And we're sitting with a flag of the E.U. alongside of the Moldovan flag behind you to mark the fact that you have started that
process of accession.
[13:20:00]
SANDU: We have received the candidate status. We are very interested to initiate the negotiations. We're working hard on implementing the
conditions that the European Commission has formulated. We understand it's a long process.
We do have internal challenges. For instance, Justice Secretary Fuem (ph) and building efficient anti-corruption institutions is a serious task for
us, but we're very committed. We have full political support for this. And no matter how big the resistance is from within the system, because we
still have corrupt judges and corrupt prosecutors who do not want our reforms to succeed, we will succeed, because this is what the Moldovan
people want and this is what the E.U. expects from us.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you what you make of the whole Prigozhin affair? First, the attempted coup, apparently, then he called it off. And two months
later, he is presumed dead. And it is presumed, although denied by the Kremlin, that they had a hand in it. How do you read that as a president?
How does your intelligence services read it?
SANDU: This just reconfirms the risks which come from Russia, a country which does not have justice, which solves the problems the way it solves.
And unfortunately, this does not limit to Russia's borders. Unfortunately, this is the way Russia acts with respect to its neighbors.
AMANPOUR: Do you think, as some have suggested, that Vladimir Putin has decided that his battle is a civilizational battle against the West and any
of the former Soviet republics who exhibit more democratic, more western politics?
SANDU: Russian president wants all our countries to be in poverty, without democracies. He wants Moldova and the other countries in the region to be
in a gray zone so that he could use our countries in its battle with the democratic West. We want our country to be part of the free world.
AMANPOUR: It appears that you and Moscow are engaged in a diplomatic tit- for-tat. You have expelled certain Russian diplomats. I think you've halved their presence here in your country. They're expelling some Moldovans from
Russia, and saying that, you know, you're on a very dangerous path, President Sandu, you are determined to create mayhem between you and the
Kremlin. What is your answer to that and why do you think that's happening?
SANDU: Russia should respect the independence of Moldova. Russia should respect the interest of our citizens.
AMANPOUR: But why did you expel the Russian diplomats?
SANDU: When people from Russia try to overthrow a democratically elected government, this is a very clear sign that there is no respect for this
country. It's the Moldovan citizens who decide who should run the country. We have three elections and we will decide how the country is governed,
what is the geopolitical direction that the country wants to take.
When Russia interferes, when Russia is blackmailing us, when Russia does not respect the neutrality that we have in the constitution, because Russia
keeps its soldiers on our territory against the will of the Moldovan people, we will respond accordingly. Because my responsibility, the
responsibility of the parliament and of the government is to represent the interest of the Moldovan citizens.
AMANPOUR: You know, you just talked about Transnistria. I mean, maybe rest of the world doesn't quite focus on the fact that an actual portion of your
country is currently occupied by Russian troops. That must be a very significant threat to you. Do you think they threaten you?
SANDU: They have been using Transnistria against the Republic of Moldova. And now, the most important task for us, with respect to the conflict
interest we share, is to keep the situation stable. And we have managed to keep the situation in the Transnistrian region stable.
The people there, they share the same objectives. They want peace. They want to have the chance to live happily at home. They have been affecting
already from the free trade regime with the E.U. They are part of the association agreement. So, people see the benefits of the --
AMANPOUR: So, you're trying to compete for their hearts and minds?
SANDU: There is no conflict between the people on right and left bank of Dniester (ph), and this is the difference probably with the conflict zones
and different parts of the world. Here, there is a regime, which is supported by Russia. There are the Russian troops which are stationed
illegally in Transnistrian region. And, of course, this is how the Russian authorities are trying to influence things in the Republic of Moldova.
[13:25:00]
AMANPOUR: But your own prime minister said their campaign is getting less and less effective with time, the Russian campaign. Do you agree?
SANDU: Yes, I do agree. And as I mentioned, the closer people get to the E.U., and some of them work in the E.U. countries. The experts, half of the
experts from the Transnistrian region go to the E.U. countries. So, people see the benefits
AMANPOUR: Do you believe that the West is doing enough? Do you think it really gets it? I mean, do you think it's yet done enough for Ukraine? And
is it doing enough for you?
