Return to Transcripts main page
Amanpour
Interview with INARA President and Founder Arwa Damon; Interview with University of Southern California Journalism Professor, Author and Broadcaster Afua Hirsch; Interview with The New York Times London Bureau Chief Mark Landler; Interview with "The Critic" Actor Ian McKellen. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired August 29, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. Polio hits Gaza for the first
time in 25 years, and Jeremy Diamond has a special report on the children who are suffering.
Plus, how the lack of even soap is costing lives there. Humanitarian aid worker Arwa Damon joins us from the ground.
And then, why the arrest of Russian Telegram founder Pavel Durov over accountability online. My conversation with New York Times London Bureau
Chief Mark Landler and writer broadcaster Afua Hirsch.
Also, ahead, from Shakespeare to The Lord of the Rings, legendary actor Ian McKellen has been firing up our screens and stages for decades. I speak to
him about his new film, The Critic.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
In the occupied West Bank, warnings of, quote, a severe shortage of drinking water, which sounds alarmingly like Gaza, but in cities targeted
by Israel's large-scale military operations there this week, the Palestinian Red Crescent Society says people are pleading for water and
basic supplies. Israel's military says it's killed five terrorists, including an Islamic Jihad commander, as the U.N. secretary general calls
for an immediate end to this operation in the West Bank.
In Gaza, the level of need is deepening by the day. The World Food Programme has halted deliveries there after it said one of its vehicles was
directly struck by gunfire whilst moving towards an IDF checkpoint. None of its employees were hurt.
And now, disease is the latest danger for people in Gaza. In June, six sewage samples taken from there tested positive for the polio virus. In
July, the World Health Organization warned that it was just a matter of time before the disease reached thousands of Palestinian children. And now,
it has, as CNN's Jeremy Diamond reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): 11-month-old Abdul Rahman is no longer the energetic baby he once was. He now sleeps
most of the day, gently rocked by his mother, who is still grappling with how quickly he went from feverish and vomiting, to partially paralyzed.
My child started to move and crawled at an early age, Naveen says, but suddenly everything went backwards. Suddenly, he was no longer crawling or
moving or able to stand on his feet or even sit.
Doctors delivered the devastating news earlier this month. Abdul Rahman has polio, the first known case in Gaza in 25 years.
It is a shock for a mother to hear such news. Now, he is lying here in the tent in these unhealthy conditions. There's no treatment, no capabilities,
and no supplements.
The course of Abdel Raham's life cruelly twisted by the war that started just weeks after he was born, leaving him vulnerable to malnutrition, dirty
drinking water, and missed vaccines. The fear now that Abdul Rahman could be the first of many.
DIAMOND: What is your plan to keep this one confirmed case from becoming an epidemic in the Gaza Strip.
SAM ROSE, DIRECTOR OF PLANNING, UNRWA: Absolutely. The plan is to start a vaccination campaign, a mass vaccination campaign involving all children
under 10. There are 640,000 children who needs to be reached. So, we need to reach about 95 percent of them.
DIAMOND (voice-over): 1.2 million vaccine doses have now arrived and thousands of U.N. staffers and volunteers are ready to inoculate Gaza's
children. The challenge will be getting the job done as the war rages on.
ROSE: It's a relatively easy vaccine to administer. It's dropped on tongues. It doesn't require needles. It doesn't require injections. It's
something that's relatively simple to do. The difficult part is everything else.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Gaza's health system has been devastated by nearly 11 months of war and global health officials are calling for a pause in the
fighting to distribute the vaccine.
Israeli authorities who launched the drive to vaccinate their troops last month haven't committed to that. But they say, quote, routine humanitarian
pauses will facilitate the inoculation drive.
[13:05:00]
In Central Gaza, Naveen fans the flies from her son's face. She is helpless to fight off the disease that now grips his small body.
Abdel Rahman needs treatment, she says, pleading with the world to take her son out of Gaza. She's still waiting for someone to answer her cry.
Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Tel Aviv.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Naveen's plea for help is one that echoes across Gaza with many needing supplies far more basic than vaccines. Former CNN war correspondent
Arwa Damon has been to the enclave three times during this war with her charity INARA. And she says that each trip reveals that there is, quote,
less aid and more need. I reached her this week from Deir el Bala on the Gaza coast.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Arwa Damon, welcome back to the program from Gaza.
ARWA DAMON, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, INARA: Thank you for having me on. Appreciate it.
AMANPOUR: Well, last time you were here, after one of your trips, you were here in the studio, and you said, essentially, you know, things just get
exponentially worse. I asked you last time how it was. What is it like this time compared to when you were last there?
DAMON: It's sorrow that is eclipsing any kind of sorrow I've seen before. It's misery beyond the scope of misery. It's less humanitarian assistance,
less ability to support those who are in need, and an increasingly growing population that extends to just about every single human being in this
wretched stretch of land who cannot cope with even the most basic of things.
Christiane, we international aid organizations and local ones have been reduced to trying to advocate for something as simple as a bar of soap.
AMANPOUR: Honestly, Arwa --
DAMON: Soap has become a luxury.
