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Amanpour
Interview with Former Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi; Interview with Standing Together Co-Director Alon-Lee Green; Interview with Standing Together Co-Director Rula Daood; Interview with The New York Times Foreign Affairs Opinion Columnist Thomas L. Friedman. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired May 14, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I say, good luck, Syria, show us something very special.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Syria's time to shine. The United States lifts sanctions and Trump meets its new leader. Could it be a new dawn for that war-torn
country?
Then, next up, Qatar, on the president's tour of the Persian Gulf region. What he's hoping from three of the world's richest countries and the head
of potential crucial talks for Ukraine. Former Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi joins me for a wide-ranging conversation.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Famine has become a fact, not just a fear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- Gaza truly on the brink, facing famine and further Israeli bombs. What hope is there for an end to this war? I'll speak to the people
behind Standing Together, a Jewish and Arab movement for peace.
And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN, FOREIGN AFFAIRS OPINION COLUMNIST, THE NEW YORK TIMES: This the first Israeli government that has not made its priority peace with
the surrounding Arab States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- one of the most influential voices on U.S. policy in the Middle East. Tom Friedman believes Netanyahu's Israel is no longer a true
ally of the United States, and he explains to Michel Martin.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
It was a lavish welcome for the U.S. president in Qatar today, the second stop on his tour of Gulf nations, which happened to be three of the richest
countries in the world and making deals appears to be the main order of business.
But during his stop in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Trump also met the new Syrian president Ahmed Al-Sharaa, and says he's lifting all U.S. sanctions on
Damascus that were imposed during Syria's brutal civil war.
Jeff Zeleny is following the president on this Middle East tour and he's joining us now from Doha. Jeff, welcome to the program. So, what was the
biggest thing, do you think? Is it the diplomatic outreach to Syria or is it the business deals?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF U.S. NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Christiane, there's no doubt that this trip was designed to be a deal
making trip much more than a diplomatic mission. But along the way, a little bit of both happened, and I do believe that, you know, aside from
these billion-dollar deals of buying new planes from Boeing, et cetera, it will be the change in U.S. policy towards Syria. That certainly, so far, is
the most significant development on this trip. There's no doubt about it. I mean, you could not take your eyes away from the images earlier today. It's
been 25 years since the United States president has met with a Syrian leader like this.
So, it was on the fly. It was a 30-minute meeting with translation that it's probably much less. But the fact that there was this meeting a day
after sanctions were lifted is truly extraordinary and something that the White House actually kept a lid on. They did not telegraph this in advance
at all. Of course, we do not know what will happen after this. We don't know the next steps here. But even given president's -- the Syrian
president's past. The U.S.'s, at least for now, looking over that Donald Trump praising him as a fighter, very attractive, a man -- as he described
it, as a man with a strong past.
AMANPOUR: Indeed, a strong past, as we all know, a former jihadist who's now rejected that. The jury is still out on whether he can actually
reconcile all Syria's, you know, very, very divisive constitutional parts. But new Syria. How about new relationship with Saudi Arabia? It looks like,
you know, President Trump's, you know, he made that his first stop during his first trip, but after that, there was all the Khashoggi business. But
Saudi has most definitely come back into the fold.
ZELENY: It certainly has. And really, President Trump is largely responsible for lifting the Saudi crown prince back into the fold.
[13:05:00]
Of course, during the last administration, the Biden administration, the president kept him at an arm's length, describing the kingdom as a pariah
all over the murder of The Washington Post columnist as Jamal Khashoggi, as you said.
But Donald Trump has never been as bothered by that at all. That was clear, watching them literally arm in arm, side by side for nearly 12 hours. And
the president -- the American president talked about a new generation of leaders in the Middle East. And, Christiane, it was just striking as 78-
year-old Donald Trump standing next to 39-year-old crown prince who is the king and waiting, obviously, that was the biggest difference from the trip
eight years ago. I was on that trip when President Trump made that trip. Of course, this -- the crown prince was in the background, the king was in the
foreground.
AMANPOUR: Just very quickly, last few seconds. He's conspicuously not going to Israel, and yet, there is some diplomacy we understand from U.S.
diplomats, envoys from -- doing it by phone from Qatar. Is there an issue between Trump and this government and what could they achieve by phone
calls between Hamas and the Israeli government?
ZELENY: Christiane, it's hard to imagine they could achieve anything really significant at all by phone call. I do not believe there is a
lasting issue between the Trump administration and Prime Minister Netanyahu. He's been to the White House twice in recent months, but there's
no doubt it is a snub. This a deal making trip, but it's also a bit of a trip to the American president to poke his eyes in prime minister -- or
poke his fingers in Prime Minister Netanyahu's eyes a bit on this.
They want the conflict in Gaza resolved. The U.S. is not thrilled by any measure of how Netanyahu has been handling this. So, they didn't go there
because there's no deliverable that they could get, at least in the short- term.
