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Amanpour
Interview with Palestinian National Initiative President Mustafa Barghouti; Interview with Former Saudi Ambassador to U.S. and U.K. and Former Saudi Head of Intelligence Prince Turki Al-Faisal; Interview with U.S./Middle East Project President Daniel Levy; Interview with "The New Yorker's "Public Defender" Subject and Criminal Defense Attorney Who Represented Jan. 6 Rioters Heather Shaner. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired February 05, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
A shock proposal from Trump to clear out and take over Gaza. We get reaction from Palestinian politician Mustafa Barghouti. The regional
perspective from the Saudi Arabian former ambassador to the United States, Prince Turki Al-Faisal. And analysis from negotiator Daniel Levy.
Plus, representing the rioters, attorney Heather Shaner, talks to Michel Martin about her clients, the people who stormed the capital on January
6th.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. It was the proposal heard and roundly rejected around the world. Hours after
President Trump said the United States should not only take control of Gaza, but with a gleeful Israeli prime minister at his side, he also called
for the permanent removal of its Palestinian population.
To be clear, this is called ethnic cleansing and it is illegal under international law. It's also called the forcible transfer of a population,
which is also illegal under the post-Holocaust Geneva Conventions, to which the United States is a signatory. But in the Monopoly Board strategy of a
real estate developer already eyeing Greenland, Canada, the Panama Canal, et cetera, Trump said the United States would redevelop Gaza and its
coastline into, quote, "the Riviera of the Middle East."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: The U.S. will take over the Gaza Strip, and we will do a job with it, too. We'll own it and be responsible for
dismantling all of the dangerous, unexploded bombs and other weapons on the site, level the site and get rid of the destroyed buildings, level it out,
create an economic development that will supply unlimited numbers of jobs and housing for the people of the area, do a real job, do something
different.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Immediately, the backlash from regional powerhouses and neighbors was firm and a flat-out no. As for the beleaguered Palestinians
themselves, they say they've endured 15 months of hell as Israel has leveled Gaza, but they aren't going anywhere. They won't be forced out,
they say, now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This is a failed Israeli plan, and it's impossible to transfer us from Gaza. We lived under bombardments for a
year and a half. After all this suffering, starvation, bombardments, and death, we won't easily leave Gaza.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): All of our children's homes have been demolished, and our house is half destroyed. Rain comes into the
house, cold is coming in, and we will still stay whatever happens. Even if we stay in the tent, even if they give us castles and villas, we are not
leaving our lands.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I want to die in my land, to stay in it. I was born in Gaza. lived in Gaza, studied in Gaza. I got married
here and had my children. Whatever happens, I will never leave it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, that's the reaction to the proposal, but from Trump's perspective, is this a negotiating masterstroke? Tonight, we ask three most
interested parties. Saudi Arabia, a Middle East peace negotiator, and of course, a key Palestinian official.
And we begin with Mustafa Barghouti, president of the Palestinian National Initiative Party, who joins me from Ramallah in the occupied West Bank. So,
Mr. Barghouti, you've had approximately 24 hours to figure out what was said from the White House yesterday. What is your reaction to both things?
One, the taking over control and forcibly removing the population, and the other, to we will provide employment, we will level -- you know, we will
get rid of the unexploded ordnance, get rid of all the rubble and rebuild it into a beautiful space.
MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI, PRESIDENT, PALESTINIAN NATIONAL INITIATIVE: Christiane, thank you. What we heard was President Trump talking, but actually it was
the voice of Netanyahu. What President Trump proposed was not only destructive, but criminal. I don't know if the American people in
leadership understand exactly what he was saying, that this is a war crime, that this is a criminal act, that this is the most serious violation of
international law.
[13:05:00]
And by which law President Trump thinks he can steal our land and conduct theft of Gaza Strip to use it for his, I don't know, imaginary plans of
construction and so on. By which law he wants to displace us, 2 million Palestinians, from Gaza, would -- what would he say if I say, for instance,
that people in New York should be removed to Afghanistan? Of course, he will be totally mad if I say so. What would he have said if somebody
suggested that Jewish people in Israel should be removed from Israel and transferred to Europe where they came from? What would be his reaction?
The basic element here is that this is a very serious violation of international law, and it will not work. I think President Trump has shown
an unbelievable level of ignorance of the history of the Palestinian people, of the resilience of the Palestinian people, but also ignorance of
the geopolitical facts on the ground in the Middle East.
Jordan will not accept this. Egypt will not accept this. Saudi Arabia rejected that. I don't think any country that respects international law
and respects itself would accept such proposals.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you a practical question? And that is that it is rubble for -- in 15 months the Israeli military has managed to reduce much
of the Gaza Strip to rubble. You know, do you think it's uninhabitable? Do you think Gazans can actually figure out how to live there?
