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Amanpour
Interview with Representative Brendan Boyle (D-PA); Interview with U.S. National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan; Interview with Norwegian Refugee Council Sudan Country Director Will Carter Interview with Refugee Olympic Team Former Swimmer and Two-Time Olympian Yusra Mardini. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired August 07, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Hello everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. TIM WALZ (D-MN), DEMOCRATIC VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Thank you, Madam Vice President, for the trust you put in me, but maybe more so, thank
you for bringing back the joy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: A jubilant debut for coach Tim Walz as Kamala Harris' VP. But what are his policies, and what comes next? I ask Congressman Brendan
Boyle.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Jake Sullivan, U.S. National Security Adviser What we are trying to do is the United States is to keep the situation spinning out into an all-out
regional war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan joins Walter Isaacson. What is Biden hope to achieve in his final months in office?
Also, ahead, we get the latest from the Middle East as fears of a wider war continue to grow.
And the humanitarian catastrophe in Sudan goes from bad to worse. We have the latest with Will Carter of the Norwegian Refugee Council.
And finally, hope and heroism at the Paris Olympics. As the Refugee Team bagged their first medal, I'm joined by Syrian swimmer and now veteran
Olympian, Yusra Mardini.
Hello and welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Well, one day in and it's been a rapturous reception for VP candidate and Minnesota Governor Tim Walz or Coach Walz as running mate Kamala Harris is
now referring to him. Today, they're stomping out in Michigan after an enthusiastic -- in Wisconsin after an enthusiastic debut in Philadelphia.
Kamala Harris using the packed house to rafters rally really to introduce Tim Walz to a nation that doesn't really know him that well. And speaking
to the crowd, Walz tried to hammer home his Minnesota values. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. TIM WALZ (D-MN), DEMOCRATIC VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Minnesota strengths comes from our values, our commitment to working together. To
seeing past our differences, to always being willing to lend a helping hand. Those are the same values I learned on the family farm and tried to
instill in my students. I took it to Congress and to the state capitol. And now, Vice President Harris and I are running for president to take those
very values to the White House.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: But how will this talk translate into policy and what else will we see from Walz on the campaign trail? Joining me now with someone who
knows the Minnesota governor well. Brendan Boyle is a longtime friend of Walz. He's also a congressman from the crucial swing State of Pennsylvania.
Welcome to the program from Philadelphia, Brendan Boyle. We appreciate the time.
So, let's just get -- started by taking a minute to discuss what we saw last night, and that was really the branding of Governor Walz, somebody
most Americans didn't know much of until last night, and we got a sense of his background. Grew up on a farm, as he said, went to school with most of
his relatives. The town was so small. He was a high school teacher. He was a football coach. He served in the National Guard.
And then, I'd like to have you listen to what Kamala Harris said about this and how she views the man she's now appointed to be her VP pick.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT AND U.S. PRESIDENTIAL DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE: To his fellow veterans, he is Sergeant Major Walz. To his
former high school students, he was Mr. Walz. And to his former high school football players, he was coach.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Who is he to you?
REP. BRENDAN BOYLE (D-PA): Well, it's great to be with you, Bianna. And while he was my congressional colleague, I actually did call him coach
because one of the many things on his resume that actually has not been mentioned the last 24 hours is he was the coach of our congressional
football team. So, I always called him, with great affection, coach.
Yes, Tim is exactly what you saw last night here in my hometown and District of Philadelphia. An authentic and genuine person, a guy who comes
from humble, rural, blue collar roots, actually still lives in exactly the same kind of community. He's a long-time veteran, the highest-ranking
enlisted man to ever serve in Congress.
[13:05:00]
And then, of course, he was a public-school teacher for decades. And literally, that's what he was doing in 2006 when he was asked to run for
Congress and he pulled off this remarkable upset in a Republican-leaning district. In fact, I do remember talking to him right after the election in
2016, we got back to D.C. about a week later, and he was talking about how he had just survived in his district. Donald Trump won his district by 15
points and yet, Tim Walz was still able to hold on. I think it was actually the largest over performance of any member of Congress that cycle. And
that's because people know who Tim is and know his values
GOLODRYGA: And maybe it's perhaps they know who he is that he was -- managed to squeak a win in in 2016, because he's even acknowledged that was
a very close call. And as he was trying to decipher who this Trump voter is and what Trump's appeal is there is concern that some of his policies,
especially as governor, are more progressive than some of those undecided voters, some of those never Trump voters that Kamala Harris is desperately
trying to get to vote for her, that they're just not comfortable with that.
And let me just pull up some of his policies so our viewers can get a sense of what he's been focused on as governor. The issue of abortion. He signed
into law the Protect Reproductive Options Act in January of 2023 in terms of gender affirming care. He signed an executive order that protected
health care services, universal school meals. He signed a bill into law last year on that front. For tuition, he made college tuition free for
students from families earning less than $80,000.
On the issue of immigration, which, as you know, is a crucial issue, one that Republicans are making their top issue this election cycle, he made
undocumented immigrants eligible for Minnesota's driver's licenses. And in terms of voting rights, he restored voting rights to more than 55,000
formerly incarcerated people.
As you know, Republicans are already latching onto this record. Do you think that this is a potential weakness for the ticket?
