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Amanpour
Interview with Former U.S. Ambassador to Israel and Egypt Daniel Kurtzer; Interview with "When It All Burns" Author Jordan Thomas; Interview with Emmy-Winning Actor and "Karen: A Brother Remembers" Author and Emmy- Winning Actor Kelsey Grammer; Interview with "Klara and the Sun" Author Kazuo Ishiguro. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired May 13, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Trump kicks off his Gulf States tour in Saudi Arabia. He's set on deal making, but what else is on the agenda? I ask former U.S. ambassador to
Egypt and Israel, Daniel Kurtzer.
Then, "When It All Burns" I speak to former firefighter and author Jordan Thomas about facing wildfires up close.
And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EMMY-WINNING ACTOR AND AUTHOR, "KAREN: A BROTHER REMEMBERS": The horror of what happened Karen is now eclipsed by how wonderful she was. And that's a
lot of freedom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- actor Kelsey Grammer tells Michel Martin about his new memoir on the Love and Loss of his sister Karen, who was brutally murdered
50 years ago.
Also, ahead, as Kazuo Ishiguro's debut novel heads for the Cannes Film Festival, we remember Christiane's conversation with the Nobel Prize
winning author.
Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Making deals and shoring up allies. U.S. President Donald Trump is in Saudi Arabia, royally welcomed this morning by Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.
It is the first stop on Trump's first major foreign trip since returning to office.
After Riyadh, he'll go on to Gulf States, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, putting deal making with some of the world's richest countries
and people front and center. All in all, Trump hopes to sign agreements worth $1 trillion. Speaking at the Saudi-U.S. Investment Forum, the
President had this to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: The U.S.-Saudi relationship has been a bedrock of security and prosperity. Today we reaffirm this important bond
and we take the next steps to make our relationship closer, stronger, and more powerful than ever before. It is more powerful than ever before. And
by the way, it will remain that way. We don't go in and out like other people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: During his speech, he also announced plans to lift U.S. sanctions on Syria's new government to, quote, "give them a chance at
greatness."
Absent from this Middle East trip though is Israel. On Monday, the U.S. went around Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu to secure the release of Edan
Alexander, the final living American hostage out of Gaza. It appears to be part of a larger pattern with America, also engaging in direct talks with
Iran, indirect talks with Hamas, and agreeing to a ceasefire deal with the Houthis in Yemen.
To assess this all, let's bring in Daniel Kurtzer. He served as U.S. ambassador to both Egypt and Israel, and for a long time was a central
player in the Middle East process. Mr. Ambassador, thank you so much for joining us.
And you come with a lot of breaking news as we are just getting word that Israel had targeted Hamas leader, Mohammed Sinwar the brother of Yahya
Sinwar is now the de facto leader of Hamas after his brother was killed by the IDF last October. This occurring in a strike on a hospital in Southern
Gaza today. Israel saying that Hamas was using this hospital as a command center, no indication as to whether they actually killed Mohammed Sinwar.
But from your perspective, the significance of this strike happening, of course, as the president is in the region.
DANIEL KURTZER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL AND EGYPT: Well, thank you for inviting me. Look, targeted killings by Israel have had their ups
and downs. On the one hand, they've had great success in debilitating their enemies, whether it's Hamas or Hezbollah. And in their view, knocking out
the leadership allows for perhaps the emergence of different leadership that might have different views.
On the other hand, as I heard when I was stationed in Israel years ago, without knowing what new leaders might do, Israel enters into an unknown
prospect. They knew Yahya Sinwar, they had him in jail for many years. They know or knew Mohammed Sinwar. And now, we don't know what's going to emerge
and how radical or not the new leadership may be.
[13:05:00]
GOLODRYGA: Well, this could be interpreted a number of ways. One is perhaps this gives an out to Prime Minister Netanyahu, who's been facing
immense pressure from the far-right members of his coalition for a renewed defensive inside of Gaza, going deeper and harder, even though it appears
that there is more daylight between the United States and Israel that this -- him announcing that they had killed the de facto leader of Hamas, if
that does prove to be true, could give him some opportunity for a ceasefire right now and declare at least a short-term victory, or perhaps, as I would
imagine, some of these hostage family members are very concerned about what this means for further negotiations and a possible ceasefire hostage
release deal. Which option do you think is more likely here?
KURTZER: I think Netanyahu is pinned in by his coalition. On the one hand, he is feeling pressure from the Trump administration not to enlarge the
invasion or to -- in another incursion into Gaza. But on the other hand, he has coalition partners who are insisting that this war not come to an end.
And so, the assassination of Mohammed Sinwar may allow Netanyahu to claim a small victory. But he will face a tremendous pressure from the extremist
members of his coalition to continue until what they call victory, which is the complete demolishing of Hamas in Gaza.