A lot of the Arab countries like Qatar said today, we plan, you know, as a group of Arab nations to help rebuild, but while the Palestinians remain
there. But, Steve Witkoff, who visited Gaza last week, said this just yesterday. What we're trying to do is be transparent to these people. If
you go to Gaza today, I was there, I witnessed it, you see people going there, picking up a tent, and literally, in some circumstances, turning
right around again because there is nothing left there.
What is your answer to that?
BARGHOUTI: That's exactly the Israeli propaganda. My answer to that is that 500,000 Palestinians, half a million people, came back to the north of
Gaza, although it is destroyed, of course, because they would not leave their land. And what they are talking about is absolutely incorrect because
the last thing any Palestinian wants after we've experienced ethnic cleansing in 1948, the last thing that people want is to be ethnically
cleansed again.
This -- to be disconnected -- as some people have told you in your program, to be disconnected from their history, from their families, from their
land. And don't forget that the people in Gaza are part of the Palestinian people who also live in West Bank and also live in 1948 areas. Why would
they be separated from their families and their relatives? This is unacceptable.
And also, people are ready to reconstruct. We are ready. We didn't complain to President Trump. We are ready to survive. People in Gaza are ready to
survive. Regardless of the hard conditions. And Mr. Trump should have asked Netanyahu, how could you have caused all this damage? He should have asked
himself where they did these 86,000 tons of explosives that were thrown on Gaza, where did they come from? From the United States of America.
United States has responsibility for the ethnic -- for the terrible genocide that took place that Netanyahu who conducted. And for that, it
should be paying compensation to Palestinians. They should force Israel to pay compensation to Palestinians, not to punish the victim by ethnically
cleansing us out of Gaza. That is totally unacceptable.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you something? Because you mentioned the West Bank. You're sitting there in Ramallah, the headquarters of the Palestinian
government, such as it is, on the occupied West Bank. And we see every day reports from there of basically a lot of still settler violence, IDF in
various areas. Some of it is, they say, to clear out terrorists from like Jenin and elsewhere.
But there's a big effort, and the settlers are not shy about it, to take over farmland and olive and other orchards and villages. What is actually
happening there? Because Trump was also asked whether he would pronounce on whether he would accept full annexation of the West Bank?
[13:10:00]
BARGHOUTI: Well, the real essence of what Trump is doing, and I am sure he did all of that in consultation with Netanyahu and the other fascist
ministers in his government, he wants now to ethnically cleanse Gaza, he will allow Israel to annex the West Bank, and then they will be talking
about transferring the population, the Palestinian population from West Bank to Jordan.
This is -- we know -- we understand what they are doing. At this very moment, the Israeli army has already ethnically cleansed Jenin Refugee
Camp. They forced more than 20,000 people to evict their homes and started destroying their homes. Hamas is not running West Bank. So, why are they
doing that if they used to claim that they are attacking Gaza because of Hamas? No, it's not true.
They are attacking Gaza and the West Bank because Palestinian people live there, because Netanyahu has made it his mission in life, he and his
fascist government, to completely ethnically cleanse Palestinian people, and he will not succeed.
What he failed to achieve through genocide will not be achieved through threats of the American president. We're resilient, we're staying on our
land, whatever it takes, and how much it cost us, we would not leave our country because we cannot accept another Nakba, another ethnic cleansing of
our people.
AMANPOUR: So, Dr. Barghouti, you know that neither the United States nor Israel accepts the word genocide about Gaza. But the Israeli right-wing and
the settlers, as you know, are euphoric, as they've been saying. The former minister, Ben-Gvir, said that he might return to the coalition over this,
if Trump's plan is implemented. And he tweeted, when I said this time and again during the war that this was the solution to Gaza, they mocked me.
Now, it's clear this is the only solution to the Gaza problem. This is the strategy for the day after.
So, they feel like they're winning. My question to you is what is going to stop this?
BARGHOUTI: The sad thing here, Christiane, is that unfortunately the whole Israeli political spectrum from the governing parties to the claimed
opposition, all of them have welcomed what Trump said. That is a very dangerous phenomenon. It shows that not only the Israeli government but
practically much of the Israeli society has moved to fascism. This kind of behavior I've never read about or seen before, except maybe what happened
in Germany during the Nazi and the fascist there.
This is very dangerous development, not only for Palestinians, but for the future of Israelis themselves. And this kind of tendency where they are all
accepting a war crime of ethnic cleansing and encouraging it, where did all the talk about peace, about survival, about coexistence, where did it all
go? And if that is the kind of behavior we are witnessing now from the vast majority of the Israeli society, then what do they expect from the
Palestinian people? Will -- do they think that we will simply surrender and capitulate? Of course not.