AMANPOUR: Yes. And of course, though, U.S. is the only one with the incredible influence to make it happen. Jeff Zeleny, thank you very much
indeed.
Meanwhile, higher stakes diplomacy happening in Turkey this week. President Zelenskyy will be there on Thursday waiting, he says, for President Putin,
but will he show up? A Russian delegation is apparently going and NATO foreign meters meet ministers are also meeting in Turkey now.
So, where does the European Union stand in all of this? Relations with the Trump administration are certainly testy right now thanks to tariffs and
putting Europe on notice that America will no longer foot the bill for European security.
But Trump and Italy's prime minister, Giorgia Meloni, have shown a political and personal affinity. Could she be the transatlantic bridge
builder? I put that and a lot of E.U. anxiety to the former Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi when he joined me here in the studio.
Prime Minister Renzi, welcome to the program.
MATTEO RENZI, FORMER ITALIAN PRIME MINISTER: Thank you so much to having me.
AMANPOUR: Yes. Well, it's really important and really interesting because Italy is playing a very interesting role. The current prime minister,
thinking that she can be a bridge builder between President Trump and the rest of Europe. How is that going, do you think?
RENZI: I think with Trump it's not easy to predict and to be a bridge, but I think Giorgia Meloni have a very good stability in the government that is
good for Italy and not usual. But at the same time, I think the real bridge will be Germany, not Italy, with the new chancellor, Friedrich Merz.
AMANPOUR: Really? Because Trump likes her. He calls her a game changer or something. He calls her a lot of compliments.
RENZI: You know, Trump is very, very not diplomatic as in the past for everyone. She's fantastic. She is good. She is great. Did job, great job. I
hope, of course, everyone could help to create a solid bridge between Europe and USA are most welcome. But I think the real leadership in Europe
will be, again, France and Germany. Macron and Merz.
AMANPOUR: Interesting. Of course, Merz is center right?
RENZI: Yes. Is not ideological Trump. But Trump did agreement with North Korea, with Hamas, with the is -- with Houthi, is out of the box. When I
was prime minister 10 years ago, probably nobody could imagine White House able to speak with everyone. Trump, is that.
AMANPOUR: So, that's -- I mean, that's a good thing.
RENZI: Oh, it depends.
AMANPOUR: I mean, today he's met, for the first time -- the first time, I think in 20 years that an American president has met with the new
president, they call him the interim, whatever he is, Ahmed al-Sharaa of Syria, and agreed to lift the sanctions, saying, good luck, Syria, you
know, make yourself great. First time in 20 years.
[13:10:00]
RENZI: I don't think that is very acceptable and normal for a former politician as myself because I used the to imagine diplomacy very different
way. But this is Trump. You can love, you can hate. I prefer Trump when he sign agreement and the cooperation to the Trump when he sign executive
order for tariffs, because there is not a most stupid thing than the trade war that Trump launched.
Now, probably, he changed the idea. Probably the guys inside him in the White House explained to him, Mr. President, don't exaggerate. Because one
month ago, America risked a lot, but I think we are in new world multipolar --
AMANPOUR: So, let's ask them, because there seems to be a lot of anxiety, especially between Europe and the United States, erstwhile close allies for
the last 80 years. You, Europeans are saying, oh look, he did a deal with China. Oh, look, he did a deal with Britain, which is, you know, Brexit
Britain. But we still have nothing and no deal. Are you concerned that this becoming an unbreakable bridge or it's irrevocable? You can't really get
across this divide at the moment?
RENZI: I'm worried of all, of course. But I think the good solution is in our hands. Because it's impossible. Don't imagine USA and Europe together.
I believe in that alliance and we remain.
AMANPOUR: So, you're saying it's impossible not to imagine them together?
RENZI: Yes, because we stay together. We are together. We will continue together. So, what is the problem two? First, Trump have to accept the
idea, Europe is not a problem for United States. Europe is the best ally for United States. And also, if we have some discussions about France,
about trade, we have to fix an agreement.
At the same time, this my opinion, as very proud believer in the United States of Europe dream, I think Europe have to wake up.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, he says the United States of Europe dream was designed to screw, this his word, America. So, Trump believes that however it's
designed Europe, it's not a friend of America's.
RENZI: That is a mistake. That is an absolutely unacceptable idea. But America is bigger than the single president. And so, now there is Trump for
the next four years, we have to work with him. And the same time, Europe have to think about the over-regulation in bureaucracy. Europe have to
think about some ideological approach.
Thinking about green deal was exaggerated the approach of green deal, because the idea to save climate change is correct. Destroy European
manufacturing was a mistake, particularly for Germany and Italy.
So, I think we have everyone try to go in the right direction. Trump have to come back to the crazy trade war against Europe. At the same time,
Europe have to wake up and try to imagine to be a lab and not a museum. They have to be a lab.