GOLODRYGA: Sticking to the president's trip in Saudi Arabia now. It was interesting to hear him say himself that Saudi Arabia will eventually join
the Abraham Accords and normalize relationships with Israel in, quote, "its own time."
Obviously, this had been a process that President Biden and started and it appeared was quite near completion until October 7th occurred. And since
then, Mohammad bin Salman has taken a real defiant tone and saying that this cannot be completed, normalization cannot happen until the war in Gaza
comes to an end and until there's at least a pathway to a Palestinian State.
So, what do you make of the president even raising that today in his speech?
KURTZER: Well, I think what the president is doing is trying to lower expectations. Everyone has been looking at the prospect of Saudi-Israeli
normalization now for several years. We know after October 7th, the Saudi requirements or demands with respect to a Palestinian State increased quite
dramatically. We know that those demands are probably too much for Netanyahu to agree.
And so, the president, in a sense, has become realistic about the prospects of normalization, even while enhancing our relationship bilaterally with
the Saudis. And so, it's a way of sending a signal to Israel that it's not likely that they're going to get normalization, but also telling the Saudis
that it will remain on the agenda over time and hopefully, prove to be a possibility at some point in the future.
GOLODRYGA: In the meantime, the real focus here has been on business investments between the United States and Saudi Arabia. The announcement of
a $600 billion investment from Saudi Arabia in the United States, including some $142 billion in defense sales. The president had been hoping for a $1
trillion or anything north of a trillion dollars. I think he just likes the sound and the symbolism of a trillion-dollar deal.
But Saudi Arabia, though obviously extremely wealthy right now in looking to diversify, finds itself in an economically squeezed position as well as
oil prices have continued to go down. MBS did say that he hopes to get to $1 trillion. But just talk about the dynamics at play in this trip right
now.
KURTZER: Well, I think as we saw in Trump's first administration, there were a lot of announcements after his trip to Saudi Arabia, but not many of
them were fulfilled. And we may see the same pattern here. The president wants to come home with a bag full of goodies. The $600 billion, if not
more, of investment, a large investment in A.I. in California. Probably a Trump Hotel in Saudi Arabia. A Trump golf course in the UAE. His son
developed some crypto business last week in a conference in the Gulf. And of course, there's that 747 Air Force One gift from the Qataris.
So, the president wants to announce all of this. And it will make a large splash whether or not anything happens as a result of it will take time and
therefore, is not that important in terms of the president's agenda.
What's missing from this agenda, however, is anything related, so far at least, to the priorities that he's assigned to reaching a deal on Gaza to
end the war. There's some rumors that he may announce an initiative, but there's no indication that he's talked to the Israelis about this. And
therefore, this could be another surprise that hits the Israelis if an announcement is forthcoming while the president is in the Gulf.
[13:10:00]
GOLODRYGA: And no word yet in terms of reporting on our end as to whether the Trump administration was given a heads up about this strike targeting
Mohammed Sinwar as well while he is in the region.
You mentioned there, you brushed over what is not typical U.S. policy, and that is a crossing of personal finances and U.S. interest. And yet, that's
what we are seeing play out here during this visit in broad daylight.
I mean, The New York Times is reporting that the Trump family has six pending deals with the Saudi-owned real estate firm, the crypto deal, as
you noted as well. The UAE is investing in a luxury villa as well, and as is the government of Qatar. And then there's the $400 million plane that
the Qatari are expecting to gift President Trump, that will be used as Air Force One.
I mean, how unusual is this from your perspective and your experience, and how dangerous could this be for national security?
KURTZER: You know, Bianna, this is nothing less than an ethical swamp. And it's going to take a significant action by Congress to persuade the
president that this is not the direction he should be going. Look, even some of his supporters, Ben Shapiro, Laura Loomer have come out against the
airplane. And there's been pushback also on these private deals that are benefiting and enriching the Trump family while the president is in office.
So, we are watching a significant deterioration in the ethical standards that are supposed to govern our elected officials. And you know, it could
go further. I call it a swamp. It could end up being an almost bottomless pit, the way this president seems to confuse or to paper over the
difference between what's done in the national interest and how it benefits himself.
GOLODRYGA: And yet, the president said multiple times just this week that you'd have to be stupid not to accept a plane, a free luxury plane from
Qatar to use as Air Force One. Can you talk about the difference in what the U.S. is delivering the Saudis as opposed to what they are delivering
for the United States?
Because these investments are one thing, it's clear that the Saudis want something much more significant, and that is a defense PAC with the United
States specifically and hopes a green light from the United States for the development of their own nuclear program.
KURTZER: Well, there's no question that if the president promises those two Saudi demands, it'll be a big deal. And in fact, the Saudis will
celebrate. What he's expecting in return are lower oil prices, which, as you noted earlier, the Saudis are running into their own economic trouble
because of oil prices. And he's also looking for steadfast support for what may emerge in an Iran nuclear deal.
