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Amanpour
Interview with B'Tselem Executive Director Yuli Novak; Interview with The Ford Foundation President Darren Walker; Interview with Protect Democracy Writer and Editor Amanda Carpenter. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired August 14, 2024 - 13:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The entire unjust world does not care about this. That's all I can say, Hassan says.
Just numbers. We are just numbers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Unbearable grief in Gaza as latest ceasefire talks hang in the balance. The people caught in the middle.
And tortured in detention after CNN, Israel's Channel 12, and the U.N. exposed abuse of Palestinians in Israeli custody. The searing Israeli
report. I'm joined by Yuli Novak, executive director of the Human Rights Group, B'Tselem.
Then, fighting inequality. He made it his life's work. Now, Darren Walker says it's time to leave the Ford Foundation.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANDA CARPENTER, WRITER AND EDITOR, PROTECT DEMOCRACY: We need the good guys to stay on the field. We can't abandon, you know, our voting booths.
We can't abandon this just because it's been a little rocky.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- preserving democracy, elections under threat in America, and how to fight back.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
On the eve of ceasefire talks, the Middle East is on edge. Hamas says it will not take part in this latest round, but is willing to meet mediators
afterwards. The U.S. insists negotiations with Israel will still go ahead in Qatar tomorrow and that a ceasefire in Gaza is still possible. Senior
Iranian officials are saying only a ceasefire deal would stop their retaliation against Israel for the assassination of Hamas leader Ismail
Haniyeh in Tehran two weeks ago.
Meanwhile, everyday people are dying in Gaza as the death toll there approaches 40,000. It's a stark reminder of those caught in the middle of
these negotiations. They are the Israeli hostages who are held there, their families, and ordinary Palestinians who face starvation and the brutality
of Israel's bombs.
Amongst the many tragic stories out of Gaza, the death of newborn twins and their mother, and the excruciating grief of their father. Correspondent
Jeremy Diamond brings us this report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): How do you console a man whose whole world has been shattered? A man who hours earlier
was locked in the warm embrace of his wife and newborn babies. But now, cries out in agony, begging to see them one last time.
His new horrific reality is too much to bear. His wife and twin babies are dead, killed in an Israeli strike on their apartment in Central Gaza,
according to hospital officials.
Aysal and her brother Ayser were just three days old. The Palestinian ministry of health says they are among 115 infants born and killed during
the war in Gaza.
Hours earlier, their mother, Jumana, a pharmacist, was blissfully responding to congratulations and well wishes on Facebook.
I feel like it was a miracle, Alhamdulillah sister. Everything is going well.
Jumana, Aysal and Ayser now lie here in a room consumed with Mohammed's inconsolable grief.
These are the birth certificates, he says. While I was getting them, I received a phone call telling me our apartment was targeted and that my
wife and children were at Al-Aqsa Hospital.
Neighbors are still sifting through the aftermath of that strike. Hospital officials saying Israeli shell hit the building. The Israeli military did
not respond to CNN's request for comments.
The victims of several other strikes in Central Gaza also pour into Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital where more parents grieve the deaths of their children.
How can I live after you, my son, this mother cries.
Amid the grief there is also anger and exasperations including from a dead man's father.
The entire unjust world does not care about this. That's all I can say, Hassan says. Just numbers. We are just numbers. But for God we are martyrs.
[13:05:00]
One by one, their bodies are brought out of the morgue so the living can pray for the dead, including nine-month-old Jamal (ph) and his father, Uday
(ph).
Mohammed is performing the same rituals for his wife and twin babies. But prayers offer little comfort for a man who has lost everything, for a new
father with no children to raise.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Jeremy Diamond reporting there with support from Palestinian journalists inside Gaza as the Israeli authorities continue to bar foreign
journalists from accessing it.
But the suffering of Palestinians goes beyond even this. There are several allegations of human rights abuses inside Israeli detention centers.
A CNN investigation in May exposed abuses at the Sde Taman detention camp, including beatings. Israeli Channel 12 broadcast footage appearing to show
a detainee being severely sexually assaulted by soldiers. Five were arrested and are now under house arrest. The United Nations has also
reported Palestinian detainees being tortured, mistreated, and sexually abused, with at least 53 people dying in Israeli detention.
And the latest, a major report from the Israeli human rights group, B'Tselem, has collected testimony from dozens of Palestinian former
detainees, alleging abuse, starvation, and more. The IDF has repeatedly rejected allegations of systematic abuse. Yuli Novak is the executive
director of B'Tselem and she's joining me now from Tel Aviv.
Yuli Novak, welcome to the program. Your report entitled "Welcome to Hell" makes very, very shocking and disturbing reading. And, of course, after
October 7th, where 1,200 Israelis, including civilians were brutally massacred. The Association of Civil Rights in Israel is accused the
government of, quote, consciously defying international law. Can you tell us the major findings of your report?