SANDU: We are grateful to all the countries and to all the international organizations which support Ukraine. We believe that Ukraine needs to get
more support. Ukraine is fighting the right cause. Ukraine is fighting for its independence but also democracy. And everybody should understand that
if Ukraine is not helped, then Russia will not stop in Ukraine or Moldova. So, this is also about the security, first of all, the security of the
continent and also about the international rules-based system.
Moldova is grateful for all the support. We are grateful that we could go through the difficult challenges. We had a bad energy crisis. We had a
refugee crisis. We have significant economic problems because of the war. And we managed to go through these difficult situations thanks to the
international support, but also thanks, to the unity of the Moldovans within the country
AMANPOUR: We've heard a lot from NATO, from the U.S., from everybody. And you've just said that Russia cannot win, because otherwise, it will
completely up end the international rules-based order. Are you a little afraid that it's dug in defenses, that it's staying power in Ukraine right
now is slowing down the process of defeating Russia?
SANDU: I believe that Ukraine is doing, again, everything possible. I do believe Ukraine needs more support. Even though I do appreciate all the
support it gets from all the countries and I do hope that more support will be coming soon so that Ukraine could recover its territories, and we will
see an end to this crazy war.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you a question that may or may not be appropriate? You're woman in a very macho part of the world. Does that weigh on you? Do
you notice people treating you -- I mean, here, the Russians, do they take you seriously? Do you feel -- I don't know. How does it affect your
presidency?
SANDU: Well, first of all, in our part of the world, there are many strong women in high level positions. And this is encouraging, because this shows
that citizens -- people are ready for change. Second, those who didn't take me seriously at the beginning, now do take me seriously because we showed
courage. We did not allow Russia to blackmail us.
Yes, it was difficult to eliminate Russia's independence on energy, on gas, but we took the difficult tasks and we will continue on this path. We want
to be independent. We want our citizens to be respected. We want our citizens to have the chance to live in a free world and in peace.
AMANPOUR: President Maia Sandu, thank you very much.
SANDU: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, everyone is trying to hold the line in this part of the world. So, let's turn now to the power of food to help maintain daily life
during deprivation of war time. Against the odds, chef and restauranteur Nika Lozovska has kept her two restaurants in the heart of the city open.
Even braving near miss missile strikes. And she's joining me now to talk about how and why. Welcome to the program, Nika.
NIKA LOZOVSKA, CHEF AND CO-OWNER, DIZYNGOFF AND DECOLE: Good evening.
AMANPOUR: So, how long have you had a -- Dizyngoff is your main restaurant, right?
LOZOVSKA: Yes.
AMANPOUR: So, how difficult was it to keep it open during the war? How difficult has it been?
LOZOVSKA: I mean, it was extremely difficult during the winter blackouts, they were quite severe in Odessa, where like sometimes we didn't have
electricity for like two days, three days and then we had it for a matter of couple of hours. We had no idea how it was going to happen in the
future.
And Dizyngoff is a restaurant, you know, medium size. So, it's not completely clear which generator to buy or not to buy, and it's really
scary when you are responsible for the people working for you. I mean, for me, as a civilian, it wasn't that scary. I mean, blackout, blackout, it's
not a big deal, even though I was, of course, scared for elderly people, for the kids and everything. But for me as restaurateur (ph), it was really
scary. I had no idea if my restaurant was going to survive, to live through the winter or not, or at some point maybe I had to tell to my workers,
maybe you need to go some -- to look for another job to be more sure about --
[13:30:00]
AMANPOUR: I'm going to get back to the restaurant part of it. But you -- you know, it was -- Odessa wasn't as heavily attacked back then as it has
been in the last few months. What was -- I mean, apparently some missile struck not too far away from you. What was it like and did you think yet
again you might have to close?
