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Amanpour
Interview with Carnegie Endowment for International Peace Senior Fellow Dara Massicot; Interview with Turkish Republican People's Party (CHP) Leader Ozgur Ozel; Interview with Nashville Council Member and Tennessee's First Elected Transgender Lawmaker Olivia Hill; Interview with "The Calling" Director Asako Gladsjo; Interview with "The Calling" Subject Dr. Le'Shauna Phinazee. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired March 24, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Without pressure on Russia, those in Moscow will continue to show contempt for real
diplomacy and keep destroying lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Russia and the U.S. meet for ceasefire talks in Saudi Arabia. But what might a peace agreement mean for the people of Ukraine? We hear
from regional expert Dara Massicot.
And in Turkey, could the arrest of Istanbul's mayor signal a turning point for democracy? Opposition party leader Ozgur Ozel joins us with an
insider's perspective.
Then I speak with Olivia Hill, a trans lawmaker, navigating prejudice, and toxic politics in Tennessee.
Also --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASAKO GLADSJO, DIRECTOR, "THE CALLING": There's this misconception that DEI brings in unqualified candidates, and that's absolutely not true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Hari Sreenivasan talks to filmmaker Asako Gladsjo and Dr. Le'Shauna Phinazee about dealing with inequality in the healthcare system.
Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York. Sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
A United States delegation is in Saudi Arabia today meeting with Kremlin representatives for negotiations on a partial ceasefire in Ukraine. Now,
this comes one day after a U.S. team met Ukrainian negotiators there for what officials are calling productive talks.
Ukraine is clear that the onus is on Putin to end the war. But officials in Kyiv are concerned about these comments from Trump envoy, Steve Witkoff,
speaking with Tucker Carlson. Appearing to echo Russia's own talking points on annexing Ukrainian territory.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE WITKOFF, U.S. SPECIAL ENVOY: Well, first of all, I think the largest issue in that conflict are these so-called four regions, Donbas, Crimea,
you know, the names --
TUCKER CARLSON, HOST, "THE TUCKER CARLSON SHOW": Lugansk. Yes.
WITKOFF: Lugansk. And there's two others. They're Russian speaking.
CARLSON: Yes.
WITKOFF: There have been referendums where the overwhelming majority of the people have indicated that they want to be under Russian rule.
CARLSON: Yes.
WITKOFF: I think that's the key issue in the conflict.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: And as the talks continue, so do attacks on Ukraine. Russian strikes have killed at least four people in the last 24 hours according to
regional officials. So, can Washington broker a fair and just peace? Dara Massicot is an expert on Russia with the Carnegie Endowment for
International Peace, and joins the program from D.C. Dara, welcome to the program. Always good to see you.
I want to start by getting your assessment of the state of the war right now as it's unfolding on the battlefield. And I know your colleague Mike
Kaufman recently just had a thread of reporting that he posted on X following a recent trip to the region. And here's what he said. He said
that the situation has improved there for Ukraine compared to the fall of 2024, that the Russian offense and momentum slowed significantly over the
winter. Though it is premature to claim that the front has stabilized.
Now, I say that because we have heard President Trump echo Vladimir Putin's talking points in saying that Russia has all the cards, Ukraine has no
cards, and that essentially all of the Ukrainian forces in the Kursk region there that's occupying part of Russia have been surrounded by Ukrainian
troops and essentially are doomed. So, give us a sense as to what the actual state of play is right now.
DARA MASSICOT, SENIOR FELLOW, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE: Well, thanks so much for having me back on the show. Mike and I had the
opportunity to meet with those units who were fighting in Kursk in October. And at that time, they were pretty cognizant that they could hold the
Russians off through the winter or maybe the end of February, but they thought ultimately Russia might be able to bring enough troops to the area
to push them back. And that's largely what happened.
They were not encircled at any point. The Russians were encroaching on them pretty rapidly. I would say they were under threat of encirclement, but
they never lost the ability to come back into Ukraine. And as far as I can tell, most of them have now actually withdrawn into Sumi pretty safely. A
relatively low number of prisoners of war were taken by the Russians, but I would not describe it as an encirclement by any means.
GOLODRYGA: And Ukraine has also been able to quickly a adapt through ingenuity and production of drones that they've really invested in over the
last year or so significantly. But that's not to say that they are not in desperate need of more, A, manpower, right? And B, support militarily and
from intelligence from the U.S.
[13:05:00]
So, I'm just wondering what you're hearing from your sources in Ukraine as to the impact of what we've seen unfold in these early few weeks of Trump's
term where we have seen a lot of critical language directed specifically at Ukraine and their leadership, but also the withholding or the freezing of
military aid and intelligence, which has since been restarted.
MASSICOT: Yes. So, I think that the most critical things for Ukrainian soldiers on the frontline, and I would recommend that these policy
conversations be focused on what those soldiers need to continue to do their work. The cutoff of intelligence and the cutoff of military aid was
thankfully very brief and it didn't really have an impact on their ability to do their jobs. But I do think that it broke a lot of trust at various
levels between Ukrainian forces and Americans in particular. So, I do think some work needs to be done.
