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Amanpour
Interview With Former Finnish Prime Minister Sanna Marin; Interview With Former Colombian President, The Elders Chair And Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Juan Manuel Santos; Interview With "The Ballad of Wallis Island" Actor Tom Basden; Interview With "The Ballad of Wallis Island" Actor Tim Key; Interview With Former U.S. Ambassador to Japan and Former Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired April 04, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: In many cases, the friend is worse than the foe in terms of trade
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Trump's war on allies. No corner of the world is spared. How to handle a destabilizing American president. I asked the former leaders of
Finland and Columbia.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome on Wallis Island.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you sell rice? My fire. Go where.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We got pasta.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has to be rice apparently.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, he's got pudding, Luke.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- a balm for trouble times my conversation with the stars of feel-good film that isn't trying to tell us anything. Tim Key and Tom
Basden of "The Ballad of Wallis Island."
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAHM EMANUEL, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO JAPAN AND FORMER CHICAGO MAYOR: The American people want a shot and they want their children to have a shot at
the American Dream, and all they have gotten out of Washington is the chaff. And that's the truth. And we have to acknowledge it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- running for president, former U.S. Ambassador to Japan, Rahm Emanuel tells Walter Isaacson why he's not done with public service yet.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
Let down by our oldest ally, that is how E.U. President Ursula von der Leyen immediately reacted to President Trump imposing some of the highest
additional tariffs on Europe, amounting to 20 percent. He's lumped China with approximately 50 percent and even slapped the poorest, least developed
countries with these punitive measures.
So, as governments from the Americas to Asia ponder their response to what they consider economic warfare, many, especially allies, are also having to
deal with the fallout and demands of America first on civil liberties, mass, and often brutal deportations, the rule of law, and a 180 degree turn
on who's an ally and who's an adversary.
My first guest tonight have a very different idea of leadership from Trump, as we'll hear. Sanna Marin was prime minister of Finland. She knows the
threat posed by Russia all too well. And Juan Manuel Santos is the former president of Columbia who won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2016 for his role in
bringing the country's decades long conflict to an end. He's also chair of The Elders, an organization of senior states people aimed at promoting
human rights. And they join me now from New York. Welcome to both of you.
I just need to ask you this question that everybody's trying to grapple with. First to you, Prime Minister Marin. What do you say about Europe
being slapped with these huge tariffs, and what do you think is going to be the result?
SANNA MARIN, FORMER FINNISH PRIME MINISTER: Well, for decades we have been building the multilateral system, international corporation, and aiming to
free to trade. And now, we are entering this world where long alliances have been broken or shattered or shaken in many ways between the U.S. and
Europe. And now, this very, very sturdy tariffs against not only Europe, but all over the world. And entering an age with trade wars is telling us a
very different story than we were building for a long time.
From European perspective, I would say it would be very important to stay united. I think that European Union countries are now discussing together
how to encounter these tariffs, what will be the measures that Europe as a whole will take. And I think there will be a lot of discussions. Do we want
to go to this path that Trump has chosen or would there be some other response to this?
I think that it would be very wise to also see couple of days how things will evolve and then make joint common decisions at European level and not
by nation to nation, that I think that Trump also aims to have bilateral negotiations, not to negotiate with the whole E.U.
AMANPOUR: Yes. So, it's a bit of a divide and conquer. President Santos, I want to ask from your perspective, because one of the first crises, I guess
you would call it, shortly after President Trump's inaugural was with Columbia when he, you know, insisted on sending, you know, plane loads of
deportees in shackles. The current president was furious. He barred the planes from landing. Trump then slapped a 25 percent tariff on Columbia.
[13:05:00]
Anyway, all these threats and et cetera. And then your president kind of walked the situation back and these tariffs were not put on. So, from that
perspective, as the Colombian president, former, what do you think your country and the Americas have learned about President Trump and how do you
advise dealing with it?
JUAN MANUEL SANTOS, FORMER COLOMBIAN PRESIDENT, CHAIR, THE ELDERS AND NOBEL PEACE PRIZE LAUREATE: Well, that incident with the Colombian president
showed us that that is not the way to deal with Trump or with any president. They started insulting each other and then they used the methods
that should be used from the beginning, which is diplomacy, private diplomacy and dialogue. That is the way to settle things, to improve
relations, not by using the tweet and insulting each other. That is the first lesson that we learn from that incident.
And in general, I had the opportunity of being president with President Trump almost for two years. And we used private diplomacy to settle the
disagreements that we had. And I think this is the way that should be done. And what we need right now in the world is more dialogue, more cooperation,
the tariffs. There is -- Latin America for 30 years did what exactly Trump announced, which is the so-called import substitution policy that was led
by an Argentinian economist called Raul Prebisch. And that was a complete failure.
That's why back in the early '90s we were -- all of Latin America was very engaged in negotiating the creation of the World Trade Organization because
the import substitution policy was a failure. We have existential threats that are increasing. The doomsday clock showed us how we have been getting
closer and closer to doomsday and we need to cooperate. And cooperation is based on trust and on constructive dialogue, and that is what we need right
now.
AMANPOUR: So, because you bring that up, you are in New York to give an address to the United Nations on that kind of issue, on dialogue, on peace,
on conflict resolution. So, tell me what you're going to tell the U.N.? What is your vision of it at a time when, honestly, there doesn't seem to
be that there's any space for dialogue? It is not just Trump, but he's the main, you know, leader, sort of the bull in the China shop, but everywhere
else you see wars and very little dialogue.