AMANPOUR: It's terrible to hear you say that, and I know you tweeted that. Just explain what you mean by that. And what difference in life and death
would soap make right now?
DAMON: So, the bare bones of it is that access to soap and the ability to maintain a certain level of hygiene reduces the spread of disease by 40
percent. What we are seeing right now is a significant increase in diseases like hepatitis A. I went down to Nasser Hospital and the head of the
pediatric department there told me that two children a week are dying just in that hospital because of hepatitis A.
It also means meningitis is spreading. It also means that this horrific skin disease called impetigo, which is especially prevalent in children and
highly contagious and can potentially be lethal because if left untreated, it can lead to kidney failure, which can lead to death is also all over the
place. These are all diseases that can be controlled, which in return would empty up bed space in these hospitals to be able to deal with the
catastrophic injuries that they're getting from the bomb blasts.
But there's no soap. We go into these camps and families are begging us for soap. What do they use instead of soap? Well, one family I spoke to said
that they were going down to the beach, getting sand, mixing it with a little bit of salt and lemon, and that's how they've been cleaning
themselves for the last five months.
So, if a ceasefire, which we've all been advocating for to be able to get more humanitarian aid in, obviously, hasn't materialized for the last 10
months, we are now trying to simplify it down to soap.
AMANPOUR: Oh, my goodness, Arwa. I mean, that's really awful to hear you say that. And I just need to say because there's a report that actually
where you are, I think, near Deir al Balah, right, there's -- the coast there is apparently showing up all brown and murky because of massive
sewage spills. So, these people are going there also to try to get clean, but there's not even clean seawater.
DAMON: And, Christiane, what people don't realize when they hear about evacuation orders is, yes, we are very familiar with that horrendous image
of people just carrying what they can, but each evacuation order impacts organization's ability to distribute and produce safe, clean water.
So, the most recent evacuation orders over the last two weeks from Deir al Balah and Khan Younis reduced the population's access to clean water by 70
percent. So, that has already had an impact on what people are going through. But if we extrapolate beyond that and look at what's happening in
the ICUs, I was in the ICU at Al Aqsa Hospital, there's a 13-year-old boy with severe burn injuries. He is in the ICU because he has a blood
infection and signs of early sepsis because there weren't enough bandages to be able to keep his wounds properly clean. There's a little year and a
half old girl who is not stabilizing from her catastrophic injuries because the small piece of plastic called a tracheotomy or something is not
available in her size.
Now, we were luckily able to secure some for her and deliver them to the hospital. But if this little girl wakes up, Christiane, she's going to wake
up and find out that she's an orphan.
[13:10:00]
AMANPOUR: Oh, no. Oh, this is just so awful We hear about the huge number of children who have become orphans. We also hear a polio reported for the
first time in 25 years in the Gaza Strip. Apparently, a 10-month-old baby was partially paralyzed.
I don't know whether you've been able to hear from the other humanitarians, the U.N., but apparently, they're trying to start, even in the midst of
this war and destruction, of a polio vaccine program. Is that possible?
DAMON: Yes, they have to. And, you know, there is movement in terms of, you know, getting a cold chain in, getting the vaccine in, and training of
people to be able to deliver the vaccine. The plan is on the table, but the plan absolutely, 100 percent, cannot be implemented unless there is some
sort of a pause in the fighting that is taking place. And if that pause does not happen and if polio starts to spread, we are going to start seeing
and hearing more and more horrific stories of more and more children ending up paralyzed of something that, again, is completely preventable.
I do not have the words to begin to describe just how hard it is to provide people with even the most basic of items because things are not available.
I just came back from a fresh vegetable distribution to a couple of the shelters that we work with, some of the families -- and we purchased this
locally, by the way, because aid isn't really moving in, but commercial trucks are. We purchased some of these items at 20 times their original
price.
Either -- it doesn't matter because these families had not eaten a fresh vegetable for anywhere from five months. And then at best, one month was
the last time they had fresh vegetables.
AMANPOUR: Arwa, listen, I mean, is the fighting worse now than it was two, three, four months ago? I mean, the Israelis seem to say they're busy
degrading Hamas. They're in this ceasefire, hostage swap negotiations. And yet, as you say, aid is not getting in. And I mean, we can quote also, this
week, the U.N. said humanitarian efforts ground to a halt because of new Israeli evacuation orders. The International Rescue Committee also had to
stop aid during these evacuation orders.
I mean, it's getting worse. The International Community says it's trying to get aid in, but you're saying it's practically at a trickle at best.
DAMON: It's less than a trickle. It's like that tiny little drop that barely comes out of the faucet. And we also had to suspend our usual sort
of programs and activities for a few days because two of our staff and five of the shelters that we work with were under evacuation orders. And I
myself have, you know, moved around a couple of times in the last two weeks that I've been here.
The problem we have with aid is the same as what it was two months ago, but significantly worse. We cannot access the aid that Israel permits to enter
Kerem Shalom because the route that Israel designates for us to use to get that aid is basically run by looters and criminal gangs. And Israel is not
securing that route, nor is it providing us with alternate routes.