LOZOVSKA: Those attacks were really close. One of them was just, I would say, 500 meters from us. And not at all. The morning after, it was quite
reassuring for everybody, for the staff to come to the restaurant, you know, to find the -- yourself in a secure place where you -- I mean, secure
in a way that you know what to do, to do simple things you're doing daily.
AMANPOUR: Like chopping vegetable and --
LOZOVSKA: Yes. And actually, the restaurant was full the next day.
AMANPOUR: So, how do you account for that? Because you see the beaches. I mean, you know, obviously, there are a lot of people who are not there, but
there are a lot of people who have in back to the beaches. How do you account for -- I don't know. As we heard, you know, Nik say at the
beginning of our show, maybe people are settling into thinking this is going to continue for a long time and you better carry on.
LOZOVSKA: Absolutely. It's the only way to keep your mental health going, like just we're always prepared that it can happen next to you, to your
neighbor, to your own house, to your own business.
AMANPOUR: So, tell me --
LOZOVSKA: And we chose to be here.
AMANPOUR: You chose to be here. You could have left. You could have left, but you chose to be here?
LOZOVSKA: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Yes. So, tell me about food. How have you recognized it as an anchor, you know, for normal life, for dignity, for more than just eating?
LOZOVSKA: Excuse me. I'm not sure if I --
AMANPOUR: Tell me about food in war time.
LOZOVSKA: In war time?
AMANPOUR: Yes. What is the advantage of coming to a great restaurant with great food?
LOZOVSKA: My way to speak about it is that, for us, restaurants are places where you can find the atmosphere the way it was before war and the way
it's going to be after the victory. But -- and the moment, yes, it's the place where you can find like normal life, more pleasures of everything and
--
AMANPOUR: And have you -- has anything sort of happened that means you can't find certain ingredients? I understand that there were certain fish
that you couldn't get after the dam was -- you know, was breached. And, you know, we've got a blockade here. I know there's fish in the sea. But it's
really difficult with the minds and blockade of this Black Sea. How has that affected?
LOZOVSKA: So, since the beginning of the war, we had only access to river fishes and some small fishermen that would go and fish from the shore. And
so, we had -- as far as we're small, we could the get like little contacts and we receive small quantities of local fish. And since the dam, the --
AMANPOUR: The Kakhovka Dam.
LOZOVSKA: Yes. We have zero fish at all. Even fishing in the lakes is forbidden. And --
AMANPOUR: Why is that?
LOZOVSKA: Because somehow, they are all connected in the region. They are very closed and it might be might be of danger. But it's coming back a
little bit, but very small amounts. And they're much more expensive, much less accessible. People also are afraid to bite, to like to eat it and to
order it. So, we won't buy it because our guests are like very not sure if it's all right.
AMANPOUR: So, what do you do instead?
LOZOVSKA: Actually, we -- my restaurant specialized on like local ingredients. We only use what we find in Ukraine. But since the dam we're
like actually serving some shrimps and salmon because we need to substitute.
AMANPOUR: Let's talk about Dizyngoff. That is the name, if I'm not mistaken, of the first mayor of Tel Aviv in Israel. OK. So, how did your
restaurant come to be called that? And there's a famous Dizyngoff street.
LOZOVSKA: Yes. Dizyngoff lived for a while in Odessa.
AMANPOUR: OK.
LOZOVSKA: In my restaurant we have envelope signed by him being sent to Alzas (ph) from Odessa. So, there is a whole part of his life that was
spent here. And we decided it was about a connection between you know, like reputation of both cities being multi-cultural, multi-language, multi-
cuisine, multi-culture, everything about that and being extremely hospitable.
You know, they say it's a Jewish connection maybe, you know, that we're like extremely, extremely hospitable and whenever guests come over like you
need to feed them, like you need to be really --
AMANPOUR: I mean, it's a cultural thing.
LOZOVSKA: Cultural thing.
AMANPOUR: Yes, for sure.
LOZOVSKA: Yes.
[13:35:00]
AMANPOUR: And do you see the fabric of the city still remaining strong or have a lot of communities left? Is the Jewish community still strong in
this city, for instance, since the war?
