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Amanpour
Interview with Spain Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez; Interview with German Prime Minister Annalena Baerbock; Interview with Mayor of Dearborn, Michigan Abdullah Hammoud. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired September 25, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
With the Middle East war spiraling out of control, we hear from Iran's Vice President Javad Zarif. And I speak to him. to Spain's prime minister, Pedro
Sanchez, about whether western leaders can actually do anything about this widening conflict.
Then, as the Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy urges support for his victory plan, Germany's foreign minister joins me for a candid conversation
on Ukraine and the wider Middle East.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABDULLAH HAMMOUD, MAYOR OF DEARBORN, MICHIGAN: How would you approach a resident who had lost 70, 80 plus family members and tell them, regardless
of what you've lost, the choice is between two, and you must still cast your ballot one way or the other?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The Lebanese-American mayor of Dearborn, Michigan, Abdullah Hammoud, sits down with Michel Martin about the growing dissatisfaction
among Arab and Muslim voters here.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour at the United Nations in New York, where world leaders continue to gather and call for
peace after a new round of escalation between Israel and Hezbollah.
Israel says it's intercepted this missile as it approached Tel Aviv. This is Hezbollah's deepest strike ever into Israel. The Iranian-backed group
says it was targeting the intelligence agency, Mossad. Now, Israel is calling up reserve brigades in the surest sign yet of a potential impending
ground invasion.
And with more than 90,000 people displaced in Lebanon, there are growing fears the conflict could escalate. Could widen into a regional war. Iran's
current vice president for strategic affairs is Javad Zarif. And some might remember him as the former foreign minister who negotiated the nuclear deal
with the west. And I asked him about this growing conflict.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Tell me, is Iran going to get dragged into the current Hezbollah Israel fight?
MOHAMMAD JAVAD ZARIF, IRANIAN VICE PRESIDENT FOR STRATEGIC AFFAIRS: Well, as you have noticed over the past 11 months, the Israelis have tried really
hard to drag others into the war because what happened was an end to these really claim or illusion of invincibility. And they thought that by --
either by increasing the violence, atrocities, war crimes, whatever, crimes against humanity, they could restore that aura of invincibility of Israel.
And by dragging others into the conflict, they could expand the war, probably bring the United States in and change the dynamics of the
situation. Everybody in the region understood that and has tried, while supporting the people in Gaza, who've been under, basically, the most
inhumane system of warfare mankind has ever seen to avoid falling into the trap of the Israelis.
And Hezbollah has done a great deal of self-restraint over the past 11 months. But now, the Israelis are crossing the line, in my view, and there
is every prospect of the world getting more difficult to contain. And I think the International Community has to do whatever it can as soon, as
possible, in order to end this most recent escalation by Israel.
AMANPOUR: Some of the International Community, not only Israel, but the United States and others say, well, yes, but also Iran is backing
Hezbollah, and Iran has its own responsibility to de-escalate. So, you said that you didn't want to fall into any Israeli trap, but things are getting
worse. Could you -- is there a red line that would bring Iran into this war?
ZARIF: Iran has exercised restraint when Israel conducted military operations against Iran, conducted terrorist operations, killing the leader
of Hamas who was attending the inauguration of our president of all things and we exercise restraint. We believe that Hezbollah is capable of
defending itself. It has been exercising restraint in not doing so.
[13:05:00]
It is the responsibility of the International Community to come in before Hezbollah has to take its defense into its own hands and maybe the
situation will get out of hand at that time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And as the vice president noted, things are in fact getting worse. And with hopes for a ceasefire all but faded, other countries have
taken a different approach. Including Spain, which this year recognized the State of Palestine. And just last week, the Palestinian Authority President
Mahmoud Abbas was welcomed in Madrid by the Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez, who's joining me now. Welcome back to our program.
PEDRO SANCHEZ, SPANISH PRIME MINISTER: Thank you very much for having me.
AMANPOUR: This must be taking up a lot of the conversation between world leaders. How concerned are you that now Hezbollah has responded? Israel
says it intercepted a missile that was aimed at Tel Aviv, which is a red line. Where do you think this is headed?
SANCHEZ: Well, I think there's a huge risk of escalation. I think that today it is really important that the International Community put all our
efforts in asking for a ceasefire to stop this cycle of violence and try to open the path of diplomacy. And this is where Spain stands for.
AMANPOUR: And do you think that actually either Spain or Europe or even the United States can change the dynamic, because so far, none of the
entreaties have worked? Israel has its own logic of so-called deterrence and self-defense.
SANCHEZ: Well, first of all, there are some U.N. resolutions from the Security Council that are mandatory for Israel, and they have to fulfill
this U.N. resolution. Stop the war, allow the entrance of humanitarian aid. And of course, what we are advocating from Spain and other countries in the
region, in the Middle East and Europe, is to convene an international peace conference in order to create the conditions for the two-state solution,
which is the only way to find peaceful coexistence and security between Israel and Palestine.
AMANPOUR: Walk me through the results of what you did. You took a politically courageous and slightly different path than many of the other
nations in recognizing Palestinian statehood. Palestine as a nation. Ireland did it and Norway did it.
SANCHEZ: Norway, yes.
AMANPOUR: And I don't know whether there's any more, but anyway, very small number.
SANCHEZ: And Slovenia.
AMANPOUR: And Slovenia. What exactly has been the result of that? Has that increased your leverage, decreased your leverage? Where do you think that's
actually leading?