BOYLE: You know, I have no concerns at all. And in fact, I believe everything that you read on that list he did before he won re-election. So,
obviously his voters in Minnesota, which has sometimes been referred to as the reddest blue state in America, it is a state where Republicans compete
and do well statewide. In fact, before Tim, there was a Republican governor, Tim Pawlenty, who was able to run for president. And yet, with
that record, Tim Walz won re-election.
You mentioned on one of those issues, abortion. I think, frankly, one of the most significant issues of this campaign is going to be the abortion
issue. Specifically, the fact that Donald Trump, as he brags himself, he is responsible for overturning Roe versus Wade. He is responsible for the fact
that a woman's right to choose is now denied in close to half of the states in the United States of America. And if he gets in through something called
the Comstock Act, he will be able to effectively end abortion or end the right to choose for a woman in the United States, whether you're in a red
state or a blue state.
So, I expect that actually that record will contrast quite nicely to what Donald Trump first did in office and what he's proposing to do if he were
to get back there.
GOLODRYGA: Speaking of Donald Trump, he and other Republicans, we should note even prior to Kamala Harris making her VP pick really voiced their
concern publicly about specifically the governor of your state, of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro, being on that ticket and appeared to sigh a
breath of relief on the news of Tim Walz being her choice. Here's what Donald Trump said this morning.
Oh, I'm sorry. We don't have the sound. But he said that he's a very liberal man and that he's a shocking pick and that he couldn't be more
thrilled. What do you make of that response?
BOYLE: Well, don't worry, I'm not too disappointed that you didn't have that audio of Donald Trump. I've already heard enough of him. I would say
it brings me back to eight years ago. I remember how relieved Democrats were that Donald Trump had won the Republican primary, and I had a lot of
Democratic friends telling me just how easy that general election was going to be. And I said to them then, and I'm on the record actually eight years
ago saying this, and I'll repeat it, be careful what you wish for.
[13:10:00]
It is funny in politics how sometimes the person who you thought you wanted to run against, or you thought was the ideal opponent ends up being the
person who ultimately wins the race. We need, and I say this as Pennsylvania's biggest cheerleader, whether it's in politics or sports, we
are the largest and I think most important battleground state, but we're not the only battleground state. We need to also win in Michigan. We need
to also win in Wisconsin. We need to win or at least be very competitive in the Sunbelt as well.
So, I think that the vice president decided to have a partner that she was most comfortable with, who could actually help her once in office, be a
great team player, but also be someone who could authentically speak to the voters who, over the last eight years, we've been losing, not just in
places like Pennsylvania, but also in Michigan, Wisconsin and throughout the Midwest.
GOLODRYGA: Given how crucial winning Pennsylvania in particular is, are you surprised that she didn't go with your governor who is, as we noted,
extremely popular there?
BOYLE: You know, I served alongside Josh in the statehouse, actually from neighboring state legislative districts. He's a longtime friend. As we've
discussed Tim Walz or coach is also a longtime friend, as are one or two others who are under consideration. So, I really -- my view going into this
was that it was entirely the presidential nominee's decision. That's the way it's always been the way it should be, because it's such a crucial
personal decision.
So, frankly, I mean, you know, the only thing that would've surprised me is if she had picked someone who wasn't on that very public list of the six
finalists.
GOLODRYGA: Yes.
BOYLE: I really thought any one of them could have been picked. And frankly, each of them brought different strengths and weaknesses to help
balance out the ticket.
GOLODRYGA: Just to go back to the concerns about Tim Walz's record and how he's being portrayed now and described by Republicans, specifically by the
Trump-Vance ticket, there's one line in particular that people are really focusing on, and that is when he said, one person's socialism is another
person's neighborliness.
And I'm wondering if you agree with Jonathan Chait's analysis, a journalist, of how now she should navigate this ticket. And he said, the
best hope is picking Walz lets her placate left with that choice while actually moving to the center on policy and anything else important.
BOYLE: You know, sincerely, I don't think this pick was actually anything about ideology, left, right or center. It really boiled down to who was the
person who she was most comfortable with as a partner, both on the campaign as well as crucially when it comes to governing.
The end of the day, for better or worse, this is not going to be ultimately for 99.9 percent of voters. This is not going to be about J.D. Vance or
about Tim Walz, it'll be about Kamala Harris and her agenda and what she is offering for the American people for the next four years versus the very
backward, ugly, divisive vision that Donald Trump is offering to the extent that he actually has a vision at all.
GOLODRYGA: And she has 90 days to showcase to the country that vision. Brendan Boyle, thank you so much for joining us.
BOYLE: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Well, turning to the Middle East, Israel is holding its breath as it braces for retaliation from Iran and its proxies in response to the
killing of Hezbollah's top military chief. The where and the how of the strike are unclear, but U.S. intelligence reports preparations are already
underway.
The Iranian president has said that if the west wants to prevent a war, it should force Israel to accept a ceasefire. Whether a hostage deal and
avoiding a regional war are possible will also depend on hardliner Yahya Sinwar, chosen to replace the recently assassinated Ismail Haniyeh as the
political head of Hamas.
Let's turn to Jeremy Diamond, who joins us now from Northern Israel. Jeremy, let me first just get you to respond. What are you hearing from
Israelis following this announcement that Yahya Sinwar will be replacing Haniyeh as the political chief of Hamas? What does that even mean?
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, listen -- yes. I mean, I think what it -- first of all, what it means is it signals the direction
that Hamas is going into, you know, for -- and it also effectively obliterates any distinction that has existed between Hamas as a political
movement and Hamas as a militant group, considered a terrorist organization, of course, by the United States and Israel and many other
countries.