LOZOVSKA: I'm sure. I'm sure. And will always be. We can feel it from the city, it doesn't change. Like traffic jams are quite the same. Everything
is still going on. Most things you find them that you found before the war you find them now, they have transformed but --
AMANPOUR: So, I mean, I have to -- because I just -- you make associations. In Israel, the citizens are the secular democrats, which make up most of
the citizenry there, are fighting very hard to keep their own democracy. And here, you guys seemed to be fighting really hard not to submit to
authoritarian rule, to -- you call it fascism. Do you see a sort of a similarity, historical, culturally?
LOZOVSKA: I'm not sure about that. I would probably need a bit more time to analyze about that question. But unfortunately, it looks like we'll
probably have to learn how to live -- to take a look at Israelis how they're doing.
AMANPOUR: And do you think -- are you confident that Ukraine will win?
LOZOVSKA: Absolutely. No doubt about that.
AMANPOUR: OK.
LOZOVSKA: So many like strong-minded people are on our side -- inside Ukraine, outside Ukraine. There is just no chance.
AMANPOUR: And is your family still here, all your family?
LOZOVSKA: Half of my family is now in New York since the war began.
AMANPOUR: Yes. Well, you know, many, many people, including the president of Moldova, obviously the president of Ukraine, many, many people thank the
West for all it's doing and it's been doing an enormous amount. Without that help, perhaps we wouldn't still be standing, but it's not enough. And
we even heard from wounded soldiers today in one of the rehab centers that they just need a lot more. I'm not asking you a military question. But how
do you assess the help that's being given to Ukraine and what would you like to see?
LOZOVSKA: I feel more reassured to think -- I'm not -- I don't think I have enough information to evaluate. But I'm more calmer to think we're getting
as much as possible to be given. Of course, we would like it to be in a different speed. Of course, we need more, and this is one of the reasons we
continue doing what we are doing, like, for example, me as a small like restauranteur in Odessa, we -- like we need to keep our economy working
like that we would -- they like people from --
AMANPOUR: Exactly.
LOZOVSKA: -- abroad will see our fight and will join us.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
LOZOVSKA: And --
AMANPOUR: Nika Lozovska, thank you so much indeed.
Now, 60 years ago, hundreds of thousands of people descended on Washington, D.C., demanding racial justice. Martin Luther King Jr. addressed the crowd
and said those now iconic words, I have a dream. Thousands gathered at the Lincoln Memorial on Saturday to commemorate the march but to also continue
the fight for equality. New York Times bestselling author Michael Eric Dyson joins Walter Isaacson to discuss the historic event and its legacy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WALTER ISAACSON, CNN HOST: Thank you, Christiane. And, Michael Eric Dyson, welcome back to the show.
DYSON: Thank you, my friend. Always great to be here.
ISAACSON: Now, we're celebrating or commemorating the 60th anniversary now of the march on Washington. Its full name was The March on Washington for
Jobs and freedom. Tell me about the original mission.
DYSON: Well, the original mission, of course, as you just articulated, was to focus energy and national attention on the African-American quest for
equal employment and for racial justice and public institutions, and eventually, of course, to procure the vote.
The great A. Philip Randolph in the 1940s that met with President Roosevelt and with his compatriot, Mary McLeod Bethune, to try to force the president
to take action. Infamously, perhaps an apocryphal moment, but it is alleged to have occurred that the president looking at Mr. Randolph and looking Ms.
McLeod Bethune said, look, I believe in everything you're telling me, now, go out there and make me do it.
In other words, create the particular contagion in the public sphere for the notion of black justice, for the notion of black employment, for
desegregating the armed services and et cetera, and then I can act. So, some 25 odd years later, Martin Luther King Jr., A. Philip Randolph, James
Farmer, John Lewis were part of the big six -- and Roy Wilkins and Whitney Young from the Urban League.
[13:40:00]
So, it was an incredible convocation of leading black figures to try to put before the nation an argument in behalf of black freedom and quality.