SANCHEZ: Well, first of all, to me, it's a very important step of coherence (ph) and avoiding this fairly criticism that some countries are
blaming western countries of double standards, because we stand for international -- respect of international law in Ukraine and also in Gaza.
We stand for the same position, which is a world international order based in rules.
Second, I think that there are some important actors also in Israel that want to kill the idea of two-state solution. So, it is important that some
capitals and countries that we were in the beginning of the process of this peace formula back in the '90s, Norway, Oslo Agreements and also Madrid,
this conference, we take this decision in order to flag the idea of the two-state solution and remember all the -- for all the International
Community, especially the actors involved in the region, that this is the only way to find a peaceful and lasting solution for the Israeli people and
for the Palestinian people.
AMANPOUR: So, we've got the nearly one year since the Hamas atrocities committed in Israel, which led to the war against Hamas and actually the
people of Gaza. We've got a war really starting and a great, you know, swaths of the occupied West Bank being flattened by Israel, a lot of
fighting and deaths there. And now, this northern front, this second major front.
You have been talking, I guess, here with various regional leaders, world leaders. What have you -- who have you been speaking to? What have you been
able to determine and ascertain?
SANCHEZ: So, the mood is very pessimistic. And I have to share that pessimistic approach and vision because so far, what I see from Prime
Minister Netanyahu is a clear willingness to continue the war not only in Gaza, the occupation of the West Bank, and also, now we are seeing what is
happening in Lebanon.
[13:10:00]
So, I'm going to meet the prime minister of Lebanon. I met the secretary general of the U.N., talk about the situation in Lebanon because we have
not only the UNIFIL mission in Lebanon is led by a Spanish commander, but we have also close to 700 soldiers, Spanish soldiers also under the
umbrella of the -- this U.N. mission.
And talking with all the leaders, what I see is a very pessimistic vision on what is going to happen in the near future. And that is why I think it's
so important that here in the U.N. Assembly we call for ceasefire, the end of this cycle of violence and look for a diplomatic solution to this
conflict.
AMANPOUR: So, is the U.N. still fit for purpose? I mean, we heard a very robust call from President Biden yesterday along the same lines you're
saying. I mean, he said it is time, in this case, for these two parties to, you know, end this war. And he said, you know, we the U.S. have proposed
ceasefire deals, bridging plans, all the things that the U.S. has done, along with its other allies. And yet, he correctly identified the Security
Council, the Permanent Five, as needing reform, and being able, therefore, to get back to the U.N. role of actually promoting peace.
Because right now, it seems that anybody with a -- who doesn't want to, whether it's Russia over Ukraine, whether it's actually, the U.S. over
Israel at the minute, they exercise their veto power.
SANCHEZ: Absolutely. I think that this is the momentum to open a profound debate about our multilateral system. We have a multipolar world, this is a
fact, but the choice is if we want a multilateral system, effective multilateral system. And that means coherence, the countries seated around
the table of the Security Council must be coherent in Gaza, in Ukraine, standing for the same principles and for the international humanitarian
law.
Second, I think that we need a reform and we need to enlarge the number of countries that are members of the Security Council, but not only that, also
avoid the use of veto, which, at the end of the day --
AMANPOUR: It's just paralysis.
SANCHEZ: Exactly. And last but not least, responsibility. Because those countries must align all our policies towards our common goals, which are
the Agenda 2030, the climate change goals, and all the agreements that we reach in different conventions and summits at multilateral level.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you about Ukraine, because today, the president of Ukraine spoke, and he, again said, don't forget us. Do not weary on us.
We've got a key and we need more weapons. We need, you know, the restrictions on weapons removed from us. And he also, today, for the first
time that I've heard, said that they have intelligence that shows Russia may be poised to attack their nuclear power plant at Zaporizhzhia and
therefore, presumably cause the worst nuclear disaster since Chernobyl. Do you know anything about that?
SANCHEZ: I mean, I have to commend Zelenskyy leadership. Not only by the ground, but also to seek a peace formula that could end with this war. We
were convened in Switzerland this year. I think that we settled the pillars, the framework for a potential peace formula that could end the war
with Russia.
And second, I think that it's important that Russia, and especially Putin, reminds that the International Community, especially the European Union of
western countries, we are going to support Ukraine as long as it takes.
AMANPOUR: Do you think Russia will turn up, should it turn up? Because Zelenskyy has invited Russia to the second so-called peace summit, the one
you're referring to. And do you see any evidence that Russia has been pressured enough yet to actually come to a negotiating table?
SANCHEZ: Putin must understand that there is no way than to sit around the table with the International Community and Zelenskyy and Ukraine and accept
that we need to find the way towards a diplomatic solution to this war.
And from our side, from the European Union side, what we have done over the last year is to engage a lot of economic resources, over EUR118 billion.
EUR42.5 billion were devoted to military capabilities and the needs for the battleground. And the other four, you know, economic assistance for the
public administration, the economic development of Ukraine and so on and so forth.
[13:15:00]
What I think is important is to keep that unity. That unity among the western countries, especially the European Union together with our allies
from the U.S. and Canada. And this, I hope that it could still be the idea and the policy after the U.S. election.
AMANPOUR: No matter who wins.
SANCHEZ: No matter who wins.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you about Venezuela. You have played a very significant role. You have granted asylum to the leader of the opposition,
who's considered to have won the election. He is Edmundo Gonzalez in your country right now. In addition, your Congress has voted to recognize the
opposition as the winners of the election. But you as a nation, as a state --
SANCHEZ: It's government, yes.
AMANPOUR: -- government have not done that.
