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Amanpour
Interview with UNRWA Commissioner-General Philippe Lazzarini; Interview with "All We Imagine as Light" Director Payal Kapadia; Interview with Syrian-American Artist and Architect Mohamad Hafez. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired December 12, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
The grim reality in Gaza as desperation, death, and hunger soar. Philippe Lazzarini, head of the relief agency UNRWA, joins me on what he calls a
dystopian war.
And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IRINA TURBINA, MOTHER OF RUSSIAN TEENAGE PRISONER (through translator): Of course, I'm terrified for him. And I'm afraid that part of him will break.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- the Kremlin's teenage crackdown. We bring you a report on the youngest Russians facing prosecution for political dissent.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAYAL KAPADIA, DIRECTOR, "ALL WE IMAGINE AS LIGHT": The title has to do with the possibility of imagining another life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: "All We Imagine as Light." Payal Kapadia on her new film about Indian women, navigating life and love, that's dazzling viewers.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOHAMAD HAFEZ, SYRIAN-AMERICAN ARTIST AND ARCHITECT: I'm so homesick, and I said, stop whining. If you can't go to Damascus, make Damascus.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- Syrian artist and architect Mohamad Hafez talks to Michel Martin about the years spent portraying his homeland from exile.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Emergency meetings are underway across the Middle East. U.S. Secretary of
State Antony Blinken has been in Jordan meeting King Abdullah as the region grapples with the sudden fall of the Assad regime in Syria. And in Israel,
President Biden's national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, met with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and said the United States is trying to close a
hostage ceasefire deal. And he also sent this pointed message to his hosts.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAKE SULLIVAN, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: We have viewed various critical points over the course of the past 15 months as moments where not
enough was getting in to ensure that people had what they needed to survive and we made no bones about pressing on that. Because we think at the end of
the day, feeding starving children does not harm the security of the State of Israel, but it does vindicate our common shared values of humanity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Now, last night, the United Nations General Assembly demanded an immediate, unconditional and permanent ceasefire in Gaza and also,
condemned a new law in Israel that will ban the operations of the relief agency UNRWA.
The head of UNRWA, Philippe Lazzarini, is on a tour of capitals that support the agency's work, trying to get that ban reversed. And he joined
me here in the studio.
Philippe Lazzarini, welcome to the program.
PHILIPPE LAZZARINI, COMMISSIONER-GENERAL, UNRWA: Thank you for having me.
AMANPOUR: You are in London as part of your meeting with major donors, the government. Also, you're trying to get supporters to get Israel to reverse
the ban on your operations. Is that right?
LAZZARINI: That's correct. I mean, the first objective for us is to reverse the ban, to make sure that it is not implemented, because if it is
implemented, it would also mean the end of the UNRWA operation in Gaza, but also in East Jerusalem and in the West Bank.
And as we know, we have a major humanitarian operation taking place in Gaza. We have to scale up our effort instead of weak -- further weakening
our collective response to the people in Gaza.
AMANPOUR: We're hearing just the most awful stories continuously. The starvation, every day, the killing. And we show the pictures, and we show
families mourning their many, many kids. You know, Israel says they're going after militants as well. But there's a huge number of civilians, and
specifically children, who are being killed.
How -- you know, if you're not officially able to enter or operate, I know you have people there, what are they seeing on the ground, your workers,
your employees?
LAZZARINI: Stories are absolutely harrowing. I just had our staff counselor who went to Gaza for four weeks, has interviewed, was in
relations with 2,000 of our staff. And basically, they were sharing their stories, they are heartbreaking.
[13:05:00]
For example, staff members saying that I lost 30 kilos, we are hungry, and we are just eating animal fodder to keep us alive.
AMANPOUR: Even staff members?
LAZZARINI: Even staff members. Even staff members.
AMANPOUR: So, if that's the case for them, what does that mean for the ordinary Palestinian family, children, women?
LAZZARINI: That means hunger is a real reality. It is a deepening in Gaza. You know, Christiane, in September, we couldn't reach 1 million people, 1.4
million people in October, 1.7 million people in November. Hunger is deepening.
AMANPOUR: So, the secretary of -- the national security adviser has been and is in Jerusalem. They're trying to work on a ceasefire and a hostage
deal. He did say a number of things, including a pointed message, I assume, to the Israeli government, that feeding the starving in Gaza does not harm.
Israel's security. Why do you think that message isn't getting through?
LAZZARINI: I think the message is not getting through because there is absolutely no empathy because the war in Gaza is being legitimized under
the label of the fight against terrorism. So, basically, the suffering of the people in Gaza cannot really be felt. But I would say the exact
opposite would go against the security of Israel. If we keep people being starved in Gaza, it can only deepen resentment and future extremism in the
region.
AMANPOUR: Can we just talk about why you're banned? The elephant in the room. And I'm going to get this absolutely right and correct. As you know
Israel, from the beginning, has essentially accused UNRWA of having staff members who not only, they say, are part and tools of Hamas, but some who
took part in the October 7th massacre. You know this, you've done investigations, you've laid, you know, certain people off. Have you had any
actual evidence to support that charge?