You remember that when President Obama was negotiating that deal, the Saudis and the Gulf States and Israel were very much opposed to American
diplomacy. And it may be that this time the president will lay down the law with these allies and say, I'm going to do this. We're not sure what he's
doing, frankly, there's no -- it doesn't seem to be much of a strategy, but I think he's going to expect these countries to come on board, even if they
have reservations about the future of Iranian hegemonic activities in the region.
GOLODRYGA: And I'm just reading some of his comments today in Riyadh as it pertains to the Iran talks, and he said, now is time for Iran to choose how
it proceeds, as he warned that it can never have a nuclear weapon. That is a constant refrain we hear from the president of this administration. But
obviously, it's the details about what they are allowed to have that has many worried, first and foremost, Israel, and that is what they are allowed
to produce and enrich in their own country.
Do you foresee a scenario where enrichment is permitted as part of this deal inside Iran?
KURTZER: Well, this what we don't know about American strategy, if there is a strategy. We've heard from the American negotiator, Witkoff, that it
may be possible for Iran to enrich uranium at a level of 3.67 percent, which was allowed under the joint comprehensive plan of action. And then,
we've heard from other officials that we're going to require complete dismantlement of the program.
And I think the absence of clarity, both in private and public, are hurting our negotiating ability -- is hurting our negotiating ability.
[13:15:00]
You know, if we don't accomplish something more than what was in the JCPOA, we will look back with tremendous regret at the fact that in 2018, this
president pulled us out of the JCPOA and Iran enhanced its enrichment capability in the meantime.
And so, you may be looking at something was called in an op-ed yesterday or the day before, more for more, the president will offer Iran more sanctions
relief, but will demand more on nuclear limitations.
GOLODRYGA: And as we've heard from experts, they could be just weeks away from having the capability to build a bomb and develop a bomb at that. If
there wasn't enough news, we also heard that the president will be meeting with the new leader of Syria, al-Sharaa, on Wednesday, tomorrow, and also
reported to be lifting U.S. sanctions on Syria. There had been a lot of hope perhaps that there could be more stability and peace in the country
following the ouster of Bashar al-Assad.
I'm curious to get your perspective. Has the new president shown enough willingness for that to deserve to have sanctions lifted?
KURTZER: Well, we know that our president likes to negotiate at the summit and I just hope he's prepared in that meeting to understand the difference
between a meeting and what emerges from the meeting. Al-Sharaa has talked the talk about presenting a more moderate face, about not threatening
Israel, trying to establish unitary control over the country, but we haven't seen a great deal of action yet, or success. And therefore, it
would be advisable for the president to say to al-Sharaa, look, we're prepared to begin reducing and ultimately lifting sanctions, but we have to
see performance.
And that would require a kind of action for action scenario in which we lay out the kinds of things. That would make sense for Syria and for us. And in
return for that, the United States begins to reduce sanctions.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Ambassador Daniel Kurtzer, thank you so much for the time and expertise. Appreciate it.
KURTZER: My pleasure. Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: And still to come for us after the break, as wildfires continue to cause devastation around the U.S., we hear from one of those who braved
the frontlines to discuss the reality of firefighting during the climate crisis.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: We turn now to a worryingly familiar story. Tinderbox conditions are sparking wildfires across the globe. In America's Midwest,
some residents are being evacuated with large areas on high alert. In the U.K., an unseasonably dry spring has led to forest blades up and down the
country.
Around the world, wildfires are becoming more frequent and intense and more unpredictable. Californians know this all too well as they still work to
rebuild after the brutal fires earlier this year. Well, one man who has witnessed those brutal fires up close is Jordan Thomas, working for a
special wildland firefighting unit in California. His new book, "When It All Burns," takes readers inside one six-month fire season. Jordan joins me
now from Boston.
[13:20:00]
Jordan Thomas, welcome to the program. First of all, in your book you share your experience of joining the Los Padres Hotshots. And I have to say my
entire team, and I said we have never heard of a firefighting hotshot. Can you explain what that is?
JORDAN THOMAS, AUTHOR, "WHEN IT ALL BURNS": Yes, they give you really cool job titles in the forest service. So, hotshots, official job title. They're
like the special forces. They're like the Navy Seals of wildland firefighting. And with wildland firefighting, it's different from urban
firefighting because you're not using water. It's a very different job from the typical idea of fire engines and dalmatians because you're out in the
mountains, deep in the wilderness, you often get dropped off there by helicopters.
And so, what you do as a wildland firefighter is you go to the edge of the flames with chainsaws and you're cutting brush and vegetation away from the
fire to contain it, often in really intense terrain and really intense heat. So, it's a group of extreme tactical athletes with really extreme
knowledge of fire because they have to navigate these fires to survive them.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. We are looking at actual pictures of you during one of these fires. Can you talk to us about the accident where you actually fell
off a cliff during one of the fires?