What can we -- what can stop this plan is three things. First of all, Palestinian resilience and resistance to this terrible war crime. Second,
it should be a unified Arab position, which we expect will happen and take place. And now, we see worldwide condemnation or at least rejection of this
terrible and criminal idea.
AMANPOUR: And finally --
BARGHOUTI: These are very important three factors.
AMANPOUR: Fine. And I will put that to Saudi Prince Turki in a moment, but, you know, obviously the Israelis will reject the way you characterize
them. And interestingly, there were quite a few Israelis who CNN asked today in Tel Aviv and elsewhere, and they didn't like this plan either, but
I don't know about the majority of the country.
But my question to you now is, do you think the two-state solution is dead?
BARGHOUTI: I think they've killed it a long time ago, but the question is what is the alternative to the two-state solution. Without removing the
Israeli legal settlements, we cannot see a two-state solution. Without ending occupation, you cannot see a real Palestinian State.
But if there is no two-state solution, the only solution left would be one democratic state with equal rights for everybody on the -- on all of the
historic Palestine. They don't want it. I know. They reject two-state solution. They reject one state solution. What is their solution? Exactly
the ethnic cleansing that now President Trump is advocating.
This is a very shameful and black moment in the American history that the American president, the highest person in the system is calling for
conducting a war crime, something that never happened before. And it is really shameful. And I hope that the American establishment can correct
itself on this matter and force President Trump to retract these dangerous ideas.
[13:15:00]
AMANPOUR: Well, that'll be interesting and we'll watch out, because certain politicians are saying, particularly the bit about using American
troops, that that is not going to go over very well in the United States. So, Mustafa Barghouti, thank you.
And now, we're going to explore wider. Trump is clearly banking on rich Arab countries and kingdoms to support and implement these visions. Qatar,
the main regional mediator and possessing deep pockets, has already said that it and other Arab nations plan to help rebuild Gaza while the
Palestinians remain on their land.
The United States really wants normalization between Israel and the regional powerhouse Saudi Arabia, but their foreign minister has also
rejected the Trump plan. So, next we go to the capital Riyadh with the former Saudi intelligence chief and ambassador to the United States Turki
Al-Faisal. Prince Turki, welcome to the program.
You have been digesting what came from the White House last night You probably heard the view from Ramallah. So, is there going to be a United
Arab front against this Trump vision?
PRINCE TURKI AL-FAISAL, FORMER SAUDI AMBASSADOR TO U.S. AND U.K. AND FORMER SAUDI HEAD OF INTELLIGENCE: Thank you, Ms. Amanpour, for inviting me.
After hearing Mr. Barghouti I really don't know what to add to what he said, other than to say that what came out of Mr. Trump is not digestible.
I respectfully decline to add more disrespectful comments to that. But it is a fantasy to think that ethnic cleansing in the 21st century can be
condoned by a world community that stays on its behinds and does not respond to that.
The problem in Palestine is not the Palestinians, it is the Israeli occupation. And this has been clear and understood by everybody. Hence, you
have United Nations resolutions calling for the quid pro quo of land for peace from 1967 until now. The Arab Peace Initiative, of course, is based
on that, and offered Israel not only diplomatic relations, but all of the things that Israel wanted from trade, from normalization, et cetera, in
return for the establishment of a Palestinian State with its capital in East Jerusalem.
All of these things were American policy until this latest wording that Mr. Trump has chosen to use in claiming that he wants to better things when
actually it is going to turn things into more conflict and more bloodshed.
AMANPOUR: Can I draw on your long, long years of experience? You were American -- sorry, Saudi ambassador to America. What would you be telling
your capital, your king in a cable had you been in Washington last night in that position and listened to what came from the podium? What would you --
how would you have explained it?
AL-FAISAL: Well, I can tell you I'm glad I am not in that position. Because there is no way that I can explain it. It comes out of the blue.
And it is totally based on, as Mr. Barghouti said, on the Israeli position of ethnic cleansing. As you mentioned yourself, Mr. Ben-Gvir, who is the
ultimate ethnic cleanser in Palestine, he's been saying this for the last two and a half years since he joined the government. And now, he's
justifying what he said by the words of the American president. That is unacceptable.
AMANPOUR: So, what then is the next step? We've had everybody, you know, from your capital to the neighboring countries, which Trump expects to take
these, you know, millions of Palestinians reject this out of hand, say that it's illegal. We've heard the president of the Palestinian Authority. What
do you think is the next step? What do you think is going to happen?
AL-FAISAL: I'm not in government, so I don't know what my government will propose, but I would expect that there will be collective action on the
part, not only of the Arab, but Muslim world as well, along with the Europeans and other countries that believe in the two-state solution to
take up the matter and where else, but go to the United Nations.