Yahya Sinwar was considered kind of a key bridge between the militant faction and the political faction of Hamas. And -- but ultimately, at the
end of the day, he was and remains Hamas' top commander on the ground in Gaza. And so, by elevating him, not only is it obliterating that
distinction, but it is also elevating a man considered to be one of the masterminds behind the October 7th terrorist attacks.
[13:15:00]
And also a man who was considered to be more extreme, more of a hardliner within Hamas, whereas Ismail Haniyeh, the political leader who was
assassinated last week, he was considered to be somewhat more pragmatic within Hamas, somewhat more willing to get to a deal at the negotiating
table.
And so, for Israelis, it is clearly sending a signal that Hamas is in no way repentant, of course, about the October 7th attacks, that it intends to
move forward with somebody who was responsible for those attacks, and the Israeli military and Israeli leaders are vowing that this doesn't change
anything for them in terms of Yahya Sinwar being public enemy number one for Israel and at the very top of its of its kill list effectively.
GOLODRYGA: And here we are entering another night there in Israel. There you are in Haifa, in the northern part of the country, as Israel continues
to anticipate a retaliatory response from Iran or Hezbollah or both. There are other proxies as well, including the Houthis. The United States have
tried to put up a public front in terms of a deterrence there in the region. But what is anticipated now? Because it does still appear that some
sort of response is inevitable.
DIAMOND: It certainly seems that way. But just consider the fact that we are now more than a week removed from the assassination of Haniyeh, more
than a week removed from Iran's initial threats of carrying out some kind of retaliatory strike. And the fact that it has not happened yet could
indicate a few different things.
It could, first of all, indicate that Iran is having trouble getting all of its proxies in line to carry out some kind of a coordinated attack, that it
is perhaps preparing for the possibility of a larger, more significant regional war, or it could also suggest that the diplomatic maneuvering that
has been happening over the course of the last week maybe making some headway or that at least it is making Iran reconsider, recalculate, rethink
the extent to which it wants to carry out a retaliatory strike or even just simply how significant of a strike it actually will carry out.
And today, we got a couple of indications in both directions, the first of which being that the Iranian president spoke with the French president,
Emmanuel Macron, and told him today that if America and the west really want to prevent a regional war, that they should get Israel to stop its war
in Gaza and accept a ceasefire. That suggests that a potential, I say, off ramp here for Iran to somehow claim itself as responsible for engineering a
ceasefire in Gaza and perhaps then backing off of its vows to retaliate against Israel. But that's far from being a sure thing. That's purely
speculative at this point.
What we've also seen, though, is that Egypt has now instructed its airlines to avoid overflying the Iranian capital for several hours tomorrow morning.
That's fairly unusual. We don't know exactly what is behind that. But again, it suggests that there is still a lot of tension in the air, a lot
of uncertainty, and a few different paths that this region could take going forward.
GOLODRYGA: And it's clear, Israel isn't letting its guard down either. Also prepared for any sort of response in the hours and days to come.
Jeremy Diamond, thank you so much for bringing us up to date.
Well, now, in the face of a looming Iranian attack against Israel, the Biden administration is scrambling to avert an escalation of violence,
carrying out a diplomatic press on its allies in the Middle East and convening top White House advisers. Among them, National Security Adviser
Jake Sullivan, who just days ago helped secure the release of three Americans held in Russia. He joins Walter Isaacson to reflect on the long
road that led to the historic prisoner swap, his concerns for the future of a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas and what the administration hopes
to accomplish during its final months in office.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER ISAACSON, CO-HOST, AMANPOUR AND CO.: Thank you, Bianna. And Jake Sullivan, welcome to the show.
JAKE SULLIVAN, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Thanks for having me.
ISAACSON: About in early May, President Biden put out a ceasefire plan for Gaza and the Middle East, and we thought we were there. We thought within a
day or two of it, then Israel assassinated the top political leader of Hamas when he was visiting Tehran. And just yesterday, Hamas put in the
mastermind of the October 7th attack as its new top political leader. Where do we stand on the ceasefires? It's still possible to get one in the next
few days or weeks?
SULLIVAN: Well, it's still possible. The elements are there. The framework is there. It's been proposed by President Biden, endorsed by the U.N.
Security Council. Accepted in broad terms by both Israel and Hamas. And so, they really need to drive through the details to get to a conclusion.
[13:20:00]
Now, George Mitchell, the special envoy who negotiated peace in Northern Ireland once said about these kinds of negotiations that there are 1,000
days of failure and one day of success. And that's especially true in the Middle East, where you see intervening events like what's unfolded over the
course of the past couple of weeks.
But the president's determined to get this done. And he's determined to hold both sides feet to the fire to get to a conclusion where we have a
ceasefire and a hostage deal paving the way for the end of the war in Gaza. That's what we're driving at. Just yesterday he spoke with both the
president of Egypt and the emir of Qatar, the other two mediators on this ceasefire proposal, to try to set up an endgame where we can actually
deliver this.
ISAACSON: But you had national security meetings over the weekend in which you're trying to prepare for the possibility that Iran's proxies will do a
retaliatory attack. What are we doing to stop that and can this thing be tamped down?
SULLIVAN: Well, as you know, the president has been huddling with his top national security team on a daily basis, including meetings in the
situation room. And what we are trying to do as the United States is to keep the situation from spinning out into an all-out regional war.