But largely, what struck me is that they continued on with their tasks. They remain locked in and focused. They have a lot of systems that they
bring to bear with drones and really pretty solid tactics that allow them to have a lot more stability along most of the areas of the frontline than
people might expect given their disadvantages. They continue to understand their opponent very well.
And while the situation is not trending favorably for them, there's actually a lot of stability on the frontline right now. And I wouldn't say
that they're losing the war. They're at imminent risk of losing at this point.
GOLODRYGA: So, Ukraine may be understanding their opponent very well, but is the U.S. understanding Russia well or are they being duped? And I'm
asking this as it relates to the comments that we heard -- that we've always heard from President Trump, but now from Steve Witkoff over the
weekend as well, essentially saying that this is -- the most important factor here is a territorial dispute, that it's Crimea and these four
regions that he says have always been Russian speaking, and thus, in his argument, belonged to Russia even though these -- the referendum was not
welcomed or not approved, seen as valid by the majority of the world.
Every Russian expert I have spoken with has said this conflict extends far beyond just territory and land. That this is essentially questioning
Ukraine's autonomy and sovereignty. If that is something the United States does not see, what position does that put Ukraine in, in terms of ending
this war fairly and justly?
MASSICOT: Well, to start with the comment on the elections and the Russian speaking regions, I like to say, you know, in America we speak English.
That doesn't mean that we view ourselves as British. Part of Great Britain. We speak the same language, but we're culturally very different. That's the
same for Ukraine. There are parts in cities of Ukraine that I've been to the people speak Ukrainian and Russian, that doesn't necessarily translate
and it doesn't translate anymore into an affinity or belonging to the Russian Federation. So, I highly recommend people go visit Ukraine and go
speak and see them, and see that this is the case.
In terms of the elections in those four regions, Luhansk, Donetsk, Kherson, Zaporizhzhia, they were largely depopulated of a great deal of their
population when those referenda were held and people were being called out of their apartments with guns. So, an election was held, but it wasn't free
or fair. So, I think that's really important to keep in mind.
And as for the rest of Ukrainian territory, well, Putin's military cannot deliver him at this point, the maximalist goals that he wants. So, by
insisting on illegally annexing part of Ukraine, he's taking little bites out of the country over time, spending a few years to repair and refit and
then trying to take additional bites of Ukraine, and that really needs to be spoken out loud and addressed.
GOLODRYGA: So, what is it, at this point, that Russia can achieve? I mean, there are those who suggest that any sort of ceasefire under these terms
would only benefit Vladimir Putin, who's trying to draw this all out, sort of outlast Trump and continue this war going, and ultimately his gain of
capturing or at least having new leadership in Ukraine itself.
So, by the U.S. sort of giving in or speaking his talking points, what does that give Vladimir Putin at this point, even if he does agree to a 30-day
ceasefire?
MASSICOT: Well, what the Russians will try to convince the American side of is that, you know, they have the capacity to move forward and take
additional Ukrainian land if they want to, and that is not the case. For example, they do not occupy the majority of Zaporizhzhia, Kherson. There
are several reasons on the ground where that is likely impossible for them this year or next, barring a complete collapse of the Ukrainian military
which doesn't seem likely at this point.
[13:10:00]
But there's other issues that the Kremlin is interested in. They want a compliant leader in Kyiv. They want Ukraine to renounce all, you know,
desire to join NATO and to make changes to their constitution and really have a lot of say in the size of Ukraine's military and a lot of decisions
that are fundamental to their sovereignty. And I think the American side is aware that that's what the Kremlin is trying to drive for.
So, if we think about today's talks, today's talks are very, very limited in scope, and I think that they're trying to build on very limited things
first before addressing those more tricky issues.
GOLODRYGA: What do you make of Steve Witkoff dismissing concerns that many Europeans and I know many of your colleagues also have about further goals
that Vladimir Putin may have in terms of threats to Europe beyond just Ukraine?
MASSICOT: I think there is a lot of concern in Europe about the future capabilities of the Russian military once they regenerate and reconstitute
in a few years from now. Certainly, the intent is there. They're waging a war of sabotage and other aggressive actions along Ukraine's border. And
eventually, they will rebuild their capability once they, you know, recover significant losses to their army. I think that they are also feeling a
little insecure about the United States' commitment to NATO to defending them in Article 5 scenario.
From the Russian perspective, if the United States is not honoring Article 5 commitments and doesn't intend to defend parts of Eastern Europe, then
the -- then to Russia, this military problem becomes a lot more simple. So, I think that there's some anxiety in the transatlantic relationship. But
Russia simply does not have the means right now, and I don't think for several more years to do anything like challenge NATO directly. But they
are -- you know, they are putting out tanks, they are rebuilding, and Europe needs to be very serious about this, and the United States as well.
GOLODRYGA: Well -- and that does not seem to be the posture the U.S. is taking publicly, at least from the comments that we heard from Steve
Witkoff, who, once again, sort of downplayed any threat that Russia poses to Europe and was quite dismissive and flippant, I would say at points, in
terms of any aid in support that Europe alone would be able to provide Ukraine with the U.S. largely absent.