THOMAS: That was during the heat dome on the West Coast that happened in 2021, which actually killed many, many people across the West Coast. And
there was a wildfire in California at the time. There were actually multiple, and we were on one of them. So, it was the hottest conditions
that had ever been recorded in the area, and it was during spring.
And we were trying to contain the fire because it was burning towards a town and it was, you know, a full day of cutting through brush, trying to
get around the fire in the hottest conditions ever reported in the area.
So, imagine -- and our water that we were using to stay hydrated was the temperature of the surrounding air, right? It was around 120 degrees,
jacuzzi or a hot tub is like 103 degrees. So, imagine water is so uncomfortably hot that you wouldn't even want to sit in it and drinking
that to try to stay warm or dumping that on your head to try to cool off.
It's a -- it's -- well, the devastation of fires in these contexts is really extreme because it's like throwing the driest wood you can imagine
onto a campfire. It just ignites. And then, the physical sensation of trying to navigate that and trying to stay sharp enough to stay safe in
those contexts is really difficult to explain, but it's extremely painful and it's something that, you know, wildland firefighters deal with,
frontline communities around the world deal with, and essential workers all over the place deal with.
So, it's just a really good example of really the real violence that climate change is inflicting on a lot of the people who we should be
valuing in society and valuing more in society.
GOLODRYGA: How many hotshot firefighters are there right now? And I would imagine the demand for firefighters like yourself has only increased with
climate change and the spike in the number of wildfires that we've seen.
THOMAS: Yes. You know, we -- so, typically, it's hard to track on a year- by-year basis. But typically, there's around 2,000 hotshots in the forest service, which is around the same amount of people in the NFL. So, it's a
tough job to get into. There's not very many people, but the jobs are harder and harder to fill because they're not very well compensated. And
there's not very good healthcare for these people long-term, when they develop chronic illnesses.
So, while, yes, the demand is increasing and the need for these people is increasing, as wildfires become more extreme because of climate change,
it's actually becoming harder and harder to fill these spots and to staff these crews.
And this year, there was a hiring freeze instituted by the Trump administration on -- across the forest service, including wildland
firefighting. So, it's -- yes, the demand is there, but the infrastructure to support this job in a way that will bring people in and keep people in
the job is actually decreasing, which is mixing quite difficult and quite dangerous at a number of different levels.
GOLODRYGA: And obviously, climate change predates by many years, many decades, the Trump administration, but you noted on the massive cuts for
federal programs like this that he's enacted already in the early months of his second term. Can you just talk about the impact -- personal views
aside, the impact that will likely have on what we can assume will just be the expectation of more of these dangerous deadly wildfires in the months
and years to come?
THOMAS: Yes. So, with this, it's really important to kind of step back and look at broad trends, right? So, because wildfires, they vary on a year-by-
year basis. But the broad trends are clear, right, 18 of the 20 largest fires in California's recorded have burned just in the past couple of
decades.
[13:25:00]
Fires -- a recent article in the Scientific Journal of Science noted that fires are burning about four times faster on average than they were just
two decades ago. So, they're getting more extreme, right? Like just in the year 2000, a whole fire season across the American West in which a couple
hundred thousand acres burned would've been extreme. Now, there's a couple -- there's multiple fires of that many acreage burning simultaneously. So,
things have increased dramatically.
But the solutions are relatively simple actually. We know what we need to do, and it's that we need to phase out a fossil fuels, on scientific
timetables, full stop, because there's no forest management solution that will work unless we do that. And then, the other one is we need to be
managing our forests.
Now, what does that actually mean? That means recognizing where the funding comes from for that. And in California, that's mostly -- most of our land
that's burning is federal land. Half of California is federal land. So, there's really no forest management solution that doesn't come from federal
funding.
Now -- so, the difficult part of this that while both of these are controlled by the federal government, the Trump administration of kneecap
our climate progress, and they've also gutted our forest management initiatives. The people I know who are implementing forest management
initiatives in the forests around where I live in Santa Barbara, they're the ones who got fired by the so-called efficiency initiatives.
And you know, these wildfires are not efficient. So, I think there's a huge disconnect between the rhetoric and the reality and a massive gap, an even
larger gap of forming between what we know we need to do and what we're actually doing.
GOLODRYGA: This book has received a lot of praise, not only as a call to action, but a history of wildfires that can help readers better understand
how we got here. I mean, we spent a lot of time and a lot of interviews on the show focused on climate change. But as it relates to fires, you go back
in history showing how indigenous people used to control fires to grow their food for their way of life. Can you explain how that differed from
the colonial techniques, which you go on to later criticize?
THOMAS: Yes, I think it's really important to root our understanding of current problems and an understanding of the history that shaped these
problems, right? So, framing these wildfires as natural disasters, what that often does is it erases the histories that have created the context of
these disasters are occurring in, which shapes the people who are impacted by them, right?