ISAACSON: You talk about the six coming together and, of course, it's led initially by, as you mentioned, by A. Philip Randolph. Tell us a little bit
about him, because he was a great union leader and sort of unsung these days.
DYSON: I mean, first of all, let's start with that stentorian voice, that orator, when he introduces us to Martin Luther King, Jr., I mean, just the
authority, he could play the voice of God. He was James Earl Jones before James Earl Jones was James Earl Jones.
So -- but a great leader, a socialist along with Chandler Owens in the early 1900s, promulgating systemic reform for African-American culture in
terms of economic justice, a great union leader. The Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters was his significant outlet where he organized
thousands upon thousands of black men, many of whom had college degrees, but who found better work in terms of a sleeping car porter than they could
even teaching in terms of wage.
So, he was great union organizer. He was a great social activist. He was a great writer. He influenced so many figures, not only Martin Luther King
Jr., but the great Bayard Rustin as well who eventually came to work with Martin Luther King Jr. along with Ella Baker. So, he was an extraordinarily
important leader who should not be forgotten, because Martin Luther King Jr. himself said, the reason we're having this march in 1963 is to fulfill
the great man's desire in the 1840s.
ISAACSON: Another unsung hero, people who don't remember much anymore, Dorothy Height.
DYSON: Right.
ISAACSON: The woman involved. Tell me about her and why has she been somewhat forgotten.
DYSON: Well, the first reason she's been forgotten is the horrible patriarchy that continues to (INAUDIBLE) even social justice movements. You
know, that old saying that Susan Taylor came up with, hurt people hurt people. Well, oppressed people oppress people. And the irony is, on that
great day, the only women who made it to the stage, one of them, at least, was Josephine Baker an ex-pat from Paris who came on stage with some
children and great Mahalia Jackson, the great singer.
So, the point is that Dorothy Height was forbidden from participating publicly in the organization of the march and being featured as a speaker
on that great day. But what great leader. The National Council of Negro Women, we lift as we climb, started by the great Mary McLeod Bethune, taken
over by, of course, eventually the great Dorothy Height, lived to be in her late 90s. Dorothy Height was an extraordinary woman who was a leader, an
activist, a spokeswoman for the best interest, not only African-American women but of the general push for justice among African-American people.
ISAACSON: And I guess a third person really involved in getting this march on Washington going was bear Bayard Rustin.
DYSON: Right.
ISAACSON: And he, like A. Philip Randolph, a socialist. So, it's a march about the economy, not just about civil rights.
DYSON: Right. They saw early on that economic inequality was the predicate for so much of the oppression that African-American people faced. And when
Martin Luther King Jr. justly so got credit in his later years for pivoting from civil rights to economic inequality, Bayard Rustin had been on that
theme from the beginning. He was a black gay man, as open as you could be back in those days. This great man was responsible for organizing the march
on Washington. A great social justice leader, a man who was a pacifist out of a quaker tradition and a man who understood the complicated and nuanced
perspective of practical politics.
ISAACSON: The nonviolent part of that much, the fact that it was nonviolent was what made it so persuasive.
DYSON: Right.
ISAACSON: Were there -- what were the debates though beforehand about how much it such emphasize nonviolent means?
DYSON: Yes. See, this is what happens when you speak to a great historic Ukrainian like Walter Isaacson. Most people don't know that there were
tremendous debates behind the scene. First of all, John Lewis, yes, that August politician, that dean of black American politicians after John
Conyard (ph), the conscience of Congress. Well, he was writing a speech at 23 years old when -- like Sherman marched to the south, we're going to tear
through --oh, John, you're going to have to calm that down.
[13:45:00]
And the great Eleanor Holmes Norton was assigned to task of helping him rewrite it so he could articulate his revolutionary ideals and his militant
conscience but in a way that would be palatable ultimately to the audience watching.