He specifically referred to the United Kingdom and Keir Starmer's proposal of some troops there, security troop forces there in Ukraine, saying that -
- you know, that that was not something that was really feasible. How did you react to that? How are your colleagues reacting to these comments?
MASSICOT: Well, I think that, you know, he's right in that there are some unique American capabilities that -- excuse me, that Europe cannot really
replace, specifically with some of our more advanced air defense systems, and specifically with some of the types of intelligence support that we
provide. But I don't think that this kind of conversations are helpful in the public domain as we're sitting across the table from the Russians.
The Russians will look for any cleavage between us, any tensions and try to exploit that to their gain. So, I would encourage this kind of
conversations to be not in the public domain.
GOLODRYGA: You also heard Steve Witkoff say in the interview with Tucker Carlson, specifically as it relates to Ukraine, that there will be
elections. No reference to any elections or the sort of, you know, sham elections that we've seen undemocratic for many years now in Russia, but
specifically as it relates to Ukraine.
We've seen President Zelenskyy popularity only rise following that debacle in the Oval Office. How much of a roadblock do you think this issue alone
will be in terms of further U.S. support if Zelenskyy is -- remains in office?
MASSICOT: So, there's a few things that have to be sequenced. Right now, Ukraine is under martial law and according to their constitution they
cannot actually hold an election until martial law is lifted. And so, to lift martial law, there has to be some kind of ceasefire or some type of
peace agreement on the table for them to do that.
So, I don't view this so much as Zelenskyy clinging to power. He has said that he is willing to have an election as soon as they can get out of their
martial law context. So, that's why I think there is a progression here between limited ceasefire, expanded ceasefire for 30 days or hopefully
longer to let the peace process play. And once that is in place, then the pressure will be on Zelenskyy to follow his word, you know, OK. Are we in a
position where we can lower martial law so that we can hold elections and let the people speak? Whether that's re-electing him or, you know, re-
electing someone else you know, that's for -- when martial law can be lifted.
[13:15:00]
GOLODRYGA: Dara Massicot, always good to see you. Thank you so much.
MASSICOT: Thank you so much.
GOLODRYGA: We'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Turning to Turkey now where we're following a serious erosion of democracy. A Turkish court has jailed the mayor of Istanbul on
corruption charges in the latest escalation, targeting a top political rival to President Erdogan.
Ekrem Imamoglu fronts that opposition Republican People's Party called CHP. He was arrested at home last Wednesday on allegations of corruption.
Imamoglu denies the charges.
Earlier, Istanbul University said that it had annulled Imamoglu's degree. A move seen as politically motivated as it effectively bars him from running
for president. Now, his arrest has sparked massive protests across the country with more than a thousand people arrested.
Erdogan, who himself served as mayor of Istanbul before running for prime minister calls the demonstrations a movement of violence. On Sunday's
Imamoglu's party voted to make him their 2028 presidential candidate even as he remains in jail. CHP leader Ozgur Ozel is urging members of his party
not to be cowed. He joined us today from Istanbul.
Mr. Ozel, thank you so much for taking the time today. Christiane spoke with Mr. Imamoglu back in 2019 when he was first elected mayor, and given
the massive protests and the arrest over the weekend, we thought it was very important to return to this subject matter today. We know that Mr.
Imamoglu is viewed as your party's rising star, the most significant rival to President Erdogan.
You've called his arrest last week a coup against Turkey's next President. How much of a political earthquake to Turkey's democracy is what we're
seeing right now?
OZGUR OZEL, LEADER, TURKISH REPUBLICAN PEOPLE'S PARTY (CHP) (through translator): Well, thank you very much for your sensitivity as well as for
your interest into this topic because democracy is present in some countries, but not in some countries. And so, this shouldn't be --
democracy shouldn't have a different interpretation, in other words. And it is, therefore, all those people defending a democracy they would always
love to be managed by those people who they have elected.
And in Turkey as well, people are always asking for equal opportunities for the elections, and they would like to see these elections to take place in
a justice. And in Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, many years ago, like 30 years ago, during his run for the mayorship of Istanbul, he got the first
win of his political run. And before that, he has always been defeated.
And after his mayorship of Istanbul municipality, and he was also banned for a certain period of time, politically, from the mayorship of Istanbul,
and he was still chairing his party. However, he wasn't able to get the power to run the country.
[13:20:00]
And our party, CHP, and I proposed for a change of constitution to remove his ban because if a leader of -- leadership of a party is making this man
as the first man, he -- this man should also be the ruling. So, who should be the -- he should be the president, because whoever the people is asking
for that person should be the president. Because if this person is elected as president, then we can call it a democracy. And from that point on
Erdogan has entered into lots of elections, so that we.
And after Erdogan established his party, political party for about now 22 years, he has been winning almost in all of the elections, increasing his
power in each of those elections. And as a result of these 22 years of his rule, the last year, the local elections, which took part in the 31st of
March under my leadership, our candidate, our nominee (INAUDIBLE) we really had strong candidates. And CHP has completed the local elections as the
winning party, as the number one party.