And that means, first, moving military assets on a defensive basis into the region to be able to help defend Israel against any attack that comes from
Iran or its proxies. Second, sending a clear message that any type of escalation on the part of Iran and its proxies risks a counter escalation
and a slide into war. And third, trying to push for de-escalation, trying to push to lower the temperature in the region, particularly by getting
this ceasefire in place, which if we got the ceasefire in Gaza could lead to a ceasefire in Lebanon and ultimately, could lead to a larger diplomatic
effort to produce greater stability across the region.
ISAACSON: I just heard you say that we're moving the military assets there to defend Israel in case there's an attack from Iran. Explain what that
means. To what extent, if there's an attack from Iran on Israel, does the United States directly defend Israel and get involved in the war?
SULLIVAN: Well, historically, we really haven't done that because that hasn't been necessary. President Biden, however, has taken unprecedented
steps to put the U.S. military in a position to be able to directly defend Israel. We did this in April. When Iran launched more than 100 ballistic
missiles and hundreds of drones and cruise missiles at Israel all in one day, the U.S. had ships that are mounted with interceptors, with the
ability to shoot down ballistic missiles coming towards Israel. The U.S. had planes in the air shooting down drones and cruise missiles.
And we worked with other countries, both countries in the region and countries in Europe in a small coalition that in an unprecedented way
defended Israel. We are in position and prepared to do that again, should there be an attack on Israel. And we're sending a clear message to Israel's
enemies that we're determined to defeat their attack.
ISAACSON: Do you think that Israel had the right or justification to kill a political leader of Hamas in Iran?
SULLIVAN: Well, I can't speak to any specific operation. Israel has not spoken to any operation in Iran either. What I can say in general is that
Israel was attacked on October 7th by Hamas in the worst massacre of the Jewish people since the Holocaust. And I do believe Israel has a right to
go after the authors of that massacre and to do so in a way that tries to protect and secure the people of Israel against future attacks.
Because, as you know, Walter, the leaders of Hamas have continued to say they want to do October 7th again and again. Now, our goal, though, is not
for an endless cycle of violence in the region, it's not for escalation, it is for what President Biden has laid out, and it's continuing to work every
day toward, which is get a ceasefire in place, get the hostages home, get an end to the war, rebuild Gaza, and ultimately, try to generate a
political horizon for the Palestinian people.
ISAACSON: Has the relationship between President Biden and Prime Minister Netanyahu changed since October 7th? And how is that evolution going? How -
- I mean, has Biden had to be much tougher on him and, you know, can they keep that relationship together?
SULLIVAN: Look, President Biden and Prime Minister Netanyahu have known each other for decades, through ups and downs, through crises,
difficulties, disagreements. President Biden, as you know, has a deep conviction about the importance of supporting the State of Israel. He calls
himself an Irish Catholic Zionist and believes that Israel is the home of the Jewish people, is something that must be protected. And he'll work with
anyone who is sitting in the prime minister's chair. He's worked with every prime minister all the way back to Golda Meir.
[13:25:00]
And so, he has engaged with Prime Minister Netanyahu since October 7th. He has supported him in Israel's darkest hour, and he has challenged him on
certain issues, behind closed doors, where Israel in the United States do not see eye to eye. That's been true in the last 10 months, it's been true
for the last several decades.
So, no, I don't see a fundamental change in the relationship. I rather see the fact of this longstanding relationship, you know, play in the President
Biden's ability to be totally straight with prime minister Netanyahu when he needs to be. And, you know, I get to bear witness to that in the Oval
Office, when they're together, either in Israel or the United States.
ISAACSON: But given the suffering in Gaza and now the potential food insecurity, perhaps starvation there, just in terms of humanitarian
feelings, why isn't the United States able to do more to get Israel aboard and do more on its own just to flood the zone with humanitarian relief,
even as this war is being prosecuted?
SULLIVAN: Well, Walter, I've said before that over the course of this war, the Palestinian people have been going through hell. You know, suffering
under bombardment, suffering under deprivation of various kinds that come with being in war, and the suffering is immense, and it is extremely
painful. And we have been working overtime to get more humanitarian assistance. To flood the zone, exactly as you say.
And actually, President Biden has made huge strides in this regard. After October 7th, no gates were open to move trucks through to get food in.
President Biden has gotten the Israelis to open multiple crossings. He's gotten the Israelis to accept the need for pauses, humanitarian pauses, so
food can move around. He's gotten the Israelis to change their policies for accepting food into the port of Israel so that it can get down to Gaza.
And if you look at the amount of aid that is getting in now compared to what was getting in some months ago, it has gone up considerably. Is it
enough? It's never enough. Do all the types of aid that need to get in, medical, humanitarian, and so forth, get in? They don't. Every day we're
working this problem. Every day I'm working this problem.
But we do feel we've made considerable progress. We are -- we have stared into the face of famine in Northern Gaza and tried to surge enough food in
to avert that famine. We are still trying every day to avert famine in other parts of Gaza as well, and we'll keep doing that. But we do believe
that tangible progress as a direct result of presidential intervention has been demonstrably shown. We're not satisfied with that. We need to see
more. But I think that President Biden actually does have quite a bit to show for his engagement with the prime minister.
