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Amanpour
Interview with Former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert; Interview with Former Palestinian Authority Foreign Minister Nasser Al-Kidwa; Interview with American Surgeon Who Volunteered in Gaza and Surgeon at Northwestern Medicine Dr. Samer Attar; Interview with The Atlantic Staff Writer George Packer. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired October 29, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Amid devastation in Gaza, a pitch for peace. The former Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert, and the former Palestinian Authority foreign
minister, Nasser Al-Kidwa, join me on their plan to end the fighting and bring the hostages home.
Then, back from Gaza, an American doctor tells me what he saw with his own eyes.
And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT AND U.S. PRESIDENTIAL DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE: We are here together because we love our country. We love our
country.
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And I'm asking you to be -- for the first time in four years, to be excited
about the future of our country again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- campaign crunch time with one week to go until America votes. We get the latest on the state of the race.
Plus, dispatch from small town, Pennsylvania. Writer George Packer tells Walter Isaacson the three factors that will decide the election.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
We have nothing to help but our bare hands, those words of utter despair in Gaza after a strike on a multi-story building this morning killed almost a
hundred people, the health ministry there says. Palestinians at the scene said bodies were everywhere, some being buried immediately in makeshift
graves because official burial places are too dangerous to access.
More than a year of war in Gaza and now in Lebanon has killed tens of thousands of people. And although ceasefire talks are once again underway,
a breakthrough seems unlikely.
On Sunday, Egypt had reportedly proposed a two-day ceasefire only for Prime Minister Netanyahu's office to say they had received no such proposals.
Moreover, according to Israeli media, Netanyahu's defense minister, Yoav Gallant, has warned that his boss -- he's warned his boss that the war is
lacking in strategy and needs a reset.
Amid all of this, an unlikely pair, two former senior officials, Israeli and Palestinian, are proposing what they argue is a way out of war. Ehud
Olmert served as prime minister of Israel while Nasser Al-Kidwa was foreign minister for the Palestinian Authority. And together, they formulated an
outline for peace, which they proposed here in London over the weekend.
So, gentlemen, welcome to the program. I mean, I'd really like to start by acknowledging the extraordinary situation that we have with you two sitting
here together, an Israeli official, a Palestinian official at a time when war is raging, and nobody seems to be able to talk to each other.
So, since you're here, Prime Minister, just give me -- before we get to the nitty gritty, why have you decided this now?
EHUD OLMERT, FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: This is the best possible time. Had everyone agreed, had there not been a war, and we were living in
a quiet atmosphere, everyone would say, what a rush, I mean, why do you hurry? What's going on?
Now, that there is war, there is pain, there is suffering, people are killed, both sides, in a terrible way, there must be something must be done
in order to change it, and someone must try and offer a beacon of light, of hope, that can change the atmosphere. And I'm so happy, and I'm so proud,
that I have this partnership with Dr. Al-Kidwa.
That together -- and we are relatively well known in the -- at least in the region, OK? That we can come together speaking for Palestinians and for
Israelis and say, hey, there is a way which must be pursued seriously, and there is no alternative to it.
AMANPOUR: We'll get to that. So, this all started October 7th, at least the latest, you know, outlet and bloodletting with the Hamas invasion of
Israel. 1,200 people killed, hundreds held hostage. A hundred at least are still there, dead and alive.
And for the Palestinians in Gaza, Dr. Al-Kidwa, 43,000 dead, according to the health ministry there. What is your reason beyond stopping the
bloodshed? What is your reason for a little bit of hope and that brings you together with a former Israeli prime minister?
[13:05:00]
NASSER AL-KIDWA, FORMER PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, it is very painful situation. There is no doubt about that. And yes, it is a
very extraordinary situation not only because of our presence together here, but because of the actual pain and agony felt on both sides in the
region and because of the war that is expanding now to Lebanon and God knows what else after that.
And it is precisely because of that. The reason is that pain and war and bloodshed is not going to do a solution. It will not lead us to a different
situation. Actually, it will take us to square one and it will be more and more of the same, more and more of destruction and bloodshed. And that has
to change. We need to change the course and we need to find a solution.
AMANPOUR: So, I just want to talk about today's news, which we showed in the introduction, Prime Minister, another bombing. It seems to be that
since Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas, was eliminated, in the words of your government, about two weeks ago, I mean, hundreds and hundreds more people
have been killed, there's a lack of aid going in.
When -- this peace proposal that you have, I mean, does this war need to continue? Do you not think it should end?
OLMERT: I think -- I thought, eight months ago, not a week ago, not two weeks ago, eight months ago I thought that it should have stopped. We have
reached the point where we achieved most of what we had to achieve, which is to destroy the military capacity of Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist,
murderous organization. There is no question about it. They did something absolutely terrible. And there was -- it was an inevitable reaction that
Israel had to make. But we achieved most of what we can achieve in the military operation.
We destroyed the Hamas, we destroyed the tunnels, not 100 percent of them, but enough. We destroyed their weapons, their rockets, their bunkers, their
command positions, everything. Now, what happens is that we lose Israeli soldiers, we lose innocent Palestinians living in the Gaza embedded with
the Hamas and, of course, it is a main reason for the growing number of innocent civilians being killed, but we are not going to get back the
hostages if we will not stop the war.