SANTOS: Well, unfortunately, the multilateral system is being weakened. What we are seeing is countries not abiding by the rules that they had
established. And we need to then reform the system, not do away with the system. We need to reform it through dialogue. And this is what I think all
the countries, not only the rich, powerful countries, but other countries should do engage in a reformed discussion about how to make the world order
more applicable to today's world, because it is a reality that the world order that we are having now was based or is based on a world that was
different 50, 60, 70 years ago. But we need to reform it, not to abolish it.
AMANPOUR: Prime Minister Marin, is it different? I mean, you still have countries like Russia. It used to be called the Soviet Union. It was
threatening, you know, your border back then and it continues to threaten your border and it continues to, you know, prosecute a massive war in
Europe. How do you see it in terms of, you know, taking this forward, and of course this peace dialogue that you are talking is in honor of a former
Finnish president, Martti Ahtisaari, who is well known for his efforts to bring peace? But how do you see it, for instance, it's right in your face
in Europe and there's no end in sight?
SANTOS: Well, like President Ahtisaari and many base builders have been saying for a long time, you don't make peace with your friends, you make
peace with your enemy. So, of course, there's always room of negotiating diplomacy, trying to achieve peace.
[13:10:00]
But that doesn't mean that we need to be weak, that actually mean that we need to show leadership and take action and have the courage to also lead.
And I think this age where the multilateral system are being questioned and challenged and even by some who want to break the whole system that we have
been building, I think this is an age where Europe can show leadership to stand by the values that we believe in and the multilateral international
corporation and system that we have been building.
From a small country perspective with the long border with Russia, over 1,300 kilometers, entering a world where we don't have common rules and
obey those rules that we have set together seems very frightening. We are - - and we have been entering this age of strong men that want to lead by force also using military force. And I think that there's also hope.
We can also act against this trend or this phenomenon. We don't have to accept that this would be an end of multilateral system, but we need
courage and we need leadership. And I think Europe can also take this role now.
AMANPOUR: Let me just follow up because your current president, Alexander Stubb, was in the United States. He had a big round of golf and obviously a
lot of talks with President Trump and talking about Russia and Ukraine. He basically think -- said, I think we're very much in a situation whereby the
Americans are running out of patients with Putin for understandable reasons. And I think that's good news for the peace process.
So, I want to ask both of you first. First, to you, Sanna Marin. You know, Putin has -- was thrilled. Trump gave him everything verbally and even, you
know, in their face-to-face talks with his main envoy and on the phone, it seemed like he was really -- you know, the Americans were aligning with
Putin's view of this war.
So, what do you make of what your president said? How do you think America might change and should change in order to have a successful negotiation to
end the war?
MARIN: Well, I think that Trump administration, U.S. holds many keys to also influence to the end of the war. But unlike the actions we have seen
now, I think the real reaction and the actual reaction should be the opposite. I think Trump and U.S. should leverage Putin, not give him things
that he wants. I don't think that will result ending the war. I think Putin want to continue the war. And the only way to end the war is actually
strengthening the Ukrainian effort to defend themselves.
Give them enough weapon, give them enough aid, financial aid, and other aid as well, to make sure that they have the stronger position in negotiations
and to leverage with Russia and with Putin, that would result real peace negotiations and real lasting piece that wouldn't be shattered within a
couple of years ahead, like we have seen many times. So, I think that Trump has the keys, but he has to use it and leverage Putin, not give him things
for free.
AMANPOUR: Well, that's interesting. I was going to ask you, President Santos, leverage is a very important matter. If you have it, you need to
use it properly. President Trump is always talking about having leverage and somebody else doesn't have the cards and he does, and blah, blah, blah.
So, given your experience, what would you suggest in these intractable situations, whether it's Russia, Ukraine, or even whether it's the current
terrible war in the Middle East between Israel and Hamas, with the leveling of Gaza and the most collective punishment on the actual civilians, rather
than on defeating Hamas? How -- do you see any way out of that?
SANTOS: Well, one of the good things about President Trump is that he's disruptive in the sense that he takes the initiative to sit down and talk.
And as the founder of The Elders, Nelson Mandela used to say the most powerful weapon is to sit down and talk.
If he uses his leverage in a correct way, to bring peace, to force Russia to sign a peace -- an equitable and sustainable peace, if he is able to
force the situation in the Middle East to have peace based on the only solution that has been put on the table, which is the two-state solution,
then that would be a positive step forward.
[13:15:00]
But it depends on how you use that leverage that you'll get results. And I hope that those results will, in the end, be positive. Something that
President Trump has said that I hope he follows through, is that he is interested in sitting down and talking with Russia and with China on
nuclear disarmament.
The risk of a nuclear war right now is increasing tremendously, and the only way to avoid a nuclear incident is to sit down and talk about how to
control the nuclear arsenal of the different countries. So, in that way, if this disruption is channeled in the correct direction, then we can have
positive results. If it is channeled, of course, in the wrong direction, we could have very bad results.
AMANPOUR: I'm not going to ask you which way you think it's going, but things don't look great from here and from today anyway, particularly on
the issue of peace, justice matters. Today, Hungary's prime minister, Viktor Orban, who is hosting the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin
Netanyahu, has now pulled his country out of the ICC. You are both signatories to it.
Sanna Marin, what do you say about that? I mean, what kind of a signal is that to actually the seriousness of trying to pursue peace? And of course,
I forgot to say that the ICC has issued an arrest warrant for Benjamin Netanyahu and others over alleged war crimes over this war.