And Erdogan he lost his none defeated status and he has become the second party, which also puts us in a leading position. And this was not the first
time Imamoglu defeated Erdogan. So, an acceleration in popularity of Imamoglu is very clear. And Erdogan always says a very prominent word,
whoever wins Istanbul wins Turkey. Whoever loses Istanbul loses Turkey.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. There are thousands of people who have turned out to protest. The question is whether these protests will fizzle after a certain
period of time, given the heavy handedness of the Erdogan government right now or continue.
I do want to ask you though, because Mr. Imamoglu was arrested for a number of charges, including leading a crime organization, abetting a terrorist
group, and bribery. Both Imamoglu and your party say these charges are completely political. Now, government officials say his arrest shows that
nobody in Turkey is above the law and that the country's courts are independent. In your view, in present day Turkey, under the leadership of
President Erdogan, are the courts independent?
OZEL (through translator): I cannot say that the courts are independent, not even as the main opposition leader. If you make a survey in Turkey, you
can see only 18 percent of the people believe that the judiciary is independent in Turkey. Nobody has a trust to the justice system in Turkey.
And if Imamoglu didn't run for the candidacy in content against Erdogan in and hadn't had -- and he wouldn't have had all this happening to him today.
Unfortunately, there is no independent judiciary in Turkey and we have been working really hard to make the judiciary independent. We love our country.
We defend our country's interests. We would like our country to be integrated with the West and to be a stronger line to NATO. And we would
like our country to have an increased and improved relationship with all these organizations.
However, Erdogan is trying to dismantle Turkey from this these organizations, and he's trying to drift Turkey to an unlawful pathway. And
as you can see, tens of -- 10 millions of people in 81 provinces or millions of people demonstrating in Istanbul, their main motivation is to
respect the justice system, to own the democracy, to defend the democracy, and to preserve their rights.
GOLODRYGA: Is it your view that the United States upholds the democratic process in Turkey as a top priority as well? And I ask this because over
the weekend U.S. Envoy Steve Witkoff said that President Trump and President Erdogan spoke recently and had a very good conversation that was
transformational. And in addition to that, we know that Marco Rubio is going to be meeting with the foreign minister of Turkey tomorrow.
Turkey is a strategic ally, as you know, to the United States and NATO, both in the Middle East, but obviously as it applies to the war in Ukraine.
What would you like the United States to do in response to the events we've seen unfolding over the last few days?
[13:25:00]
OZEL (through translator): Well, whether it is U.S. or E.U. or other democracies or other allies of Turkey around the world. I have always
defended and I believe that open relationship to support this relationship has always been good. So, I am not concerned with the fact that the foreign
minister is going to meet Mr. Marco Rubio tomorrow or neither Erdogan's meeting with Trump.
However, Erdogan, unless he defines democracy and if he signed some contracts that works for the favor of himself, would damage both of the
countries' future interests. It is not going to work for the interest over both of the countries. So, these conversations, bilateral relations and
dialogues should continue for the interest of both countries. But this should also support adrifting Turkey to the democratic pathway as well.
A sustainable and a strong Turkey is important. However, without democracy, then there is no value. Democracy should always be the priority and we
wouldn't find it plausible to have some unilateral benefits. We see United States as well as Russia as very important strategical allies, and the
founder of this country or our country, Gazi Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, in the war of independence after winning Turkey from the occupation of seven
different countries, he didn't say that we are going to be the strongest country in the world. He said that there's going to peace at home and peace
in the world. So, we are representative of a Democratic party. And so, in Turkey, we have a peace in our DNAs.
GOLODRYGA: Mr. Ozel, I appreciate the time today. Thank you so much for the interview.
OZEL (through translator): I thank you very much and all the success.
GOLODRYGA: Turning back to the U.S. The White House Campaign against trans rights is moving on multiple fronts with executive actions to bar trans
women and girls from participating in sports and block access to gender- affirming care while trying to ban transgender service members from the military and declaring the federal government only recognizes two sexes,
male and female.
Now, some European countries are cautioning trans and non-binary travelers bound for the U.S. to contact the American embassies in their home
countries first to clear up any questions about their passport status prior to departure. Olivia Hill is a Nashville council member. She's the first
elected transgender lawmaker in Tennessee, where a bill to segregate bathrooms by biological sex is now headed to the governor's desk. Olivia
Hill, welcome to the program.
Let's just talk about what we've seen out of this administration in its first few weeks in office and his inaugural address in one of the first
executive orders President Trump asserted, as we noted, only two sexes exist, that is female and male established at conception. He signed
executive orders aimed at banning any mention of transgender people in schools, ban transgender athletes from women's sports and threatened to
withhold funding from universities that do and bar trans people from serving in the military. Just to list a few of the items here, Is this what
you expected from this administration or has this surprised you, just the amount of attention and the actions already taken just two months in?
OLIVIA HILL, NASHVILLE COUNCIL MEMBER AND TENNESSEE'S FIRST ELECTED TRANSGENDER LAWMAKER: Well, first off, thank you so much for allowing me
to be here. And no, it doesn't shock me or surprise me at all from Donald Trump. This is kind of expected.