So, California is one of the most fire adapted and fire evolved regions on earth. The majority of California's ecosystems need certain kinds of fire
to thrive. And for around 10,000 years California's indigenous people recognize that. And they were the ones lighting most of the fires across
California in very diverse ways.
So, we think of fire as a single thing, right? But we wouldn't think of precipitation as a single thing. There's a lot of different kinds. So,
talking about whether precipitation is good or bad is kind of meaningless. And same with fire, right? So, indigenous people, for many, many years,
what they figured out how to do was provide the right kinds of fire for the right kinds of ecosystems.
And because they relied on these ecosystems and the use of fire to manage them, this -- the suppression of fire was one of the major tools that
colonial governments, this first Spanish government and then the American government used to dominate indigenous people. So, the history of these
disasters is really rooted in the oppression of people.
And I think that that's really important to keep in mind as we start talking about how we can implement solutions, right? Because how we frame
the problem is very closely tied to the solutions. And this a major topic in California with people who are trying to bring good fire back to the
land, which is really what we should be talking about when we're talking about forest management, is how can we give the land to the fire that needs
again? And who should be involved in that? Who should have a voice in this process? So, that's the approach that I take to history in my book.
GOLODRYGA: The L.A. fires that we've saw, the devastation that ensued were an example of how climate change is affecting what's now called mega fires.
And you spend time in your book writing about mega fires and you say mega fires emerge from a series of fractured relationships between fire, the
land, our institutions, and each other. In the final moments that we have together, can you explain what that means?
THOMAS: Well, I think the L.A. fire is really, you know, beyond even how they started, I think that was -- which -- what was as important to me and
is interesting to me is what they reveal and what they often -- what these disasters reveal often is the fault lines in society, which have existed
before that, but which are just really broaden into stark relief in these disasters.
[13:30:00]
So, this a great example of climate change, right? It was at the end of one of the hottest years on record during a time, which the vegetation should
not have been flammable. And you've got the perfect confluence of factors that created the perfect storm of fire, right?
But who is exposed to that? Who's most vulnerable to that? The people without insurance. Undocumented people who are in some of -- who are living
in and around some of the most expensive homes that burned who didn't have access to federal money, incarcerated firefighters who often don't have
access to healthcare and suffer from chronic diseases due to the work afterwards. And also, wildland firefighters who work for the federal
government, who also don't often have access to long-term healthcare through this.
So, I think that -- so beyond that, just stepping back again, I think one thing that these reveals is just the way that climate change is really just
like crossing the lines that we think of -- that we have taken for granted, right? This fire -- these fires start on federal land out in the forests,
they now burn into our cities. And they really bring into stark relief the inequities in our society because, you know, these disasters really,
they're shaped by our histories and they don't impact everybody equally, right.
So, I think that that's an important part that I try to keep in mind. And that's, when I talk about the fractured relationships that both give rise
to and are exposed by these disasters, that's what I'm speaking about.
GOLODRYGA: Jordan Thomas, the book is called "When It All Burns." Thank you so much.
THOMAS: Thank you so much for having me on.
GOLODRYGA: Appreciate it. We'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Since launching to fame through popular American sitcoms, "Cheers" and "Frasier," Award-winning actor, Kelsey Grammer has built a
celebrated career across TV, film, and Broadway. But behind the scenes, the star has suffered some great personal losses, including the rape and murder
of his beloved younger sister, Karen.
Grammer speaks to Michel Martin about his memoir, laying bare his journey toward healing his pain and trauma. And just a note, this conversation
contains some graphic details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Bianna. Kelsey Grammer, thank you so much for talking with us.
KELSEY GRAMMER, EMMY-WINNING ACTOR AND AUTHOR, "KAREN: A BROTHER REMEMBERS" AND EMMY-WINNING ACTOR: Pleasure to be here.
MARTIN: You know, it's wonderful to meet you as yourself. So many people probably think they know you. You were on the air for so long as Dr.
Frasier Crane, you know, one of the longest running characters, if not the longest running character in television history. So, many awards, so many
accolades.
So, I was just wondering what that must have been like for you, for people -- so many people to think they know you, but they couldn't possibly know
you because they couldn't possibly have known what you were carrying with you.
GRAMMER: Well, Michel, that's a good question. Thank you. I think, you know, I understand and there's a great value in it and a great reward in it
that people find are so familiar with you on a -- you know, at least on a presentational level, they think they recognize you because, of course,
what they're seeing on television is some semblance of you, some reality, you're not very good at this stuff unless you've connected to a kind of a
truthful characterization that people can recognize.
[13:35:00]
So, that, they recognize and that then breeds familiarity that's not contempt, but it's actually just sort of gracious and generous toward you,
you know? And -- but they don't know the specifics. They just have a good feeling. So, they feel like you're you've been in their living room for so
long, you're a friend.