YULI NOVAK, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, B'TSELEM: Yes. So, thank you for having me. The report we published last week contains testimonies, or based on
testimonies of 55 people, Palestinians, who got released from Israeli jails, different detention centers -- 16 different detention centers
throughout the last month. And they told us on the condition, as I said, in these detention centers since October 7.
What we heard again and again, repeating stories and description of ongoing daily abuse, physical and mental. We heard about sleep deprivation, about
starvation of people, about sexual assault, about inhumane sanitary conditions that people are held in. And those things and many more are --
became -- what we figured out from all these testimonies, became the norm in Israeli prison system.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you how you got these testimonies? What was the methodology?
NOVAK: Yes, of course. So, B'Tselem is an Israeli human rights organization, but our staff are combined from Jews and Palestinians from
all over the region, between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.
A large part of our staff -- are field researchers, they are Palestinians, and they connected those people who were brave enough to come and give
their testimonies. We're talking about people from Gaza -- the Gaza Strip from the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and some Israeli citizens. And
the astonishing thing about it is that, again, different people who don't know each other, some of them young, some of them old, who got arrested in
completely different circumstances, and the vast majority of them got released without any charges, right? So, they were held for a week, two
weeks, a month, six months, whatever, and then got released, and all of them experienced -- repeated the same experience again and again.
So, these practices and the similarities that we heard from the various testifiers show us that we're talking about pattern, about a policy, and
not about a specific occasions. And in that sense, you know, you mentioned that a man and what we heard or what we know now is that Sde Teiman is
actually just the tip of the iceberg as much as it concerned the treatment of Israel, of its Palestinians detainees.
AMANPOUR: I'm going to get to Sde Teiman in a moment because CNN did an investigation there. But first, I want to bring some of the testimonies
that you've received and that has been made accessible to us. This -- as you said, you spoke to several dozen people. This one now is Sari Huria
(ph), who is an Israeli Arab lawyer from Haifa.
[13:10:00]
And here's what he told you about what he saw while himself, I believe, in detention.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARI HURIA (PH) (through translator): They put a prisoner named Mar'I in the cell next to mine. Abd a-Rahman Mar'i. He screamed in pain constantly,
begging for a doctor. No one paid any attention. Mar'I screamed until morning, and then went quiet. I didn't sleep all night. In the morning, the
guards came to count us. They said, Mar'i, wake up. Of course, prisoners are supposed to get up. They said again, "Mar'i, get up, but he didn't
move.
I saw the guard call his officer who came immediately. I saw and heard them open Mar'i's door and start kicking him. One said, get up, you animal. Get
up, you dog. Finally, they understood he'd never get up again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: How many people do you believe died in custody as Huria (ph) is reporting on that particular care?
NOVAK: We actually don't know. What we know about is that we're talking about more than 60 people in the course of, you know, the last 10 months,
but they either in custody or while they're -- they were in custody, either in jail or while there were transport to jail. So, we actually don't know
the actual number.
I have to say that 60 is already, you know, something that is hard to grasp. But again, the situation. And, you know, one other thing that we
heard again and again is the lack of medical treatment, right? So, people not only being beaten up daily and going on and living in these
unbelievable inhumane sanitary conditions, they are also not getting any or almost any medical treatment. Only in the extreme, extreme cases. And even
that, as we heard, not always happening.
AMANPOUR: And, Yuli, we also have another testimony, and this is a woman. I mean, people may be, I don't know, surprised that women are also being
rounded up. She, too, is a Palestinian citizen of Israel. She studies at an Israeli university. And she was taken to the Hasharon Prison. And in the
testimony that we're going to play, she describes a punishment after they asked for sanitary pads while several women had their periods. Here's what
she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): The next morning, the female guards opened the door, annoyed, and one yelled, who banged on the door for
pads yesterday? The male guard on duty the night before pointed at a prisoner and said, that one. They started their day with her. They pulled
her hair, hit her, threw her underwearin the toilet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, how were the women treated in general? And have you in the past seen this kind of behavior before?
NOVAK: So, maybe I'll start with that. You know, we're all -- the people who worked on this report, it's the whole organization, we're all very,
like, experience and have a background in investigation and doing exactly that work. And we were all, to be sincere, shocked when we figure out that
what we're seeing is, again, this policy and the similarities and the fact that we're talking about something organized and systematically.
And in that sense, something changed after October 7. And you know, the Israeli prison system was never -- unlike what our government tried to
portrait, it was never a kindergarten or a summer camp for Palestinians. Just if -- it was also always a tool for oppression against the Palestinian
people, just to -- if you think about it, the numbers are astonishing.