MARIN: Well, of course it's not a good signal. It's a bad signal. And I think it's very important when we are seeing wars, conflicts arise in the
world, we shouldn't send a message that we are not holding accountable of those who are committing war crimes, crimes against civilians. So, I think
they're going to be accountability. It's very important.
And it's very important also from the perspective of healing one's nation after being brutally attacked or committed crimes against. So, it's not a
good signal and I think that there will be also discussions within the European Union of Hungary's position, Viktor Orban's actions, like there
have been many times. But it's also important to have that table to discuss and engage and trying, of course, every European member country to respect
the international rules that we have all committed to.
AMANPOUR: We could go on for so much longer. Thank you so much for being with us, Prime Minister Sanna Marin, President Santos of Columbia, thank
you for being with us.
MARIN: Thank you so much.
SANTOS: Thank you, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Coming up, in these turbulent times, everyone needs an escape After the break, the feel-good film aims straight at the heart.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:20:00]
AMANPOUR: Next a feel-good film that's not strictly for our times, but is a bomb nonetheless, "The Ballad of Wallis Island" follows once folk legend
Herb McGwyer, who washes up on the shores of what he thinks is an intimate, private gig. Just how intimate becomes clear when he meets his quirky host
and super fan Charles. Here's a clip from the trailer.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Great Herb McGwyer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming all the way out there without your roadies, which brings me up to the thorny issue of payment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where will the audience be? You said there'd be a hundred.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I said less than a hundred.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it just you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm literally playing to one guy. I'm going to have to take out a restraining order now.
Can you shut the door?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I meant --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh my gosh. I'm so sorry. I'm not really used to having guests.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And there's another surprise waiting for Herb. Charles has also invited his former singing partner and lover, Nell, who's played by Carey
Mulligan, which makes for a tumultuous reunion.
The British comedy duo, Tim Key and Tom Basden wrote it and are also the film stars, and it's been 20 years in the making as they told me when they
came here into the studio.
Tim, Tom, welcome to the program. So, look, "The Ballad of Wallis Island," the great Richard Curtis has said, this is one of the 10 greatest British
movies of all time. Yes?
TIM KEY, ACTOR, "THE BALLAD OF WALLIS ISLAND": Yes. That was insane.
TOM BASDEN, ACTOR, "THE BALLAD OF WALLIS ISLAND": Yes. One of 10 -- I would've preferred one of the five, but, you know, I'll take one of the 10.
AMANPOUR: I know one of is also a pain in the neck.
KEY: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Ranked them.
KEY: He's probably got another three in there.
AMANPOUR: Is it a romcom, would you say?
BASDEN: It's -- no, I don't -- I mean, it's a com. There are romantic elements to it. But it's definitely not a classic romcom. In many ways
there's a -- you know, there's the romance you're rooting for is probably more between mine and Tim's character in a way. But certainly, yes, my
character, Herb and Carey Mulligan's character, Nell, have a rich history. And so, there's the kind of, will they get back together storyline.
AMANPOUR: What is the heart? What do you -- what's the story that you want to tell? If it's not a com or it's a rom or not, whatever.
KEY: We wanted to -- well, we made a lot of short movie of this 18 years ago. And so, we were telling a very simple story of a guy who comes to an
island and they don't know each other and they're sort of feeling each other out and they kind of -- I guess it's about friendship really, or, you
know, seeing the best in one another.
You know, he underestimates me, I'm too much for him. And eventually, we find an even keel and it's kind of very kind of loving. And I feel like
that was our starting point for the feature was we wanted to tape all of that and keep this nice relationship, central relationship between me and
my little friend. And then, we wanted to add some -- another dimension, some emotional kind of weight to it, and that's where Carey Mulligan's
character, Nell, comes in. And sort of elevates it into -- you know, from the shore into something that's more kind of meaty as a feature.
AMANPOUR: It is really -- I mean, it's got just so many bits that are flicking at you and they make a really coherent hole and they make you
laugh and they make you a little, you know, teary, but they make you feel- good. And I just wondered whether -- I realize you did the first short 18 years ago, and this clearly wasn't done, you know, after January 20th, the
inauguration of Trump. But is it, do you feel, the right movie for the time?
BASDEN: It's funny that, because we've had a lot of people getting in touch with us since the film came out in the States saying that this was the film
that they needed to see and saying like, I didn't know I needed this film, but this has been such a kind of cathartic thing for me to see something
that's got nothing to do with what's happening --
KEY: Some of them hugged us.
BASDEN: -- politically.
AMANPOUR: Some of them hugged you.
KEY: Some of them did.
BASDEN: I think, you know, obviously --
AMANPOUR: Because you premiered at Sundance.
KEY: That's right, yes. We premiered at Sun Dance, which was kind of overwhelming, but there were times when --
BASDEN: And that was about two days after Trump's inauguration. So, it was really --
AMANPOUR: It was red hot.
BASDEN: -- you know, quite intense time. Yes.
KEY: But we'd finished the film and they -- I think that was -- I don't know. We -- obviously, it's kind of strange that it wasn't in the U.K. to
premiere it. So, we were there anyway and wondering what people -- how people react. But no, people were so nice about it. But that was the main
thing. They said, this is exactly the film. And I think it's probably because we weren't trying to make a film that was exactly right for our
times. We weren't trying to fit it in anywhere. So, it's sort of somewhere elsewhere. And I think maybe that's what people want.