MARTIN: Oh, that's good. I see your point. So, it's a gift. It's more of a gift than a burden?
GRAMMER: Absolutely. Yes.
MARTIN: It is. OK.
GRAMMER: Yes.
MARTIN: This book is -- it's called "Karen." It's about your sister, and it's about the way she died, but it's also about who she was and who she
was to you. So, could we just start there? Like who was she to you?
GRAMMER: She was the most important part of my life. She was my greatest love. I mean, until, you know, of course I got older and, you know,
rededicated my affections to another human being outside of that relationship, my relationship with my sister, it was an extraordinary
closeness we had. We had such a magnificent sort of childhood adolescence together, young adulthood together that was remarkable.
MARTIN: I guess what I took from the book was that you were able to kind of let her know how important she was to you, but she was taken from you in
an awful, awful way. And I mean, it's just -- your description of it is horrific. You went back and actually read the police report and you even
went back to the place where she was abducted from before she was kidnapped and raped and murdered.
And I just -- and you lived with this for a long time. And I was wondering what made this the right time to write this book and to explore all the
complexity of that. Why now?
GRAMMER: Yes. There's a quotation in the book, in several places I refer to the Hamlet line about the readiness is all. I wasn't ready. For whatever
reason, it just -- it didn't present itself to me as something I should or could do. And then, the simple request to tell Karen's story turned into a
book.
I just jotted down some notes three years ago, maybe a little more than three years now, and realized about eight pages in that I was going to be
writing a book and that it needed to be responsible and honest and to uncover everything I could possibly think of. That's why the police report
became important. That's also why it became important to go back and trace her steps because I wasn't there when it happened.
And the brother in me had to go because I couldn't before. And -- but that's who I am. I needed to see her, I needed to see where she died. I
needed to hold her in my creative imagination and to see her off in some way. And the book was -- the book succeeded in doing that as well.
MARTIN: I can see that you lived with that guilt for a long time and not being able to protect her.
GRAMMER: Yes.
MARTIN: And I am sure that some listening to this conversation, be they men or women, but I can particularly understand as a brother why you would
feel that way.
GRAMMER: Older brother, older sister. You look at your siblings as your responsibility. You know, you just do. If you're a human, you know, it's
like that sort of just comes along for the ride. So, yes.
MARTIN: How do you think living with this loss influenced your trajectory as an artist?
GRAMMER: Interesting. Yes. It probably encouraged me to take risks to not suffer fools a lot. You know, a very kind man. I mean -- but eventually,
I'll roll my eyes and say, I got to get out of here. You know, I'm enough with this.
But most of the time I'm a very patient man, but with a focus on getting the job done. I like to get in the middle of things. I like to get into the
fray. I like to fight it out. That probably is what I was given by virtue of losing Karen in a lot of ways, it was a -- I'm not going to waste this
life.
MARTIN: I just want to say here that I'm really sorry for your loss.
GRAMMER: Thank you.
MARTIN: It's just such a profound thing. And any -- having just experienced that in one loss, but you had many. I mean, your father was
murdered. And then later, you know, you lost other siblings in a diving accident. One of the things that I've noticed about loss is that it brings
you into a connection with other people who've had loss, but you can also see where a person might not want to feel those things anymore.
GRAMMER: Yes.
[13:40:00]
MARTIN: You know, you might think, you know what would be great? I could be an accountant and do people's taxes.
GRAMMER: Feeling for me is just one of those important things to do. It's just -- it was kind of who I was before Karen died. So, you know, I
discovered this, but that was because of the loss of my grandfather. That was when Gordon died. The whole world ended as far as I was concerned, and
then I had to rebuild one. And that was -- and we kind of had to do that together.
And so, I found that emotional outlet and realized that was probably the path to my success and my freedom in a lot of ways, was to live in emotion.
So, could I have done without this one? Yes. Because I also believe that, you know, if you're a good actor, you dive into the creative sort of
imagination of a situation, and that response is probably just as honest as if you really lived it, because you've got a great imagination.
And just as it has equal authority to someone who's actually been through that. So, you can loan your imagination to a character and be just as
authentic as if you'd actually lived it.
MARTIN: I'm just wondering what it meant to you as a -- because family is obviously so important to you to play the same character for so many years
over two different shows.
GRAMMER: Yes.
MARTIN: And I'm wondering in a way, did that become kind of part of a family?
GRAMMER: It did. It did. That's a great question. I mean, I didn't -- you know, I didn't exactly know my dad. So, having an 11-year relationship with
John Mahoney as my father was my relationship with my father. I mean, I didn't really have a relationship with my brothers. They were half-
brothers. My relationship with David High Pierce was my brother relationship. And that was a wonderful thing to get vicariously through the
experience of the work.