Let's start at the top. And first, there's two sexes is what they say. We know for a fact that there's three because there's intersex, and that's
someone that's been born with some form of both. And so, if we know that there's now three, then if you try to say there's black and white, then we
know that there's another form of gray. And it's different shades from charcoal to light gray. And so, if we know for a fact that there's at least
three genders in sexes, then we have to start listening and go from there.
GOLODRYGA: On the issue of military service, this is something personal for you. You served in the U.S. Army for nine years, I believe. And this
executive order suggests that transgender people cannot, quote, "satisfy the rigorous standards necessary for military service."
A district judge, we should note, rule that this executive order likely violates U.S. constitutional guarantees of equal protection under the law.
But speaking from your own experience, I'd like for you to respond to this order.
[13:30:00]
HILL: Well, I need to clarify, it was U.S. Navy that I served and I served right at 10 years. And I've been trans my entire life and it didn't affect
my service at all. I did three deployments, two of which were in the Persian Gulf, and I saw combat during desert storms. So, it didn't affect
my military service at all, and it doesn't affect any service member being trans.
If anything, the one thing that I've learned in my transition is the loss of my white male privilege. And I know now as a woman that I have to work
three times as hard to only advance twice as much. So, for trans women to continue to excel, it just means they're working that much harder.
GOLODRYGA: What made you go into public service?
HILL: I started standing up for women's rights and I connected with Dan Carone (ph) from Virginia who encouraged me to run, and she told me that if
I wanted to make a difference, to not help elected officials, but to become one. And so, that's what I did.
It's the thing that's rocked my world the most, and my transition was the loss of my white male privilege that I didn't know that I had until it went
away, and it went away like a switch.
GOLODRYGA: I'd like to get you to respond to the reaction we've seen thus far, not only to the election and Donald Trump winning office again, but
how he ran on this issue of trans rights in general, and how the Democrats have thus been quite divided in responding to its subsequently. Gavin
Newsom, the governor of California, widely expected to have higher aspirations to run for president soon, had this to say in a recent podcast
on the issue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): It turns out in 2014, years before I was governor, there was a law established that established the legal principles
that allow the -- allow trans athletes in women's sports. But the issue of fairness is completely legit. It is an issue of fairness, and I think
Democrats have lost.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. And I --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: How do you respond to that? Do you think it's an issue of fairness?
HILL: Here's the thing, in the first two years of my transition, I shrunk almost two inches because the disc in between the vertebrae are less than a
woman than they are on a man. I lost every bit of my upper body strength within the first three months. My skin is center, so I cut easier, I
bruised easier. My lung capacity is about three fourths of what it used to be. My red blood cell counts about 60 percent of what it used to be. I lost
muscle mass though out my entire body.
So, to say that we're exactly the same, it's just inaccurate and it's just wrong. We don't have enough time for me to go into all the things that have
changed, but I mean, just like Lia Thomas, the swimmer from Pennsylvania. She stopped for two years to start taking estrogen and hormone blockers for
testosterone until her estrogen levels and testosterone levels with were within female standards. And then she started to compete. And if you look
at her numbers now versus her numbers prior, there are a whole lot less, which proves that we lose strength and agility.
GOLODRYGA: Well, there's -- what we heard from Gavin Newsom and his views on the issue as it relates to fairness. But he's not alone. Rahm Emanuel
said that, quote, "Some kids in classroom are debating which pronouns apply. The rest of the class doesn't know what a pronoun is. That's the
crisis." And we also know former transportation secretary under Biden, Pete Buttigieg, removed his pronouns from his profile on X recently.
So, I guess my question to you is, why do you think that an issue that really relates to or impacts a smaller swath of the U.S. population was not
an issue that the Democratic Party could effectively challenge and address head on the way the Republicans ran with it?
HILL: Well, the biggest thing that we have to do is we have to educate a lot of people. The thought of trans is not anything that's new. It's been
around forever. It's just now being start talk about, it's just now kind of coming out into public. And the biggest thing that we have to do is educate
people. Because it sounds very intuitive of a man and a woman, and then when you start to throw in the mix that there is at least three genders,
because we know that there's intersex, and all the things that change once we start hormones, we take hormone blockers and we take estrogen or
testosterone, depending on which way you go, that a lot of things change, and we have got to start educating people.
And just because someone of power or someone of knowledge starts to speak of something about the trans community, it doesn't mean that it's accurate
or it's true. We have to start listening to the physicians and the people that are in this community and the people that know the trans community and
how we progress.
GOLODRYGA: So, how do you think the Democratic Party as a whole should address this issue going forward?
HILL: I think we stay the way we are. We keep fighting, we keep standing up, we keep educating people and we get people like myself out there to
start to talk about all the things that change. Because the biggest problem that we have in the trans community is they see trans women and drag queens
as the same. And we're not men in wigs. We're completely different.
[13:35:00]
An example of that is, is you never hear any talk about trans men in sports because the biggest thing that trans men gain is male privilege. And
they're left alone. It's only trans women who have transitioned from male to female get the misogyny and talk to less than.