And the time is to stop it today, right now, and to make an agreement that will bring back the hostages There will be Palestinian prisoners released,
no doubt. And then, we will have to pull out from Gaza altogether. And there will be a military force and an administration force. Two different
things. They will take over Gaza and they will provide for the security that there will not be any further military terrorist attacks from Gaza to
the State of Israel.
And then, the question remains, what are we going to do with 6 million Palestinians? This is a question that we have to ask, not Dr. Al-Kidwa. He
sure has this question from his side, but from our side, what are we going to do with 6 million Palestinians? We have to find a solution.
Now, there is not any solution other than a two-state solution. And that's what we, based on what I have proposed to Abu Mazen in 2008 when I was
prime minister, that's what we have to do now. We have to try and bring it back to the center stage, to the international discourse, to the
ministries, prime ministers, governments everywhere to bring it back and deal with it.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, I want to ask you, Nasser Al-Kidwa, obviously Abu Mazen is Mahmoud Abbas, the long serving president of the Palestinian Authority,
no elections, has been there for I don't know how many years now, I've lost count, very, very deeply unpopular. But you --
AL-KIDWA: Nineteen years.
AMANPOUR: There you go, 19 years. And I -- you know, I mean, you know, that's pretty, pretty long. And the question, though is, Israel has a
government, who would be the people who you would think would need to join you and others in -- on the Palestinian side? Who's going to make
agreements for the Palestinians?
AL-KIDWA: Well, at this stage, I think laymen on both sides are supportive of what we are trying to do, but political forces are different story
because I think political forces lack the guts to take clear position in this regard. And as we said, of course, it's very horrible situation and,
you know, everybody is seeking revenge, is seeking blood, is seeking destruction, and nothing more than that. That's why it takes courage to do
the right thing.
[13:10:00]
However, let me say this. Christiane, it is very bad situation. As you said today, there was an explosion, huge explosions in Gaza. And today, also
yesterday, the Israeli Knesset attempted to destroy UNRWA, the most important organization, U.N. organization to help the Palestinian refugees
and Palestinians in general.
So, yes, it is a very painful situation. But you know what? There is no other alternative. There is no solution but the solution that we are
proposing, not only in terms of ending the war in Gaza, but in terms of the overall political solution and the future of Jerusalem as well.
AMANPOUR: I'm going to get to those details in a bit. But actually about the humanitarian situation, a unanimous or rather a majority overwhelming
vote in the Knesset voted to ban UNRWA, the U.N. relief agency, not just from Gaza but I guess from the West Bank and East Jerusalem where they
service hundreds of thousands of people, which is also part of the Palestinian territories.
I know that Israel and the government has issues, but on the issue of humanitarian aid, the United States, for instance, has said, gave Israel a
deadline, if you don't allow humanitarian aid in within 30 days, then we might have to reconsider the terms of us giving you weapons. It violates
the U.S., you know, whatever it is, laws on weapons.
OLMERT: Briefly, I want to distinguish between UNRWA and humanitarian aid. OK. We have problems with UNRWA because we found out that some of UNRWA
people were participating in the massacre on the 7th of October. So, this is a problem.
But as far as I'm concerned, it is incumbent upon Israel to make sure that all the humanitarian aid will be supplied to the Palestinians in Gaza
because this is our moral responsibility and there is no question and no doubt and no argument that can be made about this, OK? So, whether it is
done through UNRWA or whether it is done in a different way, it's a minor issue as long as we do it. OK?
I am entirely against those who think that we can use the humanitarian aspects in order to somehow squeeze more the poor Palestinians, the
citizens that live in Gaza, which are not part of terror.
AMANPOUR: Do you believe in this so-called general's plan? I mean, it's public, it's a former general who's very well known in Israel, who's come
up with this maximalist plan to depopulate or basically starve or surrender Northern Gaza or else, and maybe more? Is this real?
OLMERT: I believe in my plan, which is entirely different, 180 degrees different. I'm not in depopulating Gaza, this is crazy, irresponsible,
reckless, and completely against the basic fundamental human values that Israel represented for generations. And we want to keep representing to the
future. Gaza is not part of Israel, has never been part of Israel, should not be part of Israel. It should be part of the Palestinian State, which
hopefully will be created as part of a comprehensive peace agreement that will change the entire region. And therefore, we are not in any position to
expel the people that live in Gaza from where they live.
AMANPOUR: And obviously, Netanyahu's coalition partners want to resettle it.
OLMERT: Netanyahu's coalition partners want to do this, but not only this, they want also to try and kick out the residents of the West Bank so that
they will be able to annex the West Bank. And therefore, what I say, and I keep saying it, and I know that sometimes some of my colleagues in Israel
don't like me saying it overseas, certainly not in the program of Christiane Amanpour. But I will say it. The real enemy that we have is not
Iran, which is an enemy, is not Hezbollah, which is an enemy, is not Hamas, which is an enemy. The real enemy is from within. The messianic, crazy,
extreme groups of Israelis that think that they can kick out the Palestinians and annex the territories.