That was a very good thing for me, and we dive into these experiences and basically live them. You know, by loaning ourselves to them.
MARTIN: But you were also in a lot of pain while you were having that other experience. I mean, you're very honest about it in the book, and I
think you have been also elsewhere. You were dealing with some serious addiction during a period of that time. And just hearing you -- reading you
sort of describe like how you were able to kind of function even at the depths of that is like I found myself wondering, like, how are you still
here?
GRAMMER: Well, it's interesting. It's a question that comes up with a lot of people. And it probably goes back to the thing we were talking about
before, just -- you just don't get to quit. I mean, because -- I mean, I feel like it would be kind of an insult to my sister, the life that was
taken from her to not live this life fully. That's all, you know.
MARTIN: What do you think finally helped you to close that chapter?
GRAMMER: Yes. Some of it was just a surrender to the idea that, well, you know what, stay in this and walk this path and see what happens. I wasn't
actually determining that I was going to expect a certain result, but that it was worth the journey and staying on it was more important than stepping
off.
And then, I had the -- I don't know what happened. I mean, it might've been my heart attack, honestly, where I just suddenly thought -- because I
wasn't practicing anything then. I wasn't abusing anything at the time. I may have been working out too hard that day. But that was the one that
said, what do you want to, do? You want to stay in this and feel this way, or do you want to get out and feel something else? And so, I got out and
felt something else and I found love and a new family and it would never make me -- I would never want to hurt my children from previous
relationships by saying, you know, I found something that I didn't have there, but it just became different, you know, and it became worth living
for.
MARTIN: Oh, that's lovely. I do want to ask you if you -- it's my understanding from the book that one of the people who killed Karen is
still alive and is -- has been up for parole a number of times. Can you foresee that, this person --
GRAMMER: I do. I often put myself in that, if he gets released. I mean, you know, the characterization of what -- there's a basic human impulse
these days where -- I don't know, maybe it's political, maybe it's not, maybe it's just -- it's -- but there is a thing like the accused, the
criminal is favored. OK. That could happen. That could happen.
[13:45:00]
It'll -- it's a devastating thing to think about, but I have to be able to come to terms with it if it's something that does happen, because I know
that, you know, our society's gotten to a place where it might be that they actually feel sorry for him and, OK. I mean, I kind of get it.
MARTIN: But do you feel that the person who killed your sister has remorse?
GRAMMER: He has said so, and that would make a big difference. But then he also, at the same time, in the last parole hearing, he actually said he
didn't think he raped her. He didn't remember raping her. He didn't think he had done that.
MARTIN: Oh my.
GRAMMER: And so, it was blindingly suddenly useful to me that I had read the police report at that time. And one of the witnesses said he -- his
words -- the last words Karen ever heard were, tilt your head back. And I thought, you know what? I got ammunition. That's ammunition. And I'd never
heard that phrase before. It was part of one of the killer statements who turned state's evidence. But it was such a shock to me to hear it myself
and then to realize that I used it myself to keep him in jail. So, it was a power in a lot of ways.
MARTIN: In the book, you write to Freddie Glenn, who is one of the people who killed your sister, and you say, we share a prison, Freddie. A prison
you made. Our prison. It need not be Karen's. She is free. You and I may share it forever, but now? Telling her story releases me.
That is a very beautiful passage, but do you feel released?
GRAMMER: Yes. Yes, it did. It made me realize that I no longer have to occupy the prison that I had built as a result of the one he had built. And
in my imagination his -- is one he can remain in, and mine, I don't have to anymore. The walls are -- the walls have been knocked down. They've opened
up. It's all in that place of freedom you find when the charge is taken off of something, but the grief will never actually disappear.
But the horror of what happened to Karen is now eclipsed by how wonderful she was, and that's a lot of freedom.
MARTIN: Kelsey Grammer, thank you so much for talking with us.
GRAMMER: Thanks, Michel. Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: A beautiful message about the power of art to set us free.
And finally, for us, the red carpet has been rolled out. The top tier of the cinematic world are touching down in the French Riviera. Cannes Film
Festival has begun. Among the films premiering this year, "A Pale View of Hills," an adaptation, the first novel of Nobel Laureate Kazuo Ishiguro,
that follows a Japanese family who moved from post-war Nagasaki to suburban England.
Back in 2021 after the publication of his most recent novel, "Klara and the Sun," Ishiguro, spoke to Christian about the powerful influence of family
on art.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: So, let me talk about your human family, because this book -- and again I will read -- is "in
memory of my mother," Shizuko Ishiguro, who she died in 2019. She was 92 years old. I think. And she was the first person that you called when you
were told that you won the Nobel Prize. And she was very important in your life, in terms of leading you to books and literature. Talk to me about
that, because your early years, I think, were in Japan, right?