ISAACSON: You were in the thick of this huge prisoner exchange that happened between Russia, the United States, and the western world, called
the biggest prisoner exchange since the Cold War. But I look back at the Cold War, I don't think we had one even as big during the Cold War. It's
probably since World War II that's the biggest.
Tell me about, you know, you had Paul Whelan out, you've got Evan Gershkovich out, and Vladimir Kara-Murza, it was a big deal. One of the
things that happened was it was stuck in place, and there's an old Dwight Eisenhower line about when a problem's unsolvable, make it bigger, enlarge
it, try to do bigger. How did you end up doing that, which is enlarge the problem, thus solve it?
SULLIVAN: Well, it actually began before Evan Gershkovich, the Wall Street Journal reporter, was even taken prisoner in Russia. It started when we
were trying to get Paul Whelan out. And the Russians were falsely accusing Paul Whelan of being a spy. And they were saying, we will only exchange
Paul Whelan for a spy, for an intelligence asset. And in particular, they focused on this fellow in Germany, Krasikov, an FSB agent who had been
convicted of murder.
Now, we, the United States, did not have the capacity to trade Krasikov to Russia for Paul Whelan or anyone else. He was in German custody. Then when
Paul -- when Evan Gershkovich was taken, it became clear to us that the only way to get Paul and Evan out would be to put Krasikov in play. But to
get the Germans to take the bold step of putting Krasikov on the table, there needed to be something for the Germans to be able to show their own
people that they were delivering, consistent with German interests and German values, and that's where the idea of adding political prisoners from
Russia to the mix came into focus, and we began working on that many months ago to basically create a trade that involved Americans, Russian political
prisoners and Germans held hostage in Russia.
And when we put it all together, we also then had to add other countries as well to create a full package that could result in the release of the
American prisoners and the Russian prisoners last week.
[13:30:00]
ISAACSON: The final steps of these negotiations occurred when President Biden was recovering from COVID and he was trying to weigh his options in
the 2024 race. And at the very end, according to The Wall Street Journal, he ended up having to call the leader of Slovenia and it was just an hour
before he ends up withdrawing from the race. That's an incredible tableau. Tell me what it says about those negotiations and the man you've worked
with for so long, President Biden.
SULLIVAN: Well, what was kind of remarkable about this deal was the number of pieces that had to fall into place. Norway, Poland, Germany, Turkey, and
ultimately Slovenia. Slovenia was offering up two Russian spies to be returned to Russia as part of the overall deal. It was the final piece of
the puzzle that we were trying to put into place. Get agreement from Slovenia, not just to offer them up, but to do it by August 1st so that
this could all happen simultaneously on a single day.
So, on the weekend of July 20th and 21st, I was in Aspen. I think you were there as well. And I was in my hotel room when I received a call from our
team saying, you need to call your counterpart, the Slovenian national security adviser, and you need to ask him if they can accelerate their plan
to resolve the cases of these two Russian spies so that they can be sent to Turkey on August 1st. I made that call. We had a good, constructive
conversation.
And then my counterpart said, you know, this ultimately lies with the prime minister. The only way we can actually get this done is if the president
and the prime minister have a conversation to lock it in. So, the next day, Sunday, July 21st, President Biden spoke with his Slovenian counterpart
about noon. And they agreed. They sealed the deal. We saw that we had the pieces in place, and three hours later, President Biden announced to the
world he wasn't running for re-election. This was actually his last official act before he went out to the country and the world to declare
that he was going to run through the tape of this term but not seek a second term.
ISAACSON: You were trying to get Alexei Navalny out, the Russian dissident, for a long time. Do you regret or feel that the fact that these
negotiations took so long meant that we were not able to get Navalny out?
SULLIVAN: Look, we'll never know. And I think about that question a lot. I think about the opposite too. Does the fact that he was in play, in any
way, did that fact have an impact on his death? We don't know one way or the other, frankly.
So, because of the opacity and the darkness of the Russian system and the brutality of that system, all we could do through this period Was drive as
aggressively and relentlessly as we could to get to an end game. And the fact that we ultimately got to one, even after the tragic death of Navalny,
even after many false starts, even after many months is quite remarkable.
This deal should not have happened. It should not have come together, and yet, somehow it did. And I'm very proud of that. I think the president is
very proud of that. And we're grateful to have the Americans Home and so many Russian freedom fighters, including Vladimir Kara-Murza, free to
continue their fight.
ISAACSON: It was kind of personal, too. I noticed that you teared up.
SULLIVAN: Yes, I tried to retract that at the podium after I did so, but I did. And it's because, you know, I invested, not just in the strategy and
the statecraft of trying to get this done, but I invested in the families. I met with them repeatedly over the course of months. The families of Paul
Whelan and Evan Gershkovich and also Kurmasheva, the Radio Free Europe journalist who we also got out, an American citizen.
And, in fact, the day Navalny died, Evan Gershkovich's parents were in my office. And they looked at me and they said, does this mean that Evan is
not coming home? And I told them that I was determined that he would come home, that we would find a way, and I said it with great confidence and
conviction, but in the back of my mind, I didn't know for sure.
And so, it was moments like that, over the course of this effort, that, you know, you can't help. There's a huge intellectual component to this, but
there's an emotional component, too, because these are human beings, and this is a human endeavor.
And so, on the day they were finally released, I have to concede I was, yes, a bit emotional about it on behalf of the families, on behalf of the
president, who I feel really delivered this, and on behalf of having so many allies who were willing to step up for us, for the United States, all
of that converged in that moment at the podium.