AMANPOUR: A lab and not a museum. Let me ask you about the lab of paying for your own security and your own defense. Clearly, many people believe
that the time has come. Many also believe that you can't suddenly do it overnight while there is a hot war raging on your continent. What do you
think? Can Europe make up the deficit in weapons and assistance that America is, you know, cutting off from Ukraine? And do you think your
country still stays with defending Ukraine?
RENZI: Two things. First, we were in 1992 as Europeans at 2.6 percent of GDP of investment in military issues. Now, we arrived to -- in 2014, 1.1 of
GDP.
AMANPOUR: What happened?
RENZI: It what happened after communism failed -- failure. Everyone think, OK, this the end of history. You remember for --
AMANPOUR: Yes, I do.
RENZI: That is interesting thing. But in 2014, we sign, I was there in ways (ph), in summit, the -- led by David Cameron and Barack Obama. We sign
a commitment. We will come back to 2 percent. So, we have to come back to this part of business.
The problem is what type of investment we want to do. America invest in defense and create a dual use internet healthcare investment linked to
defense, use --
AMANPOUR: Links to defense, yes.
RENZI: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Everything had dual use.
RENZI: Europe invested too much in bureaucracy, also in defense and military issues. So, we have to change the type of investment. And the
second point we have to continue to work with Ukraine. That is mistake of the Italian prime minister. Because --
[13:15:00]
AMANPOUR: Well, which is the mistake? Because she's been defending Ukraine.
RENZI: Yes.
AMANPOUR: What's the mistake?
RENZI: Yes, but the mistake was when she decide to don't stay with Merz, with Macron, and with Donald Tusk and Keir Starer in the train for Kyiv.
Look --
AMANPOUR: She should have been on that train?
RENZI: Yes, because in 2022, the same train was a train with Macron, the former chancellor, Olaf Scholz, and the former prime minister, the good
Mario Draghi.
Now, unfortunately, Poland bring our place, and I'm very proud to be Italian. I think Italy have to be with all the European guys. But I hope
that was a mistake. Of course, that was a mistake of Giorgia Meloni. I think we have to continue to create the condition for a very long and right
piece.
AMANPOUR: You have also said that this moment calls for a special envoy in Europe to deal with the Trump administration. We know that the Chinese have
appointed a special envoy to deal with the trade issue. You've mentioned Mario Draghi. Do you think that's even a possibility? Should it be Meloni?
RENZI: I'm very frank with you. I think we cannot accept the idea today, in Europe, we have a problem. The problem is the lack of politics and too
much bureaucracy in Europe, to match commissioners, to match people who continue to, I'm Europe. Europe is a disaster to understand term
organization.
AMANPOUR: Yes. But what Europeans are saying is that the problem is they've got a lack of trust now, the whole sort of family with the U.S. has
been broken.
RENZI: That is good.
AMANPOUR: Or breaking.
RENZI: That is true. That is true. But if we have an internal organization without a clear responsibility, that is a problem. So, my idea, to create a
special envoy to dialogue with Trump, and the name of Mario Draghi is the best name in Europe.
AMANPOUR: He was the former prime minister, former central banker, former European --
RENZI: Former banker. Former European.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
RENZI: He worked for everyone.
AMANPOUR: He knows everything about trade.
RENZI: He has -- he wrote a very good report about the problem and the opportunities of Europe.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
RENZI: At the same time, I propose three years ago to create a special envoy for the war, for the dialogue between Russia and Ukraine, and I
propose the name of Tony Blair. We have to bring the best guys --
AMANPOUR: Or women.
RENZI: We -- of course. Sorry. Absolutely correct. And I was the only one prime minister in the history of Italy with 50 percent of women in my
cabinet. So, only one, 69 government, and only my government with the alpha of 50/50. But independently from that, I believe we have to create a Europe
more efficient. So, special envoys goes in this direction.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, in February, all this nice stuff you say about we have to stay together, and this may be temporary. J. D. Vance, I was there at
the Munich Security Conference. The vice president of the United States smacked Europe around and essentially put his faith and America's weight
behind the far-right in Germany, the AfD. And the far-right in many parts of Europe are gaining a lot of ground and they're winning, you know, very
important elections and positions of power.
What do you make of the vice president of the United States who comes to Europe and says to people like you, you're the problem?
RENZI: I think this absolutely crazy and unacceptable. But after this statement of J. D. Vance and all statement of President Trump left comeback
to win thanks to the great support of far-right from White House, nobody believed possible. In February in Canada left win.
AMANPOUR: Liberal Party.
RENZI: And -- Liberal Party with Mark Carney is not the traditional left. Is very -- I love Mark Carney because he is the model I have for my
country. But in Canada, nobody expect the victory of Mark Carney. Mark Carney won.
Also, thanks to the politics from Trump-Vance, the same in Australia because Anthony Albanese won election and the polls in February was
terrible. So, if J. D. Vance will speak in the future against Europe again, I think is good news for European.