BASDEN: Yes, I think there's a lot of pressure on filmmakers, on, you know, writers generally to make stuff that's very relevant, that's really tapped
into a certain kind of trend or sort of idea and culture. And I think because this film doesn't do that, I think people have been quite surprised
and excited by just seeing something that just exists completely on its own terms.
AMANPOUR: So, of course we saw the trailer in the introduction, but I want to leave you two to give me a (INAUDIBLE) of what this film is about. You
start.
KEY: This guy can --
AMANPOUR: OK. You can.
KEY: This guy. Yes.
BASDEN: So -- OK. So, the idea of the film is that Charles here is a lottery winner who is a super fan of a group called Maguire Morser. And he
arranges and you're wearing the T-shirt. And I'm wearing the t-shirt. McGwyer Mortimer. And he arranges --
AMANPOUR: And you're wearing the T-shirt.
BASDEN: And I'm wearing the T-shirt.
AMANPOUR: McGwyer Mortimer.
BASDEN: Hopefully. And I play Herb McGwyer and Carey Mulligan plays Nell Mortimer.
[13:25:00]
KEY: I knock on the t-shirt.
BASDEN: And he -- sorry, mate. He arranges for the band to come together and play another gig, private gig just for him, but he doesn't tell us that
he's invited the other one. So, we get --
AMANPOUR: And he doesn't tell you that he's -- it's just one --
BASDEN: No, he's very sneaky. He's very lovable. Charles.
KEY: I'm not telling anyone anything.
BASDEN: He's very sneaky. He doesn't want to ruin it by telling us the whole story. So, we get --
KEY: But he is not a bad guy, you know? He just wants it to -- he needs it to happen. And he thinks everyone will be happy once they're there.
AMANPOUR: And he needs it to happen for a personal reason as well.
KEY: You do find that out later in the story?
AMANPOUR: Later.
KEY: Yes.
BASDEN: Yes.
KEY: Yes. That he's got his reasons.
AMANPOUR: He's grief stricken.
KEY: He's grief stricken.
AMANPOUR: And there's an anniversary coming up.
KEY: Yes. And I think that's a big part of the film is when you first meet both of them, you don't know much about them. And particularly my guy, you
might write him off as being a bit of a buffoon potentially. But as you go through, you kind of feel like he's like, you know, this -- like everyone,
he has his own story and his own past. And you know, he is sort of a fully formed human who's just trying to do something in his terms that's quite a
nice thing.
AMANPOUR: And also provide, you know, Herb and Nell, the two singers with quite a lot of money that they desperately need at this moment.
BASDEN: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Now, let me play the first clip that we're going to play, and that is in fact between you and Nell, and you know, as we said, Nell is
played by Carey Mulligan. We're going to watch this too. It's a little bit down memory lane. Let's check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BASDEN: Morning Hayes as an album.
CAREY MULLIGAN, ACTRESS, "THE BALLAD OF WALLIS ISLAND": No. So, what I'm saying is that was the first time that you could see where we were going.
BASDEN: No.
MULLIGAN: Like the first -- like stopped. I'm trying to do like rock.
BASDEN: Rock?
MULLIGAN: Yes.
BASDEN: Did you just say rock?
MULLIGAN: Yes.
BASDEN: When were we ever trying to do rock?
MULLIGAN: You --
BASDEN: What are you talking about?
MULLIGAN: You -- I remember you told (INAUDIBLE) that you wanted give your love to sound like the Libertines.
BASDEN: I -- come on.
KEY: Is that true?
MULLIGAN: Yes.
KEY: OK.
MULLIGAN: A hundred percent.
KEY: It's cool.
BASDEN: It wasn't what we were doing. It had nothing to do with the musical.
KEY: I've got to say, this is brilliant. I'm loving this. I'm absolutely loving this. Just McGwyer Mortimer, just exchanging anecdotes. Why not? I
feel like David Letterman. I really do, with a chicken xacuti.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And you really are -- I mean, you're just all in and you've got - - you've been to auctions and you've bought his old guitars. You say you think you have a lock of Nell's hair?
KEY: I think I do.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
KEY: I think I sold it.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
KEY: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Just quickly, obviously, Carey is married to Marcus Mumford of Mumford and Sons. Did that play any part in casting her?
KEY: No.
BASDEN: No. Not in terms of the casting of Carey. I mean, you know, Carey's just the person that was at the top of our list as the best possible fit
for the character of Nell, and we'd seen her sing in other films. So, we knew that she could do it.
AMANPOUR: So, she can sing and that was her.
BASDEN: -- very well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And can you sing and play? Was that you?
BASDEN: Yes, that was me. That was me. Thanks. Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Yes, that was good. It's convincing.
BASDEN: Good.
AMANPOUR: Very convincing.
BASDEN: But Marcus was very helpful when it came to like actually kind of getting some things about the music right. And also, when we started
recording the music as well, Marcus was on hand and was very helpful. Yes.
AMANPOUR: So, there's -- your life also is happening around this attempt to get this band together again. You don't tell Herb or you tell Nell that
Herb is coming, but you don't tell Herb, et cetera. So, he's kind of surprised. Then there's kind of an off-again on-again situation. Are we
going to have the concert? Somebody storms off in a half, in a rainstorm, this and that. No spoiler alerts. But you also are trying to assuage your
grief and there's a potential possible new love interest coming your way, potentially, who you tell him to get a move on.