And this is the only arena where things like that can be discussed. Unfortunately, with the American veto, I cannot expect that there will be
much success in passing any resolutions. But nonetheless, it will show that the world is opposed to this mad ethnic cleansing plan that the American
president has proposed.
[13:20:00]
AMANPOUR: You're a really smart person and understands, you know, sometimes things are said and they may hide a different meaning. Do you see
any -- is there any negotiating strategy here that you see that Trump might claim or his acolytes might claim?
AL-FAISAL: I have no idea and I cannot see anything other than a blank wall in front of me of total acceptance of the Israeli position by the
American government. It's not only the president. We've heard also supporting calls from senators and congressmen and other of the American
strata of politics supporting this call. So, that is the unfortunate position of a whole structure that has been built in the past years in
support of Israel.
AMANPOUR: As you know, and as we've said, normalization is a big strategy, a big goal of the United States, of Israel, et cetera. Certain Arab
countries have always done that, but the crown jewel is your country, Saudi Arabia. Do you see any way -- I know you're not in government, but your
king and others have said in the past that there will be no normalization without a pledge for a Palestinian State and in fact for Israel to get out
of Gaza. Do you think that still holds? Can you see normalization happening?
AL-FAISAL: Indeed. Not at all. This morning our foreign ministry issued a statement rejecting what came out of Washington in the last days. And this
has been the position of Saudi Arabia from the beginning. And even before October 7th, if you recall, when Prince Mohammed spoke with one of the
opposition television channels in America, he made clear then that the path to a clear Palestinian State is what we want to see as a result of any
talks that we have with the Americans.
And he -- we don't talk to the Israelis. We talk to the Americans. And this has been the position that has been maintained forcefully and in various
arenas, whether it is the Islamic Summit in Riyadh, the Arab Summit, the Gulf State Summit, all of the international arenas that were held and
conferences in Riyadh have stressed the fact that there must be a Palestinian State with its capital in East Jerusalem.
AMANPOUR: Prince Turki, there seems to be a lot of both in the United States and actually around the world, whether they're leaders, elected
officials or not, or whoever, people are being quite scared about these first two weeks of Trump and even before. There was a lot of what people
called anticipatory obedience, fear that he will use the might of a superpower to punish anyone, allies, adversaries, or whatever.
Does Saudi Arabia fear a backlash if -- you know, from the White House, if you don't accept this plan or your role in this plan?
AL-FAISAL: We'll have to wait and see. One of his first statements, if you remember, he mentioned that he was willing to Saudi Arabia if Saudi Arabia
were willing to invest something like $500 billion dollars in the United States. And he recalled that the first country he visited in his first term
was in Saudi Arabia.
So, if he does come here, I'm sure he will get an earful from the leadership here about the -- not just the unwisdom of what he is proposing,
but the downright unfairness and injustice that is really signified and totally placed in this proposal of ethnic cleansing from not only Gaza, but
what is happening in the West Bank, as Mr. Barghouti has said.
AMANPOUR: And finally, put on your hat as former spy chief. I heard from the U.S. former secretary of state on his way out, I interviewed him, and
he said, the Americans assess that over the 15 months of Israel's response to that savage attack on October 7th by Hamas, they assess that Hamas has
been able to recruit at least as many people as they lost in this war. From an intelligence and security perspective, what do you think will happen in
terms of recruitment, whether inside or even, I don't know, ISIS or whatever around the region if this vision takes hold?
[13:25:00]
AL-FAISAL: Well, most definitely in Palestine, it's a question of who cannot contribute themselves to operate with Hamas now. And this is the
result of the destruction and the devastation and the genocide, as Mr. Barghouti mentioned, against the people in Gaza and now in the West Bank.
And everybody has been telling the Israelis that if you repress these people, that if you punish them, if you inflict death and destruction and
mayhem and genocide on them, all you're going to do is create more opposition. That's why they want to use ethnic cleansing to get the people
out of the territory. So, their policy is clear cut. And unfortunately, we hear this reflected now in what Mr. Trump has said.
AMANPOUR: Prince Turki Al-Faisal, thank you for joining us from Riyadh, and we hope to check in with you if this, you know, continues, this
situation. Thank you very much indeed.
Finally, on this, what is in this for America, or is this simply reductio ad absurdum of a decades long U.S. policy that's never quite managed to
achieve the only currently viable option for peace, which is a two-state solution?
Daniel Levy is the president of the U.S./Middle East Project and was an adviser in the government of Prime Minister Ehud Barak, who you remember
put forward the most far-reaching Israeli proposal at the doomed Camp David Summit nearly a quarter of a century ago. Daniel Levy, welcome to the
program.