We know of more than 800,000 Palestinians from the territories, from the West Bank and Gaza that were held in Israeli prisons since '67. It's almost
a fifth of the whole population of that area. So, think about that -- how it infects the population and the community as a whole. But no doubt things
have changed dramatically since October 7th.
And in a way, it is not surprising, it is devastating to see, but it is not surprising when you hear the officials responsible on the prisons and their
stand and their agenda, the racist and violent agenda in regard to Palestinians everywhere, but especially in jails.
[13:15:00]
AMANPOUR: I want you -- you know, we brought up Sde Teiman and the -- you know, the consequences of what happened there. Matthew Charles, CNN's
international correspondent, had a very important investigation. And in this excerpt that we originally aired back in May, in this excerpt, he
talks to an Israeli doctor who told CNN about the treatment of Palestinians at the Sde Teiman detention camp. And I'm going to play this little
extract. Remember, this is an Israeli doctor talking to him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The problem is, Gazans who are brought in are labeled as terrorists, and it is very popular opinion over
here that terrorists deserve to die. So, they do not deserve the same medical care as everyone else.
MATTHEW CHARLES, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Satellite imagery obtained by CNN shows how the Sde Teiman facility was expanded
after the October 7th attacks, with detention facilities and makeshift medical bays being added after public hospitals in Israel refused to treat
injured guards and suspects.
Eyewitness accounts describe a field hospital with 15 to 20 patients virtually naked and blindfolded with hands and feet shackled to their beds
and wearing diapers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, this is consistent with what you say is a systematic pattern, especially since October 7th. Do you think that it's about
revenge, as some have suggested?
NOVAK: I think it also have to do with revenge. I think many of the feelings that Israels, including me, have since October 7, you know, we're
all walking around with this trauma and this anxiety inside us. And what I see now is that our government is taking advantage, cynically taking
advantage of this fear and anxiety that we're all in, in order to implement their unbelievable racist, going fascist agenda towards Palestinians.
And in that sense, yes, you know, the public discourse here is sometimes very hard to hear and very hard to listen. And I'm sure revenge is
something that is very much instill into us, almost by our government, almost as, you know, a framework of how we're doing things. This is our
conception of security. The way we keep us secure is to abuse, to kill, to distract how much as we can of the Palestinian people. And that's quite a
devastating state to be in as a society, because of what's happening today, but also when I think about the future and where we are heading.
AMANPOUR: So, Yuli Novak, now for the Israeli response. Obviously, we have sought response from the Israeli authorities. In this case, we have
received response from the Israeli prison service, which is responsible for these detention centers. Here's what they told us today. We are not aware
of the claims you described, and as far as we know, no such events have occurred under IPS responsibility. Nonetheless, prisoners and detainees
have the right to file a complaint that will be fully examined and addressed by official authorities.
They went on to say this, since October 7, 2023, as instructed by Minister Ben-Gvir, the prison conditions of the national security prisoners have
been made strict in accordance with the minister's policy of stopping the improved prison conditions they have received in the past.
Now, as you know, and perhaps our viewers know, Itamar Ben-Gvir is the extreme right-wing, one of the authorities that are in coalition that keep
the Netanyahu government propped up. And he has been made minister of national security. He has also said since October 7th that he is proud
that, during my time, we have changed all the conditions, i.e., in the prison services where they have deteriorated sharply.
So, what is your response to this response and how personally responsible Ben-Gvir might be?
NOVAK: So, first of all, I'm shamed as an Israeli to hear that because, you know, they can file a complaint to who? To the guards that just beat
them up? To who? When? You know, when those prisoners are brought in a -- to a judge, to a court, it's by video. That's a legislation that the
Israeli government made. So, it's by video and the guards are standing here and some testimonies we hear that the guards are beating them and
flattening them just before they are approaching the judge not to say anything.
[13:20:00]
So, that's completely ridiculous and really, it's amazing to see that they're -- they have the boldness to react that way. But more than that,
you know, we're talking about Ben-Gvir, and that's amazing. He's proud this -- you said right-wing. It's the most extreme. You cannot go farther in the
far-right than Ben-Gvir. And then, this is the person who got the responsibility over the police and the prison system. Two of the state
apparatus state system that have the most potential to be violent and cruel.
And this man who went -- stood up and showed his agenda, you know, is racist, violent, sadistic agenda. And then, just seize the moment and
change the whole thing according to that agenda with the other parts of -- you know, the legal gatekeepers, the parliament, the government itself, all
backing him up or turning a blind eye and let this thing happen.
So, I don't know, I have no trust and no -- any trust in the Israeli government to investigate this, to even react to this. They've proven us
once and again and again and again in the last month that they care nothing, not about human rights and not about human dignity or human life.