LAZZARINI: We had an investigation from the Internal Oversight Mechanism of the United Nation. The conclusions have been shared at the end of July.
Basically, half the staff, there was not enough evidence, and for half the staff, the conclusion was, if the information is authenticated, this might
contribute to, indeed, criminal charges.
Conclusion for the agency has been that all the staff has been dismissed, and I have always been very clear, if any of them have participated to the
horrible massacre of October 7th, this would be a terrible betrayal to the United Nations, betrayal to the Palestinian communities, and that needs to
be criminally investigated.
AMANPOUR: But just to be clear for me, did the Israeli authorities present you with evidence that's incontrovertible?
LAZZARINI: No. We have allegations. Most recently we received a list of 100 staff member. We keep asking for substantiated information to open
investigation, but we have never ever received this information even to allow. The U.N. to open an investigation.
AMANPOUR: Meantime, you have said that there is a disinformation campaign being waged against UNRWA, against you, in the United States. You said the
Israeli government has placed billboards in cities around the world calling for UNRWA to be eliminated. And we have video, because here's one of them.
And this is from a post to the official Instagram account of the consulate general of Israel in New York.
As you can see, it basically says paychecks for terrorists or humanitarian aid. UNRWA has alternatives, it must be replaced. Is this disinformation
campaign working? Does it -- has -- have you seen a drop off of funding or supporting?
LAZZARINI: Now, we have seen a resumption of funding over the last year, especially after the number of actions being taken by the agency, after the
investigation, but also after a number of reviews, the big exception being the United States.
Now, as you rightly said, there are efforts and broad mobilization within the Israeli government to delegitimize the organization. But the real
reason, Christiane, behind this has nothing to do with Hamas infiltration within the organization. It is politically motivated. The primary here (ph)
is to strip the Palestinian from the refugee statute, and ultimately, through this, there is a belief in Israel that they will fix, once for all,
the issue of the right of return.
AMANPOUR: So, I've heard that before, the idea that UNRWA is -- has the word refugee in its acronym. And people who want to strip that title say,
how can you have refugees generation after generation? They say they're not refugees, these aren't camps, these are bricks and mortar and concrete
buildings in Gaza and elsewhere.
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LAZZARINI: They are not the exception. You can be a refugee from one generation to another rigid generation until you lose the status of a
refugee. Look at Afghanistan, look at Somalia. People are refugees now for a number of decades. If today Palestinians are still refugees, it's not
because of UNRWA, it is because of the lack of a political solution which has addressed the faith.
AMANPOUR: Would you say that if they want to get rid of UNRWA, they have - - it has to be because there's a state and a political solution?
LAZZARINI: If you want to get rid of UNRWA, you have to genuinely be committed to a political solution, to a two-state solution, to have a
political pathway, and UNRWA can become again this temporary organization delivering critical services to the Palestinian refugees and handing over
its activities to a future State of Palestine or empowered Palestinian institution.
AMANPOUR: So, as I said, Israel accuses UNRWA of being infiltrated by Hamas. Meanwhile, Hamas has repeatedly and publicly accused UNRWA of
colluding with the Israeli occupation. That's your view as well. I think you -- I've heard you say that. You said it in Doha as well. How can
humanitarian work succeed in a situation like this?
LAZZARINI: Well, as you rightly said, we are also accused by Hamas to collude with the Israeli occupation. They have been also very critical of
our human rights curriculum in our schools. They have been very critical to our code of conduct of promoting gender equality. They're very critical of
our summer camps where we bring girls and boys together for sport, art, and music.
But again, we are a casualty of this war. The real reason why they want -- Israel wants UNRWA to be eliminated is because of political reason. We keep
hearing by the author of the bills that this is an opportunity in one generation to put an end to the victimhood and to put an end to the refugee
statute. It all trickled down to the refugee statute and the right of return.
AMANPOUR: The refugee status of Palestinians. OK. So, I want to ask you this. What are you -- we're hearing a lot about what's happening to the
terrain in Gaza. We cannot get in, but we know from people inside that you can't move here. You can't move there. There's, you know, lines that cross
various parts like the Netzarim Corridor, et cetera. The North is barely approachable by anybody except, you know, Israel and et cetera.
What do your workers say is actually going on the ground? I ask you because Moshe Ya'alon, who I'm sure you know of, former defense minister under the
Likud government, has criticized these forced displacements, these evacuations, suggested that there's ethnic cleansing going on by his own
military -- or the politicians are ordering it. What are you people seeing on the ground there? Do you think that's correct?
LAZZARINI: By any account, facts on the ground indicate that there is a forced displacement. We have today, for example, 50,000 to 70,000 people
who are under a very tight siege in north of North Gaza. These people are being pushed out further south. We have about 200,000 people remaining in
Gaza City, which obviously was a main city in the Gaza Strip. The rest of the population has been pushed further south. The north of Gaza seems to be
no land anymore for the Palestinians.
So, even if there is no intent to declare policies, facts on the ground indicate that indeed there have been a forced displacement of the
population.