KAZUO ISHIGURO, AUTHOR, "KLARA AND THE SUN": Yes, I came from Japan to Britain at the age of five, no intention on the part of the family to
settle permanently. We were always preparing to go back. So, I remained quite Japanese within the home, but became rapidly British outside of it.
And like a lot of boys in my -- when I was in my -- when I was a teenager, I didn't do very much reading. I was very keen on listening to music and
playing music. And -- but my mother was a natural storyteller. She wasn't a literary person, but she was a very natural storyteller. And when -- she
would very spontaneously go into telling stories, either about her own experiences in Japan or her growing up. Or, indeed, she would act out
scenes from books or Shakespeare plays. And she introduced me -- she was the person who introduced me to Dostoyevsky for the first time when I was
about 16 or 17. I didn't really want to read a gloomy looking book about Russians.
[13:50:00]
ISHIGURO: But she persuaded me that it was actually about the student who was going out of his mind. And I thought that sounded much sexier and much
more interesting. And Dostoyevsky has remained probably the -- my favorite author.
And she's introduced me to many people. So, I'd say she's very important. But she probably inhabits "Klara and the Sun" in another kind of way. I
think there is something about many mothers, many parents of both sexes that reminds me of kind of like a programmed her robot when it comes to
child care.
You know, we have a very, very strong desire to fulfill this goal, to do the best for our child, protect our child come what may. And my mother was
very much like this. And like many people of her generation, she gave up her profession to start a family. And everything she did, I had the
impression, she had that least at least the back of her mind -- the back of her mind, will this bring her closer to the goal of doing something good
for her children?
AMANPOUR: Right.
ISHIGURO: And so, Klara is a bit like that. She literally has it programmed into her.
AMANPOUR: I also want to pick up on something that you have said about both Naomi, your daughter, and Lorna, your wife, about what fierce and
constructive critics of your work they are. And I was fascinated to read how important they are to you, especially in the wake of winning the Nobel
and winning the Booker and having so many awards, and so many people, I mean, revere your work. And why is it important for them to have such a
good critical eye on what you produce?
ISHIGURO: Well, the obvious thing is that, the more my reputation rises, the less people are willing to give me frank comments about my writing. So,
it becomes more and more important that I have Lorna and now Naomi as fairly savage critics.
When I say savage, they're not savage for the sake of it, but you have to understand about my wife, I mean, she was my girlfriend back in 1979 when I
first started to write. I mean, when we first met, I was not a writer, yes.
And so, she saw the first attempts. In her in her eyes, I'm still that person, I think, this person who -- I'm not a famous writer. I'm just this
person who reckons he can write. And so, she hasn't changed in the way that she looks at anything I produce.
AMANPOUR: And didn't she famously throw out copious numbers of pages of one of your first drafts, basically saying, no, no, no, this just doesn't
cut it yet?
ISHIGURO: Yes, she did that with the last one. And actually, with "Klara and the Sun" as well. I mean, I did months of extra work after I thought I
had finished it after she told me I had to work on this, this and this. And then, of course, my writer daughter got hold of it and gave me a huge pile
of notes.
So, I thought I'd finished this novel in April 2019. I didn't hand it in until December 2019, because of these very tough people in my family that I
have to get past. But I think that's OK. I mean, I think many, many people in all kinds of areas of artistic endeavor, I think, often have people like
this who are part of the team. As a kind of a front thing, I just have my name, but, I mean, Kazuo Ishiguro is the name of this kind of little team.
AMANPOUR: So, let me ask you, because there's the imaginary world, the historical world. Then there's the emotional world and the existential
world. And the committee said about you, he in novels of great emotional force has uncovered the abyss beneath our illusionary sense of connection
with the world.
Do you struggle with connection with the world, your place in the world? I mean, I have heard a lot of artists say that the concept of aloneness, the
concept of death, the existential struggle is what fuels them and fuels their art.
ISHIGURO: Yes. I mean, I really love that citation. I like particularly the stuff about emotional force, because that is so important to me. When
I'm writing a novel, I want it to have an emotional connection with people. That's one of my great priorities. And it's also a priority of mine that it
stays on the mind for a long time afterwards.
The second part of that citation, I have been trying to unpack ever since they came out with it. I'm not entirely sure what it means, but I like it.
I'm trying to aspire to it.
[13:55:00]
Maybe it's something like what you say, I mean, that we have a kind of illusion of being connected to each other and to society to a greater
extent than we really are. That's possible. And I think I do touch on that in "Klara," and I supposed in other books, that there is something
fundamentally lonely about human beings, not just the everyday loneliness of not having your friends around you, stuff like that. But even when
you're surrounded day by day by family and loved ones, there is something about our very nature that makes us actually lonely, and something to do
with the actual -- the very complexity of our individual beings.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Such an enjoyable conversation. Well, that is it for now. Thank you so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