It's the same -- you just talked about. It goes to the Israeli hostages, Israeli citizen hostages that are held in Gaza. And this government,
including Ben-Gvir, doing whatever they can in order to make sure they won't be back alive and it goes to the treatment of Palestinians in Israeli
jails that became torture camps in practice.
AMANPOUR: So, the IDF response to this is that it operates according to international law and Israeli law, protecting the rights of detainees in
its facilities. And we have a list of what it has said, like it categorically rejects allegations of systemic abuse, including sexual abuse
in its detention facilities. Again, detainees are provided with three meals a day, maintained hygiene, regular showers, clean clothes and adequate
medical care.
It goes on to say other things. But I specifically asked retired Major General Guy Zur, yesterday, if these allegations, particularly the ones
that Sde Teiman were proven, and there are, as I say, Israeli soldiers under house arrest, what should happen? And this is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GUY ZUR, RETIRED IDF MAJOR GENERAL: Every soldier that does something that is not legal to a terrorist or other enemy should be punished very hard in
order to broadcast to our soldiers and to strengthen the morale of our soldiers. No doubt about it, it's unbelievable that we got to these places,
but it's still a minority of extremists that we should take them out of our society.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, that was the view of at least one IDF retired official who I spoke to, and I know what your view is. But I want to ask you this. In the
past, you know, B'Tselem has been incredibly investigative and has for decades been revealing all sorts of abuses.
You once had to leave, it was after you were executive director of Breaking the Silence. You've been labeled a traitor. How do you keep doing this
work? How do you face, you know, the obvious anger, I assume, from a large part of Israeli society, particularly after October 7th?
NOVAK: Because I have -- I mean, what other choice do I have? This is my country. This is my home. That's where my family is, and I think that goes
for me and for all my partners and colleagues and team, you know, we're Jews and Palestinians who believe in human rights, in justice, in freedom.
And I don't think any of us have any other choice but to do what we are doing.
It is scary. It does have a price tag on it, especially for our Palestinian comrades who are super bravely do this work, including working on this
report. I can never, I would never understand their bravery and how much they are willing to sacrifice for doing that.
[13:25:00]
But I think we are all doing that just because, you know, we don't have a choice. This is our home and we need to fight over it.
AMANPOUR: Yuli Novak, thank you very much indeed for joining us this evening. Executive director of B'Tselem human rights organization in
Israel.
And our next guest has put human welfare and the fight for equality at the heart of one of America's biggest philanthropic organizations. Darren
Walker has led the Ford Foundation for over a decade. During his tenure, it's distributed over $7 billion in grants and has transformed the
foundation from, quote, generosity to justice, which he also titled his book.
Walker has announced recently that he'll step down at the end of 2025. And he's joining me now from New York. Darren Walker, the fight for social
justice is not just American, but is global. I don't know whether you want to weigh into what you just heard, but it seems that these fights for
equality, particularly of minorities, is a global phenomenon.
DARREN WALKER, PRESIDENT, THE FORD FOUNDATION: It is a global phenomenon, Christiane, and the good news is this is a period when we have over 50
countries engaged in democratic elections. So, the opportunity for democracy to grow and to thrive is before us. And the question is, can we
step into this moment? My view is that inequality is one of the reasons that makes it harder for democracies to thrive.
As I look at the United States of America, we are a nation that is built on the idea of hope and optimism. Inequality is the enemy of hope and
optimism, because it renders hope as an idea that is more and more remote to the average American. And that is bad for our politics and ultimately
bad for our democracy.
AMANPOUR: Again, I don't know whether you want to weigh in, but there seems to be an infusion of hope given the change at the top of the
Democratic ticket going forward. Does that give you hope?
WALKER: Well, we're a nonpartisan organization, but what gives me hope is the idea that more Americans, more people globally, will be engaged in the
idea of voting and determining their leaders. I am excited about the opportunity for more Americans to vote as we look at the landscape
domestically. That's not a political statement. That's a patriotic statement.
I can't imagine anyone not wanting more Americans to vote. That is among the most noble and honorable callings of a citizen.
AMANPOUR: Darren, it may sound strange for me to be asking the head of philanthropy these questions, but you changed the DNA of philanthropic
giving by moving away from just giving, just, you know, paying back, and attaching the mission to justice. In fact, you know, not generosity, but
justice as well. How did you come up with that idea?
WALKER: That idea came up because I was reading a rather obscure speech by Dr. Martin Luther King that he gave just a few months before he was
assassinated in 1968. And he spoke to a group of philanthropists, and he said the following, philanthropy is commendable. But it should not allow
the philanthropist to overlook the economic injustice which makes philanthropy necessary.
And so, what Dr. King was saying was something different than Rockefeller or Carnegie or Mellon or Ford said. What he was saying was it's not just
about generosity, charity, giving back. He was saying that it was about human dignity, justice. And that those of us who are privileged might
indeed ultimately have to give something up in order so that our fellow citizens could live with greater shared prosperity.