There are alternates that exist. We can use what's known as the fence route, where in theory Israel had at one point stated that it would allow
40 trucks to go through there, mostly trucks carrying medicine and fuel. These days, on a lucky day, and it's not even daily, you're getting about
18 trucks moving through there.
Items that get into the north, through Eres, right now. So, that soap I've been talking about, those hygiene kits, they actually do get into the
northern part of Gaza. But we are not permitted to move them from the north to the south. So, we can't even scale up what's being sent through the
north.
AMANPOUR: Why?
DAMON: They will not give us a straight answer. We do not get straight answers as to why we cannot properly move aid from the south. So, for
example, fresh vegetables, because we have them down here, we can buy them and send them to the north, nor are we allowed to move what gets into the
north, hygiene kits, down for the population in the south.
AMANPOUR: It just boggles the mind. Can I ask you to tell me, with your reporter's eye, what it's like to constantly have these evacuation orders?
You know, we hear it all these thousands of miles away, and we expect people to be walking with, you know, a mixture of their feet, maybe a cart
or two, maybe a donkey, a horse, whatever, but it's much bigger than that, right? I mean, schools and shelters and hospitals, all of that has to be
evacuated as well.
DAMON: And warehouses that store what the little aid that has actually managed to get in and is still at a warehouse and the water desalination
plants go offline. The solid waste sewage system goes offline.
[13:15:00]
I mean, it impacts every single aspect of everything that humanitarian organizations are trying to set up, not to mention, like when that
evacuation order comes down, you get these waves of panic that just flood through the population. And so, when the shelters that we work with came
under evacuation order, we were calling every single, you know, bus driver, truck driver, any kind of transportation to be able to send to these
people. Keeping in mind though that, you know, if you call a truck driver and he's 15 minutes away, that road actually takes him about four hours to
get.
So, we tried to secure transportation. People also walked. Then they go to a location where they think they might be able to put up a tent, if they
still have one, but they're not able to do that because it's either full or they're not being permitted because that land is owned by somebody. So,
then they have to move again and again and again. And so, you end up with entire families who are on the street for days on end because they can't
find a place to settle down.
And then, once a family settles down, they need to figure out, once again, where's my flour coming from? Where is my food parcel coming from? Where am
I getting, you know, any kind of water for my children? How do I access medicine if my child needs medicine? Where do I get electricity from? And
so, you have this shredding of society and of people and of emotion that is happening at every single level.
I mean, I am shocked that more people haven't completely lost their minds. And I'll share one story that I heard when I was actually in Cairo. I met a
little girl there and she was in her mother's arms when the bomb hit, and her mother's body saved her. Her mother died. She and her brother survived.
However, she is in Cairo in the custody of her aunt because her father, even though he's still alive, he's not there. He doesn't remember his own
name. He doesn't remember that he has children.
Every single person I meet here, the first or second sentence out of their mouth is, we can't take this anymore.
AMANPOUR: I was going to ask you about how people are coping, the mental health, contending with everything that they're going through, and you've
just laid it out. I mean, it's -- I mean, I ask you again, have you ever seen anything in all your reporting life that compares to this?
DAMON: No, no, nothing that comes even close, because even if we look at other sort of similar examples, so, you know, say the numerous times that
the Assad regime and the Russians besieged neighborhoods in Syria, there was always a tunnel that was, you know, a risky, but it was a way out.
If we look at, you know, ISIS taking over Mosul, there was also a way out. If we look at the offensive against Mosul, if you survived that bombing
campaign and that military advancement, you were in a zone that was safe. But none of that exists here.
The other thing I haven't seen, Christiane, in my entire career, and I'd be curious if you had, is a space where humanitarian organizations are on the
ground in the same level that we are on the ground here in Gaza, but we're not able to get aid to the people.
AMANPOUR: I mean, I obviously saw it a bit in Bosnia when the enclaves were besieged and the Bosnian Serbs refused entry into Srebrenica and the
others, but not at this level that we're seeing right now. How do you cope? You've been there several times. This time, it's two weeks. You've sent us,
you know, some moments of joy that you tried to, I assume, spread for those who you can reach, but also for yourself. And we're showing a video of you
with the kids and face painting, et cetera. How do you cope?
DAMON: I mean, there's -- your heart breaks every single day and you just try to hold it together so that, you know, when you do break you're out
because when you're here as someone who has the luxury of being able to leave, your anger and your pain and your heartbreak is not going to help
the people. So, you have no choice but to try to stay, you know, as upbeat, as joking, as giving as you possibly can.
But I'll be honest with you, Christiane, you know, the other day I got back to the guest house. I went into the bathroom and I was sobbing.
AMANPOUR: Yes. Well, it's really hard and you're doing an amazing job as always. Arwa, thank you. Keep it up.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Really difficult testimonial. And we'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:20:00]
AMANPOUR: Welcome back. And we turn now to the arrest in Paris of Pavel Durov, the Russian-born entrepreneur who founded the popular messaging
platform Telegram. French authorities allege that Durov's platform is complicit in aiding money launderers, drug traffickers, and the spread of
child pornography.