You know, I think one of the great figures in American religious life, some archbishop said, look, I'm not going to participate if John Lewis' speech
goes on. So, they're arguing behind the scenes. There were snipers placed atop the buildings in Washington, D.C. by the federal government just in
case things got out of hand and the negro folk gathered there would be somehow belligerent. None of that was to be concerned about, Martin Luther
King Jr. and the other leaders of the civil rights movement were deeply invested in making sure that nonviolence was both a tactic of social change
but also a philosophical approach to life.
The only violence we have usually had to worry about are white supremacists and redemptionists who refused to acknowledge the fundamental humanity of
black people.
ISAACSON: If you look at the program for that march, they have a section in the problem called A Tribute to Negro Women.
DYSON: Right.
ISAACSON: And they sort of would give a shout-out to Rosa Parks, but none of them were allowed to speak. What do they feel about that?
DYSON: I mean, then the women were chomping at the bit, chaffing, of course, by the cruel denial of opportunity in a march for justice, that we
are being unjust to black women, that they must seek their level, that they must stay in their place. And many of those women were women were irate,
even Coretta Scott King who gave King a sense of what women were able to do when she fought with him about her role as a civil and social activist.
Because Coretta Scott King was far ahead of Martin Luther King Jr. when it came to international issues of social justice and the war in Vietnam and
peaceful protests against that. So, Martin Luther King Jr. himself owed a debt to his own wife. But yet these women were denied opportunities. They
were bitter in some instances about them. They were rightfully outraged at the limit, but they were such good citizens that they were interested in
the broader appeal to issues of justice for African-American people. But make no mistake, those kinds of experiences were the seabed for the
development of the feminist movement that came right upon on the heels of the civil rights struggle in the 1960s
ISAACSON: The I have a dream ref was something in Jonathan Eig's book. We learn more about it was said before the march on Washington, King delivers
it in Detroit.
DYSON: Right.
ISAACSON: Your beloved Detroit. I think also in Birmingham, Alabama I read.
DYSON: Right.
ISAACSON: He did a version of that speech. Was he really planning to also do it in Washington and is that the key part of the speech for you?
DYSON: So, the point is that he tried it out before. Guess where he heard it? The great Prathia Hall was in a church in Albany, Georgia, praying one
night, saying, and I have a dream. And King, like any great Baptist preacher with a great ear said, now, I'm going to use that one day. I don't
know where.
So, the point is, King hears Prathia Hall using it and then, that black woman's word, as she went on, she was an activist in SNCC, but she went on
to become one of the greatest preachers in America and a pastor in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. But King hears that from her, snatches that
phrase from her. Samples that word from her. All right. Maybe rips it off from her. And then begins to use it. Yes, he used it in Detroit, Michigan.
He used it in other places. But he wasn't quite sure.
If you look at the written speech, that's not something necessarily that King was going to deploy that day. But as you said before, it is true,
Martin Luther King Jr. begins that speech reading in a way that his best oratory is David Halberstam says this, is never when he reads. Five score
years ago, the great American and who symbolic shadow we stand today signed the emancipation proclamation. Now, it's beautiful, the euphony of his
voice, the rising tide of his oratory, but that's not King at his best.
So, yes, he feels at some point that I got to put in this paper down and I got to free style. I'm John Coltrane. I'm listening to the style of Miles
Davis and I'm with my -- but I got to -- I had to give my own inflection here. So, I think at that point there's no question that King goes off and
delivers one of the greatest speeches in American oratorical history because he had practiced it in his soul and in his mind, not quite in that
same way.
[13:50:00]
When you listen to Detroit, it's not the same word. They are not the same words. So, there's something about the improvisational character of King
but improvisation is built upon thinking ahead about what you might do.
ISAACSON: You say that the speech begins so famously in the shadow of the Lincoln Memorial of him saying, five score years ago. Just echoing the
Gettysburg address.
DYSON: Yes. Right.
ISAACSON: That it was symbolic. But the next sentence he says seems to be the core of the speech in which he says, but 100 years later, the negro is
still not free.
DYSON: Yes. It was powerful. 100 years later, the negro still is not free. Immediately, the manacles have been removed, he's talking about the
shackles. He said, look, we are marooned on a tiny island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. And he says that revolt will
continue in America until the foundations, right, the foundations of revoke will continue to shake the foundations of America until America is free.