[13:35:00]
ISAACSON: During the weekend Situation Room meetings on the Middle East, Vice President Harris was there. I know you can't talk about what she was
doing precisely in those meetings, but just in general, now that she's a nominee of the party, tell me -- give me some examples of what she has done
in foreign policy in Situation Room, some story about how she has focused things.
SULLIVAN: Well, I've got to sit in the Situation Room with Vice President Harris since day one of the Biden-Harris administration. I've seen her in
crises, including when Israel's been under attack, when U.S. service members in the Middle East have been under attack, when Russia invaded
Ukraine. I've seen her counsel the president. I've seen her ask incredibly penetrating questions of our military and Intelligence Community, and I've
seen her proposed strategic initiatives, especially when it comes to where we are on the diplomatic offense in the Indo-Pacific region.
This has been an area she's been particularly focused on. She's traveled to the region repeatedly. She's built relationships with those leaders. And
even in the case of the hostage negotiations, Vice President Harris had a critical meeting with Chancellor Scholz in Munich, Germany earlier this
year to help move the ball forward.
So, much like Vice President Biden was a central national security player for President Obama, Vice President Harris has been a central national
security player for President Biden, and is the kind of person who now, after four years, has the experience, the depth of knowledge, the
engagement, and frankly, just the good judgment to be able to handle these hard issues extremely well.
ISAACSON: Jake Sullivan, thank you so much for joining us.
SULLIVAN: Thanks for having me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Well, now to a story that's been off the radar for too many and for too long. The humanitarian catastrophe in Sudan is going from bad to
worse, and there are reports of famine and bombing in the Zamzam displacement camp in North Darfur. While aid groups accuse one of the
warring factions, known as the Rapid Support Forces, of withholding aid.
It's just the latest tragedy as two rival generals battle for control of the country, leaving 26 million people at crisis levels of hunger. The
International Criminal Court says that it's seeking arrest warrants for those perpetrating crimes in Sudan.
But what is needed now the most? Joining me now on this is Will Carter, the country director there for the Norwegian Refugee Council. Will, thank you
so much for joining us. You are back there in Sudan now. As we noted, the world's largest displacement crisis unfolding before our very eyes. 7
million are believed to be internally displaced. More than 2 million have fled to neighboring countries. Now, the real concern is about starvation.
More than 16,000 have reportedly been killed. Talk to us about what you're seeing on the ground right now.
WILL CARTER, SUDAN COUNTRY DIRECTOR, NORWEGIAN REFUGEE COUNCIL: Thanks, Bianna. I mean, it's a brutal situation. I was just in the east of the
country, not far from the front lines with our teams and other organizations that are responding. And as you say, there's a famine in
Sudan and this war that's ravaging city after city after city that besieged or assaulted or captured now.
And for me, each of those cities, hundreds of thousands of people are fleeing. And when I was there just a few days ago with our teams, you know,
I saw people screaming out, you know, women who have had to leave cities under gunfire. Some of this wasn't even the first time that they had to be
completely uprooted. Some didn't even have shoes, elderly people, pregnant woman who've been walking for days through the mud to seek safety.
You know we're trying to respond in areas where it's very overcrowded at this point. It's very scarce resources to respond. So, it's really
important to scale up in earlier in the years in Darfur. And you know, even then we could see the makings of this famine. You know, (INAUDIBLE) war
widow, and she was trying to take care of her children. She attempted to sell everything in her house and was down to the last window pane, which
she was about to sell off just to buy a few more bits of bread. And even just now, speaking to our teams, they're seeing communities, a child dying
every day.
GOLODRYGA: Dying every single day. And you're on the ground there. I don't want to say that you're helpless because I know that your foundation and
the Norwegian Refugee Council is trying to help. What exactly are you able to provide?
CARTER: We provide different types of assistance. You know, us and with partners. We're providing cash so people can buy food, medicines, you know,
clothes if they need it. We're trying to get children into a safe space so that they can get a sense of normalcy, shelter, materials, water.
[13:40:00]
It's possible but there's really limited aid and, you know, really, we need to scale up this country of almost 50 million people is desperately in
need.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, you mentioned on Twitter that you've had to resort to actually groveling for finances to provide even temporary aid. Where are
your resources coming from?
CARTER: I mean, we're very grateful to the U.S. as being a -- you know, playing a large part, but we're still -- you know, two-thirds through this
year, we're barely a third funded as a -- the overall humanitarian response in what's such a serious situation. Europe has stepped up a bit but not
enough. We really want to see other world powers, regional powers, help people in Sudan and help the humanitarian response there.
GOLODRYGA: Secretary of State Antony Blinken was asked specifically about the crisis there recently at a conference in Aspen, Colorado in the United
States. Here's what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: And there's some places that are not getting the attention that they probably deserve because there's only
so much that people can digest. Sudan eight now is probably the worst humanitarian crisis in the world and yet, it's not getting the attention it
deserves. It is from our administration. We're intensely focused on it. More to come in the days and weeks ahead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: To hear the secretary of state say quite honestly, right, there's only so much people can digest. How do you relay that to those who
you are interacting with on the ground there, when they're asking where is the help, what can be done, how do I keep my child alive, where is my next
meal going to come from? How can you possibly, in 2024, respond to them with saying there's just only so much people can digest?