Writer and broadcaster Afua Hirsch and the New York Times London bureau chief Mark Landler join me here in the studio to discuss this and other
headlines.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back, both of you, to the program. I'd like to start with something that's been water cooler talk pretty much all week. Pavel
Durov, the head of the Telegram online site, arrested, now under formal investigation, $5 million bail, he cannot leave France, he's a citizen of
France, and accused of misusing his platform. Can I first ask what you think about this? What do you think about this moment of accountability?
AFUA HIRSCH, JOURNALISM PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, AUTHOR AND BROADCASTER: I think there are some really important facts to
bear in mind. The agency that arrested him is the French agency that deals with exploitation and sexual abuse of children. So, these are really
serious allegations. These aren't that there is general nefarious behavior on Telegram, it's the crimes that I think we can all agree need to be
policed and for which people need to be held accountable are taking place with no access to law enforcement on Telegram. That's a very serious
allegation and when I think we should be very careful to dismiss.
Obviously, this is being linked to a bigger question about the accountability of tech founders for what happens on their platform. But the
reality is, at the moment, nobody is being held responsible for all of the bad actors who have a free reign to use these platforms. Now, as a
journalist. I'm not at all dismissive of the importance of having secure ways to talk to people. I'm sure we've all spoken to sources in countries
that rely on platforms like Telegram, the only place they feel safe from their governments to express dissent and share information. So, that's a
really important value.
But I think when we start to conflate the importance of free speech with criminal activity, it becomes dangerous.
AMANPOUR: And that's really the point. And, Mark, you know, Elon Musk of X has famously tweeted in the aftermath this, should I worry about going to
France? Should Mark Zuckerberg and the others worry? Of course, in the United States, the tech bros, so to speak, the tech chiefs do regularly get
hauled in front of Congress. And they do say they're trying to do their best.
What do you think the tech industry should be thinking right now? The -- you know, the CEOs who are clearly being called publishers and not just
platforms.
MARK LANDLER, LONDON BUREAU CHIEF, THE NEW YORK TIMES: I think that it's a potentially a kind of a landmark moment for them and one that they are
going to have to take very seriously because it really represents the first time they're being held personally, criminally liable in a way that they
haven't been before. And the French may be sort of on the leading edge of this, but this same debate and the same movement toward this is happening
in other countries, including in the U.K., for example, in the case of the role that social media played in accelerating and fomenting some of the
riots that happened here over the summer.
AMANPOUR: Including Telegram, by the way.
[13:25:00]
LANDLER: Indeed, indeed. And the prime minister here, Keir Starmer, has not yet said something like this, but he has sort of inched in that
direction, saying that publishers, social media platforms are responsible for the conduct -- of the content that they host. And so, I think that
should Elon Musk worry about being arrested the next time he goes to France? It's not an inconceivable notion.
AMANPOUR: You talk about Keir Starmer, and you have written an article about how Keir Starmer and the Democrats perhaps have stuff in common. You
likened it back to the Clinton-Blair years, the famous third way. How do you see that right now?
LANDLER: Well, I think what's interesting about the parallel between the U.K. and the U.S. right now is that you have, in both countries, a former
federal prosecutor, former chief prosecutor here, turned politician, a figure who was perhaps more to the left of the spectrum and has kind of
pulled a little bit more to the center in the person of Starmer and Kamala Harris, and they are campaigning in a similar environment with a very sort
of lively populist movement, reform U.K. here, Donald Trump in the United States, where real questions of law and order are coming under pressure,
and that links it to what we were just talking about.
And so, one of the questions, for example, is Keir Starmer, within weeks of getting into government, faced these very dangerous riots, he clamped down
on them hard. Some on the left might argue too hard, but in a true law and order, defending the rule of law.
If Kamala Harris were to beat Donald Trump in a very narrow election, there's every chance that the U.S. could face that kind of unrest. So, the
question is, would Kamala Harris take a page out of Keir Starmer's book in the way she dealt with it as a former prosecutor?
AMANPOUR: And, Afua, I want to ask you about Gaza, because actually some - - we quoted in your article, one of the MPs lost his seat, Labour, because of the Labour position on Gaza. And we've just seen -- and I'll read you a
little bit of an excerpt of an op-ed in The New York Times, saying that, Kamala needs a reset on Gaza, talking about the context in which they find
themselves. Palestinian Americans and their allies are bringing a context to this election. They carry a hope for ending Palestinian oppression that
feels almost futile, but irresponsible to abandon, and a memory that extends past a few glitzy weeks.
What do you think they have to do?
HIRSCH: I think that actually there's a difference of material, a difference here between Keir Starmer and Kamala Harris. I mean, I totally
agree with your analysis, but when I was a barrister, I was in Keir Starmer's chambers. He was one of the reasons I joined that chamber. It's
famous for human rights work, for protecting international humanitarian law, for fighting against war crimes, genocide. And that is his background
before he became a prosecutor.