AMANPOUR: But you also said he shouldn't be coming to Italy again without first apologizing for calling you all parasites.
RENZI: I think it's --
AMANPOUR: And pathetic freeloaders.
RENZI: When -- Europe is a problem, but when he decide the spend time for his holiday is stayed with us in Roma. So, Roma probably --
AMANPOUR: And the last official visitor to the Pope Francis. I want to ask you a final question. You were maybe the only world leader, former leader,
who called on President Biden to leave the race last summer.
RENZI: Yes.
AMANPOUR: To leave the race. Why did you do that?
[13:20:00]
RENZI: I love Joe. I love when he was a vice president, I work with him and I work with President Obama very strongly. We had a very great
cooperation and I love his humanity and his friendship. At the same time, I think two years ago was clear, Democrats needed a different candidate, and
probably if Democrats decided to organize primaries in the right time, probably today, that was not Trump.
AMANPOUR: Prime Minister Renzi, thank you.
RENZI: Thank you so much.
AMANPOUR: Thank you. Interesting perspective from Italy's former centrist prime minister. And later in the program, standing together for peace,
Trump may be dodging Israel on this trip, but I speak with the directors of a Jewish and Arab movement rallying against the war in Gaza.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: In Gaza, dozens again have been killed in airstrikes by Israel. The Associated Press reports that over 20 children were killed in just
these latest strikes on houses in the Jabaliya area. There is truly no respite for the civilians of Gaza. There's no escape and there is no aid
coming in. A U.N.-backed report now says the whole of Gaza is at, quote, "high risk of famine."
Now, the Israeli government has publicly dismissed those warnings. This what the deputy foreign minister told me on this program last week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Are you denying that people have died of starvation in Gaza? Are you denying that there was a famine, that famine is imminent now? Because
this categorized and reported by international doctors, international humanitarians. Are you denying that seriously?
SHARREN HASKEL, ISRAELI DEPUTY FOREIGN MINISTER: These are complete lies. And I'll tell you what, we heard it a year ago. You heard about the
starvation and you saw that it was a lie. And this the situation --
AMANPOUR: No, but we didn't. That's why I'm asking you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The New York Times now reports that some IDF officials themselves are admitting that starvation is imminent in Gaza right now. On
Friday, thousands of Israelis gathered in Jerusalem to rally against this brutal and ongoing war. It was part of the People's Peace Summit organized
by Standing Together, which is a Jewish and Arab movement for peace. It's co-directors Alon-Lee Green and Rula Daood are joining me here in our
studio.
Welcome to the program. It's such an important moment to have you both. And I wonder whether you think even with President Trump's visit, even though
he's not going to Israel, that there is a moment, a turning point, all the chatter seems to be really now against this ongoing war. What do you think
as an Israeli?
ALON-LEE GREEN, CO-DIRECTOR, STANDING TOGETHER: I think we're in a very dangerous moment. We all heard the plans of our government to deepen the
control in Gaza, to go into a new military operation, to permanently occupy Gaza, to forcefully remove all the residents of Gaza, to the south, to
camps in Rafah. And this dangerous because it'll continue the starvation, it'll continue the killing of children every day, and it'll not bring back
the hostages, and for sure will not bring us safety.
On the same time. There is a real chance for a deal, the real -- there is a real chance to come back to the deal. That was the only thing that released
the hostages and brought them back to their families and was the only thing that stopped the daily killing of children and families in Gaza. This
should be the way.
[13:25:00]
And the visit of Trump in the region, it kind of gives us the belief that it is possible. But you know, who stops it? The Israeli government.
AMANPOUR: And in fact, we here, The Times of Israel has reported that even Trump's own envoy has told hostage families that they seem to be needlessly
extending this war. But let me ask you about the protest. I said Israeli, you're both Israelis. You are Jewish-Israeli. You are Arab-Israeli --
Palestinian-Israeli.
RULA DAOOD, CO-DIRECTOR, STANDING TOGETHER: Palestinian-Israeli.
AMANPOUR: Tell me about the protests and the movement towards for peace that you represent.
DAOOD: Yes, of course. So, Standing Together is a Jewish, Palestinian grassroots movement that works inside of Israel, inside of the Israeli
society. We -- since the October 7th, what we are focusing on is a demand at the beginning of having a hostage deal, a ceasefire. This demand became
more popular with each and every half a year after this war. And what we see happening right now within the Israeli society, especially after the
deal was broken by our government, is some kind of arose within our people.
Huge demand to go back to a ceasefire. Not just a ceasefire, but also to stop the war, because we know and we believe that right now, this war isn't
serving anybody. It's for sure not serving people in Palestine, but also people who live inside of Israel. And the only reason this war is
continuing right now is it because it is for the political interest and survival of Ben-Gvir, Smotrich, and Netanyahu.