I'm fighting against them, I'm campaigning against them, and I think that this is incumbent upon the Israeli present government and Netanyahu.
Unfortunately, Netanyahu depends on them politically to the extent that he close his eyes and he allows them to do things which are totally
intolerable and unacceptable.
[13:15:00]
AMANPOUR: I mean, that's quite -- Dr. Al-Kidwa, that's quite a -- you know, I don't know what the right word is, but it's quite a statement from
an Israeli former prime minister about his own government. I wonder whether you also feel the same way about, you know, former or current leaders on
the Palestinian side, whether it's Hamas, what have they done to their own people, whether it's the P.A., which hasn't been able to do much, frankly,
and hasn't done much and is terribly divided, and whether you think there is any constituency for the bold plan that you two are trying to, you know,
put front and center now?
AL-KIDWA: Yes. Listen, there is no doubt that we need a real and serious change of leadership on both sides. This government -- this Israeli
government has to go and this Palestinian leadership have to go. And of course, we are going to have different situation in Gaza in terms of the
governmental structure responsible for the situation there. So, there is no doubt about that.
What Ehud Olmert is saying is really good. It's something that I'm proud of. I thank him for. The problem is that the Israeli government thinks
otherwise and does things differently. So, if we take UNRWA, for instance, I think the problem for the government is not what some very few employees
of UNRWA might have done, but I think the real goal is to destroy UNRWA for political reasons, for what it represent as an organization, take care of
Palestinian refugees.
Same thing about Gaza. Of course, Hamas did things that the Israelis want to punish Hamas for, there is no doubt about that. But, you know, the
amount of destruction, the total destruction of Gaza that has been happening, the amount of killing the amount of injuring that took place is
beyond belief, and I think it goes beyond the announced goal of destroying Hamas or punishing Hamas. It goes, I think, to the point of punishing the
Palestinian people generally, and especially those who live in Gaza. And now, I think we are moving to see the same thing almost in the West Bank as
well.
AMANPOUR: Can I also ask you, because from what we read and what you all discussed here in London about this plan, it's very similar to Prime
Minister Olmert's plan back when he was prime minister. And it involves the State of Jerusalem, it involves settlements, it involves going back, as
you've just said, to the 1967 lines, it involves refugees. You all rejected it last time. Abu Mazen rejected it last time. Why do you think it has any
more currency now? Dr. Al-Kidwa.
AL-KIDWA: I don't think that Abu Mazen rejected the plan, by the way. I think Abu Mazen did not accept the plan, and that is bad enough. So, there
is no need to create things that do not exist.
And yes, of course, the -- what we are proposing is very similar to what was proposed and negotiated between the two sides and almost reached an
agreement then. I hope that they had reached that agreement. Unfortunately, it was not done.
You know, we agree -- I agree. We didn't invent the wheel -- I mean, the way forward is known. We need to stop the war in Gaza and we say how. And
we need to have an overall, solution political solution in the form of two states, Israel and Palestine living side by side on 19th civil border with
some swap off territory to solve big part of the problem of settlements. And of course, there is the issue of Jerusalem and how it should be the
capital of both and maybe special status for the old cities to ensure the freedom of worships for all believers in the world.
AMANPOUR: And, Ehud Olmert, in July the Israeli parliament overwhelmingly voted for a resolution that rejected the establishment of a two-state
solution. So, your parliament voted for that.
OLMERT: Yes, I know.
AMANPOUR: And they rejected what, I think at the time, Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, he might have been king, I'm not sure, I can't
remember, but the Arab Peace Initiative, which answered all Israel's concerns, and it was rejected by Israel. So, where's your hope?
OLMERT: My peace plan in 2008 and also my speech at the Annapolis Conference, which was initiated by President George W. Bush and the
secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, with the participation of the Palestinians and 55 -- 57 Muslim nations from across the world, I say there
that we take very seriously the Arab League Peace Initiative. And then, what I proposed in my peace plan was on the basis, as far as the refugee
issue is concerned is within the framework of the Arab League Peace Initiative.
[13:20:00]
And I say to you now this, had I told you in 2005, the beginning of the year, that at the end of the year, General Ariel Sharon, the then prime
minister of Israel, would dismantle all of the settlements in Gaza, you will say to me, Mr. Olmert, you must be crazy. It will never happen. It
happened. Against all odds, against all predictions, against all understandings of people about what can be done and what can't be done.
So, I'm telling you today now, the day will come, the day will say, hey, Dr. Al-Kidwa and Ehud Olmert appeared on Christiane Amanpour program in
London and they say that there will be an agreed solution on the basis of two states and on the basis of the 67 borders with annexation and with
swaps of territories and a change in the status of the Arab side of Jerusalem, which will become the Palestinian capital, and on the change in
the status of the old city where there will not be an exclusive political sovereignty, neither for Israel, nor for the Palestinians, because there
will never be peace if there will be one flag there, either Israeli or Palestinian.
So, we have to move forward. It will happen. If we will not believe, if we will not think that it can be done, if we will not campaign forcefully in
order to achieve it, it will not happen. But if we will do, you will see how many will join us and we will break through, and that will happen.