AMANPOUR: If there is a ceasefire, as everybody is trying to get at least before the inauguration, maybe even before Christmas, how long will it
take, and it's apparently being raised as potentially a limited ceasefire, to release hostages, certain prisoners, get a certain amount of
humanitarian aid in, how long will it take, given the catastrophic hole of aid to ramp up? How quickly do you think you can ramp up to at least the
number of calories and needs for people's daily living?
LAZZARINI: I think we can quickly ramp up. What we need is sustained uninterrupted access. But as you know, Christiane, today we are confronted
also with the problem of the lawlessness in the Gaza Strip. There is a lot of anarchy going on. Our convoys are also subject to attack from organized
armed group. And even --
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AMANPOUR: Is this Hamas or gangsters?
LAZZARINI: No, no, no. These are emerging armed families, armed group, criminal gang appearing.
AMANPOUR: Because of the vacuum?
LAZZARINI: Because of the vacuum. Absolutely. And we had, last night, again, one of this incident where a convoy of 70 trucks has been entirely
looted, and this was a combination of desperate people who looted the trucks, but also of armed group being present on the field.
AMANPOUR: And the Israelis don't help you, you know --
LAZZARINI: No, there was --
AMANPOUR: -- delivering security?
LAZZARINI: There was a tragedy, unfortunately. Intervention of a drone shot at the crowd. And reportedly, up to 25 people have been killed last
night.
AMANPOUR: That was before the so-called Flower Massacre?
LAZZARINI: No, it's a repeat of the Flower Massacre. The Flower Massacre, more than a hundred people were reported that were killed. This was a few
months ago. But yesterday, there was a similar incident and the Flower Massacre, which happened with more than 25 people reportedly killed and
tens have been also injured.
AMANPOUR: It's really -- it's just so awful. And the fact that we can't get there on the ground to be able to report it ourselves is very, very
frustrating. You talked at the beginning about a lack of empathy on all sides to end this.
In Doha this last weekend, I was on a panel in which I was interviewing the Qatari foreign minister, the Indian foreign minister, and the Norwegian
foreign minister. And he and the others talked about a double standard when it comes to empathy or criticism of the various breaches of international
human rights and humanitarian law that are going on around the world. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ESPEN BARTH EIDE, NORWEGIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: The problem now is that we have one part of the world who is highlighting correctly Russia's
violations of Ukraine's sovereignty, but being wobbly on Gaza. And then you have another part of the world who are correctly criticizing Israel in
Gaza, but rather wobbly on the principles that have been violated in Ukraine. And I proudly say that I stand up for the principles in both
cases. I will demand behavior of Russia in Ukraine, and I will demand compliance with international humanitarian law in Gaza.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAZZARINI: There is a deep, deep feeling in the Arab world, but also in the Global South, that there is indeed a double standard when it comes to
the application of international humanitarian law, and that the major exception today is Israel.
Basically, what we have seen in Gaza is a crossing of all the possible red line, a total disregard for the international humanitarian law to the risk
that it is almost becoming irrelevant. But the feeling in the region is for that, that in fact, depending on the type of life we are talking about, it
matters more than other lives.
AMANPOUR: And just very briefly, if that ban is upheld, it comes into effect at the very end of January, beginning of February. What happens on
the ground?
LAZZARINI: That would be a total disaster. Not only it would weaken our collective effort to respond to extraordinary humanitarian need in Gaza,
but it would also deprive, once a ceasefire is in place, hundreds of thousands of girls and boys living currently in the rubble, deeply
traumatized, to go back in a learning environment.
And this is what I fear the most --
AMANPOUR: Because you run the schools.
LAZZARINI: -- because when we say that UNRWA is not replaceable, yes, it is replaceable, but it is replaceable by a state, by public institution.
Our organization is the only one which was geared to invest in human development, providing this public like services.
So, if we stop our activities, we would deny access to education, but we will also sow the seeds for more resentment and extremism in the region.
AMANPOUR: It's a really tragic story. Philippe Lazzarini, head of UNRWA. Thank you very much indeed.
LAZZARINI: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: And tragically, a new study finds 96 percent of children in Gaza right now fear their imminent death. That's according to War Child U.K.
And now, to the war in Ukraine, where Russia continues to advance on the battlefield. Since the full-scale invasion began in 2022, more than 20,000
Russians have been detained at home for protesting that war. As Moscow cracks down on political dissent, it also joins a long list of countries,
such as Iran, Egypt, Israel, and many more who do hold child prisoners.
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Russian law allows the prosecution of those as young as 14. And of course, their families are deeply fearful about what's happening to them, and of
the toll their experiences will take on them, as you'll see now in this report from Correspondent Alex Marquardt.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Arseny Turbin was your average Russian teenager. A top student who enjoyed electronics. He built a
radio transmitter for a class project. Today, he's one of Russia's youngest political prisoners, arrested at 15 years old, and now facing five years in
a penal colony, found guilty on terrorism charges. He was accused of joining a Russian paramilitary group fighting for Ukraine. He admits he
contacted them, but denies joining.