CARTER: Bianna, we can't. I mean, it's -- you know, it's heartbreaking as it is. The -- you know, we really reject the idea that there's only so much
political bandwidth. We really want the world to see, we're seeing only a fraction of the attention that goes to Ukraine, or as I've just heard to
Gaza. So, it's really underplayed crisis. I don't believe that the world doesn't have it in it to be more empathetic. And to at least, if not
financially, you know, provide political attention from all parts.
But yes, I mean, we reject the idea that the, you know, there's only so much attention that you can give because what's happening here will scar,
you know, global (INAUDIBLE) to come.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And we should note, the United States is planning to bring the sides together in Switzerland later this month. They're co-hosting
events both in Switzerland and Saudi Arabia. As we noted, the ICC is planning to issue arrest warrants because there are war crimes that are
allegedly being committed here, sexual violence reports, namely, we should say, the use of rape as a weapon of war is something, sadly, that's not
new. There are gang rapes reported, forced marriages.
Talk about the war widows and some of the people that you've interacted with that have seen this up close and personal.
CARTER: I mean, we're mostly helping people who are having to leave from areas -- neighborhoods affected by war and all the brutality that happens
there. And yes, you know, our teams, even me, people have disclosed that they have faced sexual violence, have met, you know, widows who are
pregnant because of what has happened. It's a really desperate situation.
Now, we're not specialists in this. We're not a human rights organization, which I think, you know, are investigating should be documenting. And I
hope have the right level of domestic and international support to end conflict related sexual violence and bring this to justice. So, I think
it's clear that this war is taking a very brutal effect on the bodies of millions of girls and women.
GOLODRYGA: Are you and other aid workers directly interacting with the militants or the RSF there?
CARTER: We have to negotiate with all sides in this conflict for humanitarian access and ideally to try and keep civilians safer. So, there
are many, many sides in this conflict.
GOLODRYGA: Is that getting through at all? Are you able to get the aid through, through these negotiations?
CARTER: Some, yes. It's difficult and it's slow in different ways. All sides, to an extent, are obstructing the access of humanitarians to people
or people's access to services in differing ways. Really, we -- you know, we've had some successes. We're still able to work in many parts of this
country. There's not funding and there's not all the space and things aren't as quick as we would like. But definitely things getting blocked as
well.
[13:45:00]
GOLODRYGA: Yes, we should note the U.N. trucks filled with food and medicine that's urgently needed, there are reports of them being blocked in
Darfur. Lastly, just the wider implications for the region, because as we know, Sudan used to be known as a regional breadbasket, that's not the case
at this point. What are the implications regionally now?
CARTER: Yes. I mean, what's happening in Sudan is a catastrophe, which could destabilize the region. Clearly, we've seen millions of refugees
having to come to very poor parts of neighboring countries who were also struggling with their own humanitarian situation. We're really worried
about the spillover of violence and some of the different groups and fighting to happen.
So, you know, if there isn't a solution for Sudan, if there isn't aid which can help stabilize what's needed, this will destabilize the region and
worse.
GOLODRYGA: Well, thank you so much, Will Carter, for doing what you're doing to make sure that these people there that are suffering immensely are
not forgotten. We will check in with you again very soon. Thank you.
CARTER: Thanks, Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: And finally, as mass displacement triggers a rise in the number of refugees globally, it's hard to find hope, but my next guest is a
testament to the resilience of the human spirit.
Yusra Mardini left Syria with her family as the civil war took hold. When fleeing to Lesbos, the boat she and other refugees were stopped and began
to sink. Yusra, her sister, and two others jumped out and swam, pushing the boat to safety over several hours. Well, in 2016, she was part of the
inaugural Refugee Team at Rio and competed in Tokyo 2020. It's an extraordinary story that reached the big screen in the film, "The
Swimmers."
Well, now she's back reporting on the games for Eurosport, which is owned by CNN parent company Warner Brothers Discovery. Yusra Mardini joins me
now. Yusra, welcome to the program. It's so great to see you there in Paris as a reporter analyzing these games.
And look how far things have come. As we noted, the inaugural Refugee Team there debuting in 2016. At the time there were 10 athletes, three different
sports, including yourself. Now, there are 37 athletes, 12 different sports. Talk about what this means for you.
YUSRA MARDINI, FORMER SWIMMER, REFUGEE OLYMPIC TEAM AND TWO-TIME OLYMPIAN: This is really incredible. Thank you for having me today. I think the
Refugee Olympic Team is a team that represents hope. It represents millions of refugees around the world. The numbers, unfortunately, are rising. It
went -- in 2016, it was 65 million displaced people around the world. And now, today, it's 120 million displaced people around the world. 40 percent
of them are children.
So, it is really, really important to acknowledge that this team is so important excited to so many people around the world. And to cheer them on
as our second home crowd, I mean, watching them compete is just really pure joy for me because I know and I shared a lot of their stories on Eurosport,
and it's just incredible to see how resilience there.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, I remember watching them as we see on the boat and the opening night ceremonies and just the enthusiasm and the warm embrace they
got, it sends chills, really, because you know what so many of these athletes have been through and more importantly, as you mentioned, how many
they represent around the world. And sadly, that number is only rising.
Talk to us about the experience of training, what it even means to be a refugee athlete, how they get to perform in the Olympics.
MARDINI: Yes. So, for me specifically, my sport, swimming, and I retired, but when I was a swimmer, it was home away from home. For me, when I got to
Germany, I wanted to be included. I wanted to be a part of the community. I wanted to give back to Germany and I felt like swimming is my way to show
that refugees can dream and achieve their goals and be able to fight for it.