BASDEN: Yes.
KEY: And so, does Nell, in fact.
BASDEN: Yes. Nell and her are both trying to motivate Charles to man up and ask out the lady who works in the local shop.
KEY: I think my life has kind of slowed down to a stop since, you know, my loss that I had. And so, I kind of, you know, prattle around and go to the
shop probably very regularly. And you get the impression maybe he's seen this girl a lot, likes this girl. But yes, that's what he gets from these
two. You know, he wants the music, but every time he goes to the shop with one of these, they're sort of desperately trying to sort of nudge him just
a little bit in her direction. She's played by Sian Clifford, who's absolutely fantastic.
AMANPOUR: And who was the sister "Fleabag."
KEY: Yes.
BASDEN: That's right.
AMANPOUR: Which is a -- this is such a different role -- she was such a neurotic --
BASDEN: Yes. I mean, she's so brilliant.
KEY: So, yes. We're kind of like obsessed, I think What -- when we watched the movie, I can't -- I just love it when they go into the shop.
AMANPOUR: Yes, it's very good.
KEY: The shop has got a kind of character of its own. And the scenes are sort of a little light.
AMANPOUR: And literally, everything is lost in translation.
KEY: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Like Nell comes from America and she's asking for Reese's Cup or Reese's Pieces, whatever they are. And the shop owner has zero idea.
KEY: She got something close.
AMANPOUR: Yes, like peanut butter. And then you screw up his phone and it tips in the water and you want rice and the shop owner gives you pasta or
rice pudding.
BASDEN: Rice pudding.
[13:30:00]
AMANPOUR: Holy cow.
BASDEN: Yes.
KEY: Almost.
AMANPOUR: I mean -- yes. It's funny. It is funny. I'm not doing it just as -- but it is cute. I want to play another clip and this is Herb and Nell
realizing how obsessed you are.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BASDEN: This my guitar?
KEY: No, no. We got that at auction. It is the one you recorded way back when on --
BASDEN: Yes, that's what I mean.
MULLIGAN: Oh, wow. You are a fan.
KEY: I am. In fact, Herb, if you do get a second, I wouldn't mind getting your paw print on that, please?
MULLIGAN: Have you got anything of mine?
KEY: Sorry?
MULLIGAN: Do you have anything of mine?
KEY: Yes.
MULLIGAN: What is it? Is it creepy?
KEY: It's hair. Yes.
MULLIGAN: Hair?
KEY: It's a lock of your hair. Yes.
MULLIGAN: Oh, my God.
KEY: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Was that even true in the film? Did you have a lock of hair?
BASDEN: Well, he thought he did.
KEY: Oh, yes.
AMANPOUR: Did you?
KEY: In the film -- yes. I think I've somehow bought something, which --
AMANPOUR: Somebody else's hair?
KEY: I think on eBay you can get people's hair.
AMANPOUR: Yes. OK. I thought you were just trying to humor her.
BASDEN: I imagine your hair's out there on eBay. I imagine.
AMANPOUR: I think I could be a good a good co-star in this. You know, laughs aside, what are you -- or are you trying to say anything about the
good old days, nostalgia, connecting to things that have been ruptured, in this case, nine years ago?
BASDEN: Yes. No, I think that's a big part of the film that all the characters are, in their own way, stuck in the past, or they're slightly
addicted to a part of their life that was just really wonderful and at a time when they were, you know, younger and more hopeful, more positive
maybe. And as they've got older and more jaded, they kind of look back to that time. And I think the film is about all of these characters in
different ways, recognizing that they need to move on and recognizing that things have changed, and they can't get back the things that they don't
have anymore.
And, you know, and when you talk about the relevance now, that's certainly a theme in the film that people have brought up as something that they
really -- you know, that they -- a storyline that really meant a lot to them. And something that feels like it's -- is more kind of relevant than
maybe we realized that the sort of trend for nostalgia now has become quite overwhelming.
KEY: Yes. Yes.
BASDEN: So, this is a film which is itself not nostalgic, because it's a completely new story, but it is about nostalgia.
AMANPOUR: And it's pre -- or at least it's separated from constantly being on your smartphone, constantly being attached to the internet and all of
those pressure.
BASDEN: That's right. Well, Herb's phone gets, you know, basically ruined in the first kind of couple of seconds of the film. So, it is about people
who have no choice but to engage.
AMANPOUR: Communicate.
KEY: Yes, and I don't think it was like ever entirely the plan to -- well, obviously, these themes were coming through, but I think it was just by
fluke really. And what -- because what was happening was the more we've talked about the film since we made it, is that's exactly what we've done.
We've kind of gone back to a period 18 years ago when we made the short film, Me, Tom, and also Griff, the director. And we've all separately, for
18 years, just sort of longed to kind of go back to that period.
AMANPOUR: And, you know, just as you're speaking, it reminds me that everybody's talking about adolescence, the film about kind of toxic
masculinity for another -- you know, and the pressures on children, on their parents and smartphones and this and that, the internet, social
media. This is a really heartwarming and not often seen film about a close male friendships.
KEY: Yes.
AMANPOUR: I think that's unusual to see these days.
BASDEN: I think it maybe is, which is kind of mad that it is an unusual thing to see.
AMANPOUR: But it's not getting the exposure.
BASDEN: No, maybe not. Maybe it's not.