On Russia's National Day in June last year, he staged a solo protest, posting on YouTube saying, I'm against Putin and freedom for political
prisoners. Now, Turbin is one of at least three dozen teenagers who are jailed in Russia for political reasons. Among Russia's almost 3,000
citizens facing criminal prosecution on political grounds.
Human Rights Group, OVD-Info, has tracked these cases and told CNN there are at least 16 teenagers that they know of, but almost certainly more, who
were detained after Russia invaded Ukraine, and the Kremlin dramatically cracked down on dissent, including by minors.
We spoke with Turbin's mother, Irina, in Russia, who had pleaded with her son not to speak out, knowing what could happen.
IRINA TURBINA, MOTHER OF RUSSIAN TEENAGE PRISONER (through translator): Of course, I'm terrified for him, and I'm afraid that part of him will break.
But I want to believe that he will be strong until the end.
MARQUARDT: You shared some of the letters that Arseny wrote to you from detention. And in one of them he says, please, I'm asking you to do
everything you can to make sure I get released. I dream of the day when I'll be released and can hug you. How painful is that for you as a mother
to read that?
TURBINA (through translator): I cried because I understand that I am doing the best I can already. I knew I couldn't do anything. I have already done
and am doing everything I can. But this is not enough for him to be free.
MARQUARDT (voice-over): In another letter, Turbin wrote, yesterday, after lights out, an inmate pushed me into the toilet. Today, he punched me twice
in the head while I was in bed. The situation is very difficult.
Kevin Lick knows all too well about the brutality of Russian prisons, after 17 years old and sent to a labor camp with a four-year sentence.
KEVIN LICK, FORMERLY HELD PRISONER IN RUSSIA: They handcuffed my hands with a rope and started to beat me. They put out a cigarette on my hand.
There's a scar left.
MARQUARDT: They physically abused you?
LICK: Yes, they abused, to try -- to get answers out of me.
MARQUARDT (voice-over): Lick had taken photos of a military base across from his apartment building. He says he wanted to document history as the
Russian military prepared to invade Ukraine. Pro-Regime Media published this video of his alleged equipment. Lick was accused of wanting to send
the photos to the intelligence services in Germany, where he is also a citizen, but he denies this.
LICK: My first two months of imprisonment, I got held and -- I was held in solitary confinement. Now, when I'm looking back, of course it left scars.
A psychologist told me that I have PTSD.
MARQUARDT (voice-over): In prison, he says he was packed into cells with other inmates and lost a huge amount of weight. Then, he was suddenly
released in August as part of the historic international prisoner swap. When Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gershkovich and former U.S. Marine
Paul Whelan were also freed.
In protesting Putin and his regime's war in Ukraine, charges against teenagers range from arson to sabotage and treason. The youngest case that
OVD-Info has told CNN about is of a 14-year-old unnamed girl accused of desecrating a military symbol.
In late October, OVD-Info says that 15-year-old Sevastyan Sultanov (ph) was arrested and is now being prosecuted for anti-Putin and antiwar graffiti.
He, like both Kevin Lick and Arseny Turbin are supporters of opposition hero and Putin nemesis, Alexey Navalny, who died in February in a penal
colony.
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Lick marched alongside Navalny's widow, Yulia, in a pro-democracy demonstration in Berlin just weeks ago. He's now embracing a new life of
activism.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Alex Marquardt reporting there. And a note, of course, Russia's Federal Penitentiary Service hasn't responded to our request for comment
regarding those allegations in that report. The Kremlin consistently denies the existence of any political prisoners in Russia at all.
And now, it is awards season in the United States, and our next guest made history this week by being the first Indian filmmaker to be nominated for a
Golden Globe award. Payal Kapadia's film, "All We Imagine as Light," was also nominated for Best Non-English Motion Picture. A beautiful and real
portrayal of Indian women navigating life and love under the patriarchy in modern Mumbai.
I sat down with Payal Kapadia here in London after she took home another big prize from France.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Payal Kapadia, welcome to the program.
PAYAL KAPADIA, DIRECTOR, "ALL WE IMAGINE AS LIGHT": Thank you for having me.
AMANPOUR: Your film is getting very, very positive reviews, and of course, it won the second most important prize at Cannes, the film festival, which
was a real rarity. I just want to say what you said there. Please don't wait another 30 years to have an Indian film. So, how did you feel when you
won?
KAPADIA: I mean, it was a really amazing moment. I was already so excited that the film was in competition with so many directors whose films I
really admire and to be in the competition. We were all pinching ourselves. And then, to win a prize was a thrill.
AMANPOUR: I mean, in competition with things like substance and I mean, a whole load of other very distinctly -- actually, with a feminine and
feminist twist interestingly. So, tell me about "All We Imagine as Light." What does the title mean and what, in short, is the film about? Because
it's directly through the eyes of three women.
KAPADIA: The title has to do with the possibility of imagining another life, especially in a society where, you know, the moral sort of world is
so all consuming that it's very difficult sometimes to think that there's another way.
So, it's about three women and the three different situations they're in. Two of them with their own love lives, not together, separately, and with
another woman who's fighting for her housing.
AMANPOUR: So, you say the morals, do you mean the traditions and the mores of life and caste and all the rest of it in India specifically?