So, the team competing here, they all have different stories. They all were forced to leave their countries because of war, politics, and violence, and
none of them really chose to leave their countries. So, for them to be here to compete and to represent millions of refugees around the world is really
important to show whether that's younger refugees or anyone basically around the world that a lot can happen in your life, but you can determine
what you can do next.
And yes, obstacles cannot really stand in the way, they're here. And they are really filled with joy. And as I said, they're so brave to be here and
to represent millions around the world.
GOLODRYGA: And a medal win at that, too, at these games --
MARDINI: Exactly.
GOLODRYGA: -- for boxers Cindy Ngamba.
MARDINI: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: Guaranteed herself a medal after winning her quarterfinal. She's originally from Cameroon, has been living in Britain. There you see
her. For 15 years since she was 10 years old. She's still waiting, we should note, for British citizenship. But wow, what a moment this was.
[13:50:00]
Can you talk to us about -- listen, for any athlete, the ultimate goal is to win a medal. But to achieve, what, and overcome everything that these
refugees, you yourself have, to get that medal, walk us through what that feeling in that moment must be like.
MARDINI: These athletes are not just going through the normal process of other Olympians. These athletes, they might have lost relatives, they might
have lost everything, they might have lost their home, their families, and their friends, and they started all over again from zero in a new country,
they had to meet new friends, they had to learn the language, they had to feel home again. And some of them still don't feel home and they struggle a
lot and sports can be their escape, whether that's helping with their mental health, with their trauma, with building self-esteem again.
So, I think this is the simplest right, is to have access to education and sports. I think this should be everywhere in the world and we should
welcome refugees because they are actually assets to our communities, to the host communities and they can really contribute and be incredible role
models just like the Refugee Olympic Team.
So, some of them are still waiting -- I mean, all of them are still waiting for their citizenship. Some of them live in these countries for more than
10 years and they don't have it. So, the struggle of competing wasn't -- I mean, before the Olympic team was created, the Refugee Olympic Team, it
wasn't even an opportunity, she didn't have an opportunity to even represent Great Britain and I think she's such an asset to that team.
So, I'm really, really happy that Cindy, which her middle name is, Winner, is winning now, and I'm really, really so excited. Yes, her middle name is
Cindy Winner Ngamba.
GOLODRYGA: That's amazing.
MARDINI: So, it's just incredible. Her parents just knew this -- she will be an incredible woman, and she will compete again tomorrow. And a lot of
the Refugee Olympic Team, most of them competed incredibly, and they come together from everywhere in the world to form this incredible team to send
a message of hope and peace to the world. So, I'm really proud.
GOLODRYGA: Well, no doubt Cindy Winner Ngamba deserves not only a medal, but as you noted, citizenship for Great Britain, where she's been living
for 15 years. And I'm so glad you mentioned just the mental health aspect of this because, as we know, athletes that aren't even refugees. Simone
Biles has talked about mental health. It's so important that so many of these athletes have come public and talked about their struggles.
But for refugees, one can only imagine it's tenfold what they've experienced. The loss of family members. I'm so sorry. I know that you
recently also experience the loss of a family member. Can you talk to us about the importance of having this team and teammates there for each
other? Because unlike anyone else, they understand what the others are experiencing.
MARDINI: Yes. So, thank you for mentioning that. I always try to be very authentic. I lost a member of my family trying to cross yesterday. I think
she was very, very scared of the crossing and she passed away from a heart attack. So, I wanted to share that because I want the world to know that
refugees are really forced to leave their countries.
And just like me and the Refugee Olympic Team, there are so many of them that deal with the trauma and pain of abandoning everything, not even being
able to go back home for the funerals of their loved ones. I mean, Cindy was not able to go back to the Cameroon because she is a part of the LGBT
community, as example. There are so many reasons why we can't go back home or we cannot even be close to our loved ones when we lose them.
So, it's just really incredibly tough. And I think the sport is our, as I said, home away from home. So, it is really, really incredible to see that
the ISC and UNHCR are supporting the Refugee Olympic Team and giving them this opportunity to feel normal again, to feel that they belong again, and
to make sure that these athletes are giving equal opportunities to any athlete around the world.
I mean, this is only the third time the Refugee Olympic Team exists, and we have two chances of a medal. We have also Fernando who's a kayaker, and
it's just going to be incredible. He has -- he won a medal in Tokyo and, yes, he's competing again. So, I am really, really incredibly excited to
see what the team does, whether that's this Olympics or the next Olympics. Of course, it is a bittersweet feeling having the Refugee Olympic Team, but
I am really incredibly of what they represent, of what they are doing right now.
[13:55:00]
GOLODRYGA: And we are proud of you, and we are proud of them, and they are so fortunate to have somebody as a spokesperson, as somebody that they can
look up to as a mentor, like yourself, Yusra, really representing them so well. Again, I am so sorry, we are so sorry for the loss of your family
member there, but you are doing a real service to all of these refugees who are just wanting to do what they love and that is sport. And it is a
beautiful thing to see, especially when they win medals.
MARDINI: Thank you so much.
GOLODRYGA: Yusra Mardini, thank you so much for joining us from the Paris Olympics.
MARDINI: Thank you. Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. Remember, you can
always catch us online, on our website and all-over social media. Thanks so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