GOLODRYGA: Let me ask you about the challenges in your own State of Tennessee. The Supreme Court, heard arguments in a case there over whether
state bans on treating transgender minors violates the Constitution. The Supreme Court has yet to issue a decision on that.
Also, we know a proposal will require all public and private educational institutions that host children overnight or students overnight to separate
bathrooms by immutable, quote, "biological sex." That's heading to the governor's desk for signature. How are you responding to this as a state
lawmaker?
HILL: Yes. Again, we've got to go back to education. So, this law excludes the people that are intersex. And so, what do we even do with those people?
And there is around 3 percent of Americans that are intersex, which is almost three times the amount of people that are trans.
And so, this is not an issue. And when we -- when they did an interview and spoke with our lieutenant governor, McNally, he -- and he said that they
didn't know of any issues of any trans people that were in any of these spaces that was a problem. They're just going off of fear and scare
tactics. They talk about, you know, the trans issue and how they're mutilating the children and blockers and things have been around for a very
long time.
Girls who started their cycle very early were given blockers so that they could stop. And when regular cisgender people take these blockers, they
seem to be OK. But they're horrible sterilizing bad things when they happen to trans kids, which was a big part of the attorneys at the Supreme Court
for whether children could get healthcare. So, I think that this is just plain old discrimination.
GOLODRYGA: In the final few seconds we have, I do wonder personally for you what the past few months have been like, whether you have felt
threatened, alone, empowered.
HILL: Well, you know, as the first trans person out in the State of Tennessee, I get a pretty fair amount of hate, but I'm not going away.
We've got Transgender Day of Visibility coming up, March the 31st, and I try my best to be as visible as I possibly can. They can't make me go away.
They can't make me hide. I'm going to continue fight. I ran this race as a qualified human, and that's how I continue to live.
GOLODRYGA: Olivia Hill, we appreciate the time. Thank you for joining us today.
HILL: Thank you so much.
GOLODRYGA: And we'll be back after a short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Next we turn to public health where the Trump administration is taking a shock and awe approach, scrubbing government websites of health
information for women and racial minorities, pulling the U.S. out of the World Health Organization, and choosing vaccine critic Robert F. Kennedy
Jr. as secretary of health and human services.
The importance of healthcare is underscored in a new docufilm, "The Calling: A Medical School Journey." It follows the academic and personal
stories of students at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York. Here's a clip from the trailer.
[13:40:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: By hindsight all the time. As I got older, I realized the magnitude of that. I was like, we have a medical school in the Bronx,
and that's actually pretty cool when you think about it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I was 14, I knew I wanted to be a doctor. Every exam you take, every rotation you get through, you know, you're one step
closer to your dream.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Filmmaker Asako Glasjo and Dr. Le'Shauna Phinazee, who features in the documentary, join Hari Sreenivasan of Austin to discuss what it
takes to become a physician in one of America's most underserved neighborhoods.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARI SREENIVASAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Bianna, thanks Asako Glasjo, Le'Shauna Phinazee, thanks so much for joining us. Asako. Let's
start with why this film? You follow a group of students through Einstein College in the Bronx through kind of their trials and tribulations through
over a whole year. What drew you to this?
ASAKO GLADSJO, DIRECTOR, "THE CALLING": You know, it was something that -- especially after the pandemic, I was really -- you know, I live in Harlem.
I live right next to the Bronx, and I saw how much medical inequity was at the same time that everyone was coming out every night to like bang their
pots and pans, I thought who is becoming doctors today?
And, you know, one of the other things that, you know, was very concerning to me was I felt like a lot of the problems and why there was so much
inequity was because of doctors coming from, you know, mostly coming from very privileged backgrounds. So, it was really important to me to focus on
students who came from a really wide range of backgrounds and to see how it affected them to learn medicine in a community like the Bronx, which is one
of the most underserved in America.
SREENIVASAN: Le'Shauna, your journey is in the film. I mean, you're one of the few students that are kind of profiled. You grew up sort of in the
neighborhood, in Harlem, in the Bronx, and you really kind of take us on a walking tour of some more of the painful parts of your life. And when did
you think that you wanted to be a doctor?
DR. LE'SHAUNA PHINAZEE, SUBJECT, "THE CALLING": Yes, I wanted to be a doctor when I was 14 years old. It was this kid in my neighborhood. My
little brother was four at the time that he was about the same age as my little brother who had a congenital heart defect. And my mother would go
visit him and just talk about all the sick kids at the time. And it just kind of really resonated with me and I was like, oh, I need to do something
about that in my naive 14-year-old way. And it just set me on this path to wanting to be a doctor. And that kind of just ignited that.
He ultimately ended up passing due to his disease. But I think at the -- it would, at the time, it was something that I thought I wanted to do and
wanted to help.
SREENIVASAN: Asako, you know, according to the Association of America and Medical Colleges, there's an 11.6 percent drop in black matriculants, 10.8
percent drop in Latino matriculants, and also about a 12 percent drop in just the incoming class. What are some of the factors that explain that?