It makes the fact that during the election campaign in the U.K., he took quite pro-Israeli stance, relatively speaking, all the more remarkable,
because I think people had an expectation that he would be prioritizing the lives of civilians in Gaza, of whom, you know, tens of thousands have died
as a result of this war.
So, I think what we saw in the U.K. is a kind of normalization of the idea that Israel's right to protect itself was an acceptable -- that an
acceptable price to pay for that was the deaths in Gaza. Now, it's even less surprising with Kamala Harris because her background is more as a
centrist, more as a prosecutor and more as part of the Biden administration that was very pro-Israel.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And you can watch our full conversation this Saturday on The Amanpour Hour. Ahead on this show, a dark turn in election fake news. Then,
later on, we look at a career spanning over 60 years, from Gandalf in "Lord of the Rings" to just about every one of Shakespeare's leads. My
conversation with acting royalty, Sir Ian McKellen.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:30:00]
AMANPOUR: Now, as the race to the White House ramps up, social media feeds become key battlegrounds. Arenas for disinformation and conspiracy theories
to spread. CNN, in collaboration with the Center for Information Resilience, has uncovered fake accounts on X that have stolen the images
and faces of several European fashion influencers to promote pro-Trump agendas. Katie Poldlaize reports now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KATIE POLGLASE, CNN INVESTIGATIVE PRODUCER (voice-over): Debbie is heading home from work in Luxembourg, Northern Europe crossing the border into
Germany. She races back to her son. And of course, Lou. But Debbie's day doesn't end there. She's also a professional model. Her image not only her
identity, but her source of income helping support her and her son. But it's been stolen used in a pro-Trump account on X attracting nearly 30,000
followers in less than six months.
POLGLASE: Here's Luna.
DEBBIE NEDERLOF, MODEL AND SOCIAL MEDIA MANAGER: Yes. That's very crazy.
POLGLASE: And when you see these views, you know, it's saying vote for Trump in 2024, what's your reaction?
NEDERLOF: My -- to be honest, what the -- was my reaction, that was my reaction. Because I have nothing to do with the United States with Trump,
the political things over there.
POLGLASE: And if people following this account believe that this is you, what do you want to say to them?
NEDERLOF: That it's definitely not me. Definitely, it was never me and it will never be me and they have to unfollow, please.
POLGLASE: In fact, Debbie is not alone in partnership with the Center for Information Resilience CNN found nearly 60 fake Trump supporting accounts
and from these we identified nearly a dozen women, real women from across Europe, from Denmark, to the Netherlands and as far away as Russia whose
identities are being used in accounts telling voters, American voters to vote for Trump in the upcoming U.S. election.
POLGLASE (voice-over): Let's take a look at some of these accounts like Alina, 33, and voting for Trump. But she's not. She's really Kamilla from
Denmark.
KAMILLA BROBERG, INFLUENCER: I think it's weird anything that can discriminate other people on my account because it's my little universe, I
don't think it's fair.
POLGLASE (voice-over): And this one Eva, she even has a verified blue tick which is supposed to weed out fake accounts.
NERIAH TELLERUP, INFLUENCER: You feel very taken advantage of, also because it's kind of my image. I don't want to think people think that I do
what those profiles sometimes are promoting.
POLGLASE (voice-over): We ran the suspicious X photos through a reverse image search engine and found they were lifted from Instagram posts.
Certain patterns emerged. The fake accounts repost each other. It's a sign of a coordinated campaign.
Here, several of the fake accounts post the exact same wording, if you're voting for the man who survived an assassination attempt, I want to follow
you. It's another sign the accounts are linked. And that's not all, some of the accounts manipulated the images of these women. Have a look at Debbie's
post, the original on Instagram and now the fake one on X. Her hat now reads, make America great again. Look at this t-shirt, before and then
Trump 2024.
[13:35:00]
For now, we don't know who is behind all these accounts. But the former U.S. National Security Council spokeswoman who also used to investigate
fake accounts for Twitter told us this?
EMILY HORNE, FORMER GLOBAL HEAD OF POLICY, TWITTER: I don't think it's unreasonable to ask questions about could there be a state actor involved.
We know that there are multiple state actors who have been using social media to try to sow disinformation campaigns in the run-up to the 2024
election.
POLGLASE (voice-over): But regardless, the accounts are reaching influential politicians. Doug Mastriano, a Republican state senator for
Pennsylvania, follows Debbie's fake account. CNN contacted the senator about the account, but has not heard back.
Back in Germany, Debbie is shocked and upset that her image is being used in this way. With President Trump now back on X, and Elon Musk, the owner
of X, throwing his weight behind him, fake pro-Trump content appears to be flourishing. Silencing the real women affected.
Once again, women's rights at the very heart of this presidential election.
Katie Polglase, CNN, Trier, Germany.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And now, we've got an update on our main story, the fears of a full-blown outbreak of polio in Gaza. The World Health Organization has
just announced that there is a, quote, preliminary commitment to humanitarian pauses in Gaza in the coming days to allow for polio
vaccinations to be distributed. The WHO expects to begin on September 1st and take three days to roll out these vaccines. Obviously, we'll have more
details when they become available.