AMANPOUR: Well, I see you nodding, Dr. Al-Kidwa, and I'm afraid we're out of time but this has been a really interesting discussion.
AL-KIDWA: No, I just want to say that I do agree, that's all.
AMANPOUR: Yes, well, good. Good, good, good. Because we don't hear this very much these days. In fact, we don't hear it at all, and it's very good
to see two prominent politicians on each side actually deciding to come out and be public about this, whether or not it's possible in the short-term.
AL-KIDWA: Two fighters also. Two stubborn guys that work for the interests of their people, respectively.
OLMERT: That's right.
AMANPOUR: Good. Nasser Al-Kidwa, Ehud Olmert, thank you both very much for coming in.
OLMERT: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Thank you. So, with just a week until U.S. Election Day, some voters are making their voices heard on Gaza. On Monday night in Michigan,
Vice President Kamala Harris interrupted her speech to respond to protesters in the crowd.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT AND U.S. PRESIDENTIAL DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE: There is a yearning in our country for a president who will see
you, who gets you, and who will fight for you.
And listen, hey, on the subject of Gaza, hey, guys, I hear you. On the subject of Gaza, we all want this war to end as soon as possible and get
the hostages out, and I will do everything in my power to make it so.
And let's be clear, we are all here because we are fighting for a democracy and for the right of people to be heard and seen. We're not about the enemy
within. We know we are all in this together, that's what we are fighting for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Now, the American doctor, Samer Attar, has spent six months on and off inside Gaza, that was between December and June, and he saw
firsthand the desperation and the suffering there, which we've just been discussing with those two senior officials. Now, he says, the situation is
catastrophic and unbearable. Now, unable to reach his colleagues in the north, with many of them killed.
Dr. Attar, welcome to our program. Thanks for being with us. I don't know whether you heard our previous con conversation, but it was really
interesting to hear two very senior politicians acknowledging, particularly on the Israeli side, that the terrible carnage that's going on and the need
to end this. What is your general feeling -- let me just talk about the hospitals that have been hit. And even the Israeli IDF admits that one of
these major hospitals has been hit in the north.
DR. SAMER ATTAR, AMERICAN SURGEON WHO VOLUNTEERED IN GAZA AND SURGEON AT NORTHWESTERN MEDICINE: Yes. I think it's a breath of fresh air to see that
kind of dialogue. But the reality of the situation now is that it's the death and the horror and the suffering is still ongoing. There are
hospitals with patients who are dying. There's no food, no fuel, no water, no medicines, no advanced CT scans or MRIs, no gowns, no gloves, no
equipment.
So, I mean, the comment that they just only have their bare hands, and we've seen it. I think any doctor or nurse who's worked in Gaza has seen
that, where we have 50 people on the floor bleeding to death and sometimes it feels like there's more dead bodies or body parts than there are people
to treat. And you just -- you don't really feel like you can be a good doctor or a good nurse because there are just so many people to help and
you can't get to all of them.
[13:25:00]
AMANPOUR: And we're seeing, as you speak some, of the video that you've provided from your time there. So, the last time you were there I believe
was in June. So, that's about six months ago. It was the height of the summer. There were all sorts of, not just the killings from the military
offensive, but also there was lack of water, lack of food, the heat, I guess, was causing, you know, its own diseases and things.
Can you just walk us through what you had to deal with and what Gaza was dealing with last time you were there?
DR. ATTAR: I mean, I'm lucky that I get to come home to Chicago. But one day in June, we had 350 people killed and about 700 wounded in one hour.
And the hospitals were just overrun. And the local Gazan staff, I mean, we worked for three nights straight. We did about 60 surgeries in three days.
Many of the staff just -- they slept in the operating rooms on the floor, getting maybe two hours of sleep, if they were lucky, here and there. And
that wasn't even including -- those were just all injuries from explosions. So, it was just amputation after amputation after amputation.'
I remember there were these two kids, one we had to do an immediate amputation through his hip joint, and we didn't have enough blood to
transfuse. So, he -- all we could do is just sit back and watch him die because we didn't have enough blood to transfuse and his brother was in the
next operating room. He died for the same reasons, we didn't have enough blood. And then, the next day, we treated a 13-year-old kid. He lost his
parents in an explosion, and he had a shrapnel body, a charred face. We amputated his leg and we could still smell the burnt flesh as we were
operating.
And those were just the injuries. That didn't include all the patients that were in the hospital from starvation or malnutrition, just due to lack of
food and lack of water. So, every day felt like a horror show. Every day, my scrubs were soaked in blood. Every day just felt unsustainable and
unbearable, but it didn't feel like it was ever going to end.
But, you know, the local Palestinians, they have to live this. They've been living this way for over a year. You know, volunteers like us, we get to go
home.
AMANPOUR: Yes. I want to ask you, because I'm sure this happened -- or correct me if it didn't, when you were there, that in their attempt to get
Hamas, there were civilian homes and buildings that were bombed, shelled, attacked, et cetera, and many, many civilians were killed, just like the
one that happened overnight.