AMANPOUR: You have been described by many of the great and the good in the United States as completely redefining the DNA of philanthropy and the
philanthropic community. Melinda Gates, for instance, says you know, you've led the entire philanthropic community to re-examine and re-imagine it's
bedrock assumptions and Barack Obama has sung your praises as well.
You also don't step away and don't shy away from being a proud capitalist. If I'm getting this right. You have been on boards of some of the great
American corporations and you don't see any sort of difference or any sort of issue with philanthropy and with the capitalist system. Explain that.
[13:30:00]
WALKER: Well, first of all, I am a capitalist. But I have to say that the kind of capitalism we're generating today is not sustainable because there
isn't enough shared prosperity. And so, at the Ford Foundation, we've been looking for ways to model and demonstrate how we bring about a broader
sense of ownership in our society.
So, for example, one of the initiatives we are working on, Ownership Works, seeks to ensure that workers have equity ownership in the companies they
work for. My grandfather, who was semi-literate with the third-grade education, was a porter, a shoeshine man in his -- the oil company where he
worked. He got equity. He was a participant in a profit-sharing plan that allowed him to retire with dignity.
When we look at the landscape for retirement for American workers today, it's rather stark because we know from research that significant numbers of
Americans are not prepared. They do not have enough savings. And most actually are not owners of the company they work for.
AMANPOUR: And, Darren, you've given away, I believe under your tenure, some $7 billion in these kinds of game changing missions to sort of, as you
say, do what you've just been saying, bring justice and equality higher up. But you've also invested in diversifying the arts. For example, you helped
fund the Met Opera's first production by a black composer, Terence Blanchard, and the thing was called "Fire Shut Up in My Bones." I
interviewed him about it. But why is that on the agenda of a foundation like yours? What does that do to fulfill your mission?
WALKER: Because the arts is a place where inequality in our society has been reflected. The Metropolitan Opera, like most arts organizations, had
no history of presenting arts reflecting the broad swath of American society. Indeed, the Metropolitan Opera had accepted a commission in the
early 1900s only to reject it when they learned that the lyricist was a black man, because they said American audiences would not accept the idea
of a black person creating opera. This was high art.
When we look at the visual arts, the numbers of great American artists who have simply been erased, who were ignored because gatekeepers deemed their
work not worthy of fine art. These are ways in which hierarchical systems more broadly in society manifest in the arts.
And the arts are important, Christiane, because they tell us who we are. They are the soundtrack for who we are as a people. And unfortunately, for
far too long in American history, that soundtrack has not been full. It is not reflected the rich diversity of our culture of our society.
AMANPOUR: You reflect the mission, frankly. You grew up in Louisiana and parts of Texas. You were the first preschool -- you know, recruited for the
first preschool in the famous Head Start movement back in the '60. I think it was publicly funded state college, et cetera. And in previous
interviews, you have said, quote, there is no doubt that Henry Ford would be surprised that a black gay man was president of his foundation.
So, what has all this meant to you, and the fact that you've been leading this for the last -- you know, it'll be 12 years by the time you step down?
WALKER: Well, Christiane, my story, while somewhat improbable, could only happen in America. And this is why I feel, on occasions like this, when we
have a chance to reflect on the history of the Ford Foundation, why I believe so much in this country, why I believe in American philanthropy. My
own story of a poor kid in a small town, finding themselves as president of the Ford Foundation, could only happen in America.
And so, today, we've got to ensure that more people, who look like I did some 60 years ago, when that woman approached the little shotgun shack we
lived on a dirt road in rural Texas and told my mother about Head Start, that opportunity, the idea of investing and believing in the human
potential of poor black and brown, rural white people who feel left out and left behind, working class Americans who feel marginalized in an economic
system and a social system that has pushed them aside, that those opportunities can be real.
[13:35:00]
We need to believe in hope and in the future in America. That's what we do at the Ford Foundation. We're in the business of hope. And it's been an
enormous joy and honor to serve this institution.
AMANPOUR: And, Darren Walker, thank you very much. I just end by your quote in The New York Times, as George Washington said, he had it right.
You should leave before it's time to go. And you are leaving with such success at the end of next year. Thank you very much indeed for being with
us.
Less than 90 days until the American presidential election, Georgia Republicans have passed new rules that would allow them to contest the
results. In a swing state, securing those votes is crucial to both Kamala Harris and Donald Trump's paths to victory in November.
After the January 6th Capitol riots that sought to overturn President Biden's win in 2020, Amanda Carpenter of the nonprofit group Protect
Democracy joins Hari Sreenivasan to discuss the challenges and determination to safeguard the integrity of the 2024 election.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARI SREENIVASAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Christiane, thanks. Amanda Carpenter, thanks so much for joining us. We're having this
conversation partly because a lot of people are concerned these days on regardless of what the election outcome is, whether those votes will be
counted, whether they'll be certified, and what kinds of delays there may be.