SANCHEZ: So, the point is that we stand for democracy. Now, is the time for Venezuelans, the people from Venezuela, to find the agreement that
could end with this crisis. So, we stand for democracy. We stand for the Venezuelan people. We granted protection over the last years to 120,000
people from Venezuela, and of course, Edmundo Gonzalez is one of them.
Second, we are very engaged and leading regional initiatives in order to put pressure to the political actors in order to, you know, find a way and
a solution to this crisis. And of course, we want to keep the unity among member states of the European Union in order to put that pressure --
AMANPOUR: Who have already also not recognized?
SANCHEZ: Not recognized.
AMANPOUR: OK.
SANCHEZ: Because what we do is to ask, first of all, for transparency, to --
AMANPOUR: What does that mean?
SANCHEZ: To ask for the publication of the voting records.
AMANPOUR: For the Maduro government to public --
SANCHEZ: For the Maduro government -- no, no, no. For the Maduro government. For an international verification.
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes. But do you think that's even reasonable --
SANCHEZ: But we need to --
AMANPOUR: -- to ask? Do you think he --
SANCHEZ: No, no, we have to -- not ask. It's a must.
AMANPOUR: OK.
SANCHEZ: It's a must. Because what we need is to see what were the real result of the election.
AMANPOUR: But he has no interest in doing that. And that's why --
SANCHEZ: And of course, this is something that we criticize. That is why I think it's important all these regional initiatives from President Lula and
President Petro from Brazil and Colombia, also the regional initiatives that we launched from the European Union and also the declaration in Santo
Domingo last August, remembering that transparency of democracy go together, and that is why it is a must to have the publication of all these
voting records.
AMANPOUR: It would be great.
SANCHEZ: To have an international --
AMANPOUR: But that's for a country that actually recognizes and plays by democratic rules, which the Maduro government does not. And this is the
interview that I did with Maria Corina Machado, and she made this plea to all of you in the International Community. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIA CORINA MACHADO, VENEZUELAN OPPOSITION LEADER: We are asking them to, to first of all, recognize what the Venezuelan people did, to recognize the
truth, make popular sovereignty be respected, and therefore, recognize Edmundo Gonzalez as president-elect.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: I agree, I agree with Corina.
AMANPOUR: Right.
SANCHEZ: I think what is important now is to ask the Venezuelan institutions the publication of these voting records in order to have this
international verification. What we have is a clear statement by the U.N. saying that there was no clear celebration of the elections in Venezuela
and other international foundations such as the Carter Foundation. So, what we need is now to put the pressure in the Venezuelan institutions in order
to have this -- the publication of this vote -- voting records.
AMANPOUR: Just very finally, the U.S. thought that it had put pressure on it, did sanctions, it promised certain sanctions relief --
SANCHEZ: And we did it also from the European Union.
AMANPOUR: Yes, and it went nowhere. They thought that he, Maduro, might, for once, accept the actual results of an election, and he didn't.
SANCHEZ: Yes, well, that is why I think it's important always to remember that this is a solution that people from Venezuela must build up from
there, from Venezuela. And what we try to do from Spain and the European Union and international communities to create the conditions in order to
have that solution.
AMANPOUR: All right. Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez, thank you so much for joining us.
SANCHEZ: Thanks. It's a pleasure being here with you.
AMANPOUR: Yes. You too. Thank you. Now, addressing the U.N. General Assembly today, as we said, the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy,
warned of new intelligence suggesting Russia is planning to attack his country's nuclear power plants. Take a listen.
[13:20:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Recently, I received yet another alarming report from our intelligence. Now, Putin does seem to be planning
attacks on our nuclear power plants and the infrastructure, aiming to disconnect the plants from the power grid with the help of satellites, by
the way. Ladies and gentlemen, by the way, satellites off other countries. Russia is getting images and detailed information about the infrastructure
of our nuclear power plants.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, a dire warning indeed, and somebody listening closely to that speech today is the German foreign minister, Annalena Baerbock, who is
joining me now. Welcome back to our program. The last time we spoke was this time last year, and I don't know whether your hopes are higher or
lower about the world's situation that we see now. Let's just take Ukraine. Did you expect us to be in this dire situation a year later?
ANNALENA BAERBOCK, GERMAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, first of all, thanks for having me again on your show. It's always a pleasure. Yes, if the glass is
half full or half empty, I mean, the world in the last 12 months has not become a safer place, the Middle East, but also in Ukraine.
And as we have heard the president, President Zelenskyy, Russia is leading its brutal war of aggression in a dimension of now destroying by purpose
and reason children hospital, but also energy power plants. And two-thirds of the energy power plants have been destroyed, meaning, before winter
time, that people would freeze to death, and this is just a horror, and this is why we are so strongly calling here, on Putin, to stop this terror,
to stop this war of aggression.
AMANPOUR: Just -- I mean, you're the head of the Green Party, and you all kind of understand about nuclear power plants. And I was told by the head
of the IAEA, just earlier this month in Kyiv, that one of the results of attacking Ukrainian electric grids is that it's stopping the vital power to
places like Zaporizhzhia and that could stop the water that cools the -- or stop the cooling tower process, and that could be a meltdown.
BAERBOCK: Yes. And speaking about my party, this is why we always want, in general, on nuclear power plant that terrorists but also, in these times of
war, they could be targets for actors, like in this case, the Russian president, who do not shy away from any human, obviously, normal behavior
anymore.