KEY: Well, I think when we started writing, we've written together for years, and I don't know, when we're writing two handers, we started writing
sketches. And I think we didn't tend to write sketches that had a lot of kind of poison or nastiness in them. For some reason, although it's quite
counterintuitive, we'd write sketches that were kind of a lot of bono me (ph) and a lot of people getting on, which shouldn't really work. People
just getting really excited about making pickle and things like that.
BASDEN: Yes.
KEY: And so, yes, when we started making longer things, short films and things like that, I think we went forward with that. We like the -- we have
a very prickly relationship in the film, but we wanted that things ---
AMANPOUR: But it's very warm.
KEY: Yes. We wanted that thing to happen where we went to --
BASDEN: Yes. And I think we wanted to root for the friendship.
KEY: Two people like one another.
AMANPOUR: Yes. And it is, you are rooting for the friendship. And the friendship is sort of blooming despite, you know, your grumpiness and your,
you know, weirdness and all the aspects. Talking about writing together, is that -- who wrote -- did you write the music?
BASDEN: Oh, I wrote the music. Yes.
AMANPOUR: Are you a musician?
BASDEN: I mean, you tell me. He --
AMANPOUR: I mean, the music, like the notes.
KEY: He writes notes.
AMANPOUR: Wow.
KEY: He writes all the notes.
BASDEN: I -- but I write it on the guitar. So, I don't write them -- I don't write the actual notes.
AMANPOUR: So, you actually play the guitar?
BASDEN: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Oh, OK.
BASDEN: There's no camera trickery there.
AMANPOUR: OK. I thought you'd learn it for the --
KEY: No, here's -- this was the thing. When we first started doing it, we're trying to work the short film, trying to work out how to do that, how
to make a really believable musician on screen. So, I was talking to him about, well, we need to get someone involved.
[13:35:00]
And he's like, I'll do that. I'm like, that's what -- obviously not. Anyway, we didn't get anyone involved. He did it. And yes, he can do
basically anything.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, one of the things I did pick up was that you met at Cambridge Footlights, which is the famous if -- just for our audience, the famous
place at Cambridge University, the drama sort of space where so much successful British comedy and drama and all the rest of it has emanated
from. How did you meet there? Which one of you was there? Which one of you weren't at Cambridge?
KEY: Very clever. You've done your research.
AMANPOUR: I'm outing you.
KEY: This is very good. He was at Cambridge, studying. He's a high flyer.
AMANPOUR: So, you were really --
BASDEN: I was staying legitimately. I was --
KEY: He's a very intelligent man. And I was living there with my parents.
AMANPOUR: Living in Cambridge?
KEY: Yes. Yes. And yes, I pretended momentarily that I was at Cambridge in order to get into the comedy scene.
AMANPOUR: Which is the Footlights, right?
KEY: The Footlights, yes. It was opportunism. Yes.
AMANPOUR: And an opportunity.
KEY: And I met -- you know, that's how I got into it. That's -- I met him. I met a man called Alex Horn, who does Task Master and various other
people, Mark Watson, Stefan Gorgievski (ph), and Lloyd Wolf (ph). All these people who we still like work together and see each other. And --
AMANPOUR: Any tips? How do you get in? Do you have a fake I.D.?
KEY: I might have blown it for everyone else.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
KEY: I mean, you just go in with confidence.
BASDEN: You've got to -- securities a bit tighter these days.
KEY: Know what you're studying. Know where -- know which college you're at. I mean --
AMANPOUR: What were you studying?
KEY: I was studying Russian literature.
AMANPOUR: No, I don't believe it.
KEY: Yes.
BASDEN: But he told he was at a certain college and then had to wait there for all day.
KEY: Oh. I told him I was at Sydney Sussex College and then we had a rehearsal in Sydney Sussex College. So, someone else in the cast met me at
the Porter's Lodge, as they call it. And then, we walked to the -- and I didn't know where we were going. I ended up sort of walking against a wall
for a bit like a cartoon character. Yes.
AMANPOUR: That's good.
KEY: Yes.
AMANPOUR: That's a good story.
KEY: It was worth -- yes, it was worth doing it.
AMANPOUR: Yes. And you've been together all these years and this is wonderful. The Ballad of Wallis Island." Tim, Tom, thank you so much
indeed.
BASDEN: Thanks for having us.
KEY: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: And the film is out now in the United States. It'll be out May 30th here in the U.K. Coming up after the break, the Democrats need a
rethink. Is Rahm Emanuel the one to lead it? He speaks to Walter Isaacson next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: The Democrats are bruised and battered, but starting to fight back. There's been widespread frustration that its national leadership has
not formulated a more effective opposition to Trump, but also new wind in their sails from a win in Wisconsin this week and Cory Booker's record-
breaking speech to Congress on all the ills they see coming from Trump.
[13:40:00]
One party stalwart is positioning himself as the one to push back hard against Trumpism. Rahm Emanuel. He worked for President Clinton, was
President Obama's chief of staff, mayor of Chicago, and most recently, ambassador to Japan. And he's joining Walter Isaacson.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER ISAACSON, CO-HOST, AMANPOUR AND CO.: Thank you, Christiane. And, Rahm Emanuel, welcome to the show.
RAHM EMANUEL, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO JAPAN AND FORMER CHICAGO MAYOR: Thank you, Walter.
ISAACSON: Just this week in Wisconsin, we saw the more progressive candidate for the Supreme Court beat the one that was supported by Elon
Musk and Donald Trump. Do you think this is a bit of a turning point in Trump's popularity, a pushback on him, and how do you analyze it?