We've seen these really horrible pictures of citizens of this building in Jabalya, and we're going to put it up, who were ordered to evacuate via the
Red Cross help. And men, women, and children left the building. And then, the women were sort of told to move on with the children and their
belongings and the men were stripped and basically gathered in a group and the picture's been verified.
And we hear from one of the men who's 27 years old that they just didn't know quite what to do. They decided they had to -- here's this picture --
remove themselves, their kids and try to get out of it. But look, there's old people in this picture. There's young kids in this picture. What have
you -- did you ever come across that, these men who were sort of separated and then sent through, I guess, metal detectors or whatever it might be,
but kind of humiliated the way they're sitting there in the cold and the freezing cold now?
DR. ATTAR: Yes, every hospital I worked at, you'd meet a doctor or a nurse, a local Palestinian doctor or a nurse that had been through that. I
met -- I remember, one orthopedic surgeon, Dr. Obeid (ph), in Awda Hospital, I don't know where he is or what happened to him, but I worked
with him, I saw him save a lot of people, but he also had a story, too, of hospital being raided, and they were -- all the males were stripped and
handcuffed. And some were let go, some were detained. Some of the surgeons I worked with, I just haven't been heard from. So, I never witnessed that,
but every doctor and nurse that I worked with had a story of that.
AMANPOUR: Yes. I mean, the pictures are really unbearable. And I want to know what -- you sort of kind of alluded to it, but are you able to be in
contact with any of the people, the doctors you knew from when you were there? Do you know specifically what they're going through right now in
terms of being able to do basic first aid?
DR. ATTAR: The ones that I can reach are just describing horrible situations, just like they've said, they only have their bare hands and
they're making decisions. They're making conscious decisions to just walk away from people and let them die because they can't help them. And others
that I've tried to reach, they've just gone silent. And I don't know if it's because they've lost their phones or it's because they're killed.
[13:30:00]
One of the nurses texted me saying that he had just had -- his newborn just turned one and he just wonders, you know, this kid was brought into his
world and when he was born, it was the joy of his life. And now, he has no food, no water, no diapers, there are sewage in the streets. And he was
saying some days he just prays for -- he just prays for God to end it all.
And that's just -- it's hard. It's hard to get those texts because here we just feel so -- I feel so powerless and helpless because they're so far
away and we can't reach them.
AMANPOUR: Are you able to maintain your own, you know, mental health, your own equilibrium?
DR. ATTAR: Yes, I don't think there's a one size fits all, but I'd say that this type of work is very fulfilling, it's very meaningful, but it's
also very exhausting and you just -- you have to learn to take the sorrows with the joys and take the punches. That's why we keep going back. That's
part of the job.
AMANPOUR: Well, you are the unsung heroes. Dr. Samer Attar, medical doctor, thank you so much for putting yourself in danger for people.
And of course, what Samer has just told us really highlights exactly the importance of what Ehud Olmert and Nasser Al-Kidwa are trying to do to end
this war and have a proper lasting peace solution.
In these final days of the campaign in America, both candidates are pushing the pedal to the metal. Vice President Kamala Harris delivers her closing
argument this evening at Washington's Ellipse. That is where Donald Trump rallied his supporters on January 6, 2021. And Trump still facing backlash
from his Madison Square Garden rally. He speaks in Allentown, Pennsylvania. It is a majority Latino city with one of the largest Puerto Rican
communities in America.
Correspondent Kristen Holmes is at the Trump rally site. Kristen, welcome to the program. And amidst all of this backlash and amidst the seriousness
of the stakes in Pennsylvania, what are people there telling you, particularly in the wake of that Madison Square Garden rally?
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, where we are right now, Christiane, I mean, this is an area where people are here to see the
former president. So, everyone that we are talking to is excited to see the former president. They have shown up here to talk to him today. We haven't
had a chance to go outside of this bubble, given all of the security. But I will tell you, Donald Trump's campaign is seriously concerned about whether
or not there is going to be real backlash.
Now, Donald Trump, obviously, this is not his first time, or even second time, third or fourth addressed with controversy. So, his team was hoping
this would kind of go away at some point, but it just really hasn't. And Donald Trump tried to address this with an ABC reporter. This was their
version of him talking about these comments.
And what he said exactly, and I'll read it to you. He said, I don't know him. This is about the Puerto Rico comments. Someone put him up there. I
don't know who he is. When given the chance to actually denounce these comments about Puerto Rico, he didn't take that opportunity.
I was told that conversation was supposed to be his response to those comments that were made. Instead, it kind of seems like a vague
disassociation with what happened. Obviously, Donald Trump wasn't the one who made these remarks. But when I reached out to another campaign source
asking how they felt about being in Pennsylvania, they could rattle off the statistics of Latino voters in the area that we are, the amount of voters
that were Puerto Rican. So, they're clearly tracking this very closely.
They've also -- they enlisted the shadow senator from Puerto Rico to speak at Allentown because of this. They're trying to do this outreach. But a lot
of the people who are publicly speaking out against these comments, they want to hear from the former president himself.
AMANPOUR: Right.
HOLMES: And that is not something he has really done, other than these comments here.