That's revolutionary.
He begins to talk about police brutality. He talks about the marvelous militancy that is in America. So, that speech, even though he was being
calm, was quite revolutionary for its time. And yes, he articulated for America the demands of black people. And then he said this, he said, we've
got to check, but the check came back, returned to us marked insufficient funds. And he says, we have come to the nation's capital to cash a check.
Reparation. We refuse to believe that the great vaults of democracy are empty. That is powerful rhetoric that has application today as we talk
about affirmative action and reparations in our own time.
ISAACSON: But 60 years later, wealth and equality in America is still as great. The difference in wealth and equality of black and white. What does
that say to you?
DYSON: It talks about the stunning ability of America to absorb protest and to rearticulate it as the basis of American practice while denying it. In
other words, the hypocrisy of America has always been great. Oh, yes, we're sorry for what happened. It's horrible. It's terrible. Every now and again
we have episodes of reckoning. But more likely, we have the governor, Ron DeSantis's of the world who wants to whitewash history.
Ron DeSantis isn't the first person. Right after the civil war, when Lincoln was dead and Johnson was in office, and the south was supposed to
pay, all of them get pardons. And they were pardoned not for the sin of slavery, they were pardoned for taking action against the union. And all of
the great enslavers were forgiven without reckoning with their great sin.
So, the best route to reconstructing America for those white folks was to erase memory of racial fracture in history. And unfortunately, that has
continued to this day. We've denied the systemic basis of inequality. The banks are still messed up when it comes to giving black people loans. The
housing crisis underscores the degree to which there are still rampant segregation there. When we look at education, two-tiered, three-tiered
system that assigns people relatively inferior statuses.
So, when you look across the board, African-American people continue to struggle as a result of systemic inequities that are deeply entrenched in
American political life.
ISAACSON: And we seem to be seeing a backlash, especially against things that you just said, people being able to say it was systemic or the
systemic racism. Backlash that comes a few years after the Black Lives Matters marches. Why are we going through this backlash? And is it
something that is like a pendulum, it will swing back?
DYSON: It will. It takes a lot of hope to believe that, because the (INAUDIBLE) is so bitter. The contestation of those who are the merchants
of amnesia is so powerful. As the late great Gore Vidal said, we live in the United States of amnesia. And that's where we are. We're citizens of
the kingdom of amnesia. I'm trying to get us to become citizens and as you are so brilliantly trying to get us to become citizens of the kingdom of
memory.
I think Barbra Streisand supplies the theme song to the amnesiac. What's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget. And so, we're
forgetting it. This is why a governor in Florida wants to band books. Books about the history that would tell the truth about how America got where it
is. And especially, he said, the problem is linking the past to the present. Oh, you can talk about slavery as a skillset developer for black
people, but you can't talk about the fact that it had an impact upon contemporary social struggle.
[13:55:00]
So, this is a predictable response. But the great prophetic mystic Howard Thurman said, never reduce your dreams to your present event. He said,
you're going to either be a prisoner of an event or you're going to be a prisoner of hope. He said, I choose to be a prisoner of hope, and I echo
the great Howard Thurmon
ISAACSON: Michael Eric Dyson, thank you so much for joining us.
DYSON: Thanks for having me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Such a powerful invocation against historical amnesia. And finally, tonight, celebrating Caribbean culture in the United Kingdom.
Thousands of performers and floats paraded through the streets of West London for the iconic Notting Hill Carnival. It's the second largest street
party after Rio.
This year, the festivities are celebrating two anniversaries. 50 years ago, organizers introduced sound systems and the mass bands transforming it into
the large-scale event that's seen today. And the carnival this year pays tribute to the hundreds of Caribbean migrants who were brought over to
Britain on the ship, Empire Windrush, 75 years ago to help rebuild after World War II. And yet, never received their proper due. This festival is
for all ages and all cultures to come together and celebrate.
That's it for now. Thank you for watching and goodbye from Odessa in Ukraine.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