EMANUEL: Obviously, they made Elon Musk the target for Democrats and Republicans made their argument for Trump their calling card, and they lost
not just kind of in a close state, they lost not close by 10 points. That's a blowout by any imagination anywhere in the country in politics,
especially in the battleground state like that.
If you look a little below the hood is the depth of the Democrats wasn't just isolated to Milwaukee and Madison, there was a statewide -- this is a
statewide victory. It wasn't a two-county victory. So, that's kind of significant. And the money both for the Supreme Court in Wisconsin was
significant.
ISAACSON: Despite the victory for the Democrats in Wisconsin a lot of people, including a lot of Democrats, have said that the Democratic brands
has become somewhat toxic. Is there some truth of that? And if so, why?
EMANUEL: Yes, I would take the word somewhat out. It's toxic. I don't think you have to caveat or put a disclaimer on it. And I think the way I would
see it is there's two words that define the Democratic Party for the public, weak and woke. And neither one of them are favorable. And that's
been a process of the Democrats identifying and being weak and seen as weak in a period of time that people want. They always do, but prefer strength.
And woke being not just kind of woke on the cultural left set of issues, but focused almost entirely and drowning out everything else you want to
say.
And so, that's why the brand has taken more than just kind of a bruising. It's down in the dumps. The way I describe this, Walter, and the way I look
at this is if you're anti-Trump in this moment in time, that's going to get you political points. Trump's job approval's now down to 42 and no reason
that it doesn't continue to slide as the economy slides. And he doesn't evoke more on Greenland than on the price of groceries. And I think that
the American people to give us a more than a vote against Trump, but an affirmative vote for the Democrats, we need an agenda built on what I
believe is the cost of the American Dream has made it unaffordable for the American people.
You and I grew up in a time where owning a home, saving for your retirement, saving for your kids' education, and a healthcare and a
holiday, that's the bulwark, the pillars of the American Dream. Your kids, my kids, they're going to have access to it, but if only 10 percent of the
children in America have access to the American Dream, it's not very American. And it's unaffordable to the American people, and we should be
angry about it.
The American people want a shot and they want their children to have a shot at the American Dream, and all they have gotten out of Washington is the
chaff. And that's the truth and we have to acknowledge it.
ISAACSON: But the party has become perceived, in fact, it's some truth to this perception as a party of the elites as opposed to the working class.
How do you get talking to regular ordinary people again?
EMANUEL: Yes. I mean, that's a good question. And you know, a lot of times, Walter, and you were there and I'm a disciple coming. My political
maturation happens working for the Clinton '92 election, while a lot of people focused on James Carville's, oh, it's the economy, stupid, to have
that economy piece heard, you had to have a whole series of issues on what I would call the cultural plane on crime, on immigration, on drugs, et
cetera. You have to be right with the American people, and you have to be right with their -- not just their tolerance, but not let that tolerance
become permissiveness.
Now, you look at whether it was defund the police or debates about pronouns or using Latinx as a way to describe or open border policy that nobody's
illegal, but they're only undocumented, a whole host of issues. They will turn the volume down and put us on mute. You will never get to the economic
argument if you're culturally adrift and off terror.
And the reason, if you go back 30 years in politics, which I have, we used to be a party of liberals, moderates, and current conservatives who made up
more proportionately, moderate and conservative, self-identified Democrats, African American and Hispanic. So, the more we become liberal, white,
coastal, highly educated, those voters, moderate and conservatives were walking out the back door because that's not the party they identified with
anymore.
[13:45:00]
And it wasn't just economics, it was being right on a series of issues that they then were open to a whole set of other arguments. And if you go
through the two most successful presidential candidates since Franklin Delano Roosevelt, electorally, President Clinton and Barack Obama both get
elected and get re-elected, and that's the test of electoral success, not one term, two terms, is they took on whether it was President Obama on the
issue of fatherhood and being a responsible father and, you know, he was attacked for being a deporter in chief, or President Clinton when he was
running, dealing with the issue of crime, dealing with the issue of welfare and saying welfare -- ending welfare as we know it. A very infamous speech
that has now has become a shorthand for what I'm discussing called sister soldier moment.
ISAACSON: You talk about the sister soldier moment when President Clinton sort of spoke truth, stood up to a more progressive wing of the party and
some of the rhetoric it had. Give me the sister soldier moment you would say right now.
EMANUEL: To be a presidential candidate. And when you're running for president, you have to you have to project three qualities, strength,
confidence, and optimism. And you can't allow one individual constituency to look like they're bigger than the rest of the team, and only one person
is the coach and the quarterback, and that's the president.
And so, to me you say pick it, that means it's kind of a calculation. And I will tell you, having been there in -- specifically for President Clinton,
it wasn't like we just the moment arrived and there was a decision to make given that we were running and the basic theory of the case of President
Clinton's candidacy was a different Democrat. The arguments calling for legitimization of killing people who were white as retribution for what was
going on post Rodney King. That was kind of -- it presented itself in the same way that other moments, whether it was on parenting, fatherhood, or
Pastor Wright for President Obama presented themselves.
I think there's opportunities. I have spoken as it relates to -- I think we've lost focus on why does a parent send a kid to a school? It's not
because, oh, I'm happy that it's not George Washington anymore, what the name of the school is or, you know, bathroom and locker room discussion.
Here, you pick a neighborhood or community. So, that's a good school for your child. That's where we should be laser-like focused and have an agenda
that's consistent with raising reading and math scores, but more importantly, not get sidetracked into a debate that is frivolous, not to
the parents of that child, but it doesn't dominate the entire agenda of education.