AMANPOUR: And even, Kristen, he had a Mar-a-Lago something, a rally or a presser, I'm not sure, just today, and he didn't even mention it. Let me
ask you about Kamala Harris, who's also clearly trying to close this deal, again, in Pennsylvania.
Now, in general, and we heard over the weekend Michelle Obama's very powerful and poignant appeal to men and women regarding, you know, their
women folk and their mental -- sorry, their reproductive health rights and the danger that Trump would present, she said. How is that sort of landing
in Pennsylvania and what do you think Kamala Harris can expect there?
HOLMES: I think it's going to be an incredibly tight race. Anyone you talk to on either side believes the margins are just so thin, and this is going
to be decided by such a small number of voters, and there are a lot of people on both sides who actually believe that this is going to be decided
in the State of Pennsylvania.
Now, when it comes to appealing to men, even with Michelle Obama's star power, bringing those comments out, it just doesn't seem to be moving the
needle yet. Now, of course, we haven't seen any kind of recent update in polling, but just from talking to people on the ground and seeing how wide
that gender gap is, Kamala Harris has really tried to take on this gender gap, trying to reach out to men.
[13:35:00]
It seems from talking to various campaign strategists, it's more likely for her to chip away at that than it is for Donald Trump to, for instance, get
more women voters, that gender gap seems to be is -- obviously very wide for Donald Trump, and they've been trying to reach out to women as well.
But that seems unlikely, particularly, let's just look at the Madison Square Garden rally, for example.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
HOLMES: If you look at those comments, bridging that with a softer image of Donald Trump seems almost impossible to do, which is why it seems more
likely that Kamala Harris would have at least somewhat more success reaching out to men.
AMANPOUR: OK. It's really interesting. And of course, even overseas, especially overseas, maybe, everyone's on the edge of their seats. Kristen
Holmes, thank you so much indeed for joining us from Pennsylvania.
So, while Trump's racist comments have angered many, his anti-immigrant rhetoric also appears to have taken hold in the Pennsylvanian Rust Belt
town of Charleroi. I hope I'm saying that right. Once a thriving community of mostly Democratic union workers, the population has now dwindled. And
though an influx of Haitian immigrants is revitalizing the town, they're being blamed for its troubles and they're being targeted by Trump's lies.
As The Atlantic staff writer George Packer, puts it in his recent piece, "The Three Factors That Will Decide the Election." Trump found a small,
tender wound in a crucial swing state and stuck a finger inside. Some might also call it micro targeting. And Packer joins Walter Isaacson to discuss
that reporting.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER ISAACSON, CO-HOST, AMANPOUR AND CO.: Thank you, Christiane. And, George Packer, welcome to the show.
GEORGE PACKER, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: Thanks for having me, Walter.
ISAACSON: You went to Charleroi, Pennsylvania. And I read this piece you did in The Atlantic, very interesting, because it's so emblematic of all of
the themes we're facing. Tell me how you found Charleroi and why was it so emblematic for you?
PACKER: Yes, it's a small industrial town south of Pittsburgh, and I saw two stories that happened to coincide almost exactly in time in September
in Little Charleroi. One was that its famous Pyrex factory, which has been making glassware since the 1890s, was going to shut down and move some of
its operations to Ohio. 300 plus good union jobs were going to disappear from a town that had been losing industrial jobs for 50 years. So, it was
just one more blow to a declining industrial town on the Monongahela River.
The other Charleroi story was that Donald Trump found out about Charleroi and learned that 2,000 Haitian immigrants had arrived over the past few
years to a town that had really declined all the way down to about just 4,200 people. So, it was a pretty significant increase. And he began saying
in speeches that Charleroi is being destroyed by the Haitians, that crime was rampant, the town was bankrupt. How do you like your beautiful
Charleroi now?
So, I thought, well, these two things are both crucial elements of the election. One is about immigration and about demagoguery and the other is
about decline and inequality and the Rust Belt. So, I thought I should go there and see what it's really like.
ISAACSON: Well, let's start with the economic thing. There was a private equity firm, Center Lane Partners, that is responsible for shutting down
that Pyrex plant. Was some of the anger directed at Wall Street corporate billionaires?
PACKER: Absolutely. I sat down with a group of workers from the factory who are union members in the local steelworkers union, and they were
furious with it. Center Lane Partners and for a company called Anchor Hocking, which had recently bought the factory under somewhat hazy
conditions, because it seemed they'd been prevented from buying it earlier this year because of antitrust law, and then the sale went ahead. It was a
bankruptcy sale. It was all very shadowy. And then, suddenly they're announcing that it's going to be moved to Ohio, that people will get
severance or they can move to Ohio if they can do that. And it was a huge disruption.
And yes, I talked to workers who said, you know, this is what we've been dealing with, is they don't care about us. They strip us for parts, and
then they move when it's profitable, when it's convenient, and we get, what, one woman said, $8,000 in severance for 35 years of her life working
at that factory.
[13:40:00]
So, it's -- there is absolutely blame, a portion, to Wall Street and to corporate greed, which is a phrase I --
ISAACSON: Isn't that something that the Democrats used to be able to express more?