KAPADIA: I mean, love in India is very political.
AMANPOUR: Love is?
KAPADIA: Love. The question of love. It's political everywhere, I think. But in India particularly so. And for me, all my films are about love and
longing. So, even in this one, I wanted to explore further the themes of love for these women. One of whom is in an arranged marriage with a man
who's disappeared and gone to Germany. And the other is falling in love with a young man. And it's just the start of the romance, but you know,
there's going to be trouble for them ahead.
AMANPOUR: You really feel the longing. That's a really, really interesting word. And you transpose it, I guess, to most women in your country. Why is
love political in India? For those who might not understand, why?
KAPADIA: I mean, because in India love has a lot to do with marriage and marriage has thought to do with, you know, the sort of control of the
family of who you can be with and who they think that you should be with. And that's related a lot to identity, to do with caste and religion. So, it
becomes a kind of way that there's a kind of control over the woman's life, and for me, that is a matter of concern.
AMANPOUR: So, there are three women. The most -- I mean, I'll read their names. There's Prabha, who's the senior nurse. Anu, who's a young one, in
the same, and Parvaty. They're all different generations. It really revolves more around Prabha and Anu, in my opinion, the two nurses. They
share a flat in Mumbai. They're original from Kerala in the south, but both very different.
I want to play the clip that we have, which essentially shows the beginnings of the relationship between Anu, the young nurse, and her
boyfriend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[13:30:00]
AMANPOUR: It looks like it could be, you know, any young couple just texting about how to meet and where to meet. But in this case, as you say,
it's political. She's a Hindu and he is a Muslim. Why is that a problem?
KAPADIA: It's -- well in this particular situation, it's this identity, but it could have been any different identity and it would still be an
issue in India. So, it's really kind of frowned upon for this girl to be having this boyfriend.
AMANPOUR: Why do you think the Indian, whoever it was, the film board or whatever, or a member of it, decided not to put it in? Another Indian film
has been put in for the Oscar for the best foreign film. But you may still, you know, put yourself in for director and other issues. But they said it's
more like a European film set in India than an Indian film. Why do you think -- what is that mindset? Because Mumbai where it's set is a very
cosmopolitan and pretty liberal big city.
KAPADIA: Right. I'm not really sure why they said that. It also has to do with the funding of the film, maybe. And there -- because it was co-
produced with France. So, perhaps they had the feeling that, you know, it's a French film or something like this.
AMANPOUR: It's a little bit like a love letter to Mumbai. Tell me about Mumbai, and what's your relationship with that city?
KAPADIA: I have a love-hate relationship with Mumbai. It's a city that I think gives a lot of possibility, gives a lot of opportunities to people,
especially for women. It's a city that's more safe, little bit more safe than other parts of the country for women to work late at night, There's a
lot of infrastructure to support that. There is an attitude towards work, which is more professional.
So, for a lot of young women, it's like a nice place to come and you feel like anonymous sometimes and you can lead your life in a different way.
AMANPOUR: Visually, it's got a lot of light and shadow, a lot more shadow visually, and it's raining a lot. Was that part of the storytelling? How
did you want to portray it?
KAPADIA: I did want to -- yes, I did want to shoot the film -- this part of the film in the monsoon season, which is a very particular time in
Western India because we don't have other seasons. There's monsoon and then there's no monsoon. And it's sunny. So, there's just two seasons. So, I
felt that the monsoon season has this sort of sticky, hot feeling, which, for me, worked well with the themes of the first part of the film. And I
just wanted to feel consumed by that light. So, that when you go to the second half, there is a brilliant sunlight which changes your feelings.
AMANPOUR: And there's the beach scenes.
KAPADIA: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Yes, it does actually really change your feeling and to an extent, the storyline as well, sort of picks up pace. I was interested that
you said also, and I'm going to -- in -- you know, to a different reviewer, you said, it's -- you admit that it's quite difficult to define the film,
but women are its central fact, and hardworking migrant labor that powers one of the world's largest metropolises. You said, I think people from big
cities like New York and Paris identify with it. This thing about happenstance, female friendships in such places is something that I think
speaks to everybody.
KAPADIA: I mean, in India, we have several states. So, you -- Mumbai becomes a place for people to come from different states and come and live
and work there. It's very cosmopolitan in that sense, because we do speak a lot of languages in India. So, it does feel, for a lot of people, even
alienating in terms of language and things like that. And Mumbai especially because of the scale of the city and how it is, I think it calls for a lot
of unique relationships, which is what I tried to explore in the film because I feel that these three women can only be friends in a city like
Mumbai.
AMANPOUR: You come from the world's biggest democracy. It is more and more nationalist and populist. It's, you know, essentially, you know a Hindu
nationalism run by the very powerful prime minister. And it appears that he has a lot of influence. Like a lot of journalists now they say you know, we
were sort of cheerleading for the people in power. They got the election wrong. They thought he would have a total super majority and that's not
what happened.
What is it like for a filmmaker to work in a pretty kind of pressure cookered environment?