So, you've heard Dr. Barghouti, you've heard Prince Turki Al-Faisal, and, I mean, they are not mincing any words at all. From a western perspective, or
a negotiator perspective, or your knowledge of America, do you have any explanation at all for what was said from the White House last night?
DANIEL LEVY, PRESIDENT, U.S./MIDDLE EAST PROJECT: We do know that the son- in-law, Jared Kushner, has talked in those riviera terms about Gaza in the past. The Israeli press is telling us that these are ideas that Israel,
Netanyahu's confidant, Minister Ron Dermer, has taken to the White House. That's been reported quite widely in the Israeli press. We know that
sometimes this president wants to say outlandish things and say, well, maybe I'll drop this plan if you give me something else. I don't think you
can appease him on this.
So, I do think we're left with scratching our heads, trying to understand how on earth, if he's serious -- and by the way, if the main question being
asked after an American president makes a major statement is he serious? Something's already gone wrong here. But if he is serious, how on earth
does he think that this will be done?
The resilience of the Palestinian people, which we see, couldn't contrast more starkly with his words. The steadfastness of the resistance. Al-Qassam
Brigades from -- of Hamas have replenished their numbers, as you said. You're going to have to fight your way to achieving this. Are we going to
see American body bags? Is this the priority of a second term Trump administration? Because that's what it would mean.
If you want to see this happen, you're going to absolutely have to prioritize, be on the ground, and that's why I tend to think, Christiane,
it's not serious, but that doesn't mean it's not dangerous. Because the impact, first of all, as America's allies and its competitors look at this,
and they say, wow, this guy's going to overextend himself and he's going to have to keep climbing down. He's showing lack of seriousness and therefore,
weakness here.
And in Israel -- and this is extremely worrying. In Israel, the messianic extremist camp are giddy with excitement today. And these are the guys -- I
think you could call them the apartheid is not enough. Like keeping the Palestinians in this separate, unequal conditions isn't enough because
they're still physically there.
So, these Ben-Gvir, Smotrich, they've all come out, warmly embraced it, and they are saying, yes, now we can see it through. So, if -- even if America
doesn't do it, you will have a significant cohort in Israel who are saying, he has now koshered the idea that we have permanently promoted we must do
this. But if they try, if they climb up this ladder, will America be there or will they turn around and realize that this reliance on an omnipotent
U.S. is going to fall flat? And I think that is also why --
Look, there was a poll that said 80 percent of Israelis support the plan, OK? But I think many Israelis have woken up today, not out of concern for
Palestinians, but out of concern that this empowers the most extreme element in their country and therefore, they are worried about it.
AMANPOUR: So, as we're speaking, the White House press secretary is addressing the reporters, and she has said that Trump has not committed to
placing American troops on the ground, nor would we pay for it.
[13:30:00]
So, who's going to do it? Because you know that there are private contractors, American contractors there right now. It's been reported that
there are, for instance, patrolling the Netzarim Corridor, which is a very big swath of territory that Israel controls at the moment between north and
south, but it's policed by these American contractors.
When you think of if this is serious and how it will be implemented, do you have any thoughts on that?
LEVY: Well, we're used to the idea of using mercenaries. We have the examples of Black Water in past.
AMANPOUR: Oh, it didn't turn out well for America and Iraq.
LEVY: It has never turned out well, exactly. And someone has to pay for them as well. Now, lots of people profit, sure. There are always going to
be war profiteers, but who's going to pay for them? And I think this idea, and we just heard the former Saudi intelligence chief, Prince Turki Al-
Faisal, and he called this a mad ethnic cleansing plan. And we've seen Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman refer to what Israel has done in Gaza as
genocide.
So, if America thinks that these Gulf Arabs are going to pay for private contractors to fight with Hamas, to clear out Palestinians, to rebuild
this, you know what I think? That is racism. It shows the contempt with which they treat these people.
And let's also be very clear. First, this -- I don't think it's going to happen, Christiane. We've seen that Israel has not succeeded in this total
victory. But if they tried, it is not going to end with Gaza. The West Bank is the jewel in the crown for this same cohort, very significant in Israel,
and it is going to be. And that's why you're feeling so much anxiety, I think, in the region.
This is exposing those leaders. Some of these allied or putative allied states could become frontline resistance states, and that's dangerous also
for Israel.
AMANPOUR: I mean, I asked Dr. Barghouti about that, because there's a lot of that going on right now and has been for the last 15 months ever since
October 7th and before this, you know, relentless sort of attacks on various Palestinian villages and farmland.
LEVY: In the West Bank.
AMANPOUR: In the West Bank. And Trump has said that in a month, I think he said, he will announce whether he allows Israel to annex the West Bank. I
mean, does that formula even work? Can Trump, as the American president, allow Israel A land grab? I mean, how does it work?