We had discussions in the past about Zaporizhzhia, you all remember about that, yes? That the IAEA tried, with the support of Germany and France, to
say heavy weapons away from Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. And now, the direct threats that nuclear power plants could be directly or indirectly
targeted, I mean, would be mean a disaster obviously for Ukraine, but also for Russia.
I mean, Russia is the neighboring state, which shows again that obviously the Russian president doesn't know any limits and any borders anymore. And
this is why I'm so crystal clear here in New York yesterday at the Security Council to all of them who are saying both sides should take a step back.
If Ukraine would not continue to defend itself, if we would not support -- not to continue to support Ukraine's defense, I mean, then these nuclear
power plants, these energy grids would be totally lost.
And this is why it's so important that the whole world is calling on Putin to stop this war of aggression, to stop this terrorizing of civilian
infrastructure in Ukraine.
AMANPOUR: And of course, on the other side, the huge international issue is that Putin has violated international law when it comes to borders,
right? Crossing borders by force. Do you support the, I guess, proof of purpose that Ukraine showed when it went in to the Kursk region and showed
all of you allies who might have been losing hope in their ability to defend themselves that actually we can do a thing or two, you just got to
keep defending us? Did you support that incursion?
BAERBOCK: Well, the decisions lie in the hands of Ukraine. We have a mandate that is always crystal clear, Ukraine and also we, by our support,
are defending the sovereign rights of every state to define their own future, and always in the limits of the charter of the United Nations.
Ukraine is also defending the charter of the United Nations, and this is why we have made clear that self-defense is limited by international law,
by international humanitarian law, but self-defense includes that you don't have to wait until the rocket hits your city, like Kharkiv, you don't have
to wait until the children hospital is being destroyed, but self-defense mean that you prevented, that you can stop it and stopping and direct
attack.
[13:25:00]
And obviously, cities like Kharkiv, which are directly at the border, and I've been there myself, yes, you have to count until 45. And when the alarm
goes off, and if you're still counting, you're obviously aren't hit. So, also the best air defense cannot prevent from these rockets to hit the
city's close at the border.
And this is why in the past we have took -- taken this decision to say, you don't have to wait until the rocket flies over the border, but the limit is
international law. And we've -- we have made that clear in the past and this is also what we stand for today and in the future.
AMANPOUR: So, you're basically supporting what Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the president, says, that we need to also have the right and the ability to
attack military targets inside Russia that threaten us and our children and our civilians and our power plants. But you haven't even sent long-range
weapons, right? I mean, the Germans are still resisting long-range weapons to Ukraine.
BAERBOCK: Well, first of all, I think I've made clear the legal position of my country, of my government --
AMANPOUR: On that regard.
BAERBOCK: -- on that regard. I believe -- and obviously, countries see it differently, but I -- and we believe that it's not the smartest thing to
discuss tactics of how to defend yourself, and especially the question of military support going to Ukraine where to use, how to use in public,
because obviously what we want to achieve is that Ukraine can defend itself in the best matter. So, if we discuss openly what is the best strategy, I
mean, this only benefits one person and this is Vladimir Putin.
And yes, with regard to long-range missiles, long-range weapons, we have delivered certain systems. There is the issue of Taurus, where we as a
German government did not take this step. We have different positions on that one. This is also publicly known, but this is why, for me, it's so
important that we're not starting at finger pointing at each other, but everybody should do the support they can do in order to defend and help
defend Ukraine and by that also, our European peace order.
AMANPOUR: So, do you believe, as President Biden urged everybody yesterday, we cannot be weary and we cannot walk away. Will Germany,
Europeans still be there as long as Ukraine needs it? Because even your own government, your own country has talked about reducing the amount that it's
able to give, whether it's in finance, whether it's in military support.
BAERBOCK: No, we didn't do that. To make that very clear.
AMANPOUR: OK.
BAERBOCK: Because the chancellor has said here crystal clear, I said it yesterday in the Security Council, we stand with Ukraine as long as it
takes. Because Ukraine is defending our European peace order.
If we would say, this is too heavy on our shoulders, financially or with support, I mean, we look at Moldova. I've been there just last week. They
made crystal clear, if Ukraine cannot stand this war of aggression, we are next. So, we shouldn't have the imagination that if one would give in on
Ukraine then we would have peace. If Ukraine is not defending itself anymore, Ukraine is over and the next country would follow. It's not only
about Moldova.
Colleagues here from Eastern European countries have made clear how many breaches of their own territory borders, which are E.U. borders and NATO
borders, which -- how many breaches we have seen in the last months. There has been an attack on a ship in Romanian waters. Rain (ph) ship from
Russian side. So, we can see already the needle stitches at others.
So, this is why it's so important and this is what we are calling here also for other countries in the world that if we want to achieve peace again,
which we want, and we work for that every day for Ukraine and in Europe, Putin has to stop. If the aggressor wins, no smaller country in the world
could sleep in silence in the future.
AMANPOUR: Let's just move to the Middle East, because as you've all been here, it has ratcheted up a major level, and I wonder how you're
considering any possibility that you can all have any influence on de- escalating right now what's happening between Israel and Hezbollah, for instance. Where do you think that stands? Are red lines being crossed? Do
you discuss in there of a wider war opening now?
BAERBOCK: Well, obviously we are discussing about that danger. And this is, I mean, sometimes a bit bizarre. You run to one meeting, you run to one
event giving speeches, but in every second and minute in between, yes, we are working with partners, especially with partners in the region.
We have worked closely over the last -- almost the year now with our American friends, with the core group of Arab countries on de-escalation.