And I think, you know, when you look at it, Walter, let's take a look at what's happening. I mean, we're having arguments about bathrooms, and four
weeks ago the NAP scores came out, which are the national report card. And it came and went that we've had the worst reading scores in 30 years. Do
you see a large debate going on in the country? Do you see governors, mayors leading that debate now? Well, the American people aren't going to
give you a lot of credibility to you if they don't hear you speaking to someone that is really intimate to them, which is the quality of the
education their child is getting.
ISAACSON: Why is it that NAP -- that the education is going down? Why are classrooms getting worse?
EMANUEL: There's some basic, common themes that I think are very, very important. One is more time in the classroom on topic. The time in the
classroom on topic is also basics. There's also, whether it's third grade on reading or freshman year or high school on math, there are early signs
where you get the canary in the coal mine and you have to then kind of, early on, do early intervention with one-on-one tutoring.
And then the last thing, now I -- this is where I got my chops when I was mayor. Chicago, when I became mayor, had the shorter school day and the
shorter school year in the United States of America. If we just went to average, by way of example, kids in Houston got, throughout their lifetime,
two and a half more years of education, just because their class time was more than a kid in Chicago. We added an hour and 15-minute for elementary
kids, 45 minutes for high school kids, two weeks to the year or 10 more days. That equaled to two years from kindergarten to high school. Just by
adding that time.
Kids post-COVID are basically triple absentee rates than they were pre- COVID, and I think we need a national number. You get north of 7 percent as a child for the school day -- for the school year, you're not matriculating
from fourth to fifth grade. Forget about it. And I think we need a national, absolute standard.
[13:50:00]
Parents and kids have basically made a four-day school. Kids need to be in the school at minimum five. You need early intervention, you need more time
on topic, and you need to go back to the basics of both teaching, reading, writing, and arithmetic. And it's not that -- it's -- that is not
complicated. And then, poor kids need actually more than the -- your children and my children. It's just a fact.
ISAACSON: President Trump has been tugging all this week about tariffs, trying to impose it. Do you think tariffs make some sense now in terms of
an economic populism to bring manufacturing back to the United States?
EMANUEL: No, not as being executed by the president. Look, these tariffs go up, your 401(k) and your life savings go down. And two, your tariffs -- the
tariffs are about to go up and European countries, the Canadians are rethinking whether they want to buy U.S. defense weapons, which means the
manufacturing jobs here in the United States that they used to buy those weapons from will decline.
President Xi has made a major mistake economically in China. They were -- think about what you were reading just three, four months ago about the
economy in China, for the first time he basically, because of what he did to the private sector, what happened with the housing bubble that he
bursted, he isolated China within the region and we took advantage of that. He lost Europe because of his alignment with Russia.
We had China as good as corner we had in a decade. Now, China's economy is seen as the envy, and America is seen as the people that money is fleeing
from America and less -- and there's less investment. I think the tariffs have been one of the worst on goals you'll see. If the Democratic
vulnerability was being perceived as weak and woke, I would say to you that the Republican vulnerability under Trump is corrupt and betrayal.
And the thing that is happening is not only the type of political, economic, financial corruption that's going on, but also the betrayal
having told you I was going to focus on price of groceries, I'm fixated with the price of Greenland. And I think that's becoming ever more
apparent.
ISAACSON: When people ask you, might you run for president? You always say, well, I hope public service -- I'm not finished with public service. Public
service ain't finish with me. But tell me, walk me through what will be the factors, what will be the things you'll think about in deciding whether to
run for higher office?
EMANUEL: You know, I think a lot of people will be discussing and living and fighting and arguing and pushing against Trump. And I don't dismiss
that because I think he is a current, real present danger on a whole host of fronts. But I don't want to be the person only fighting against Trump. I
want to be fighting for the American people. And I want to make sure that in my soul of soul, I think the things we did like being the first city
that if you got a B average, we made community college free.
We made -- we expanded education to both kindergarten and pre-K for all kids. We made it that you couldn't get a diploma for high school unless you
showed us a letter of acceptance from college, community college, a branch of the armed forces or vocational school. We made post-high school
education universal. That I have something that is distinct and different to offer. And if I feel I have that. I'll make that decision.
I joke sometimes. I was a raging moderate before it became trade (ph) sheep to be a moderate. And others, all of a sudden, have decided, oh, that's
where I want to be philosophically. So, I want -- maybe on minimum I'll make sure the party doesn't do a Thelma Louise and drive off the cliff
again at 80 miles an hour, philosophically, ideologically. And the American people hang their hat on us. We've got to answer the call.
ISAACSON: Rahm Emanuel, thank you so much for joining us.
EMANUEL: Thanks Walter.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And finally, we end the week with some art to soothe soul. Here are some beautiful images of the inimitable Maro Gorky at work, painting
the Tuscan countryside where she lives, and inspired by travels in China, Greece, and the Sinai Desert. And now, her paintings can be seen at the
Thread of Color, a stunning new exhibition of the Saatchi Gallery here in London, which celebrates her life and her work.
She's the daughter of the renowned Armenian American artist, Arshile Gorky, one of the founders of abstract expressionism. Maro says, in my paintings,
I'm trying to be truthful. They're not of reality, but of the sensation reality has on my own mind.
[13:55:00]
And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always
catch us online, on our website and all-over social media. Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