LEVY: Let's deconstruct that, right? So, in terms of international law, of course it doesn't work. International law is not exactly the beacon that
shines on the head of the American president. It wasn't true of the last president either. So, legally, absolutely not. But what about practically?
Again, who's going to go in and fight, and kill, and be killed?
AMANPOUR: This is the Israelis taking over, annexing.
LEVY: Yes. But if Israel takes over, then precisely what Mustafa Barghouti said. And this is where it's quite a clear fault line. If you take it over,
two states is off the table. Israel's taking it off the table. America's taking it off the table.
AMANPOUR: Do you think it's off the table anyway after last night?
LEVY: I think it was off the table in significant measure with the guidelines of this government and with everything that has gone on. If
that's off the table, then you either have permanent, separate and unequal, apartheid, or you have the physical removal.
When we get into this kind of a zero-sum place, right, when ethnic cleansing is put on the table as legitimate, you're in really dangerous,
treacherous territory. Because it may start with the idea that the Palestinians should be removed, but the Israelis are making themselves
unabsorbable in this region.
When Netanyahu leaves, President Trump will still have Mexicans and Canadians and fish on his borders. Netanyahu will go home to a world in the
West Asian Middle East region, which has been watching on their social media devices, the horrors often Israelis incriminating themselves, the
horrors of what has gone on in Gaza. These people are seething. They are in no mood to say, oh, you know what? Let's normalize today.
I think normalization has been kicked into the long grass, but it could go much further. What I think we are hastening is a choice. But the people are
going to have to share this land because everything else has been taken off the table.
AMANPOUR: Can I just quickly switch gears or switch nations in the Middle East? The other regional heavyweight is Iran, which obviously has been
dealt a lot of blows by Israel and others over the last 15 months. But Trump said last night the following about Iran. I'm going to play it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They can't have a nuclear weapon. Beyond that, you know, it would be very tough if they insist on doing that. They have some of their
leadership -- I can tell you right now, and maybe you know it, maybe you don't, but there are many people at the top ranks of Iran that do not want
to have a nuclear weapon just for that very reason.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[13:35:00]
AMANPOUR: So, this was kind of ignored in the craziness over the other stuff. But this is a big departure for any American president and any
Israeli prime minister, or at least this one. They have been absolutely sticking by the notion that Iran wants a nuclear weapon and therefore, we
have to do this, that, and the other. How surprised are you that he said that?
LEVY: So, this was fascinating. You do not have a restrainer, make a deal camp inside this administration when it comes to the Palestinians. The
ecosystem there is overwhelmingly hostile to Palestinian rights, permissive when it comes to anything Israel wants to do, but you do have that division
inside the administration when it comes to Iran. And in that respect Netanyahu really didn't hear what he wanted to hear on Iran.
I think that's OK for him. He's gotten such a political boost. And you know what, Palestine is -- the Palestinians are always the most important issue
in Israel because politically it matters so much more.
But the president said three things on Iran. First of all, he said Iran is strong. The Israeli narrative is Iran is weak. That was prior to the
meeting in that short presser. Secondly, what you said, he made this statement, which absolutely accords with what the intelligence community
has been telling us for years, as you well know, that Iran has not made the decision to actually weaponize a nuclear program. And thirdly, he came out
on social media today and said, in capitals, I'm paraphrasing, we are not going to attack Iran with the Israelis.
So, on Iran, the pivot seems quite significant towards deal making. Remember, Saudi and Iran have this Chinese brokered rapprochement. It feels
to me like, America or no America, you have a region that wants to move on, and you have an Israel that wants to pull everyone back into war, and
that's a terrible place for Israel to be.
AMANPOUR: It's really extraordinary. Daniel Levy, thank you very much indeed on this incredible day of reaction and trying to figure out what's
coming from the most powerful podium in the world, which is the White House.
Meantime, in Washington, the Trump-Musk-ian demolition project against perceived enemies proceeds apace. The new Justice Department has extracted
from the FBI compliance to hand over details of 5,000 employees who worked on the January 6th investigations. Of course, they fear retribution and
even termination.
This follows President Trump's day one pardons for a thousand rioters, of course, many of them who were arrested, tried, convicted, and sentenced in
U.S. courts for their actions on that day four years ago.
Heather Shaner is a longtime public defender who has represented dozens of those individuals, and she joins Michel Martin now to tell us what she's
learned from that work.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Heather Shaner, thank you so much for talking with us.
HEATHER SHANER, SUBJECT, "THE NEW YORKER'S "PUBLIC DEFENDER" AND CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY WHO REPRESENTED JAN. 6 RIOTERS: Nice to meet you.
