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Amanpour
Interview with Ukrainian Novelist Andrey Kurkov; Interview with The Brooking Institution Senior Fellow Constanze Stelzenmuller; Interview with Jacobin Europe Editor David Broder; Trump Welcomes President Macros to WH. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired February 24, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
PAULA NEWTON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Three years of all-out war in Ukraine. European leaders are in Kyiv as uncertainty mounts over peace negotiations. We'll have the latest.
Plus, the fight to preserve Ukraine's cultural identity. Ukraine's best- known novelist, Andrey Kurkov, joins the program.
Then, a political shake up in Germany, as the far-right surges and mainstream conservatives claim victory. What it means for European security
and relations with the U.S.
Also, ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNETH ROTH, FORMER EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH AND AUTHOR, "RIGHTING WRONGS": I grew up with Hitler stories of what it was like to be
a young Jewish boy living under the Nazis. And that made me very aware of the evil the governments could do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: Walter Isaacson interviews Kenneth Roth, the former executive director of Human Rights Watch, about his new book, "Righting Wrongs."
Hello, everyone, and a warm welcome to the program. I'm Paula Newton in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
European leaders are gathered in Kyiv today to mark the third anniversary of Russia's war on Ukraine, and it comes as Moscow launched one of its
largest drone attacks of the war on Sunday, a sign that even as peace talks are brewing, the war still rages on.
And for President Zelenskyy, the show of European support could not come at a more crucial time after President Trump shocked allies by adopting
Russian talking points, calling President Zelenskyy a dictator and falsely claiming he started the war.
Now, Mr. Zelenskyy says he is willing to step aside as president if Ukraine is allowed to join NATO. Meantime, a deal for the U.S. to obtain rare earth
minerals is in its final stages, that's according to a Ukrainian deputy prime minister.
Our Nick Paton Walsh joins us now from Kyiv. And Nick, you continue to follow these late breaking developments. What are you hearing about the
proposed deal that is now apparently on the table, and what it could mean for Ukraine's future? And I want to specifically outline here, would it
include any security guarantees, the ones that President Zelenskyy says have to be included?
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think it's important to stress as we are understanding from Ukrainian
source familiar with the finalized draft, as they referred to it, that doesn't appear to be security guarantees for Ukraine in that. That's
something the source says the Americans have resisted.
And so, our understanding from this source of what the original -- this initial document that the Ukrainians have sent to Washington to essentially
wait for their response and hope they agree to is what they refer to as a framework for Ukrainian reconstruction. And so, essentially, I think a
positive spin on what the Trump administration has been asking for which is a lot of Ukrainian natural resources or certainly half of the revenue from
that, but in exchange potentially some U.S. investment in reconstruction and getting those resources flowing again.
The tough technical details of that, well, it seems, according to this Ukrainian source, be dealt with in later talks or later agreements. And so,
what we're initially seeing is a document that essentially seems to say, well, we want to work together. We need to have this relationship. We agree
to the concept of you taking part of Ukraine's natural resources. But the thornier parts, we'll deal with later.
This source saying that some of the more unacceptable elements have been removed for Ukraine. That may be a reference to the half trillion-dollar
figure that appeared to have been part of the Trump administration's initial push on this. That's something that President Zelenskyy was quite
categoric. He wasn't going to accept in a press conference yesterday.
But it does seem to be a slight kicking of the can down the road here, potentially that may be exactly, frankly, what this relationship needs to
kind of cap off a pretty horrific week in which the two presidents' relationships has been in free fall with something positive enough that
they can both agree to. But the suggestion from this Ukrainian source is that potentially down the line there's a Ukrainian aspiration that maybe
the presidents might meet and therefore, then be able to discuss security guarantees.
We have actually just seen some video released of a moment in which President Zelenskyy and President Trump were certainly in the same video
call in which President Zelenskyy addressed the G7 meeting, half of which was on video link.
[13:05:00]
A lot of those European leaders not long for office and certainly, the same with Canada's Justin Trudeau, who was acting very much as kind of the
chairman there. Unclear from what video we saw if President Trump and President Zelenskyy spoke directly, although Zelenskyy has said in the
latest press conference they did have a conversation.
So, a bit there, it seems, by France's Emmanuel Macron, who is in Washington and does appear in the video feed in the Oval Office next to
President Trump to perhaps ensure that there's some improvement, perhaps. He's certainly gone to Washington to press Europe security case very firmly
and the need to support Ukraine to President Trump.
So, an awful lot moving here today. I think there is a wide anxiety, it's fair to say, amongst Europeans, not something that they spoke of openly.
The talk was very much amongst the 13 world leaders who came here, continued solidarity, unity, continued assistance financially for Ukraine
on the battlefield, more sanctions announced by the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom saying it was willing to commit troops on the ground for a
peacekeeping force if certain conditions were in place and the U.S. provided a backstop of logistics.
So, a lot moving, but no doubt here at all that the U.S. relationship has significantly changed. There may be a bid right now to try and piece it
back together again, but I think a lot of shock has been rippling through Kyiv over the past week. Paula.
NEWTON: And as you point out, no clarity as to what that Ukraine-American relationship will look like in the coming weeks or months. Nick Paton Walsh
for us in Kyiv, much appreciated.
Now, as those peace talks gain steam on this third anniversary, many Ukrainians are remembering the tens of thousands that have been killed in
this war and that includes victims of atrocities like the Bucha massacre. Evidence of the mass murder there marked a turning point early on in this
war.