This government knows that if they will stop the war on Gaza, the government will be dismantled. There is no majority within the Israeli
society for this government anymore.
AMANPOUR: That that's interesting. And, you know, I don't know all the polls all the time. But you have gathered and called for a protest this
past Friday. How did it go? Were you pleased with the response, Arabs, Jews coming together to say what? And did they come?
GREEN: Yes. As part of a wide coalition of actually dozens of peace and anti-war and human rights organizations, the name of this coalition. It's
time. We gathered thousands of people in actually the venue that the right- wing users in Israel to call to occupy Gaza, to call -- to build settlements in Gaza. We decided to go, especially, to this venue and to
speak about peace.
AMANPOUR: And what is that venue? What's so special about it?
GREEN: It's the venue that the right-wing holds their conventions in it, and it's in Jerusalem. A place that is, you know -- should be the capital
of both Palestine and Israel. And we decided to speak not only for peace, not only to normalize the demand for peace, because it's a rare word in our
society. It's a rare word even by the left-wing politicians in Israel, they don't use this word anymore.
We decided to normalize the demand for peace, but also to speak against the war and to call to refuse the war. It was a very popular call there to
refuse the war. That is the war of Netanyahu and Smotrich and Ben-Gvir, and not ours.
AMANPOUR: What does it mean to refuse the war? Because as an Israeli, I don't think you can actually say, don't go and don't follow the call up
orders or can you?
DAOOD: To refuse this war, it means to do not go within the slogans of this war will only bring -- the only way to dismantle Hamas, the only way
to conquer Hamas and to take the power from Hamas is by keeping bombing Gaza and killing innocent people. To refuse this word is to say --
AMANPOUR: To refuse the narrative?
DAOOD: Yes. To refure the narrative.
AMANPOUR: I see. The justification.
DAOOD: Yes. We understand that military operations will not bring any change to Israel and Palestine.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, as you know, the latest bombardments, which have, again, really, you know, cause a lot of international distress and commentary, and
not to mention Gaza itself, has been apparently to target Mohammed Sinwar, the brother of Yahya Sinwar. So, these leaders, they say they're still
trying to get, we don't know whether they have or they haven't.
But I want to ask you about was it difficult for you after October 7th and the savagery of what happened on October 7th to find -- to be able to reach
out to your Arab brethren and find that common ground? And was it difficult for you and other Arab-Israelis to meet with your Jewish brethren after
these 19 months of horror that's inflicted in Gaza? Because there is a little bit of a competition of victimhood. At least that's how it's been
described.
GREEN: Yes. I think, you know, what's the first thing we did after October 7th, after we understood what is going on during this day, after we saw the
videos from Sderot with the armed Hamas fighters, after we saw the kidnaps and the slaughter in the south of Hamas, we understood that this a moment
like never before.
[13:30:00]
We understood it's a life changing event. We went on a zoom, the entire leadership of Standing Together, half Palestinians, half Jews, and we
cried. There was mainly, you know, tough feelings. People are crying, people are speaking. People are saying, now it's going to be something that
we can only be afraid of. And from that we understood that if we feel this feeling together, it must be -- it must mean that everyone is afraid. And
it must also mean that we can imagine together and act together to say that a revenge war will not be the right direction.
AMANPOUR: And, Rula, how did you -- I mean, he's describing something incredibly emotional and incredibly brave to have done that zoom so quickly
after October 7th, and then you've had everything that's happened since. How do you feel about it?
DAOOD: I think that -- I always say that I'm a bit, you know, amazed, surprised, but over -- but all -- I think more full of hope. The fact that
we were able to still be a movement, to be able to go out of the street, to sit down, to think what we need to do, to still understand that we need an
alternative political vision for the people living in Israel and Palestine is America itself.
Within Standing Together, if you would look at our people, the activists that we do, you will see different groups. We have, you know, activists who
have had families and have families in Gaza, but we also have activists who had their, you know, beloved one killed by the Hamas attack. And both of us
were able to sit down, understand that the pain is a mutual pain, but also understand that in order to do not get to a place where it becomes worse
and which is happening right now, been happening for 19 months, we need to stick together.
And we need to bring a voice that speaks about the benefits of the people living in Israel and Palestine. And we've been able to do that.
AMANPOUR: Which is remarkable. We don't get to see it that much. You know, we seek you out. And we want to have these conversations, but somehow the
general media or the general population does not put a focus on you grassroots teams of activists and peace lovers and peace builders.
GREEN: And you know what? It's understood. It's -- sometimes it's amazing for us to understand what you see here in Europe, in the U.S., in the rest
of the world. What do you see in your news? Because it's not what we see in our news. You see Gaza, you see dead children in Gaza. You see the rubbles.
You see the destruction. You see what can only be revenge and can never be self-defense. We see something completely different and it's also just --
AMANPOUR: What do you see?