MARTIN: Ms. Shaner, you know how we found you, is that you were profiled in a New Yorker documentary called Public Defender. And the piece -- and of
course there was a companion piece that followed in the magazine that described your work defending some of the January 6th defendants. So, I
wanted to ask you about that. How did you come to have these clients?
SHANER: I am what's called a court appointed public defender. I'm not actually in the physical office of the federal defender. There's a small
panel of attorneys who accept cases. And there were over a thousand cases coming through the federal defender's office. So, Michelle Peterson asked
if I would take some. She was the head of the office in terms of the J6 cases. And I said I would, except I did not want to represent anyone who
had injured a police officer.
MARTIN: OK. So, did you have any hesitation at all? I know you just said that you did have a red line, and that red line was you weren't going to
represent anybody who had assaulted the police. But did you have any hesitation at all?
SHANER: On January the 6th, like everyone in D.C., I was horrified and terrified and did not plan to represent any of the rioters, but as the days
passed, and I was asked, would I do it? I decided they also required a lawyer to protect their liberty rights.
MARTIN: How did the cases come to you? I mean, how many of you had so far? I think you've had -- do I have this right, that you've had more than 40?
Is that right?
SHANER: About 45.
MARTIN: How do people receive you? Is there -- were people generally happy to hear from you or not?
SHANER: Well, a few of the people, at the very beginning, only wanted a lawyer who would represent them based on the Constitution of 1776. And they
didn't like it very much when I told them there was no United States, let alone Constitution in 1776.
[13:40:00]
Most of the defendants were terrified, because most of the people I represented were unintentional rioters and they came from the midlands and
didn't really know what they were getting into on January the 6th. And they were thrilled to have a lawyer to help them.
A lot of them were a little smarter, and they would Google and find out who I was, and when they found out that I gave books and the U.S. Constitution
and reading materials to my clients, they either really wanted to do that or they thought they needed another lawyer.
MARTIN: How did you come up with that approach, by the way, of giving your clients reading materials and things of that sort? I know that -- I saw in
the documentary, I saw that you have a lot of books. And so, clearly you are a reader yourself, but how did you come up with that idea?
SHANER: Throughout 40 years, I always gave books to my clients, because when you're incarcerated, the way you can escape your prison cell is you
can read a book and it can take you around the world, it can take you into the future, it can take you back through history, and it gave a lot of
solace to my clients.
For the January 6th people, it was an awful lot of civics education that they needed. And also, I thought they needed a little bit of information
about other people in the United States and around the world to let them know that they were not the only people who had problems.
MARTIN: But you said all of them were kind of unintentional rioters, but just say more about why you say that.
SHANER: I say that because I didn't represent members of the Oath Keepers or Proud Boys or those who had the 1776, the 3 percenters. The majority of
the people I represented came from small towns in Eastern Washington, Central Florida, Eastern Texas, Indiana, Illinois. They did not have an
understanding of what was going on inside the Capitol that day, they didn't understand the Electoral College, they misunderstood what happened on
election night when it would show Trump up and then Trump down, and they thought it was all manipulated by the deep state. And they didn't know that
the deep state didn't exist.
Most of them only had access to the internet and far-right media. And if you repeat a lie often enough, these people believed it. So, they came to
Washington because Trump said, come on, and either they came to save America, or they came because it was going to be a big party.
And when they arrived, they apparently were served a lot of alcohol and they also -- an enormous number of people at the Capitol were smoking
marijuana. So, you had people who were a little inebriated. They were all intoxicated by being surrounded by people who agreed with them rather than
family members and others who, since November, were telling them that their ideas were cockamamie. And they got all hyped-on adrenaline, went into the
capital, screamed and yelled, marched around, this is our house, this is our house. Went home.
I saw that there were a lot of rioters who had done terrible things and a large number of my clients were upset when they saw the destruction that
other individuals had engaged in and the violence.
MARTIN: OK. So, when you said that they only had access to far-right media, I mean, if they had access to the internet, they had access to
everything, which means they could have sought out other information. So, they were choosing to focus on that particular sort of point of view. So, I
don't know, why should people have sympathy for that?
[13:45:00]
SHANER: Oh, I don't say you should have sympathy for them, but you sure want to educate them. You want to listen to what they believe, question
them as to their source of information and why they believe it, and find out if they're willing to read another point of view, to be educated a
little, that there is more than one way to interpret the election, that there was more than one way to interpret what's going on in the United
States and in the world.
MARTIN: In The New Yorker documentary, and then the piece that accompanied it, they profiled two -- just two of the 45 clients that you represented,
and they had different stories. Just as briefly as you can, will you just tell me about them? I mean, start with Annie Howell.