KAPADIA: Well, I think it leads to more creative ways to talk about the issues you want to talk about. And that's what we've tried to do in this
film as well. That there are all the topics that I wanted to talk about very openly and it's been designed into the narrative of the film. So,
you'll find a way.
AMANPOUR: Including the issue, which is the main love story, of a Hindu- Muslim love story, between the young lovers.
KAPADIA: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Which is really interesting. I want to ask you about the men. Obviously Shiaz is there quite a lot, the love interest, but the other men
are not, the fathers, the estranged husbands, et cetera.
KAPADIA: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And there's a really strong platonic friendship between the women. Talk to me about how you designed that and why.
[13:35:00]
KAPADIA: So, I was interested in having these men in the film who are like lingering men. They are not always there, but they're still causing
problems, even in their absence. Like Prabha's husband, who's not there, and Prabha's husband who has not done the paperwork right. So, he's not
there and still --
AMANPOUR: And she's being evicted.
KAPADIA: She's being evicted. And then there's the woman at the beginning of the film who's having dreams of her dead husband's ghost coming to
trouble her.
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes.
KAPADIA: So, for me, it was important that, you know, there is this system that is the problem and there are some men also who suffer it -- suffer in
the patriarchy system. So, for me, it was not, you know, to divide the world into binaries, but to kind of question the larger social order.
AMANPOUR: And conversely to show the power of female friendship, right?
KAPADIA: Yes, that's -- that for me is the most important thing. I think female friendship is important everywhere. It's just that a lot of times in
Indian mainstream media women are quite often pitted against each other and that's kind of the main sort of thing that's pushed. And that's very sad
because I think people are threatened by women being friends.
AMANPOUR: So, let me ask you, because it looks like, from what I can read in the press, that you are being pitted against the female director of the
other film that India did make its official Oscar entry, right? What do you think of that?
KAPADIA: It's a pity because people should be rejoicing that there are two films by female directors and that's so great. I mean, that's just -- isn't
it a wonderful moment?
AMANPOUR: Yes, it is.
KAPADIA: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Nicely said. Payal Kapadia, thank you so much.
KAPADIA: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And next to another creator taking inspiration from their home country, this time Syria. Architect Mohamad Hafez creates replicas of
Damascus, capturing the beauty and the spirit of the city in intricate 3D models.
Living in the United States since 2003, he's had to channel his homesickness and his anguish over Syria's devastating civil war into this
work. Now, with Bashar Assad gone, Michel Martin asked Hafez about his hopes for this moment and how odd has helped him cope.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Mohamad Hafez, thank you so much for speaking with us.
MOHAMAD HAFEZ, SYRIAN-AMERICAN ARTIST AND ARCHITECT: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
MARTIN: So, you were born in Syria. You spent some time out of the country. You've been in the States for a number of years. And so,
obviously, I want to talk about your beautiful work. But before we do, the events of the last couple of days have been so momentous, so overwhelming,
things have happened so quickly. Can I just ask how you've been experiencing all of this?
HAFEZ: I'm not sure I have a straight answer of how I am experiencing all of this or any of my family members. It has been indoctrinated for my
entire life in my head to think a certain way, and now, all of a sudden, everything is up for grabs. So, I'm happy from the inside. I'm very, very
happy. I'm very optimistic, but we're also very cautious of what is to come. And we're a bit concerned with the security of the country and the
looting and everything that we started seeing. So, it's a bit concerning.
But overall joyous, overall optimistic, overall driven, scared, feeling a rush of love for all students. Feeling a huge amount of gratefulness that I
have been lucky enough to witness this time out.
MARTIN: So, let me go back. You were born in Damascus. I understand that you grew up some years in Saudi Arabia, then went back to Syria when you
were, what, a teenager, around 15. And is that when you really started to kind of see the city?
HAFEZ: Absolutely. Growing up in Saudi Arabia was a great childhood because we kind of grew up in a bubble, in a compound for physician
families. My dad was a physician there. We left when I was a teenager trying to find my roots in 1999. And I went from a private, very upscale
academy, to the Syrian regime high school system where I myself wore the military uniform and was shoved with five people on a plank of wood they
called the desk and with 50 people total in the classroom and with people - - teachers yelling and spewing out rhetoric, but also going out to the streets of Damascus right after that and walking the streets and seeing
mosques right next to churches, right next to synagogues, right next to nude sculptures, right next to a Muslim hijabi woman with niqab and then
moving to a much -- a different aesthetic.
[13:40:00]
And I'm seeing what is this place and what is this view of code, systems. And the churches would go up, bells, and call to Azan (ph) and the
merchants in the street. So, I immediately got infatuated with that and I said, OK, that's my roots. This is where I'm from. And it's changed my
entire life. So, I wasn't the teenager that was interested in sports or kicking ball or anything. I was a teenager with my sketchbook in the
streets of old Damascus, just taking it all in.
MARTIN: Is that where you fell in love with architecture? It's just the idea of the physical place and what it means and how much it carries?
HAFEZ: Absolutely. Architecture is a way to tell stories. It's an open book that you walk through. It's the footprint of civilizations in the
physical realm.