Just this week, there was some information that came out about the Georgia State Election Board, and this is otherwise a pretty obscure, small kind of
group of people who worked quietly. But you know, just recently at a rally for the former president, President Trump name checked three of the five of
these members who, you know, love and support him. I mean, I guess, tell our audience what happened there, and why is this important?
AMANDA CARPENTER, WRITER AND EDITOR, PROTECT DEMOCRACY: Yes. So, what happened in Georgia is, I think the best way to explain it is to go back to
what happened on January 6th, because what you saw on that day was a massive pressure campaign levied at Former Vice President Mike Pence to use
his role as vice president in certifying elections to somehow take that duty, and use it as a means to delay, obstruct, or block the certification
of Joe Biden as president.
And the word that a lot of constitutional lawyers like to throw around, and ultimately, we're convincing to him to go through and do the right thing,
is that you have a ministerial duty to just count, open up the results from the states, see what happened and certify the results.
And so, what you see happening at a local level, not just in Georgia, but it has happened in other places as well, is that there are other officials
who look at that certification, that ministerial role and say, OK, well maybe there is an opportunity to do more than just count the votes here.
And so, what happened in Georgia is that this board of elections created a rule to say that county officials at the certification process can conduct
a, quote, reasonable inquiry into the results.
SREENIVASAN: It seems like you are kind of changing the role of what a certification board was supposed to do. I mean, in a sports analogy, I
mean, it's like a scorekeeper versus a referee, but now, if they have the ability to have inquiries, that kind of almost makes them the instant
replay room. You know what I mean? It's a different change. And I wonder, is that even legal?
CARPENTER: No. So, this is a thing that we have to remember. So, the reason why, like you -- we do have to take this very seriously, but it is
not in accordance with Georgia State laws and what other kinds of laws that other states also have in the books. And the reason why for this is that if
there are problems with the election or just issues that need to be resolved, there are processes set into place to do this. That's where you
see things like recounts come into play, legal challenges to the election, canvases, things of that nature.
And the reason for that is that you need the certification to take place in the first place. You need a baseline count to go from so that then a
challenge can be made if that needs to be done. But the thing that is just really important to remember here is that, you know, the reason why we have
all these processes and deadlines is so the rightful winner of the election can take office, because if we opened up the certification Pandora's box,
you know, at all these county levels, it makes it very difficult for anyone to ever assume office.
And so, that is why we have all these deadlines. You know, when we think about the presidential election, when all the states have to send their
results to Congress in mid-January, and then we have that certification process with all members of Congress on January 6th. I mean, there's a very
streamlined order and cadence of events that needs to occur so that we can have a peaceful transfer of power.
[13:40:00]
And so, if people are getting the idea that this certification process should be a step that where you can use it to delay the results it's a
really bad idea.
SREENIVASAN: There was a recent Rolling Stone article a week or so ago, and it talked about election deniers, people who do not think that Joe
Biden is the current president or the rightful president, who have taken roles, have been appointed to roles in key battleground states, dozens of
them. And I wonder, when did this sort of an otherwise ministerial role become so politically heated.
I mean, this was not -- this was, you know, something people would volunteer to do, and we would kind of thank them for doing their civic
duty, right. And then, now, all of a sudden, there's just a lot more at stake.
CARPENTER: Yes, there's definitely a lot taken. I think it's a lot harder for people to get involved in the process because they do open themselves
out. I mean, this isn't a good thing by any means, to becoming targets. And we really saw a lot of this happen in the 2020 election.
Yes, there was this pressure campaign in squarely at Mike Pence to get him to not perform his ministerial duty. We're seeing that play out. But you
also saw pressure campaigns aimed at just regular people, you know, election workers that later ended up testifying to the January 6th
Committee, like Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss, and you know, just regular people doing their jobs, often in a volunteer capacity, being targeted by a
lot of bad faith actors.
And so, that was, you know, incredibly terrible. But at the same time, there has been a lot of accountability for what has happened as a result of
those election denial conspiracies. And, you know, I think there's a big gap, right? Because most people look at what happened, and they think there
hasn't been accountability because we haven't got to that step with the person who called a lot of this into action, who was Donald Trump.
But going down the line, I mean, if you look at the fraudulent elector scheme, if you look at people like -- I'm thinking of the attorneys in
Michigan that tried to tamper with voting equipment, and the point is, you know, the downstream effects that this had, the people who went down this
route have had a very hard road, right?
And so, that is the kind of deterrent effect that we need. That is why we need the rule of law to be in place to uphold these things and uphold these
processes. So, once again, I mean, we're probably going to have the largest voter turnout election ever again. Despite all of this, we have incredible
voter turnout.