SHANER: Annie was solicited in up -- in Central Pennsylvania by a man named Frank Scavo, who was a far-right operative. He sent hundreds of
people to Washington on January 6th in buses.
Between the election in 2020 and January 6th, Annie had been very active in politics. She met Eric Trump. She met Hannity. She collected affidavits
from people to prove there was voting fraud. And Annie was initially charged with felony and misdemeanors.
MARTIN: And Annie, as I recall, I think many people might know her name because she testified before the January 6th Committee. And so, if you
would remind people like what happened in her case.
SHANER: I was lucky to be able to negotiate down to misdemeanor plea for Annie. Judge Hogan, nonetheless, felt that her participation in the riot
was intentional, even if she had changed her views since then, and he sentenced her to 60 days in jail.
Annie, the first thing she did after we met was get a library card and started to read. And while she was incarcerated, she read a book a day. And
she said her life was totally changed. And she was a big reader now, and that she had been more educated in the years since I began to represent her
than in her entire life.
MARTIN: Your other client -- the other client that profiled on the piece was Jack Griffith. Kind of a different story. What's his story?
SHANER: Jack came to D.C. from us from Tennessee. He was pretty addicted to the internet and his goal in life was to have good abs and a lot of
followers. And he came to Washington, D.C. for the party. And he videoed himself screaming and yelling and making all kinds of noise because he
wanted to get internet followers. And he was zero political, zero informed, and he wasn't registered to vote.
Jack, and was ever only charged with misdemeanors and he was sentenced to, I think, 90 days of home confinement and he never went to jail. Jack was
offered books and he never read anything. And he still didn't vote in the last election because he's still not registered, but he's still is -- I
think he is producing a video game in honor of Trump.
MARTIN: Among the people you represented, did you see -- was there a kind of a through line there beyond the fact that you're saying that most of
them didn't really mean to -- say they didn't -- or at least the circumstances suggest they didn't really mean to be part of all of that?
SHANER: The one thing that I think characterizes the majority of the people I represented, not all of them, but a lot of them, is there was some
health issues. Almost every young man, old man, woman I dealt with, by the time we got -- you start out with pre-trial services and you find out do
they have any mental health or drug concerns, then you get to know them over a long period of time, then they're interviewed for probation, if they
plead guilty, and there's a very thorough probation investigation, including medical issues.
[13:50:00]
The two soldiers I represented had severe PTSD and depression and anxiety. The majority of the other individuals I represented had also PTSD from
childhood trauma, ADHD, did not succeed in school. Had a variety of other mental health issues, depression, anxiety, the most common one. So, that
was a factor that impacted their choices.
They were isolated and alone during COVID. They became active with political groups during that time to help remove some of the isolation. I
have one guy from Upstate New York, Syracuse, and he was alone throughout COVID until he was solicited online to a far-right chat group, and it gave
him comfort.
And they had a break in their education and had, for whatever reason, in the last several years, chosen misinformation.
MARTIN: Heather, you know that one of President Trump's first official acts upon taking office was to pardon nearly all of the 1,600 people in
connection with January 6th and he, you know, commuted others, regardless of whether they had assaulted police officers or not, regardless of whether
they were convicted of conspiracies or not, and regardless of prior, and it emerges that some of these people did have significant prior acts of
violence.
So, I don't know. How do you feel now? I mean --
SHANER: None of my clients wrote to me before January 20th and said, oh, Miss Shaner, can you get me one of those pardons? Not one. Annie, in fact,
wasn't interested and didn't want to pardon.
Initially, when the pardons were issued, I felt like all the work I had done with my clients and all the education and friendship and love we had
shared and the documentary itself, the work it was doing was invalidated, and I was very upset. I thought that the pardons are just a show by the
showmen in the Capitol, in the White House right now. And it's a very bad idea.
However, if in any way it leads towards reconciliation, then that would be good. If we can all acknowledge, as the judges did in their dismissal
orders, that what happened on January 6 happened and no dismissal order, no pardon is going to erase the day of infamy and violence, if we can agree
that it occurred and then move on, then for my clients, if there's any benefit to them, so be it.
The pardons cannot whitewash what happened on January 6th. And just as they say at the Holocaust Museum, document, talk about the truth, agree on
facts, and never forget.
MARTIN: So, before we let you go, what do you see as your role in this moment?
[13:55:00]
SHANER: Well, I don't have any more January 6th clients except those who have become my friends. But I have a lot of young men at the D.C. jail who
are charged with guns and carjacking and drugs, and I'm going to do whatever I can to keep them free of the draconian punishments that come
down on your heads when you do foolish things because you're 18 years old.
MARTIN: Well, Heather Shaner, thank you so much for talking with us.
SHANER: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: A really interesting peek behind that curtain. And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly
after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
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[14:00:00]
END