Fred Pleitgen was on the ground in Bucha shortly after the atrocities took place. We must warn you this footage is graphic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Images published shortly after Russian forces left Bucha show many corpses
lying in the streets. Some bodies had their hands tied behind their backs. President Biden calls what happened here a war crime.
While visiting Bucha, Ukraine's president vowed to bring those behind the violence against civilians to justice.
These are war crimes, he says, and they will be recognized by the world as genocide. You are here, and you can see what happened. We know that
thousands of people were killed and tortured, teared limbs, raped women, and killed children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: Chilling video there. Now, the Kremlin denied Russia was behind any atrocities in Bucha. Meantime, the International Criminal Court opened
an investigation in April of 2022.
Now, as we've just seen, it is, in fact, Ukrainian civilians who have suffered the most in this conflict. And through years of war now, many are
also fighting to preserve their country cultural heritage. Andrey Kurkov is one of Ukraine's best-known novelists, and he's chronicled his country at
war. And we certainly welcome you to the program three years into this conflict.
We've just been outlining how tens of thousands of Ukrainian lives have been lost. We've seen these unimaginable atrocities take place. Millions,
we have to say, now refugees in Europe and beyond. You've chronicled, as we've said, this war in your writings. How do you look back on these three
years and what does this reality look like now for those living and I'll say fighting at this hour in Ukraine?
ANDREY KURKOV, UKRAINIAN NOVELIST: Well, it's a very tough time, especially politically because of the promised negotiations with Putin. But
generally, I mean, Ukraine is remembering now the victims of this war, and among the victims there are more than 100 writers and poets. And several
days ago, a book that was never finished by Victoria Amelia that was published in English and in French. So, we are living in the epoch of the
unfinished books, unfinished poems. And I mean, we have more and more people of culture that the number of damaged and destroyed libraries is
almost 800. So, I don't want to give you more and more data about this.
But generally, I mean, it's a very serious situation. And if you start thinking about reconstruction of Ukraine it will take decades to get back
material part of the country. But spiritually and psychologically, I mean, Ukrainians will remain traumatized and damaged for many years to come.
NEWTON: That is to be sure, and such personal loss in so many families right across Ukraine. As you say, though, this is a time when many say they
are working to try and end this war.
[13:10:00]
The U.S. has taken a surprising and some would say shocking turn in foreign policy. Now, Andrey, before we continue, I do want to let you know that
Trump now says that everything is on the table in this negotiation that, indeed, perhaps America will accept European peacekeepers on the ground in
Ukraine to make sure that Russia abides by any peace terms. How do you believe Ukrainians are reacting to all of this from the White House, and do
you believe there is a sentiment of betrayal here, or do they still hope that President Trump will be able to make a deal?
KURKOV: I think actually the hopes of the Ukrainians now are with Europe, with France, with Germany after the elections I mean, U.S. is considered a
traitor by many of Ukrainians and especially after President Trump refused to call Putin or Russia aggressor.
Now, actually, there was a story with the two documents prepared for United Nations, one by Ukraine, one for the -- by United States where actually
Russia is not really called the aggressor and the side that attacked Ukraine. So, actually, it looks like the U.S. is now treating Ukraine and
Russia as equal sides in this war, which is completely unacceptable by Ukrainians.
NEWTON: Do you believe that the American president believes that's the only way to get to a deal? Some have suggested that it is shrewd
negotiation on his part and not a betrayal.
KURKOV: Well, we will see the end result. But obviously, I mean, when he is talking to Putin and his first telephone conversation, indeed, was so
friendly that people are thinking about the past business of President Trump in Russia, because, I mean, he was there from 1987, he met Putin, he
is now treated in Russian media very friendly. So, now, actually, Russian bloggers are told not to criticize and not to call America names. And the
main enemies are now, again, Poland and Ukraine, on the list of the enemies of Russian people.
So, yes, maybe he is so shrewd, maybe he will achieve something, but definitely at the expense of the trust from the Ukrainian side to the
States.
NEWTON: And we do hear your words that you do believe that Ukraine has been betrayed. I do want to turn to your work on writing about this world
war and chronicling it in such personal terms. It can only be personal for Ukrainians. You know, what stories have, by turns, shocked you but also
inspired you most through this?
KURKOV: Well, there are thousands of real stories. So, I mean, you don't need to invent anything. I mean, in the last three years, I have lots of
events, which are still in front of my eyes. First of all, the beginning of the full-scale invasion when we had to escape from Kyiv and we were in the
mountains with minus 15 centigrade in the night on the 26th of February and we were held by people we didn't know and we were put up in the hostel,
which was abandoned from the Soviet times, et cetera.
But now, you know, so many stories from the soldiers and from people who are going, for example, to besieged Pokrovsk to bring the -- and evacuate
people living in the cellars and in the ruins. And actually, even some animal activists are going there to find the homeless cats and dogs whose
owners are on the run or they were killed.
So, I mean, there are lots of stories of this humanity of the very, very sincere and direct involvement of people in the risky situations in order
to help other Ukrainians, in order to save as many lives of civilians as possible.
NEWTON: And I'm sure those stories are inspiring to so many. We know it is well that hundreds of artists have died in this war, and yet, you and
others have tried to make sure that Ukrainian culture continues to survive, with some even saying that Ukrainian culture itself is under a golden age
right now. People are flocking to museums and theaters, you know, purchasing and reading Ukrainian language works.
Why do you believe this preservation of Ukrainian culture is so important, even as the sacrifice on the frontline and beyond is just so critical at
this stage?