GLASJO: Well, I mean, I think we all have -- can see in the news, you know, there's been a very concerted attack on, you know, affirmative action
and educational equity pretty much ever since the Civil Rights Movement and, you know, the very first attempt to have, you know, affirmative action
for medical, or in that case, dental school was, you know, the -- (INAUDIBLE) case back -- all the way back in 1978.
And so, this is not new, but it's very, depressing because there have been so many studies that have shown that, you know, when you have doctors from
different backgrounds, they end up giving better care to people from, you know, a wider range of backgrounds as well.
And I didn't want to make a film where we just made arguments about it because it's very clear to me that the anti-DEI mood that's just taken over
the country now is going to make that problem worse. But I felt like, let's just see these students, if you follow these students and you see their
work, and you see their dedication, and you see the challenges that they face, you'll not doubt that these -- all of these students are just as
qualified as anyone else. I think that's the -- was the hope with making this film, was that you would understand that it's not -- there's this
misconception that DEI brings in unqualified candidates, and that's absolutely not true.
DEI was made to level the playing field a little bit, to open the doors a little bit to other people who are going to excel in the field, but who
haven't had the privileges, the private tutors, the private schools, the parents who are doctors already. You know, all of these advantages that
make it so that most medical schools are full of, you know, students from quite privileged backgrounds who have -- you know, many of them have
parents -- at least one parent who's a doctor already.
SREENIVASAN: Le'Shauna, I mean, there's a scene in there with one of the students and his mentor is an African American male, and he says, you know,
the percentage of young black men becoming doctors has improved, but incredibly, very small amount.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I went to medical school there were five black students.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Out of a class of 200.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wow.
[13:45:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. So, you have what, triple me maybe? But don't forget to pay it forward because, you know, pretty much, you know, if you
look at the WMC numbers, you know, it's still -- physician is really only 3 percent black males of the entire, you know, physician population in the
United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SREENIVASAN: When you were going through med school, was that -- were you conscious of that?
DR. PHINAZEE: Yes. I think it's really evident once you walk on campus and you start meeting your peers. And as Einstein, my class coming in was 183
people. And of that, if 20 was people of color and that includes black and Hispanic students, that's the fraction that it was. And it's just something
that you just kind of know that it exists.
Even like the doctors that we work with, that are our professors or even the attendings we work with in a hospital, not many of them look like me or
look like my -- anybody in my family for the most part.
SREENIVASAN: So, tell me a little bit about what made you -- right now, I hear that you are pursuing radiology, right? Why radiology?
DR. PHINAZEE: It's just something that I encountered on my third year. But radiology is just something I just fell in love with. I love -- like I was
a math person in college. I majored in math and just looking at the images, I like the images, I like the pathology. And then, I did a breast radiology
rotation, which is pretty cool because I think people think of radiologists, they think of them just kind of being in a dark room, not
doing much, not really interacting with patients, but that's really not the case. And you can make whatever you want of it. You could be in a room
reading, or you could be more patient facing. You could be doing procedures.
So, I felt like I just had just the variety that I wanted in a career. And if my priorities change as I grow older in a profession, I think I could
move through the space in a way that kind of fits my life as I go on.
SREENIVASAN: Asako, there's a powerful moment in the film where really the students are coming in kind of their first day of cadaver lab.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You never know what's -- who's going to be triggered. It's really interesting process. And we want to respect the fact that if
you don't feel well, just get out of here. OK. And we'll come check on you. OK. All right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SREENIVASAN: As a filmmaker, how did you choose which moments, what were the things that you were looking for? Because I'm sure you had a lot of
hours of video that we didn't see.
GLASJO: Yes, there was definitely a lot of hours. I will say, you know, just sort of the complication of shooting in any medical setting is there's
a lot of permissions you have to get. Like every time you see a patient that was -- people were contacted ahead of time, they had to sign HIPAA
releases as well as appearance releases. It is are quite complicated.
So, we didn't -- we had a lot with our students outside of patient settings, but in terms of just getting to know the students, what we also -
- it was important to sort of show these different aspects of it, the challenge of how much work there is, the realization that no matter how
well you ace your tests, if you don't know how to talk to a patient, you're not going to necessarily be a good doctor. And if you are worried about
yourself academically, you might actually, you know discover that your skills, making people feel at ease are going to be the ones that really
make a difference.
SREENIVASAN: Le'Shauna, you know, you and the other sort of main character kind of have this fork in the road and very sort of justifiably so. She
wants to stay in the Bronx and she wants to match with the hospital and she does it, you know, in the Bronx, and you're like, I'm ready for -- to see
the rest of the world, right? And you are now at Duke. Why -- what was the motivating factor for you to kind of spread your wings?
DR. PHINAZEE: Yes. It was definitely a decision that was not taken lightly. It's something I always saw myself as a doctor and practice in New
York and helping my community. But I think once my brother was killed like right before starting med school, I felt like I gave like New York enough
of my energy and time and didn't want my kids to kind of grow up in the same neighborhoods and environments, even if I was to become a doctor and
be, able to move out of different neighborhoods within New York City, I feel like it's still so accessible and in my family, like history is so
accessible and I just feel like it was time for me to kind of move and into a different space in my life.