MARTIN: I mean, it really is a cradle of civilization. It really is a place that contains the centuries, you know, within it.
HAFEZ: Absolutely. I mean, doors tell your stories. Doors -- and there are doorknobs in Syria that are older than some countries around the world.
MARTIN: So, in 2003, you moved to the U.S. to study architecture, but at some point, you realize that you have a single entry visa. Do you remember
what it was like to take in that realization?
HAFEZ: Of course, I remember. I will never forget that day. A friend of mine had pointed out the many entries allowed on the visa. I thought I had
a student visa. I must be allowed to come and go. And he said, check, how many. Is it going to have an S or M? S for single, M for multiple. I'm sure
as heck I ran to my passport and I opened it and it said single entry only.
I said, what does that mean? He said, you're going to have to go back home and apply all over again for the same visa and wait all over again. You
have to realize. We're a Syrian family that sent people to study in the United States since 1985. My security background check took a year and a
half in Damascus. None of that mattered. All that mattered that this guy is a Muslim, Mohamad (ph), Syrian, who was in Saudi Arabia. It was Bush era.
It was post-9/11.
MARTIN: Post-9/11.
HAFEZ: He must be SSS on the passport. So, I continuous -- I can immediately learned I'm not messing with these people. I'm not going home.
And sure as heck the floor -- the travel ban, as we know it today, existed back then, but nobody knew about it. But it forced us, those students,
young students, to register with the FBI every time they left the city. Every time we planned to go from Iowa to Chicago to visit.
MARTIN: But then 2011 is when the mass protest started and then the Civil War -- as we know it now, the Civil War started. And then, again, you
realize that you can't go back. Do you remember what that felt like?
HAFEZ: Absolutely. I was a young architect. I was fortunate enough and I owe them this to work with an amazing group of architects and my boss, John
Picard (ph), who entrusted me as a young architect and gave me so much trust to lead huge projects at a very young age. And all of a sudden, he
says, you're going to pitch a project for us in Beirut. And I said, thank you, but you have to understand something about me. My visa is a single
entry. You send me to Beirut, I have to go to Damascus to stamp my visa at the embassy and I don't know how long it would take to run my security
background check. It takes years.
I think my bosses did not even realize what was going on. He just, Mohamad, we have lawyers, just go, go. So, we go and we pitch the project in Beirut,
and I go to Damascus as an aftermath to go stamp my visa in Beirut, and that was May 2011. Daraa had started. We start, we looked at it and I even
was part of a protest that erupted in the -- on a Friday when we -- when I prayed Friday prayer in Damascus. I was living that. I was so joyous. I was
so homesick that I was walking in the streets of Damascus, recording people talking, recording the calls to prayers in secret. And people are like,
what is wrong with you?
I wanted to soak it in. I realized I had a nasty feeling inside this, that this is a gift from God, Muhammad. Take it all in. You're not seeing this
ever again. I really had this feeling inside me that this is your last time.
[13:45:00]
And these are the recordings that later on I found by chance, remembered that I had them and I started infusing them in my artwork. And so, when
you're inside the miniature, you'll hear all of the sudden the call to prayer and the kids running around and the merchants. What I realized then
is I had captured a moment of peace that was no longer existing when these artworks came out to the world.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
MARTIN: How did the artwork start? How did the artwork begin? Because I said you're an architect. You're in charge of, you know, huge, you know,
multimillion dollar projects. So, how did the artwork start?
HAFEZ: It started my first year in college, when they told me you're never seeing their family again, you're never seeing the Damascus again. And I
was so homesick. So -- and this was 2003. This was well before -- this was the golden new era of Damascus, where we're opening up to the world,
modernity, cell phone, internet, my family is gathering, without me, all four -- three siblings and my two parents, weddings, my -- and birth of my
nephews and nieces and all of these, and I'm so homesick. And I said, stop whining. If you can't go to Damascus, make Damascus.
And as an architect student with tools of model making tools, I started putting a couple of things together and, you know, I remember my first
piece, I just started tinkering around and I looked at the clock and later on was like, oh, I just spent 10 straight hours on this, but it felt good.
It felt -- it feels -- and so, I started in secret doing these things alongside my studying, my career and so on.
And so, by dumb luck, over the last 24 years I've been in America, my artwork evolved in stages that reflected literally what was happening in
the ground and what I was feeling. So, I went from a nostalgic -- my earlier work are very pristine, nostalgic reproductions of old Damascus to
the invasion of Iraq, what we saw to (INAUDIBLE) and all the way fast forward to Syrian uprising, the Arab Spring, all of that, I have artwork
that resembled this, that was built in secret.
MARTIN: What did you think it was? How did -- what did -- what is it to you?
HAFEZ: We know -- we now call it art therapy or cathartic or expression. But I knew because you've got to realize, you know, on the daytime, I was a
clean-shaven Italian looking Mauricio architect that's trying to pull a corporate, you know, composed look pitching $200 and $300 million. But the
Mohamad that went back home every day and opening his feed to destruction and cities as old as Damascus and Aleppo be bombed out of existence after
all the love relationship that I had gone through with my home country. And I'm seeing all of that heritage being blown out of existence. You can
imagine the hot and cold cycles that I went through daily.