KURKOV: Well, I think the Ukrainians are sure that the culture of Ukraine, the language of Ukraine are the targets in this war also. I mean, like the
-- in the first days of the war, two museums were destroyed by missiles.
[13:15:00]
Maria Prymachenko museum, one of the best-known naive artists of Ukraine, and the Museum of the Philosopher Hryhorii Skovoroda (INAUDIBLE) Kharkiv.
So, since then, actually, lots of museums, universities, and other cultural establishments were destroyed or damaged. And people are actually doing
fundraising and sending money in order to repair it, to restore it, or to save what is left inside and to take it away.
Like I've the neighbors of the Museum of Maria Prymachenko were walking into the burning museum to take out the pictures that were hanging there in
order just to save them as many as possible.
NEWTON: Extraordinary stories that we have seen time again. Now, since the war started, there have been efforts, and you continue to talk about those,
efforts to suppress Russian heritage and culture in Ukraine with the 2023 law of decolonization being a prime example of that.
You have also said though, and you said earlier this month that, and I read your words here, that unfortunately, we needed a war in Ukraine to show
that Ukraine is different from Russia, to the point that Russia is trying to destroy it because of that very difference. What did you mean by that?
Because to some, those words might seem shocking.
KURKOV: Well, Putin said many times that actually Ukrainians do not exist. They are Russians, but they just want to be different. So, I mean, for the
centuries, the goal of Russia was to assimilate Ukrainians.
Ukrainians are mentally different. I mean, they never had royal family. They are individualists. They prefer freedom to stability, freedom to
money. Whereas, Russia was always a monarchy and Russians were always collective and they were loyal to the czars. When they were unhappy with
czars, they would kill one and love another one.
So -- and of course, I mean, the Christianity came to our lands from Constantinople to Kyiv. So, for Putin's Russian world, Russian empire
without Kyiv is unimaginable. And there are lots of reasons. I mean, like, Nikolai Gogol, the most famous Ukrainian writer who wrote humorous and
satiric novels, I mean, who wrote in Russian, who became very popular in Russian Empire, he created fashion for everything Ukrainian with his novels
in St. Petersburg 180 years ago.
And after, actually, his novels -- rich people of St. Petersburg wanted to have Ukrainian servants, Ukrainian embroidered shirts, Ukrainian singers,
Ukrainian cooks. So, I mean, there are lots of small details which probably are the reason why so many Russians are crazy that Ukraine is independent.
They support Putin's effort to integrate Ukraine, to make it, again, a province of Russian Empire.
NEWTON: Now, in the epilogue of your book published last year, "Our Daily War," you wrote that you still believe Ukraine will win. Andrey, what does
winning look like right now for Ukraine?
KURKOV: Well, the word victory changed meaning several times since the beginning of the full-scale invasion. First, actually, we were dreaming of
liberating the occupied territories, getting Crimea back, et cetera. Now, probably, the victory means that Ukraine will remain independent state. It
will remain a strong country and it will become a member of European Union.
And then, actually, I don't see any other future for Ukraine than European, because in the other situation, Ukraine will not be able to survive as a
country, as a state, as an independent nation with its own language, culture, traditions, and history.
NEWTON: Andrey, that is certainly the vision that we have heard here from so many Ukrainians over the last three years, and we leave it there now as
we continue to follow the latest news. Appreciate it. Thanks so much.
KURKOV: Thank you.
NEWTON: We go to Germany now, where the country made a seismic shift to the right after nationwide elections on Sunday. It also saw the far-right
AfD surge to second place.
The likely next chancellor, Friedrich Merz, laid out his vision for Germany and Europe, which includes European unity and independence from the United
States. So, what does this election mean for Germany? For Europe, and of course, for Ukraine. David Broder is a historian who has studied the far-
right movement in Europe, and Constanze Stelzenmuller is an expert on Germany and international relations at Brookings. And I welcome you both to
the program.
You know, Germans came out in their highest numbers. The turnout was incredible, with voters concerned mostly about immigration, a stagnating
economy, but also, as well, Germany's place in the world. As we just outlined, the AfD now the second largest party will actually remain outside
of this coalition and that is because they will remain -- that firewall will remain in place.
[13:20:00]
Constance, what message did Germans send to their politicians and can Mr. Merz address their concerns, even though he now says he's going to build
this coalition with just two centrist parties?
CONSTANZE STELZENMULLER, SENIOR FELLOW, THE BROOKING INSTITUTION: Well, he's building it with one cent other centrist party, the Social Democrats,
who currently are being a little bit coy about negotiating, but I don't think they have a lot of choice.
I think the messages that nearly 80 percent of Germany's 59 million voters, and as you were saying earlier, an extraordinarily high voter participation
of 84 percent that hasn't been seen in 30 years, said that they wanted centrist democratic parties to govern Germany with one distinctive
exception that I'm sure David Broder will comment on, which is that Die Linke, a left party was revived from a near death situation, whereas its
split off, the Bundnis Sahra Wagenknecht failed to enter parliament because it didn't get across the 5 percent threshold.
The bad news of this is that 20 percent voted for the extreme right AfD, one of the most overtly hard right parties in Europe, and the numbers in
Eastern German states are even higher, up to 37 percent.
NEWTON: And that is the truth of what that vote looked like, and especially among young men, many voted for the AfD. David, barely one in
three Germans, it has to be said, actually voted for Mr. Merz. What kind of mandate does that give him? He's campaigned for reducing bureaucracy,
lowering taxes for businesses, but also, of course, slashing social welfare benefits. What kind of chancellor will he be, especially compared to Olaf
Scholz or Angela Merkel before him?