GREEN: We don't -- it took us a year and a half to start seeing what's going on in Gaza. Right now, as you saw our deputy minister of foreign
affairs denying that there is starvation in Gaza, even though the Army admits there is starvation in Gaza, as we saw in The New York Times piece.
We see the media just betraying its deepest, deepest role of showing the truth, of showing -- you know, reporting on media --
AMANPOUR: Your own media, you're talking about.
GREEN: Our own media.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
GREEN: Yes. We don't see it. And we understand that when you see those things that are done in our name, those things that are done by us, it's
understood that this the main focus of the story. But there is a growing part of the society in Israel that is fighting against the government. And
as any other society in the world, Israelis, Jews, or Palestinian-Israeli, we are not our government. We're not Ben-Gvir, we're not Netanyahu, we are
not the settlements. We don't want to have this government.
Most of Israelis have been in the streets before the war started, you know, demanding this government to go. And now, this government is continuing the
war only to survive.
AMANPOUR: I mean, there must be a group of people who support the government. I don't know how they continue otherwise. But from your
perspective as an Arab-Israeli, do the Palestinians also feel this empathy towards, you know, your, you know, attempts? Do they feel empathy towards
what happened to Israelis on October 7th? In other words, do you have this sort of common feeling that's the only way to get -- you know, get to any
future?
DAOOD: I think what is very much common right now is the need by people, whether you're Jewish or Palestinian, Israeli or Palestinian, to see an end
to what's happening. If you sit in one room with our activists, whether they'll be in the south -- from the south, the north, the center, West
Bank, Jews or Palestinians, and you will ask them simple questions, that, do you want an into this war? They will tell you, yes.
AMANPOUR: Do you still want Hamas to be ruling Gaza, for heaven's sake?
DAOOD: And I think what the polls that we had before the 7th of October showed that the people in Gaza, in majority --
AMANPOUR: The polls, that's true.
DAOOD: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Before.
DAOOD: They did not see Hamas as a leadership. The same way we speak about the people living within the Israeli society, we are not our government. We
are not Smotrich. We are not Ben-Gvir. The same thing goes for people in Gaza. They are not all Hamas. That is a reality.
[13:35:00]
But politicians that we have right now who seek to conquer more land, who want to have more starvation, who want to put people -- to throw them out
of Gaza, 2.2 million --
AMANPOUR: And by the way they say it, the extreme right say it.
DAOOD: Yes. They say it.
AMANPOUR: So, you're not just making it this up.
DAOOD: No. I'm not making that up.
AMANPOUR: But let me ask you about some Palestinians have pushed back on you, you know, they say -- I'm going to get it straight here, accuse you of
sort of normalizing the occupation. The BDS movement, you know, have said that, you know, again, normalizing things. They don't want you to have this
reach out to try to figure out how to come to some solution.
DAOOD: Yes. I think when you sit in the comfort of your home in the U.S. or in Europe, it's much easier --
AMANPOUR: These are Palestinians.
DAOOD: -- to look at us, what's happening in Israel and Palestine, and to think that we are just, you know, one page or blanket (ph). To do not
understand the realities that we live is sometime it can be out of ignorance. But my reality that I am born into, I am a Palestinian citizen
of Israel. I'm part of the 20 percent Palestinians who stayed inside of the border of Israel.
AMANPOUR: And for whom life is not that easy right now.
DAOOD: It is not that easy. We are second-class citizens. In 2018, the Israeli government has put a law, the nation state law that declares that
we are, as non-Jews, second-class citizens. We are persecuted each and every day, especially after the 7th of October if we speak anything about
Gaza.
So, to come and to boycott the only people and the only activists, both Jews and Palestinians who would dare to stand up against this government to
speak a different language, to say that this occupation must end, this war must end a deal, must be put on the table so the hostages can also come
back home, it is just to go against the will of people.
If you are truly revolutionary, you understand that you have people who suffer and you have governments. OK. And this how we do it. We organize and
we mobilize people and we talk within our people in inside of our society.
AMANPOUR: It's an incredible commitment. Where do you think, Alon-Lee, last question, this going to end? Do you believe that your movement and the
others who believe like you do will somehow see a resolution?
GREEN: I think conflicts eventually resolve. We have a lot of examples in the world where we saw people fighting, people speaking to each other and
not having the slightest belief that within a year it can end. But conflicts can end. We have a -- we had a war with Egypt. We have a peace
with Egypt right now. And you know what? You cannot occupy and militarily control millions of people for decades and expect to have security.
If we will end the occupation, we will have Israeli-Palestinian peace, and this what we're fighting for.
AMANPOUR: It's really incredible to hear your voices and very inspiring. Rula, Alon-Lee, thank you, ruler.
GREEN: Thank you so much.
DAOOD: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: And good luck. We'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: As we mentioned earlier, President Trump's trip to the Middle East this week doesn't include a stop in Israel. Can anyone read the tea
leaves? Does this signal a growing divide between the two allies or something else completely?