MARTIN: So, how did it start that your art became recognized as art? I mean, at first, it was -- forgive me, it was therapy. It was a way to just
express all that was inside of you. When did you realize that it was art? And when did it become recognized by other people as art?
HAFEZ: In this very studio, I would spend endless, endless nights building these things and building. And every few -- you know, every blue moon, I
would allow somebody to this little bubble. And it got to a point where I think it was 2015 or 2016 when somebody went into my studio and said, this
is -- people need to see this. I'm like no, no, they really -- this is just for me. He was like, you're crazy. You're -- this needs to be seen.
I don't recall how things have happened, but I -- the things that happened so fast that in less than a year, I was written up in The New York Times,
New Yorker, Guardian, Global Citizen. I was very quickly doing about six solo exhibits. You have to understand that when I came out to the world, I
had a body of work of 24 years that resembled all of these eras. And it was the refugee crisis over then. And people wanted to understand a lot about
Syria and refugees in ways that the politicians were not able to humanize and talk about it.
And so, that's -- and then a documentary came out and that's all -- it all happened so fast and I couldn't care less about the lies that was. I mean,
appreciative, but for the exposure, but I couldn't care less about it. I was just -- it was for me. I had food on the table. I was an architect. It
was for me.
[13:50:00]
But the more I would put the work out there, the more -- many peoples all over the world from many walks of life, not Middle Easterns, not Syrians,
Europeans, Germans, Jewish people, would flock to my exhibits and relate and resonate with this anguish and homesickness and pain.
MARTIN: Your family is still all over, is it right? Your family is still separated like all over the world. I mean, you have siblings who live in
one place. You live in the United States.
HAFEZ: Yes.
MARTIN: Can you try to explain for people who have not had that experience of what it's like to be separated from family and not see them for years,
not be able to? Can you describe that?
HAFEZ: Now, we're in December. We just passed Thanksgiving holiday. I hated Thanksgiving holiday in every inch of my body. Everybody around me in
college and in my, you know, 25 years in America were just like you're saying, subconsciously preparing to be with families around these dinner
tables. I was that kid that would sit at home without anywhere to go, homesick, watching my family's life, death, close people to me getting
married and so on and without being able to take part of these simple human activities that nourish us as humans in a relationship.
And it's a simple light to every human around the world. What crime did I commit to be -- to have that stolen from me, to have these minutes of joy
and sorrow and sadness stolen from me? So, for many -- I couldn't even -- I didn't want to talk about it, but I made art to make sure to talk about the
pain of homesickness. And sometimes the whole piece that I'm making is just my mom's salon and my mom's sofa inside a suitcase.
MARTIN: Each phase of the experience has manifested itself in your work, and I can't wait to see what this phase inspires in you. Do you think you
might go back to Syria at some point?
HAFEZ: I think two nights ago, I just couldn't sleep. I couldn't sleep. I tried attempting and I finally woke up in the middle of the night and I
said, I have to do this. I decided to give away all my artwork that was built in that era to proper institutions and museums, to highlight that
black era, that dark era that we have went through and to remind us of the Syria never again moment.
This is an end of an era, no matter how troublesome, no matter how pessimistic, optimistic people are, there is nothing worse coming or worth
fearing than what we've seen as Syrian people under that regime. The whole world can agree that this is an era that will never come back. We can go
through turmoil to rebuild and stand on our feet, absolutely, it's understandable, but we have as collective artists to say this has finished.
One, to teach ourselves to dream. I need to put a line in the sand to say now, Mohamad, you can't go back. What you going to do about it?
So, the work that I have been doing with immigrant and refugee kids here to -- in the diaspora now has a new other dimension where I'm saying, your
work has to go into institutions, to educate what had happened, grow on it, learn the mistakes and build the society together.
I have -- I'm very eager and curious recent in the last two nights. I'm saying -- I'm thinking to myself. How did the Germans do it? How did they
reconcile? How did they come together? How did many nations that went through this come together and forgive and forget while learning?
So, with that initiative, I hope many artists, creatives of Syrian will come together and put that line in the sand say, listen, right now is a
dark moment. We understand. But time will come where we will have our own institutions and it's time to rebuild the new generation.
MARTIN: Mohamad Hafez, it's been a delight. Thank you so much for speaking with us.
HAFEZ: Thank you. I appreciate it. God bless.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And hopefully, the light has come to Syria. Finally, tonight, in turbulent times, nature often provides a respite. Sometimes it even makes
us laugh.
[13:55:00]
Like this photo of a stuck squirrel. It's the winner of this year's Nikon Comedy Wildlife Awards, taken in Ravenna, Italy. But don't worry, the rare
red creature is not actually stuck, it's diving into its tree trunk hideout.
The other winners include this dancing praying mantis, entitled Mantis Flamenca. This unexpected role swap between a bald eagle and a fish, and
these smooching owlets next to their grinning little one. I think that's the cutest and that's the best. And nature always makes us feel better.
So, that's it for now. Thank you for watching. Goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