The worst-case scenario would be now that we would have a full-fledged war around the border between Israel and Lebanon. And this is why I have called
-- G7 has called so strongly on de-escalation.
[13:30:00]
We cannot enter another phase of tit for tat. We have seen so many dead civilians. I must say, and would like to say we are mourning also about two
female UNHCR staff members and one of -- a baby from one of these women, and this is why this has to stop. We need de-escalation now. It's a moment
for diplomacy and we all have to use it and this is why we are working constantly together with the closest partners in the region on exactly
that.
AMANPOUR: Closer to home. Everybody's been looking at -- in various countries, but including yours, the rise of right-wing extremism. The AFD,
the extreme right in your country, made some big successes during regional elections. The latest one, it didn't win. In fact, the governing coalition
won, right? Chancellor Scholz's party. Is that correct?
BAERBOCK: Yes, their party, but not the whole coalition, my party --
AMANPOUR: No. Yes, your party did badly.
BAERBOCK: Yes, and maybe I can explain it over here for the broadcast.
AMANPOUR: OK. But I just -- in a big picture, before you -- how much of a threat is it? Because you've even, you know, closed borders, you've called
for the closing of your Schengen, you know, responsibilities and all the rest of it for the moment. It's bad, isn't it?
BAERBOCK: Well, the situation is not good at all, to say, very diplomatic. We have to face it, that democracies also in Europe are being challenged
from outside Russia, Russia's war, autocracies, dictators around the world, but also from inside. And actors from inside, extremists. We had Islamistic
(ph) terror attacks in Germany. We have the extreme right. challenging our liberal democracy, and they are being supported, obviously, from those
outside who do not only want to challenge our democracies, but want to weaken our democracies.
And unfortunately, we have seen that also with regard to the elections you were mentioning and we had the election in three states of Eastern Germany
and the extreme right party and another new very extreme left party, former communist, they have unfortunately, together, almost 40 percent, closely to
50 percent, and they are passing the same message with regard to Russia, that actually not Russia is the aggressor here, but that NATO and the
support of Ukraine is responsible that we are not living in peace.
And obviously, this is a big challenge, and maybe coming back to the question before on that one, this is why, in this very difficult situation,
the question of how much money you can mobilize in a democracy for the support, it's heavy on all our budget. And I think it's important that we
have an open debate about it, that the support for Ukraine is a support for our own security, and why democracies all across the Atlantic have to stand
together, because this is not only a war of aggression against Ukraine, this is also an aggression against liberal democracies.
AMANPOUR: Really interesting. You're right in the thick of it. Annalena Baerbock, Foreign Minister, thank you for being with us.
BAERBOCK: Thank you so much.
AMANPOUR: Thank you. Now, fears of a wider war in the Middle East are being felt also in the United States, including by Lebanese American Mayor
Abdullah Hammoud of Dearborn, Michigan. A state that's home to the nation's largest Arab American population. And Hammoud tells Michel Martin about the
growing voter disaffection in his community and what it would take to restore their trust in the upcoming presidential election.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Mayor Abdullah Hammoud, thank you so much for speaking with us.
ABDULLAH HAMMOUD, MAYOR OF DEARBORN, MICHIGAN: Thank you so much for having me.
MARTIN: You are the first person of Arab descent to be elected mayor of Dearborn, which I think might be surprising to some people, given that
Dearborn is a majority, you know, Arab Muslim city. You were in the State House before you became mayor, but I was just wondering if you wouldn't
mind taking us back to when you first ran, and what made you run?
HAMMOUD: This is the place that my parents first emigrated to, finding financial and social opportunity. And Dearborn is a place in which I'm
raising my own family. And I believe Dearborn to be the greatest American city there is, coast to coast.
And for me, running for Dearborn -- for mayor of Dearborn was about the opportunity to improve the quality of life for all of our residents, and we
never ran to be the first anything. In fact, our mantra was running to be the best, to demonstrate that, you know, regardless of the direction which
I pray, the direction which I lead is a strong direction and the direction in which that can uplift all the communities across the city of Dearborn,
and that's why we did it.
MARTIN: As we are speaking now, it's been a year since the October 7th, you know, Hamas attack on Southern Israel and all that has transpired since
then, as we are speaking now, there is an aggressive military campaign going on in Lebanon, where your parents are from.
[13:35:00]
I just wondered if you would just share a few vignettes, if you would, from what this past year has been like.
HAMMOUD: You know, what I would say is when I ran for mayor, you know, I ran on the idea that I was going to ensure that residents' garbage was
picked up on time. And yet, here I am talking about the crises that are unfolding thousands of miles away. But what I often tell folks is when
there's an issue unfolding that impacts my residents directly, I have a responsibility to use the platform that has been privileged to me by the
residents to speak up and to ensure that their voices are heard. And that's what we've tried to do to the best of our ability over the last year.
I can't say that I've done it perfectly or that I'm doing it just great, but I'm doing the best I can to elevate the voices in this time of deep
pain for the tens of thousands of residents that have called me, contacted me, that have come to our council chambers talking about the sheer death
and destruction that they see each and every single day.
You know, for many Americans across this country, when they see the images or videos surfacing all over social media, to them it's just images of
strangers. For us here in the city of Dearborn, these are images of close family and friends, which makes that pain all the closer to us. And so,
that's why I think I have a responsibility to speak up and use the platform I have to hopefully push for a change and course on what has been unfolding
across the Middle East for as long as I've been alive.
MARTIN: What are some of the stories that your residents, your constituents have told you, just, you know, one or two or three, even from
your own family, if you don't mind?