DAVID BRODER, EUROPE EDITOR, JACOBIN: I think it's a difficult moment for Friedrich Merz because this isn't the kind of majority or the kind of
mandate that he might have expected at the beginning of this campaign with such a weak outgoing government.
It's possible that he will now make a coalition with the Social Democrats and perhaps also with the Greens, but he'll be pretty aware that he's going
to have right-wing pressure from the AfD. You know, they're going to be saying, well, we should have an alliance of all right-wing forces. They're
going to be saying that Merz is kowtowing to left0wing parties, and that's a narrative that we're already seeing whipped up by the likes of J. D.
Vance, Elon Musk, and so on.
This government also will have to take responsibility for a very different international picture, particularly as Merz himself has said, you know,
Germany is going to have to play a role in Europe being more independent of the United States and perhaps increased defense spending, perhaps changing
things like the rules on the debt break, so Germany's constitutional limit on borrowing in order to facilitate that.
And, you know, that's going to create problems in his own coalition if he has to rely on other parties. But also, the AfD, I think, have proven very
adept at criticizing the Christian Democrats from multiple angles, both further right on immigration, calling for a harder line also appealing to
some sort of social discontent, particularly in the east, while also being a kind of free marketeer party with libertarian elements.
So, I think we should probably consider there's a good chance that this government might attach to last a full term or at least there's going to be
considerable pressure from its right, from the AfD.
NEWTON: Yes.
BRODER: Quite right that, you know, this is a party that is not that all Germans or Germans in general, very fair, but they're going to claim that
they're being ignored.
NEWTON: Yes. And, David, as you said, that is at odds with what Mr. Merz says, he wants Germany to be the pillar of Europe. He is seen, in fact, as
a strong supporter of transatlantic relations. He even spent a decade heading what's called the Atlantic Bridge, an association seeking to foster
German-American relations. A bit ironic, what we have today, because he is saying that Europe will now need to achieve, in his words, independence
from the United States. Listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRIEDRICH MERZ, CHRISTIAN DEMOCRATIC UNION LEADER (through translator): I would never have believed that I would ever have to think something like
this, let alone say it. But all the signals we are getting from the U.S. indicate that their interest in Europe is clearly waning, and the
willingness to get involved in Europe is decreasing. Nevertheless, I hope that we can convince the Americans that it is in our mutual interest that
we continue to have good transatlantic relations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[13:25:00]
NEWTON: You know, Constanze, he not only has to think it and say it, he has to do something about it. What kind of maneuverability will he have,
again, as David just outlined, the difficulty of the coalition before him?
STELZENMULLER: Yes, I think David's description was perfectly accurate, and I, too, think there is a real risk that Merz might turn out to be a
transitional figure. In many ways, he is a part of a generation of transatlanticists, and in Germany that maybe on its way out and in that
sort of he rather resembles Joe Biden. That said, I think his Europeanism and his transatlanticism is utterly sincere, as was Biden's of course. The
problem is that the American side of this bargain has just flipped to the other side as it were and is making noises that are distinctly hostile
towards Europe and Germany.
I was in Munich myself at the Munich Security Conference and was traveling before that was at NATO and the E.U. and afterwards was traveling among
other places in Sweden. And I can say with some conviction and experience that Europeans are gobsmacked and shell-shocked about this.
I want to add one point to what David Broder was saying, which is that the AfD, in what is clearly already a bid to depict the emeritus (ph) Christian
Democrats as somehow betrayers of true conservatism and very much in line with what the vice president of the United States said in Munich is
following the pattern of most hard right parties in Europe who have been attacking the center right parties and trying to hollow them out and to
fragment them.
I think the difference is that the AfD is one of Europe's most overtly hard right parties and is, you know, overtly in league with identitarian and
neo-Nazi groups especially in the eastern states. And that makes it -- it gives it slightly less room for maneuver than other more, shall we say,
sophisticated right-wing parties have been, such as Marine Le Pen's Rassemblement National in France, who have managed to persuade a much
larger segment of French voters that they indeed are the future of conservatism.
NEWTON: I understood that in France, perhaps, they have pulled to the center, and in Germany, that does not seem to be the case so far. David,
you study this. We repeat that the AfD won 20.8 percent of the vote. Again, very popular among many young people, especially in the eastern end of
Germany. This, again, is the best result by a German far-right party since World War II, obviously significant.
How do you see it functioning as the main opposition in Germany? And will that necessarily move this coalition to the right, especially when it comes
to issues like immigration?
BRODER: Well, already before the election, after the terrorist attack in Schonberg and Bavaria, we saw Friedrich Merz put forward a motion on
curbing immigration, which was widely portrayed as a kind of political stunt really designed to show a kind of hard line on migration before the
election, perhaps to win over AfD voters and that motion passed thanks to AfD votes.
So, in government, of course, his action is going to be much more limited, and I think it will be hard for him as chancellor to flood with the AfD in
even that kind of way. In terms of its opposition, I mean, as Constanze mentioned earlier, one of the other facts of this election was the modest
but real rise of a left-wing force.
And as you mentioned, the youth vote for the AfD was very strong among young men, but that's totally polarized by gender. The young women voted
very strongly for the left. So, I think that there, you know, in general, we can say that there's signs that the main parties don't have the kind of
grip on voters they used to. They can't offer the same kind of promise of meritocracy, of people having good career prospects ahead of them,
particularly with the economy being like it has been the last couple of years, but political reactions to that can play out in different ways.