Veteran New York Times columnist and Middle East reporter Tom Friedman says this alliance is unsurprisingly frayed right now, given this Israeli
government's approach to the war against Hamas. And he joins Michel Martin to discuss his recent op-ed on this topic.
[13:40:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Tom Friedman, thank you so much for joining us once again.
THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN, FOREIGN AFFAIRS OPINION COLUMNIST, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Great to be with you, Michel.
MARTIN: You know, you're a longtime Mideast watcher. I think most people know that. I mean, from your bestselling books, like "From Beirut to
Jerusalem," your columns for The New York Times. You've been watching this region for a very long time, and you've written some very tough pieces, but
I have to say this one of the toughest that I think I've ever seen you write.
And you say that Israel has a government that is no longer behaving as an ally. And you write -- this recent column was written as an open letter to
President Trump. He's gone to Saudi Arabia. He's gone to Qatar. He is going to the UAE. He's bypassing Israel on this trip. And one of the things that
you say is that, the fact that you're traveling there next week, meeting the leaders of Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar, and that
you have no plans to see Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in Israel suggests to me that you are starting to understand a vital truth that this
Israeli government is behaving in ways that threaten hardcore U.S. interest in the region. Netanyahu is not our friend. And that you go on to say, that
I have no doubt that, generally speaking, the Israeli people continue to see themselves as steadfast allies of the American people and vice versa.
But this ultra nationalist, messianic Israeli government is not America's ally.
These are some very strong words. What prompted you to write them?
FRIEDMAN: Well, Michel, first of all, this a theme really I've been on since this government came to power because this the first Israeli
government that has not made its priority peace with the surrounding Arab States, expanding the circle of peace with the surrounding Arab States and
Israel. Its number one priority has in foreign policy terms, has been annexation of the West Bank. It's part of actually the formation document
of this coalition.
So, that in itself is a threat to U.S. interest, Michel, in this way. Basically, since Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon, after the 1973 war,
engineered the eviction of the Russians from the Middle East, laid the groundwork for the Camp David Peace Treaty, which was the groundwork for
the Oslo Peace Treaty, which was the really the groundwork for the peace process of every American administration, the U.S. has basically set up a
regional order of, pro-U.S. Arab governments and Israel that has served our interests quite well, served the economic interests of the United States
and the parties as well.
And Israel's efforts, this government's attempt to basically drive Palestinians out of the West Bank and out of Gaza in pursuit of a goal of
annexation, threatens not only to upset that whole order but also to destabilize two pillars of that order, Israel's neighbors, Jordan and
Egypt, because they both fear Israel wants to drive the Gaza Palestinians and the West Bank Palestinians into their countries. That is in fundamental
contradiction to U.S. interests.
MARTIN: You say this, Netanyahu government made annexation of the West Bank its priority when it came to power in late 2022, which was well before
Hamas' vicious invasion on October 7, 2023. Look, the question I have though is it does seem as though the Biden administration was acting as if
the old Israel, as you put it, was still in play, that they could somehow reason with Netanyahu that he wasn't going to go this far. What is it that
you think they didn't see that you saw?
FRIEDMAN: Well, you know, President Biden, God bless him, you know, used to say about Bibi that he would say to, Bibi I love you, but I disagree
with you, you know. And I think he really underestimated how much Netanyahu himself had changed. And he had changed, Michel, ever since he was indicted
on three different counts of -- different forms of corruption and malfeasance, and faced the prospect of going to jail. And Israel has put a
president in jail and has put a prime minister in jail. It puts people in jail, unlike some other countries I know. And it put leaders in jail.
And this was a very real prospect for Netanyahu. Therefore, he had to be in government. And basically, that created a huge vulnerability for him. The
only way he could get a cabinet coalition to rule was by bringing into Israeli politics, into the very center of Israeli politics people who had
never had these positions of authority before, from the National religious faction and from the far-right ultra-messianic nationalist faction. And he
had to bring them in.
And once they were in, they basically had him over a barrel. Because anytime he didn't follow their dictates, they would threaten to topple him
and expose him to the prospect of going to jail.
So, Netanyahu has never been a straight shooter in this from the very beginning. He wakes up every morning and thinks about his interests, and he
thinks about the national interests, and some days the former wins, and some days the latter wins.
MARTIN: No, I understand that you say that. You say that he's put his personal interests ahead of Israel's, but is it possible that he just
thinks he's right? Is it possible that he just think that this really is the brutality of this campaign in Gaza, these aggressive efforts in the
West Bank that are just what it takes to secure Israel? Is it possible he just thinks he's correct?
[13:45:00]
FRIEDMAN: That's a very good question. I oppose the Israeli invasion from the very beginning. I thought it was a mistake. I thought they should make
this operation Rescue Grandma, focused entirely on the hostages and use the kind of very surgical tactics they used after the Munich massacre, not make
it Dresden.