HAMMOUD: Just yesterday I got a call from a cousin who informed me that his sister-in-law was just obliterated to pieces. She was trying to escape
her home in Lebanon, and as she was walking out with her children, she was advancing to the car when a bomb had just dropped on the car and killed her
in front of her children.
We had an instance where, right now, my stepsister is trapped in Lebanon, and she has not been able to find a flight to come back to America where
she lives with her husband with her children. I've had residents come when we first pushed the first ceasefire resolution for what's unfolding across
Gaza, to speak to the calamity that has struck their family. One resident in specific spoke to losing over 70 or 80 family and loved ones. This is
something that nobody can fathom. And the pain is so deep that there's just a numbness to it.
And unfortunately, as I described months ago, many in the City of Dearborn don't sleep. When my wife first woke up this morning, at 7:00 in the
morning, heading out to work, her first question to me was, what happened since we slept and when we woke up that's unfolded overseas in those -- in
these last five, six hours? And I think that's what is top of mind for so many residents, not only in Dearborn, all across the globe.
MARTIN: So, you're describing a sense of exhaustion, a sense of kind of helplessness. One of the reasons I think people know you, even if they
don't live in or near Dearborn, is that you wrote an op-ed for The New York Times back in February where you describe this sense of betrayal. As
briefly as you can, say more about that. What is that betrayal?
HAMMOUD: Many of us here in the city supported President Biden and his election efforts versus then President Donald Trump on the hope that he
would bring morality and decency back to the White House. But what we have seen unfold over the last 11 months, the number, the numerous war crimes
that have been committed. We have seen a president who has been unwilling to distance himself from the war criminal Benjamin Netanyahu and his war
cabinet. And that's why we feel so betrayed, that our president would rather choose and side with Benjamin Netanyahu over the American people.
MARTIN: You talked about the feeling that, you know, a lot of people come as immigrants, they don't necessarily come from places where they have been
allowed to or encouraged to participate in civic life. And then, they come here and then they're told to participate. And then they start feeling like
no matter what they do, no matter how many phone calls they make, no matter how many peaceful demonstrations they participate in, no matter how many
petitions they write, that it sort of doesn't matter. Does it still feel that way, that you're not being listened to or has any of that changed?
HAMMOUD: We are at the cusp of a regional war unfolding across the entirety of the Middle East. We most certainly still feel that way. And
what I would tell you right now is, you know, over 60 percent of Americans support an arms embargo against the Israeli government. Yet, we have a
president that has not moved on this issue.
It has just been unveiled that both USAID and the State Department have provided the report to the White House administration that Israel -- the
Israeli government did block humanitarian aid, which would permit now the American government from withholding weapons distribution towards Israeli
government, which it had not done.
In fact, Secretary Blinken went to Congress and said anything but the truth. And so, for us, we do at times feel as if all the protesting, all
the yelling and screaming, trying to highlight the atrocities that are happening and unfolding are leading us to nowhere. I think what we are
trying to do and trying to understand is the center of America has moved on the issue of Israel and Palestine. And what we'd love to see now is the
center of the Democratic Party to move as well.
[13:40:00]
MARTIN: One of the reasons you also came to public attention back in February is that there has been a movement to encourage people to vote in
the primaries, to vote uncommitted, as an expression of their disagreement with the administration, you know, over it's a stance toward Israel and the
Gaza war. OK. So, that was the primaries.
And there were significant numbers of people in both Wisconsin and Michigan for both important battleground states that did choose to vote sort of
uncommitted. What about now? What is the feeling now about the best course of action?
HAMMOUD: This is hotly debated across the community, whether it be at the Arab community, the Muslim community or the antiwar community at large, the
community is not a monolith.
I've had conversations with some individuals who feel that not voting at all because of the apathy that they feel and the demonstration that -- all
the work that's happened over the last 11 months has led to nothing. And I think that is the most catastrophic thing come November.
I had many come forward and say they're looking towards a third-party. You have many of folks who were still in Vice President Harris' camp. But I
think what you're finding is the coalition that was built by Joe Biden to defeat Donald Trump four years ago is not tightly knit together, it has
been fractured because of the course that they have taken on the issue of Gaza and more broadly speaking across Palestine and Lebanon today.
MARTIN: To the point of the third-parties that you mentioned, a recent Reuters poll showed that 40 percent of Arab and Muslim voters in Michigan
are now backing the Green Party candidate, Jill Stein. And Michigan was really important to Joe Biden's victory in 2020. I mean, Michigan is one of
those states that went to Trump in 2016.
The fact that Biden was able to win Michigan by, well, in, you know, 150,000 votes, not huge, given you're talking about millions of voters, was
part of the reason that he is president now. But the fact is, Mr. Mayor, Jill Stein is not going to be president of the United States. That's just
not going to happen. So, is this move toward Jill Stein -- is that a political strategy or is that more a statement of anger? What is that?
HAMMOUD: I agree. And I understand that come November, you really have one of two choices over who is going to win this election, be it Vice President
Harris or Former President Trump. I 100 percent understand electoral politics that we have at play. From the individuals that I've spoken to are
supporting a third-party candidate, for them, they're trying to vote with their values and morals at the forefront.
You know, they want a president who not only advocates for an assault weapons ban here in the states, but also insurance that we don't have
cabinet members of the Israeli government passing out assault weapons to radical settlers killing Palestinians every single day. They want to
support a president who understands that we have to end mass shooting at schools, but also holds accountable a government that decimated every
university across Gaza.