PACKER: Yes. Charleroi was a Democratic town until roughly 2016, it may have begun to turn red earlier, but 2016, I was told, was a big turning
point when Trump began to articulate the anger at trade deals, at immigration, at other forces, globalization that were -- that people there
felt were responsible for the decline of the town.
So, Democrats and unions were the voice of workers in a place like that until, I would say, the 1990s when NAFTA and the forces of globalization
and the new Democrats under Bill Clinton really lost the voice to speak for those workers, stopped seeing them, you could say. And the workers felt
that maybe there's no difference between the two parties. That's what happened over the last 30 years. And Democrats lost their standing as the
champions of the working-class.
And so, people in a place like Charleroi who no longer hear it from the Democrats, who hear instead that the party is becoming the party of the
college educated, they look to the Republicans who may not be doing anything economically to help them, but who are at least giving them
scapegoats and culture war issues that they can blame for their troubles.
ISAACSON: You talk about the Republicans offering scapegoating, was that what the immigrant discussion was about and Trump's attack on the
immigrants that have come to Charleroi?
PACKER: I think so, basically. Look, we have to be honest when a town of 4,200, overwhelmingly white, working-class, and aging people finds that
there are now 2,000 new immigrants, that's 50 percent of the population in a distressed town, and they are overwhelmingly black, you're going to have
tensions, and you're going to have, for example, the complaints I heard that the schools are overcrowded, the teachers can't pay attention to the
American born students because they've got too much translating to do, too many different kinds of kids from different backgrounds to teach, that the
traffic laws are not being followed because the immigrants don't know which are the one way streets and they are rather badly marked, I've got to say.
I was warned by a union member to be careful about one-way streets when I got to Charleroi.
So, yes, there are --
ISAACSON: Yes, but hasn't the immigration actually revitalized the economy of the town?
PACKER: I was going to say, these are inevitable growing pains of a resurgence of life. Yes, it's coming from abroad, but that's because it
wasn't coming from here. The town was dying, and suddenly, empty houses are filling up. There's a whole new population of taxpayers working in rather
low wage jobs that American workers basically didn't want, like in food preparation factories. There's bakeries and markets opening, there's
entrepreneurship, there's life.
And I was told by the borough manager and the borough council president that this was just a great gift to Charleroi, to find that a younger
population was coming, was working, was working hard and the workers at the Pyrex factory said they had about half a dozen Haitians working there and
they were the hardest workers at the factory, even as those same people were complaining about schools and traffic and things like that.
ISAACSON: One of the interesting characters in your piece is the coordinator of Haitian community relation who had come to the United
States, I think it was in the Haitian Coast Guard. Tell me about him and how he's dealing with it.
PACKER: This guy, whose name is Getro Bernabe, was a really interesting man, really thoughtful, and optimistic, as immigrants often are. He sees us
in a better light than we see ourselves. He told me that he always loved the phrase e pluribus unum on the American coin. To him that expressed what
America is about. I said, well, what does it mean to you? And he said, it means people from all different backgrounds come together in a united
country, which made me a little sad because we're not a united country. And it may take someone like that from Haiti to see us in a different light
because he's come from a country being torn apart by violence, a failed state, and he sees us as having all these advantages and good things.
[13:45:00]
He actually really loves Charleroi, but the effect of Trump's pointing it out as a failed place because of immigrants, he said, was having a terrible
effect on the immigrants themselves, who were sort of keeping their heads down, staying inside, even thinking about leaving Charleroi because they
were afraid.
ISAACSON: You talk about how some Democrats are able to speak to these frustrations. And it's something that the National Democratic Party hasn't
done all that well, apparently. But one of the people running for Congress, the Democratic Congress Chris DeLuzio, I think his name is, is able to talk
about everything from corporate greed to being pro-union and to mitigate some of the effects of the immigration talk. Tell me how that message
works.
PACKER: Yes. Chris DeLuzio is a one-term congressman from the district just north of Charleroi, the Pennsylvania 17th District. And he is an old-
fashioned Democrat, you could say. He's only 40. He's a Navy veteran. He's a lawyer. He's very well educated. Very thoughtful. But he has staked his
political fate in a district that's quite even, and where he might not win re-election. It's one of those 50/50 districts that have become so rare.
He stakes his future on a return to a Democratic message that we are with the workers, we don't want corporations to be raiding our towns and our
factories, stripping them for assets, and then moving on and leaving behind broken lives. And that's -- it's a strong message that he tries to hit
home, going door to door in speeches, et cetera.
One thing that happened in his district was that train derailment in Ohio, it was just across the border from his district and some of the chemical
gases spread into his area. And he has made regulation of rail freight one of his signature issues, and has sort of use that as a way of saying, so,
Republican Party, are you prepared to regulate rail freight or are you going to go with what your donors in the Koch Brothers Network want you to
do, which is to keep it deregulated?
So, that's a sort of economic message that doesn't really address immigration head on, but that essentially tries to say there are larger
reasons for your troubles than these 2,000 hardworking immigrants in your town. There are much bigger forces at work, let's pay attention to them and
not scapegoat people who are really simply trying to live the American dream here.