So, we have people who do have faith in the process, who do want to participate in it. And, you know, a big part of that is making sure there
is accountability. And when people do get these ideas about, well, maybe I can play games of the certification, we have people talking to them, like
my colleagues at Protect Democracy do, and just say, like, this is what the law says. This is a dangerous game.
SREENIVASAN: Amanda, just this week, there was a former clerk in Colorado named Tina Peters who was found guilty by a jury of her peers. This is one
of the first election officials to be charged with a security breach after the 2020 election. I guess, what do you think about that?
CARPENTER: Well, number one, I would say it is a good thing that the rule of law has held. I mean, if you think about how long ago this happened and
how long it took for this conviction to finally be secured, that does seem like the law of justice takes a long time. But ultimately, it does catch
up.
But, Secondly, it's really unfortunate. This woman was clearly caught up in a conspiracy of lies that were promoted, you know, by the former president
and people like Mike Lindell, who she was, you know, just by account of the prosecutors in this case, when you look at what was stated in the
indictment, she was really caught up in trying to find this fraud that they promised she would find if only she would do these things.
And it's really unfortunate that she went through and did these things. But it is -- it should be a deterrent for other people who may be considering
future action like this and that you will not be a hero to a certain conservative base. Ultimately, you will be risking jail, which is sad.
SREENIVASAN: I want to get a little bit to the work that Protect Democracy does. You are -- you know, you call yourself a nonpartisan organization and
you are steadfastly anti-authoritarianism, which seems like something we can all kind of agree on. You and your colleagues have been doing a lot of
work.
Tell me a little bit about what you were telling election officials right now, what are their primary concerns going into this election cycle? What
are the kind of the most frequently asked questions? And I guess what are the answers that you're giving them?
[13:45:00]
CARPENTER: Yes. I mean, I would say, you know, a lot of the work that happens at the local level is just, you know, nuts and bolts education
about what the processes are, you know, what to do when you are possibly targeted with one of these bad faith actors, what resources are available
to you because, you know, our democracy depends on, you know, a lot of people just volunteering their time, working in jobs where, you know, many
times they're not fairly compensated. They're not getting the compensation, you know, that the hours would lead to.
I mean, we think about these election officials, we think of high-ranking people. You know, a lot of people volunteering at the polls, they just want
resources. What do you do when you encounter, you know, this kind of, you know, conspiracy theory that's happening on your Facebook page? You know,
what resources do I have? Who can I go to for help? You know, what are -- what does the law instruct me to do? So, that I can go back to my community
and say, this is what the rules are. This is what I can do. And this is how you can participate in this process.
So, I would say, you know, more than anything, it's just nuts and bolts education, networking with each other, letting them know what resources are
available to them if they encounter problems. And just -- the real basic kind of stuff. But you can't overlook it because I think we've learned when
you come under attack, which is a new thing with our elections, we are facing new things, not just from the political class, but just social media
and everything else. There's a lot of noise.
And once people feel like they're alone in this, and they don't have the help, and we're actually not all in this together, that's when it's easy to
walk away, and we need the good guys to stay on the field. We can't abandon, you know, our voting booths. We can't abandon this just because
it's been a little rocky.
And so, I mean, the really good news is that there's a lot of people with good intentions who want the good things to happen that keep this thing
going. And so, it's been really rewarding.
SREENIVASAN: We should point out to our audience that there has been no evidence of widespread voter fraud in the 2020 election. And I'm wondering,
you know, this is something -- this is a narrative that at least the Republican Party seems to continue to push, that it is almost, you know, a
foregone conclusion in the minds of some conservatives that this election will be stolen. Is there any evidence of that?
CARPENTER: No, absolutely not. But I think, you know, after we've been through this since 2016 and 2020, I do think people are largely wise to the
game, that this is political gamesmanship in a lot of respects. And the one bright point of light that I have seen is the -- I think the Republicans
going back to supporting the mail-in ballot.
In 2020, there was a lot of resistance to mail-in voting, which is a wonderful necessary option for people who cannot get to the polls on
election day, that might be because you're disabled and it might be because you have to work, it may be because you have two kids you got to take care
of at home and the prospect of dragging them to the booth to stand in line for eight hours is really too much to contemplate, or maybe you can't stand
in line for eight hours on election day, right? Like a lot of people are just not able to do that, let alone have the time to do it.
And so, I think there's recognition now that, yes, mail-in voting is a safe and secure option. And so, that's one point of progress.
SREENIVASAN: It seems that the attack by the former president on election workers and the institution of how board certify elections and so forth,
it's just kind of just one part of it. I mean, he has attacked the judiciary repeatedly when he finds judges taking decisions or looking at
things unfavorably towards him, right? And I wonder what do you think that does over time when we start to lose faith in institutions like what
secures our vote or the judiciary?