And I thought -- I kind of landed at North Carolina because I'm like it's still far enough south where the weather is nicer. And I still have the --
I'm still close enough that it's a quick flight or it's drivable back home to New York City where most of my family lives. So, I think I -- like I
gave New York a lot of my time and emotion and energy. And I think I don't want my kids to have to even experience it or even know of it, for the most
part.
[13:50:00]
SREENIVASAN: Yes. Yes. Not to mention it's a very good program that you're in. So, congratulations for that, right?
DR. PHINAZEE: Yes, for sure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREW PECK: I think it's a privilege to be a doctor, and I think it's even more a privilege to be a black doctor. I think a lot of people from my
background don't see medicine as an option or they probably don't see people that look like them in those spaces, and it can be very daunting for
them. And I think I've been very fortunate having people help me kind of find a way to succeed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SREENIVASAN: Asako, you kind of weaved this kind of personal narratives into the story a little bit. Why did you feel that was important for us to
kind of get to know the characters' back stories, get to know kind of them and their families, because we have multiple scenes of that?
GLASJO: I think a lot of people feel alienated from the medical system for a lot of reasons. And a lot of it has to do with the insurance and the way
that, you know, when something terrible happens to a family member, you know, I had a -- one of my daughters was hit by a car and the first way I
knew about it was a hospital called asking for the insurance. And
so, there's a lot of ways that you blame the doctors as a patient. You think the doctor is just there to make money, that they don't care about
you, that they're wasting your time. And just the hopes that you have to jump through to get things covered and all of that. It's easy to not see
that the doctors come to this profession, that it's actually an incredible devotion to caring for others that motivates them.
And one of the ways I felt like you really could feel it was when you saw them outside of class, outside of those medical settings, that you could
feel that this is a person that their whole life has brought them to this point, that they're willing to make these sacrifices, to do this incredibly
hard work. And it's not like doing other kinds of jobs. I mean, it is a job where you are committing yourself. That's why it's called "The Calling,"
that -- and so, I think that for those of us who aren't doctors, who are just in the large patient community, it was a way to understand who are the
doctors that are caring for us and you know, why it matters. What -- which understanding that they can come from all kinds of backgrounds and be
really a great doctorate.
SREENIVASAN: Le'Shauna, it comes as a postscript in the film, but just really after you graduate is this unbelievable philanthropic gift. The
tuition will now be free at Einstein for every medical student coming in, you did not benefit from that. But what is the change that you see
possible?
DR. PHINAZEE: Yes. So, I'm do -- I do hope that the change allows for students like me to now be able to not worry about the financial burden of
medical school. And Einstein has a great mission for medical school and I think that mission allowed me as a student to get accepted into Einstein.
And I just will love for that mission to keep them true to that value of making a help and a diverse medical system. I know we're in the times
where, like Asako was saying, that DEI is under attack and people missions, statements are changing a little bit to maintain a federal funding.
But I do hope that this is something that they still allow them to be true to the -- to their character and their mission and admit students like me
who wouldn't have a chance otherwise to get into medical schools. We're having a conversation on the day that these students match, and you
captured that for this particular class and this group of students that you were following.
SREENIVASAN: Asako, we're having a conversation on the day that these students match. And you captured that for this particular class and these
group of students that you were following. So, what was that like?
GLASJO: I mean, it was exciting. And it was also -- you know, for my core crew who had been, you know, bothering these students for an entire year,
we were just as emotional. We were crying. We saw each other -- like I saw, you know, the associate producer, the cameraman, they were like tears
everywhere. Everyone was like blowing their noses, because we were so excited.
And I will say, you know, when I cast the two sort of main fourth year students that we followed that are of the core of the film, I met them when
they were in their third year and, you know, we sort of imagined following them over this year. I could never have predicted that they would both get
their top choice residency because, you know, not everyone does. I just want to be sure that people understand that.
The fact that they get the ones that they wanted the most and that they told me repeatedly they wanted the most was kind of amazing.
SREENIVASAN: Yes. Yes. This is -- it was really a wonderful kind of crescendo to the film, just emotionally as well as just kind of as a
narrative arc, but -- so, congratulations on that.
GLASJO: Thank you.
SREENIVASAN: Filmmaker Asako Glasjo, and Dr. Le'Shauna Phinazee, thank you both for joining us.
GLASJO: Thank you.
DR. PHINAZEE: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And finally, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. It is now cherry blossom season. Japan announced the official start today in Tokyo, and there's some science
behind it.
[13:55:00]
Officials must confirm five to six flowers blossomed on the benchmark tree before deciding that it's go time. Now, this year's season kicked off five
days earlier than last year's, giving lovers of the iconic flower a head start on enjoying its beauty.
And here in the United States, the National Park Service as the capital's famous cherry trees have reached stage five. Puffy white, which means peak
bloom is next. My favorite time of the year too, to see these beautiful, beautiful flowers.
Well, that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can
always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media. Thank you so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