You know, we care about universal healthcare and we care about what's happening in Gaza. We care about a new future and what's unfolding in
Yemen. We care about centering worker and unions rights and also wanting to understand what's unfolding in Yemen. And we're looking for a presidential
candidate who takes these values and applies them globally.
And so, I think that's what you're hearing from folks who are going towards a third-party candidate, be a Stein or someone else. And that's really what
they want. They -- people want to be inspired to vote for something. They don't want the simple message that Donald Trump is awful, which he is. We
understand what he represents, the Muslim ban, the annexation of the Golan Heights, elimination of all aid towards Palestinians during his term. We
know exactly what he represents and what he would bring in the second term.
But the fear tactic is not going to work. People want an inspirational reason to come out to the ballot come November.
MARTIN: There's a group called the Uncommitted National Movement, which is a coalition of people who have supported the idea of voting uncommitted in
the primaries. The group claims to have about, you know, 700,000 people who support it. And last week, the movement announced it won't endorse Kamala
Harris, but they did urge supporters to vote against Trump and avoid third- party candidates. So, what does that mean? I understand you don't speak for this group, but what does that mean?
HAMMOUD: Yes, I can't speak to the thought process that went into the messaging behind the Uncommitted National Movement's announcement. What I
can tell you though is when you have conversations at the doorsteps with residents here in the City of Dearborn, where my primary concern is there,
there's a difference in belief.
Again, you have folks who very much do support the vice president. You have folks who very much are supporting a third-party candidate. But I think the
largest voting block is -- are those who are not considering coming out to vote at all.
And if we recall the 2016 election, it wasn't that Donald Trump beat Hillary Clinton by roughly 11,000 votes in Michigan in 2016, it was the
fact that 80,000 voters went out and skipped the presidential question in total. And so, I think that is the thing that we are trying to course
correct for. The message that I have is I endorse you voting come November. At the very minimum, you must come out and you must cast your ballot,
because standing on the sideline is not sufficient, and it's not going to get us anywhere.
[13:45:00]
And so, we have to demonstrate our power through, our voice and our power through our vote.
MARTIN: You are a Democrat yourself, but your position now is officially as mayor is a nonpartisan position if I have that right, right? So, that's
the municipal elections are nonpartisan as they are in a lots -- of lots of places. OK.
So, on the one hand you certainly have had the experience, I think, of having to ask people to support you, even if they don't agree with you
about everything. I don't know if you've talked to the Harris campaign about this or if they've reached out to you, but how would you suggest that
they talk to voters about that?
HAMMOUD: It's a very difficult conversation. I mean, how would you approach a resident who had lost 70, 80 plus family members and tell them,
regardless of what you've lost, the choice is between two, and you must still cast your ballot one way or the other. It's not an easy conversation
to have.
Here's what I can tell you. For the last 20 years of my life Arab Americans and Muslim Americans have made secondary the issues of foreign affairs. I
can't tell you that between Bush, Obama, Trump, or Biden that we have had alignment or agreement on their global policies. That's not been the case.
What you're hearing now in this election that's different is I have been the first to say, and I put so in my op-ed, the transformative policies of
President Biden are likened to those of Lyndon B. Johnson or FDR. But a genocide outweighs all of this. The conflict we're speaking to is
unprecedented.
You're talking about 2.2 million people where 100 percent are displaced, where whether you're looking to the ministry -- the health ministry numbers
or the Lancet medical -- the Lancet journal publication, the deaths are somewhere between 40,000 and 180,000, the majority of which are women and
children, and 90 percent of civilian infrastructure has been decimated.
The U.N. estimates place that it would take over a decade just to eliminate the rubble, and it would take multiple decades to rebuild. We see what's
happening now in the West Bank, where the Al Jazeera offices have been a shattered for the next 45 days. We see the expansion of the war throughout
Lebanon. And again, I'm getting phone calls from close immediate family members saying they're trapped, or they have been killed, or they have been
injured, and we're expected to say these issues that are false secondary.
And so, I think the grace that has to be awarded to this community and this point of time is that this issue is -- has to be as prioritized as those
that I spoke to domestically.
MARTIN: Has the Harris campaign reached out to you, or have you reached out to them?
HAMMOUD: There have been many conversations when we first started with the Biden administration leading into with Harris campaign individuals. And
we've expressed these points time and time again, that when it comes to this community here, the things that they're looking for, at this point,
it's beyond the ceasefire.
We have to understand that Benjamin Netanyahu and his cabinet are not looking to end this conflict. He's looking to retain his political position
within his government, and he's doing all he can to avoid a hostage deal to bring all the hostages and prisoners home and to allow unfettered access to
humanitarian aid.
You can't keep giving this tyrant our access to all the weapons and bombs that we manufacture. An arms embargo and needs to be imposed in order for
us to bring him to the table. So, we can put resolution to this conflict that's unfolding and hopefully, put forward a just solution and
establishing a Palestinian State to end this conflict once and for all.
MARTIN: The former president, the current candidate, Republican candidate, is not an untested quantity. It's not a hypothetical. He's made it clear
where he stands. I mean, here's a person who used Palestinian almost as a slur. I guess what I'm saying is it's a known quantity who's made it very
clear that he stands solidly with Israel.
I know that he's promised and he has asserted that he will bring Middle East peace. He has asserted this. I know he's asserted this to constituents
of yours in various ways, but his method of doing so I find would not -- I would venture to say, would not be pleasing to most of your constituents.
And so, then, the question becomes, what if Mr. Trump wins and all the things that you have supported and worked for and care about are undone?