CARPENTER: Yes. I mean, this is a lot of the work that we do at Protect Democracy and talking about why a Trump second term really does pose an
authoritarian threat. And that's not just because of like policy differences, it really gets at the ways that Donald Trump and his allies
imagined in a second term of systematically gutting the checks and balances that constrain a presidency. And the reason why they're so focused on that
is that so that they can enact this authoritarian agenda.
And if you don't mind, I'll just walk through that really quickly because it's an argument that I talked to, like, a lot of my Republican friends
about, like, why this is different, why it's not just a matter of tax policy or something like that.
[13:50:00]
And in the way that the movement has now coalesced around a version of Trumpism that really advocates for aggressive, expanded executive power
hinges on gutting our checks and balances as envisioned by the constitution. And the top of which is the courts. And the thing that has
really -- a big, you know, concern, if not setback, is the Supreme Court's recent ruling that a president should enjoy immunity over official acts.
You know, TBD, what the official acts technically means. But in the meantime, it certainly means that there's not going to be clear
accountability for Trump for January 6th before the November election.
The next check on Trump 2.0 would be the Congress. And if you look at how Republicans seek to enable and cover up and encourage his behavior, at
least in the two impeachments for him that came to January 6th and his illegal holdup of the funding for Ukraine, you saw that Republicans in
Congress were not willing to act as a meaningful check on executive abuses of power.
And so, it's overly optimistic, to say the least, to think that somehow, they would change that behavior in a second Trump administration. And then
third, you see the plans that Donald Trump has, are also encouraged by his allies at the Heritage Foundation through things like Project 2025, to gut
the civil service.
That essentially, you hear about proposals like schedule F to go after any kind of career servants and replace them with loyalists. I mean, these are
people -- this is -- they're often described in a derogatory manner is the deep state. But these are people who like make FEMA work. And so, this goes
down a very bad road very quickly with deep downstream impacts if you do suddenly start wiping out the civil service and replacing them with
loyalists in ways that impact people that go beyond, you know, his promises of retribution to prosecute people and weaponize the Department of Justice.
SREENIVASAN: I wonder what are your concerns heading into this election? I mean, do you think that we will have a certified declared winner late into
the night, that night of elections that we've had kind of that experience over the years? But -- or do you think that this could be stalled and
delayed because of individuals on, you know, state election boards or somewhere else down the line?
CARPENTER: If we are vigilant, I am optimistic. I mean, the tradition is our country is that we do a hold safe, secure, fair elections where we have
clear winners. 2020 was a disruption of that. I mean, I'm not downplaying all the terrible things that happened, but the system did hold. And as a
result of this -- just the horrifying images we saw, the testimony from the brave capital and Washington D.C. police officers who continue to speak out
about the actual reality of what happened on that day, I really do believe a lot of people's eyes have opened.
They have reconsidered a lot of things about who they're going to vote for, you know, what -- how they may possibly participate in politics in the
future. And so, yes, there's good reason to be optimistic, but I wouldn't be working the job that I do today if I thought it was a sure thing. I
don't believe it's a sure thing.
I believe that we all have a role to play in this process. We have to be vigilant. We have to speak out and educate and uphold each other about what
it means to have a rule of law in our country and what kind of commitment it really takes from all of us to continue to make this great, beautiful
American experiment work.
SREENIVASAN: Amanda Carpenter from Protect Democracy, thanks so much for joining us.
CARPENTER: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And finally, tonight, 12 years missing but not forgotten. Today marks a heart-breaking milestone for Austin Tice, an American freelance
journalist who's presumed to be held captive in Syria. Tice was captured in Damascus in 2012, covering the civil war there for The Washington Post. His
parents have been tireless advocates, calling on the Biden administration to cooperate with the Syrian government to bring him home.
Shortly after his capture, I spoke with his parents and his mother told me why he undertook such dangers to give voice to the voiceless.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: What was he trying to show with his work? There were lots of pictures of children as well as pictures of the rebel forces he was with.
DEBRA TICE, MOTHER OF AUSTIN TICE: He was compelled to tell the story. This is their future. And he wants their story to be told. He wants them to
have their story and to believe. It's so important to Austin for people to have a dream and to believe they can achieve it and to take steps to do
that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[13:55:00]
AMANPOUR: Today, President Biden said that he stood in solidarity with Austin's family and called on the Syrian government to ensure his immediate
release. Fresh off the deal with Russia that freed another American journalist, Evan Gershkovich, of The Wall Street Journal, the president
said, the freedom of the press is essential. Adding, journalists like Austin play a critical role informing the public and holding those in power
accountable.
That's it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. Remember, you can always
catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thanks for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