And when we come back, my interview with the critically acclaimed actor Sir Ian McKellen and why he decided to turn the tables in his new film, "The
Critic."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back. Now, to a legend of the stage and screen. Ian McKellen is probably best known for playing Gandalf in "Lord of the Rings,"
but he is first and foremost a theatre actor. After decades of being on the receiving end of reviews, he's turning the tables.
In his new film "The Critic," McKellen plays a scathing newspaper columnist in the 1930s. And after his job comes under threat, he lures a struggling
actress into a honey trap blackmailing scheme.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From your secret admirer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look, he's crying.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Viscount Brooke. Powerful, rich, but catastrophically married.
IAN MCKELLAN, ACTOR, "THE CRITIC": I have something delicate to discuss.
Do me a little service. I want you to please him. And in return, you'll gain my unyielding favor. All that's required to make you a star.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Ian McKenna, join me here this week in the studio.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Ian McKellen, welcome back to our program.
MCKELLEN: It's very nice to be with you.
[13:40:00]
AMANPOUR: Listen, I hate to acknowledge, but you just had a prang. I mean, you fell off the stage in "The Player Kings."
MCKELLEN: Yes
AMANPOUR: How are you feeling?
MCKELLEN: Recovering. The last time we talked, you wormed out to me what my next job was going to be, which was to play Falstaff, Sir John Falstaff.
Shakespeare's iconic character in an adaptation of the plays in which he is in Shakespeare. And here we are at the end of that run, which for me ended
when I fell off the stage. It was a bit more dramatic than that. There was a lot of -- in the battle scenes, a lot of rubbish, garbage thrown onto the
stage, including old newspapers and bits of old chair. And one evening, I got my foot caught in a bit of chair.
AMANPOUR: In a bit of a chair.
MCKELLEN: And -- yes. And kicking it off, the other foot like a skateboard, glided across the stage, inevitably toward the audience. I
could see it happening. I thought it was the end of -- I didn't know what, but it was the end. And as I landed on someone in the front row, I heard
myself screaming, help me, help me.
AMANPOUR: Really?
MCKELLEN: I'm sorry, that was the next thing I said. And the third thing I said, where did this come from? I don't do this. That's what I shouted to
the audience as they left the theatre. But, you know, everybody trips. We all trip. It's only when you get into your 80s that it becomes dangerous.
AMANPOUR: What can I say? I was going to say that, which is probably what gave you the fear, the amount of fear that you had. Anyway, here you are,
in fine fettle.
MCKELLEN: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Probably a little bit pain still, and promoting a new film.
MCKELLEN: Yes.
AMANPOUR: "The Critic."
MCKELLEN: Yes.
AMANPOUR: What is it about this film that attracted you? Because, you know, from full staff to this film critic, Jimmy Erskine, who's a pretty,
as they said in one in one review, waspish fellow.
MCKELLEN: That's putting it mildly. What made me do it? A letter with the script from the person who'd written it, Patrick Marber, a great
playwright, and I'd worked on a film with him before. And he said, this is the best part I've ever written. I hope you'll want to do it. But if
somebody says that about their own work, you feel almost obliged to join it.
AMANPOUR: And do you agree?
MCKELLEN: And it's a fantastic part. And then, I was thrilled because Mark Strong, who's I've known since he was a lad as an actor and I've watched
his career develop, is there playing a big part. And Gemma Arterton and Lesley Manville.
AMANPOUR: They are an incredible cast.
MCKELLEN: I mean, superb cast.
AMANPOUR: It is an incredible cast.
MCKELLEN: And we have a good old time. Yes, it's about a critic in the time when newspaper critics had a huge amount of power before, say, the
decline of the newspapers and the growth of online criticism from anybody. Critics could make or break a career overnight. And Jimmy Erskine is such a
man.
And because he wants to use a young actress to seduce somebody who he wants to get into trouble, my god.
AMANPOUR: Oh, my god. There's so many --
MCKELLEN: It's too much of the plot.
AMANPOUR: Yes. So, I'm going to play -- because you mentioned Mark Strong's character. He becomes the proprietor of this newspaper upon his
father's death.
MCKELLEN: Right.
AMANPOUR: So, you see one coffin going and it's his father's and then you come, you know, to a meeting with this guy. But at this point, he is
telling you off, essentially. He's trying to get you to stop being so acerbic in your killer criticism.
MCKELLEN: Right.
AMANPOUR: And this is the clip that we've chosen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Warning, hold your breath as you pass the Duke's Theatre, for here is untreated theatrical sewage. A play of elemental
passion has been reduced to the scale of a sodden sock.
MCKELLEN: Well, it's my responsibility to discourage our readers, wasting their wages on tripe.
MARK STRONG, ACTOR, "THE CRITIC": Never mind all that. We're discussing the extremity of your style.
MCKELLEN: But that's why people read me. I -- with the -- and I effuse. The proud tradition of this paper established by your dear father.