So, you know, the far-right, the AfD, is certainly the strongest force in mobilizing that, particularly, but not only in East Germany, and
particularly in rural areas. So, I think what's difficult for left-wing parties and for more mainstream parties in general is to try and rebuild
that kind of confidence in politics, in the public realm, in public services, that kind of thing, at a time when politics is already very
polarized and when the likely incoming coalition looks quite shaky.
[13:30:00]
I think what AfD is able to offer and if -- you know, if we -- the reasons why people say they voted for them, those are people who often say that
they have, you know, struggling with inflation and getting to the end of the month, and that kind of thing. But really, the core galvanizing thing
is immigration. You know, that's the message that they're going to hammer on. That's why they say that people are being ignored and overlooked,
because they whip up this idea, which is that, you know, the economy is bad because of migration.
And I think it's very dangerous for the more mainstream parties to try and sort of play it that or half agree, rather than confront it more
courageously.
NEWTON: David Broder, we will leave it there for now. Constanze Stelzenmuller, thank you so much to both of you for your insights.
Appreciate it.
We do want to take you now to the White House, where President Macron is attending talks with President Trump. Here are some of their remarks from
just a few moments ago.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Well, thank you very much. We very much appreciate the attention. Today's a big day in that we had a G7, and
President Macron who is a very special man in my book. We were together, we did it together, and I think a lot of progress has been made. We've had
some very good talks with Russia. We've had some very good talks with others. And we're trying to get the war ended with Russia and Ukraine, and
I think we've come a long way in a short period of weeks, and the president's been very helpful, also.
And we're also talking about trade, various trade deals that we will be doing with France, and we'll be discussing a little bit further, then we'll
have a press conference later on. You can ask some questions. We'll be having a press conference in a little while. We're going to have lunch with
the entire French staff, and we look forward to it.
And again, the relationship has been very special with France and very special with this gentleman on my right. And we look forward to keeping
that going for a long period of time. Thank you very much. Thank you.
EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you. Thank you. I want to thank Mr. President for his hospitality. We had a good
discussion this morning for the G7 here and for the third year of this war in Ukraine. And I think our common objective clearly is to build peace and
a solid and long-standing peace. And this is what we will discuss, obviously, because I have great respect for bravery and the resistance of
Ukrainian people. And we do share the objective of peace, but we are very aware of the necessity to have guarantees and solid peace in order to
stabilize the situation.
I'm here as a friend because through centuries we've been friends and we are personal friends, as you mentioned it, because we work very well
together. And I think the U.S. and France always stands on the same side, the right side, I would say, of history. And this is exactly what's at
stake today.
And this is a very important moment for Europe as well, and I'm here as well after discussions with all my colleagues to say that Europe is willing
to step up, to be a stronger partner, to do more in defense and security for its continent, and as well to be reliable partner and to be engaged on
trade, economy, investment in a lot of topics. So, I'm very excited by the discussion we will have and obviously, we will follow up.
And I want to thank you again, Mr. President, for your presence for Notre Dame de Paris. It meant a lot for French people and I want to thank you for
that.
TRUMP: That's the cathedral, and they've done a fantastic job. The president's done a great job in bringing it back. That was a terrible
thing, like, what, five years ago?
MACRON: Yes.
TRUMP: Watching that burn was a very horrible sight. And you've done a fantastic job in bringing it back. So, I congratulate you. Thank you for
being here.
MACRON: Thank you for inviting me. Thank you.
TRUMP: Anybody want to ask a question or two, or is that a foolish question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, Mr. President.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- critical minerals deal.
TRUMP: It looks like we're getting very close. The deal's being worked on. We're, I think, getting very close to getting an agreement where we get our
money back over a period of time. But it also gives us something where I think it's very beneficial to their economy, to their -- to them as a
country. But you know, we're in for $350 billion. How we got there, I don't know, but that's a lot of money. A lot of money invested and we had nothing
to show for it. And it was the Biden administration's fault.
[13:35:00]
The Europeans are in for about $100 billion, and they do it as a form -- in the form of a loan. And the Europeans have been great on this issue. They
understood it wasn't fair, and we were able to work something out. But with the Ukrainians, I think I can say that we're very close.
Scott's around here someplace, and I think we could say that we're very -- hi, Scott. I think we're very close. Do you have something to say about
that, Scott?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are very close. One yard line.
TRUMP: All right. What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would a mineral deal include a security guarantee for Ukraine?
TRUMP: Well, it'll be -- Europe is going to make sure that nothing happens. I don't think it's going to be much of a problem. I think once we
settle there's going to be no more war in Ukraine. And you're not going to have -- it's not going to be a very big problem. That's going to be the
least of it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, we're hearing from some Greek media reporting that the U.S. has agreed to shut down a military base in Greece
that's been a logistical hub for NATO.
TRUMP: That who shut down?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That the U.S. has agreed to shut it down at the request of Turkey and Russia. Is that at all true?
TRUMP: Marco, do you have anything to say about that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We'll see. Sir, that's a no.
TRUMP: Is it a no?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a no, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not a correct story.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, how do you react to people in Europe who say that you are abandoning Ukraine and that you are going to sacrifice the
security of Ukraine by making a deal with Vladimir Putin?