How will you answer that?
HAMMOUD: I am doing all that I can to prevent Donald Trump from being re- elected. And what I'm trying to do is use a platform that I have in urging the vice president to chart a new course on what's happening. Not because
Dearborn residents are asking for it, not because Arab Americans and Muslim Americans are asking for it, because the center of the party that she
represents, the center of this country has moved on its issues, whether it's an arms embargo, pursuing a ceasefire, ending the conflicts overseas,
these are all things that everyday Americans are calling for.
And so, if we can uphold that value and heed the concerns of Americans from coast to coast, we can work collectively to rebuild the coalition to
prevent the re-election of Donald Trump. But this is not about moving a constituency that is feeling deep pain, this is about moving a candidate
who is seeking the highest office in the globe on issues of morality. And that is what we are trying to do in this moment of time.
[13:50:00]
Obviously, elections start soon. And that's why we are urging with all of the power that we have. That's why you see a muddy draw out from the
Uncommitted National Movement on messaging. Because we understand what Donald Trump represents. Nobody is here to debate that, by any means.
We understand that, ultimately, you have a binary choice come this November, but what is not binary is either are the positions that are being
taken right now overseas. And we have to usher in a new era to bring about just solutions to these decades' long conflicts. Without so, you're really
losing people and leaving them behind at the wayside.
MARTIN: Before we let you go, Mr. Mayor, how -- what -- you have juggling a lot of things and a family, in addition to being mayor, and in addition
to trying to, you know, comfort, support, and advocate for people. What is your work in these next week's going forward?
HAMMOUD: My work is centered on ensuring that the next generation has far greater opportunity and far less difficulty and being as American as they
can be. And that, you know, a name like mine, Abdullah Hussain Hammoud, is as American as any other. And that a city like Dearborn is the greatest
American city, because we are so diverse and beautiful and we come together in these moments of struggle.
So, that's my work, is really centered around making sure my residents have the comfort and support that they need in these dire times. And I take my
lead from them and I lean on them in these moments of difficulty, because that's what Dearborn does.
MARTIN: Mayor Abdullah Hammoud, Mayor of Dearborn, thank you so much for speaking with us. I do hope we'll talk again.
HAMMOUD: Thank you so much for having me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And a clear example, a prime example, about why what is going on in this U.N. building behind me directly affects people like the mayor of
Dearborn and so many else in the United States right now.
And finally, one of Hollywood's brightest stars has been here as well, lending her spotlight to the plight of women and girls in Afghanistan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MERYL STREEP, ACTRESS: And today in Kabul, a female cat has more freedom than a woman. A cat may go sit on her front stoop and feel the sun on her
face. She may chase a squirrel into the park. A squirrel has more rights than a girl in Afghanistan today because the public parks have been closed
to women and girls by the Taliban. A bird may sing in Kabul, but a girl may not, and a woman may not in public. This is extraordinary. This is a
suppression of the natural law. This is odd.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The legendary actress Meryl Streep joined Afghan politicians Fawzia Koofi and Habiba Sarabi at the United Nations this week, promoting a
new documentary, which is called "The Sharp Edge of Peace." And it follows the doomed negotiations with the Taliban back in 2020, which led to the
U.S. pulling out of Afghanistan and the Taliban taking over.
And I sat down with all three of these women to discuss how much has changed since then, and why the world must not keep looking away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: What about this touches you and makes you be involved?
STREEP: This most recent edict that people can't speak in public, that they have to completely hide themselves, it's like the erasure of an entire
gender, and I don't think it has precedence in history, even in the natural world. That one part of the species erases the presence of another, and I
think it's particularly an eloquent moment to raise where we are in the world with Afghan rights.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you, Habiba, because you were the first appointed governor right after the fall of the Taliban, after, you know, democracy in
a certain way, and certainly more liberty for women came after 2001. They took to your authority without protesting against it. You were accepted as
an authority figure as a female governor.
HABIBA SARABI, FORMER GOVERNOR OF BAMYAM PROVINCE: Definitely, but and also not only accepted, but also welcomed. And so, I remember that the time
when I was appointed as a governor, when I went to Bamyan and thousands of people were coming to welcome me. So, this -- it was a point of history in
Bamyan and the history of Afghanistan.
AMANPOUR: And Fazio, you've been a member of parliament for a long time. You've been a really public spokeswoman for Afghanistan and especially the
women of Afghanistan. But for 20 years you had freedoms that you'd never had before. Your film, "The Sharp Edge of Peace," shows Afghan women,
girls, and women, active members of society. Describe what it's like today.
[13:55:00]
FAWZIA KOOFI, FORMER AFGHAN LAWMAKER: Well, I think the one thing Taliban failed to understand that Afghanistan has transformed, and that
transformation is on not only limited to Kabul in terms of liberty, in terms of women, right in terms of people believing in the future of their
daughters more.
You see them, despite, you know, being completely erased from any kind of public and social life, they still protest. That is a sign of a different
Afghanistan that the Taliban don't get that. And I think this is the same Afghanistan 1996 where they were suppressing people and they were silent.
Today, every woman in Afghanistan is a journalist. Every woman in Afghanistan is a TV, by talking about what their experience is. So, as much
as they suffer, they suppress them. It's like, you know, they're popping up in a different way, in a different method.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And you can catch the full interview with these three extraordinary women later this week on the program. And we'll have much
more also of my interview with Iran's vice president on tomorrow's show.
Thanks for watching. Goodbye from the United Nations here in New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