STRONG: Yes, I know he was fond of you. He was also fond of Sir Oswald Mosley.
MCKELLEN: You can't compare me with him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: You're very affronted, because obviously Sir Oswald Mosley was the head of the fascists, the black shirts in the '30s.
MCKELLEN: And Jimmy is gay, at a time when -- in the U.K. it was illegal to practice anything.
AMANPOUR: Which you are as well, and we're going to get to that. But first, I want to get through the storyline, because it's very important
that.
MCKELLEN: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Do you think critics have too much power?
MCKELLEN: I don't think they have any power these days.
AMANPOUR: No, but then?
[13:45:00]
MCKELLEN: Then? Yes, and I've always had an easy time with critics, because they get to know you. You do a number of plays and if you give a
performance they approve of, then they're rather on your side. They look forward to the next thing you do. They're inclined to watch you.
AMANPOUR: And you obviously had that, because people really love you.
MCKELLEN: Well, I did have some absolutely stunning reviews and they were extremely helpful.
AMANPOUR: And have you had some really bad reviews?
MCKELLEN: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And how do you cope with that?
MCKELLEN: But I'm not going to tell you what they were.
AMANPOUR: All right. But how do you cope with them?
MCKELLEN: Well, you remember that critics are not writing for the actors, they're writing for the audience. Their audience.
AMANPOUR: So, that's to answer that question, which I wonder whether you then internalized during this, or you're such a good actor that you didn't
mind being really dastardly, really mean to this one actress, Nina Land. And at one point, she -- and she's playing by Gemma Arterton. She comes up
to you and has the courage to actually confront you as the critic, and I'm going to play that.
MCKELLEN: Oh, good. Good.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEMMA ARTERTON, ACTRESS, "THE CRITIC": I want an apology.
MCKELLEN: For expressing my opinion?
ARTERTON: For the manner of its expression. The rudeness, the disrespect.
MCKELLEN: One of my many solemn duties is to entertain the reader.
ARTERTON: At my expense?
MCKELLEN: Well, it's not just you, is it? I write, what, half a million words a year. Oh, mea culpa, if twelve of them offended you.
ARTERTON: Over the last 10 years, you've compared me to livestock, creatures of the sea, and an extinct bird. You've said my voice is fluting,
grating, girlish, and manly. You've described me as plump and emaciated. Which is it, damn you? Last season, her Mrs. Elvsted is glamorous but
ungainly. She doesn't seem to know how to walk. How to walk? You've been dishing it out to me for a decade, and now it's going to stop.
MCKELLEN: Oh, are you retiring?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: I mean, that is a great line. But she -- I mean, she really took the bull by the horns.
MCKELLEN: She's a great actor.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
MCKELLEN: I've not worked with her before. She is, and is going to be -- she gets the parts. World beating, I think.
AMANPOUR: To the point here, and you sort of mentioned it when we started, she becomes your vehicle to try to pull a fast one or whatever on the
proprietor.
MCKELLEN: That's right.
AMANPOUR: Because you have been caught in what they call back then an immoral lewd act.
MCKELLEN: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Kissing your male secretary, who is your boyfriend, your lover living with you.
MCKELLEN: Yes, yes.
AMANPOUR: And you were afraid you were going to lose your job. So, this is then you going into this attempt to get Nina Land to do this deal for you.
MCKELLEN: Yes, right.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCKELLEN: I ask you to do me a little service. And in return, you will gain my unyielding favor. I'm making reviews. Reclaim. The actress of her
generation. And we might start with an interview for my backstage whisper's column. And my chum, Stephen (ph), will photograph you. Only the best for
Nina. And there'll be parties, gatherings, entrees, dinners, all that's required to make you a star. Everything you crave and deserve. An immortal
has the stage and screen.
ARTERTON: I can't do it. It's not me.
MCKELLEN: It's a part. It's not you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The film, the actual tale of the film, that's when it starts really heading into very dark and mean and deadly territory.
MCKELLEN: Yes. Yes, I -- it's a slightly melodramatic story, but the 1930s was pretty melodramatic time, wasn't it? In politics and everything else,
and social attitudes. And this story is very firmly rooted in that period.
AMANPOUR: What --
MCKELLEN: And I think the acting measures up to it. And we don't quite act with the naturalism that we would do if it was a story about today. There's
something just a little bit distanced, a little bit odd and strange. And that's right.
AMANPOUR: And again, I said that you're basically fighting for your life and not to be arrested as well, because you are gay at that time.
MCKELLEN: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And, you know, you have said, and I'm going to quote a little bit, you know, when you came out in 1988, almost overnight everything in my
life changed for the better. My relationships with people, my whole attitude towards acting changed. You said you began noticing difference in
your work. So, this is a lot -- it's a bit art imitating life, this plot.
[13:50:00]
MCKELLEN: Well, there is a connection, absolutely, yes.
AMANPOUR: So, how did it change for you?
MCKELLEN: It changed -- I think one of the reasons I became an actor with such enthusiasm was that it was a -- I could escape the real world where my
sexuality was a hindrance to normality. And so, my acting had become about not deceit not display, but disguise.