TRUMP: You know, we're helping Ukraine like nobody's ever helped Ukraine before. And I can say this, if I didn't become president, Ukraine would
right now still be at a level where there would be no even thinking about a peace. And it was -- it's a sad thing that this happened. This would have
never happened this war if I were president, zero chance. And it has happened.
So, my function is to get you out of the war, get them out of the war, let them live. It's a bloody war. It's a horrible war. Thousands of people are
being killed a week. And I would say Russia, maybe 700,000 people. I think Ukraine, probably a similar number, and that's not talking about the towns
and the cities that have been blown up, that's talking about soldiers. This has been a horrible, bloody mess, and we're going to get it solved. We got
to get it solved.
And you know, we're not talking about America's soldiers, soldiers from this country, we're talking about Russia and Ukraine. But on a humanitarian
basis, we have to get this very, very bloody, savage problem solved.
And I will say this also, it could lead to World War III if it's not solved. You know, there'll be a point at which it's not going to stop at
those two countries already. There's such involvement from other countries. And it could really lead to a very big war, World War III. And we're not
going to let that happen either.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you support the idea to send European troops in Ukraine to back the ceasefire?
TRUMP: Yes, European troops may go into Ukraine as peacemakers. So, when the agreement is done, they can watch that everything is followed properly.
I don't think that's going to be a problem. And a lot of the European countries -- I think I don't want to speak for France, but I know that the
president's talked about doing that also. I think that'll be a very good day when we can go in as peacekeepers as opposed to what's going on right
now with everybody being killed. So --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will they have U.S. backings? Those troops going into Ukraine, will they have U.S. backings from U.S. troops?
TRUMP: Well, we're going to have a backing of some kind. And obviously, the European countries are going to be involved, and I don't think you're
going to need much backing. I think that's not going to be a problem. Once an agreement is signed, Russia's going to get back to its business, and
Ukraine and Europe are going to get back to their business. I don't think it's going to be a problem.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you talk about DOGE?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).
TRUMP: What?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will you meet with President Zelenskyy soon?
TRUMP: I will be meeting with President Zelenskyy. In fact, he may come in this week or next week to sign the agreement, which would be nice. I'd love
to meet him. Would meet at the Oval Office. So, the agreement's being worked on now. They're very close to a final deal. It will be a deal with
rare earths and various other things. And he would like to come, as I understand it, here to sign it, and that would be great with me.
I think they did have to get it approved by their council or whoever might approve it, but I'm sure that will happen. Meeting with President Putin
also. Yes. I don't know when we speak, but we're trying to get this thing worked out. But yes, at some point I'll be meeting with President Putin
too.
MACRON: I can (INAUDIBLE) French.
[13:40:00]
MACRON (through translator): President Trump has already spoken about this just a moment ago. This is exactly what we want to do. We want to build
peace in Ukraine. As President Trump mentioned, there already 1 million death and wounded in Ukraine since the war began. We had a ceasefire in the
past that was not respected. This was under the Minsk Agreements 1 and 2.
President Trump, as he said, will be meeting with President Zelenskyy to sign a deal on rare earths, and we are pleased to see this very strong
American involvement. Europe, of course, also stands ready to support Ukraine in various ways, supporting its military. And we don't want to
preempt any sort of discussions that are currently underway, but we do share the same objective of building this lasting peace.
TRUMP: I just want to tell you a little story. So, we're at the Eiffel Tower having dinner with your wonderful wife and with my wonderful wife and
we came out and he started speaking the French deal. And we didn't have an interpreter and he was going on and on and on and I was just nodding yes,
yes, yes. And he really sold me out because I got back the next day and I read the papers I said, that's not what we said. He's a smart customer I
will tell you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, if you called Zelenskyy a dictator, would you use the same words regarding Putin?
TRUMP: I don't use those words lightly. I think that we're going to see how it all works out. Let's see what happens. I think we have a chance of a
really good settlement between various countries. And, you know, you're talking about Europe and you're talking about Ukraine as part of that whole
situation. The other side has a lot of support also. So, let's see how it all works out. It might work out.
Look, you can never make up lives. The one thing you can -- you can make up the money, but you can't make up the lives. A lot of lives lost. I think
probably a lot more lives than people are talking about. It's been a rough war, but I think we're close to getting it solved.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A question about DOGE, sir?
TRUMP: Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think that DOGE could benefit from more streamlined communications? There was that e-mail telling employees to give
five things that they've done last week. Agency heads then told people to ignore it, but Elon Musk --
TRUMP: You're talking about the last e-mail that was sent?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
TRUMP: Where he wanted to know what you did this week. You know why he wanted that, by the way? I thought it was great. Because we have people
that don't show up to work, and nobody even knows if they work for the government. So, by asking the question, tell us what you did this week,
what he's doing is saying, are you actually working?
And then, if you don't answer, like, you're sort of semi fired or you're fired, because a lot of people are not answering because they don't even
exist. They're trying to find -- that's how badly various parts of our government were run by, and especially by this last group. So, what they're
doing is they're trying to find out who's working for the government, are we paying other people that aren't working and, you know, where's all that
-- where's the money gone?
We have found hundreds of billions of dollars of fraud so far. And we've just started. We're actually going to Fort Knox to see if the gold is
there, because maybe somebody stole the gold. Tons of gold.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some of the agency --
TRUMP: So, I think it was -- actually, there was a lot of genius in sending it. We're trying to find out if people are working. And so, we're
sending a letter to people, please tell us what you did last week. If people don't respond, it's very possible that there is no such person or
they're not working.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some of the agency heads instructed their employees not to respond because they were waiting on further guidance. But Elon
Musk's tweet said, a failure to respond would be taken as a resignation. So, there's been a disconnect in communication.