ISAACSON: That populist message of taking on, say the freight and rail companies, in some ways dovetails with some in the Republican Party doing
that. Didn't he work with J. D. Vance on that railway thing?
PACKER: Absolutely. There is a populist strain the Republican Party. J. D. Vance is maybe its leading spokesman now in Congress, and he was a co-
sponsor of that rail freight regulation bill. I think it's called the Rail Safety Act or something. Josh Hawley of Missouri is another.
And it's sort of a submerged part of Trump-ism. Trump talks that way when it suits him, but when he's in power, what does he do? He cuts taxes for
corporations and rich people. And the question is whether the Republican Party is serious about actually defending the economic interests of the
working-class, or if they're using it as a way to turn their party into a working-class party, which many Republicans want without ever really
shedding the legacy of the small government, low tax, low regulation, Reagan, Republican Party.
And the other half of that question is whether the Democratic Party is capable of reclaiming that mantle after years and years of becoming the
party of the professional class, which doesn't really see places like Charleroi at all and has forgotten about them.
ISAACSON: There's been a major shift, which is somewhat documented in this town of Charleroi of the Democratic Party moving more and more to become
the party of urban, more affluent, more educated meritocratic elite, and the Republican Party playing a populist card, being for the average working
guy. To what extent is that a major shift in our politics that'll be ongoing?
[13:50:00]
PACKER: I think it's been happening for several decades on the Democratic side with Bill Clinton, and Barack Obama was another meritocrat who
believed in the meritocracy and in the value of higher education. And on the Republican side, it was a revolution with Trump. It happened in 2016.
Until then, the Reagan dogma had held the party in its grip and nothing else really could get through.
So, we now have a Republican Party that claims to speak for workers, and it is winning working-class voters from all races. That's a big change that's
happened in the last cycle or two. And it has kind of defied the norms of American politics. Black voters voting for a Republican is not something
that was supposed to happen. It's happening. It's a big problem for Democrats, and Latino voters in even greater numbers.
But as I said, I am skeptical that the Republican Party is prepared to use government, because that's what we're talking about. This -- the anti-
government gene is so strong in the Republican Party that to use government and to govern well rather than simply tearing down the administrative state
in order to bring jobs, to bring chip making and manufacturing and green energy jobs to places like Charleroi, or to keep the jobs that are there,
the few industrial jobs that are still there, and to support unions, because those are the voices of workers. I'm very skeptical. I just think
it goes against too many of the interests of the Republican Party, too many of its reflexes, too many of its donors.
So, I think, in a way, the working-class is up for grabs and I don't see either party claiming it. I don't see either party being able to make it a
true realignment, which would last for a generation or two. That to me is where American politics is going to be played out, which party can claim to
speak for people who work for a living and make an hourly wage. And right now, I think it's up in the air. And I don't see either party making its
claim in a way that's going to last as a realignment.
ISAACSON: You wrote a very influential book called "The Unwinding," about how America kind of, frayed its social fabric. How has that played out even
more as you saw it in Charleroi?
PACKER: We just keep on unwinding. That book came out in 2013. Trump was a New York celebrity and a TV star and had begun to make a name for himself
as a denier of Barack Obama's citizenship, a birther. He's not in the book. But Trump-ism is in the book. The landscape that Trump walked out onto and
claimed is in the book, because it's about communities that are in decline, institutions that are failing to support the people they're supposed to
support. It's about loneliness, how Americans seem to be trying to make it in -- against the odds without any help from either government or union or
church or corporation.
So, I wrote it in places similar to Charleroi, like Youngstown, Ohio, which is a more -- a bigger and more dramatic example of industrial decline. It
wasn't hard to find people who said the middle class is gone, the game is rigged for the elites and the powerful, and my children are not going to
have as good a life as I had. Those became the mantra that I heard over and over.
And did I hear that in Charleroi? That's all I heard in Charleroi. So, of course, Charleroi is not Seattle or Washington or Austin, Texas, the
country is regionally dividing dramatically into the Charlerois of America and the Austins of America. And that in itself, to me, is part of our
unwinding. We don't feel that we belong to the same country. We don't -- people of different parties don't feel they belong to the same country. And
our elites in media and politics seem to have figured out that the best way to get ahead and make a name and make money is by feeding that, not by
trying to overcome it, but by feeding it. And that's what they do.
ISAACSON: George Packer, thanks so much for joining us.
PACKER: I really enjoyed it. Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And finally, tonight, immense bravery in the face of adversity. Spanish soccer player Jennifer Hermoso became the first woman to receive
the Socrates Award at the Ballon d'Or ceremony last night. A humanitarian award recognizing her fight for women's rights in the sport.
[13:55:00]
Moments after winning the World Cup last year, Hermoso was kissed without her consent by then Spanish football chief Luis Rubiales. Despite huge
pressure from the Federation, she refused to be silenced. As a result, Rubiales was banned from the sport for three years and will stand trial
next year. Hermoso spearheaded a global movement to bring an end to sexism in the world of soccer, inspiring athletes around the world to stand up for
their rights.
That's it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always
catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