Once I came out, don't care who knows, happy to talk about it, my acting became about revelation, about discovery, about going for the truth of the
matter and feeling it deeply. Well, that's a better way to act than the former.
And as for friends and new friends and old friends, not turning a hair, and family saying, thank God you've told us at last. We had been wanting to
talk about it and we thought you didn't want to. All that went. And yes, my life changed. Absolutely. I was born again. Yes.
You know, people said they're born-again Christians. I'm a born-again gay man. Yes.
AMANPOUR: And as you said, it opened you up to, you know, expressing more emotions than you used to do before and doing that naturally.
MCKELLEN: I've found it easier to absolutely commit to emotions, because I wasn't hiding anything anymore.
AMANPOUR: Do you ever get caught up in the current debate where sometimes people say, oh, you can only play X character if you are X? The director of
your film particularly said -- Anand Tucker, says that he thinks that your knowledge obviously of what you're living really shaped your performance. I
don't subscribe to the idea that you need to be gay to play a gay part. Do you agree?
MCKELLEN: Yes, I do. And more than you have to be straight to play a straight part, because if that were the rule, if that were accepted, I
couldn't play Macbeth, I couldn't play Yaga, I couldn't play Richard III, I couldn't play Falstaff, all these straight guys.
AMANPOUR: Or Gandalf.
MCKELLEN: Gandalf's very special. I don't think he's very interested in sex. He's 7,000 years old. You know, eventually you put things aside. No,
but exactly. So, no, I think that is a nonsense.
AMANPOUR: Because a lot of people say --
MCKELLEN: Now, where it is not a nonsense is if a straight actor is playing a gay man and in his acting, criticizes the gayness within the
character or does something which is just simply outrageously obvious.
AMANPOUR: Cheesy.
MCKELLEN: Cheesy. And I think the same would be true if a non-Jew were playing a Jew or -- you've just got to be very careful. But, there
shouldn't be a rule that you can't play. I mean, all Shakespeare's women were played by men.
AMANPOUR: Exactly.
MCKELLEN: They were written to be played by men. So, when people say, why do women want to play men's parts? Well, why shouldn't they?
AMANPOUR: Are you going to be in the next -- is there another "Lord of the Rings"? Is there --
MCKELLEN: There are going to be. Yes.
AMANPOUR: And is Gandalf in them?
MCKELLEN: Yes, he is.
AMANPOUR: And are you going to be Gandalf?
MCKELLEN: Well, I think I'll have to read the script.
AMANPOUR: OK.
MCKELLEN: But I can't think of anything I would enjoy more than to go back to New Zealand. Perhaps not for three or four years this time, but just a
shorter period.
AMANPOUR: Do you ever --
MCKELLEN: Because I do miss New Zealand.
AMANPOUR: Do you ever think -- you're 84 I think, right? How old are you?
MCKELLEN: I think I'm 85.
AMANPOUR: 85.
MCKELLEN: Yes.
AMANPOUR: OK. You've fallen off the stage. You're doing so much work. You're still -- you know, you know, you're hale and hearty and all in one
piece. Do you ever think of retiring?
MCKELLEN: No. No, I feel sorry for people who look forward to retirement. What are they going to do? Garden? Travel? Yes, I'm sure you can have a
good time. No, I -- if I'm not working, I get bored and get antsy. I think I wasn't put onto this Earth to sit around and read books.
AMANPOUR: Do you have a dream role? Any more dream roles?
MCKELLEN: No, just to work with wonderful people. And if someone -- a wonderful director says, there's a part for you here, I'm inclined to say,
yes, good, thank you. Yes.
[13:55:00]
But it's obvious that I can't -- that theatre is a young man's game, really. You have to be fighting fit. And if it's a large part, even more
strong willed and determined, well, I've got that, but then sometimes the body lets you down.
AMANPOUR: It was just a slip.
MCKELLEN: But until it does, until my knees go and the brain goes, I can't remember the words or something.
AMANPOUR: Well, clearly, you can remember all your words.
MCKELLEN: I guess I'm all right in that regard.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
MCKELLEN: But you know, one day it will happen and it'll be an enforced retirement. But the idea of going to live in the countryside somewhere and
be out of it and forget, no, I want to be -- in the sick of it.
AMANPOUR: It's the movie set for you. It's the boards in the theater for you. And we hope to have you back here again soon.
MCKELLEN: Lovely.
AMANPOUR: Thank you, Ian McKellen. Thank you.
MCKELLEN: Lovely to see you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Every performance is a great performance. And "The Critic" is out in movie theatres on September 13th.
And finally, painting the town red, literally, with tomatoes. Some 22,000 revelers in Eastern Spain did just that in the annual Tomatina Festival.
150 tons of ripe pear tomatoes were flung, squashed, squelched in the streets of Bunol during an hour-long food fight.
Supposedly, the tradition began accidentally in 1945 when a brawl broke out during a parade and a nearby vegetable stand became the armory. Look at
that.
That's it for now. Thanks for watching. Goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