TRUMP: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you concerned at all about that?
[13:45:00]
TRUMP: Only -- no, no, no. That was done in a friendly manner. Only things such as perhaps Marco at State Department where they have very confidential
things or the FBI where they're working on confidential things. And they don't mean that in any way combatively with Elon, they're just saying there
are some people that you don't want to really have them tell you what they're working on last week. But other than that, I think everyone thought
it was a pretty ingenious idea.
We have to find out where these people are, who are they. And we said, if you don't respond, we assume you're not around.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that holds? That stands?
TRUMP: And you're not getting paid anymore too. So, you know, we're doing a real job. And we just had a poll come out, I guess the Harvard poll,
saying that it's massively popular what we're doing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, do you still believe in NATO, in the alliance between Europe and America in NATO?
TRUMP: NATO is very much involved in this. When I first got elected, at the very beginning, first term, I got hundreds of billions of dollars put
into NATO. NATO had no money, because they hadn't paid for years. And I said, look, if you don't pay, we're not going to be a part of NATO, we're
not going to protect, we're not going to do what we're supposed to do.
And we took in hundreds of billions of dollars into NATO. Now, NATO is a good thing if it's done properly and if it's used properly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, in these days (INAUDIBLE) about the tariffs in Canada, in Mexico, and in Europe. I want to know what is your
idea about Italy, if you want to make the same thing?
TRUMP: About what? Can you talk up a little louder?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In these days --
TRUMP: No, louder. Can you talk a little louder? You have a beautiful voice, but you're not --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In these days you speak --
TRUMP: Where are you from?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Italy.
TRUMP: From Italy. Oh, I love it. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to make -- I want to know if you have the same idea with Italy about tariffs.
TRUMP: Well, look, I love Italy, and Italy is a very important nation. We have a wonderful woman as your leader, and she was on the conversation
today, one that we had, the G7. And no, I think Italy is doing very well. I think Italy's got very strong leadership with Giorgia.
Any other questions over here? Yes, ma'am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you (INAUDIBLE) on the major economic development transactions between U.S. and Russia? Can you --
TRUMP: With respect to what, Russia?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, and (INAUDIBLE) transaction which will take place between the United States and Russia?
TRUMP: Yes, we're trying to do some economic development deals. They have a lot of things that we want. And we'll see. I mean, I don't know if that
will come to fruition, but we'd love to be able to do that if we could.
You know, they have massive rare earth. It's a very large. It's actually the largest in terms of land, it's by far the largest country. And they
have very valuable things that we could use and we have things that they could use and it would be very good if we could do that. I think it would
be a very good thing for world peace and lasting peace.
Well, I mean, our first -- by far, first thing that we want to do, the first element of the overall transaction is ending the war. But if -- just
as we're doing with Ukraine, if we could do some economic development in terms of Russia and getting things that we want, something like that would
be possible. Yes. Yes, go ahead, please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you explain the rationale in having U.S. vote against the U.N. resolution that Ukraine proposed and also the U.S.
proposed?
TRUMP: I would rather not explain it now, but it's sort of self-evident, I think.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, first about increasing the tariffs on product from the European Union. Is that still something (INAUDIBLE) today?
TRUMP: Well, it's not increasing, it's reciprocal. So, whatever they charge us, we're charging them. So, it's not a question of increasing. If
they charge us 20 percent, we charge them 20 percent. If they charge us 30 or 40 percent than we do that too. So, that would be on European Union. But
that really would be respect -- with respect to everybody. It's reciprocity.
So, reciprocal, whatever they charge us, we charge them. Nobody has a problem. Even you. I see you don't have a problem anymore, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, are you thinking of going to Moscow soon, maybe in May for the 9th of May for the anniversary?
TRUMP: I mean, not soon, but I would be -- certainly, if this all gets settled down, which I think it will, sure, I would go there. And he'd come
here too.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the 9th of May for the -- on the (INAUDIBLE)?
TRUMP: I don't know the 9th of May. No, I don't. I think that's pretty soon. But no, at the appropriate time, I would go to Moscow. I think the
war could end soon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How soon?
TRUMP: Within weeks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Weeks?
TRUMP: Yes, I think so. Right? Don't you think so?
[13:50:00]
I'd like to ask, have you? I think we could end it within weeks, if we're smart. If we're not smart, it'll keep going and we'll keep losing young,
beautiful people that shouldn't be dying. And we don't want that. And remember what I said, this could escalate into a Third World War, and we
don't want that either.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President your envoy, Steve Witkoff, suggested a temporary ceasefire in the conflict, but the Russian government has denied
that out of hand. Are you worried that they're not dealing in good faith?
TRUMP: No, I think they, at some point, will agree to that. I think they probably wanted to. And I think once you have a ceasefire, it's going to
end. Because they're not going from a ceasefire back to war. I think people have had -- they're full.
I'm just glad I was able to help because there was no communication with Russia until I came along. Biden didn't communicate. He couldn't
communicate with his own child. So, Biden didn't communicate. He couldn't - - it was terrible. He hadn't spoken to Putin three years. You're trying to end the war. People are being killed. Every week, thousands of people are
being killed, soldiers in this case, mostly, also towns, you know, as missiles go in and back and forth.
Now, it's a shame. This should have never happened. This very sad. This going to go down in the history books. This a very sad moment because that
should have been stopped. That should have never started. And if it did start, it should have stopped the first week, not three years later. OK?
MACRON: (Speaking in foreign language).
TRUMP: By the way, that is the most beautiful language. I have no idea what he's saying, but that is the most comes elegant --
MACRON: She would translate.
TRUMP: -- beautiful language. Go ahead, please.
MACRON (through translator): This a question that was asked by several. What we need to do is make sure that we are building peace. We have to --
TRUMP: Can you speak, please?
MACRON (through translator): We have deterrence capabilities that have been restored. As President Trump said, there won't be any more problems.
We've seen the U.S. re-engagement and the message that that sends to Mr. Putin.
We have deterrence, which will allow a truce to take place. Verification of that truce and then a peace agreement can be put in place so that we can
start rebuilding Ukraine with security guarantees, and we have a role to play in that.
Again, I'm not preempting any discussions, but we've spoken about Ukraine's sovereignty and that has been a subject of discussion between the U.S. and
Ukraine. We have also been working closely with our British partners this week. We've shared this information with other European countries and we
are ready and willing to provide those security guarantees, which could perhaps include troops, but they would be there to maintain peace. They
would not be along the frontlines. They would not be part of any conflict. They would be there to ensure that the peace is respected.
[13:55:00]
Our assistance may include other capacity building, perhaps for the military. We see U.S. credibility here. We each have our role to play, but
it will be done in a united fashion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, do you think that Ukraine should give up part of his territory?
TRUMP: Well, we're going to see. It's a negotiation that's just starting and, you know, they've been fighting and there's been a lot of land that's
been taken. So, we'll have to see how that works out as part of the negotiation.
I will say there was great unity in that room today, via Skype or whatever, but it was great. Tremendous unity today in that room with the other
countries. I was very impressed by it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) territories back? Can they take it back what they lost in the past few years?
TRUMP: That's not an easy thing to do, is it? Right? It's not easy. Asking whether or not you could take back the land that they lost. And I say that,
yes, perhaps some of it, yes, I hope so. But that's not an easy thing to do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Macron, on the --
TRUMP: It's going to be something we're talking about.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will you convince Vladimir Putin to accept the European troops as peacekeeper, do you think?
TRUMP: Yes, he will accept that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He will accept that?
TRUMP: I've asked him that question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You talked to him?
TRUMP: I've asked him that question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is France going to lift the block on the Trans- Siberian?
TRUMP: Look, if we do this deal, he's not looking for more war. He doesn't mind. But I've specifically asked him that question. He has no problem with
it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is France going to lift the block on the $300 billion in frozen Russian assets in Belgium? France has opposed unfreezing it to
pay Ukraine and compensate the U.S. for its support. Is France going to lift its opposition to that?
MACRON: This is -- I mean, we speak about frozen assets, we already used them to back precisely the loans negotiated at the G7. And it's part of the
sanctions. So, it will depend on the follow up of the discussions.
But clearly, we respect international law. It's just frozen assets now. You can take the proceeds of the frozen assets, but you cannot take the assets
themselves, because it's not respecting international law, and we want to respect international law.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How is one different than the other? If you can take the proceeds from it, how can you not take the assets?
MACRON: Because it's very different. You keep the assets, you take the proceeds because they are paralyzed in a certain way. You take the proceeds
during the war time, but you keep the assets and it's part of the negotiation at the end of the war.
Because, I mean, this war costed all of us a lot of money. And this the responsibility of Russia because the aggressor is Russia.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Should the U.S. be compensated?
MACRON: So, at the end of the day, this frozen asset should be part of the negotiation. All in all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will France support the U.S. being compensated?
MACRON: I support the idea to have Ukraine first being compensated because they are the one to have lose a lot of their fellow citizens and being
destroyed by these attacks. Second, all of those who paid for could be compensated, but not by Ukraine, by Russia. Because they was the one to
aggress.
TRUMP: Again, just so you understand, Europe is loaning the money to Ukraine. They get their money back.
MACRON: No, in fact, to be frank, we paid 60 percent of the total effort. And it was through -- like the U.S., loans, guarantee, grants, and we
provided real money. To be clear, we have $230 billion frozen assets in Europe, Russian assets, but this not as a collateral of a loan because this
not our belonging. So, they are frozen.
If, at the end of the day, in the negotiation we will have with Russia, they're ready to give it to us, super. It will be loaned at the end of the
day, and Russia would have paid for that.
TRUMP: If you believe that, it's OK with me. If they get their money back, we don't. And now we do. But you know, that's only fair.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) should be the one that pays everybody back, are they the aggressors?
TRUMP: Well, we're all -- we're negotiating everything, and everything's on the table, and we'll see if we can get some land back, and we'll see
about a lot of different things. And we're going to be making a little speech and say a few words. And in a little while we're going to have
another meeting, a luncheon meeting, and we'll see you in about two hours. OK. Thank you very much, everybody.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, Mr. President.
NEWTON: You have been listening to U.S. President Donald Trump and his French counterpart Emmanuel Macron speaking there in the Oval Office, and
they do say we will see them in the next few hours.
I do want to state that significantly, the president said towards the end there, that given the fact that perhaps European peacekeepers would be in
Ukraine if there is a truce and a peace to keep, that he says that he has spoken to President Putin about that and that President Putin will accept
European troops as peacekeepers. And he underscored again that he has indeed spoken to him about that.
OK. Stay with CNN. There's obviously a lot more to come from the White House and beyond. That's it for us for now. Stay with CNN. Isa Soares
Tonight begins in a moment.
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