But when Israel decided, no, no, we're going to go in, we're going to invade. I said, if you're going to do this, therefore, the only way to do
this that will give you time and legitimacy and the resources you need is if you have a Palestinian partner. If you make clear that you're going into
Gaza, not just to wipe out Hamas and then leave a barren wasteland, not just to go into Gaza to resettle it, but to replace Hamas with a decent
Palestinian Authority that might one day be a partner for peace. That is the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank led by President Mahmoud Abbas
that has embraced the Oslo Peace Accords. Bibi did none of that.
One of the -- people don't realize how insane this war has been. This was a war that was launched with absolutely no plan for the morning after. And
the reason there was no plan for the morning after is Netanyahu knew if he ever said he would partner with the P.A., the right-wingers would bring
down his government.
So, it's fought this war now for over a year and a half with no exit strategy. So, what did they do? They went in. They destroyed a lot of
houses. They killed a lot of people. They killed a lot of Hamas people and then they went out. Then they reappeared. They went in. Destroyed more
houses. Killed more Palestinians. Killed more Hamas people, and then went out. And then, finally, we had this ceasefire agreement. And then that got
-- led to the first hostage exchange. And then Bibi said, no, we're going to resume the war. We're going to go in. And now, the plan is to go in and
stay in. And, you know, end the war once and for all.
Michel, I'll tell you, as a veteran of this story, the four most dangerous words in the Middle East are once and for all. OK? Remember, Michel, Israel
has been in the West Bank for 58 years. It still doesn't control the West Bank entirely. So, imagine they're going to do that in Gaza and the West
Bank. You're talking about 7 million Jews trying to control over 7 million Palestinians.
MARTIN: The Israeli government has as much to lose as anyone. Why is there not more of a movement to counteract this ultranationalist messianic
movement, as you describe it?
FRIEDMAN: The answer, basically, Michel, goes to Hamas' responsibility for this. You know, one of my proudest moments in journalism was back in 2002,
I interviewed the Saudi crown prince, Abdullah, who in the interview with me outlined the Saudi Peace Plan. It later became the Arab Peace
Initiative, calling for a two-state solution between Israel and all the Arab States based on a Palestinian State in the West Bank and Jerusalem and
Gaza. It was an amazing initiative.
The interview is one of the most important things I've ever done. It was actually adopted by the Arab League in March. I did the interview in
February and March in Beirut. They had an Arab League summit. Do you know what happened on the first night of that summit, Michel? On the first night
of that summit happened to coincide with the first night of Passover. And a Hamas suicide bomber walked into a hotel, Passover Seder in a hotel in
Netanya and blew himself up with a suicide vest, killing -- I don't remember how many people, but wounding scores. That was Hamas' answer to
the First Arab Peace Initiative.
So, I have no absolute sympathy for these people. These are terrible people. This a terrible organization. And for those students on campus who
on the morning after October 7th, you know, put up signs of glory to the martyrs, shame on you. These are people who have just helped destroy the
Palestinian future more than anybody.
I have no illusions about that at all, but I'm saying to Israel, if that's who you've got out there, then you got two options. You've got permanent
war against them or you try, try and try again to nurture an alternative. There is an alternative there. It's weak and frail. It's the Palestinian
authority. It's been corrupt. It's got all kinds of problems, but I'm telling you, nurturing that alternative rather than a forever war in a
TikTok world will be much better, I believe, for the future of the Jewish people and for Palestinians.
MARTIN: Again, you -- your column was written as a sort of an open letter to President Trump. You wrote that on the Middle East, you have some good
independent instincts. Does he really or is it more that he tends to position his foreign policy and opposition to whatever the Biden
administration did? Because if that's the case, then that really isn't a strategy, it's a reaction.
FRIEDMAN: You know, basically, you know, dealing with Trump's instincts and whatnot is a perilous adventure, you know? But what I was trying to
suggest is that his willingness to negotiate directly with Hamas for the release of an American hostage and not hostage America to Bibi Netanyahu's
interest in his refusal to negotiate I thought it was a good thing. It's shaken up Israeli politics, which is in turmoil today because of that.
[13:50:00]
His willingness to do a deal with the Houthis without, again, hostaging himself to Netanyahu. That was probably, you know, one could make a good
argument for that. His willingness to negotiate with Iran rather than just giving Israel long range bombers, well, you know, we'll have to see. It
depends what the deal looks like.
But he is not -- you know, Biden was in this situation, in fairness, to Biden, where had he tried any of these things, Netanyahu would've gone to
Republican members of Congress and they -- and Trump would've blocked everything Biden tried to do.
So, Trump is just taking advantage of the fact that he's not Biden, that the Republicans are basically a Trump cult who will do whatever he tells
them to do so he doesn't have to worry about being out flanked on his right by Republicans or evangelicals. And this has given him much more freedom of
action. How would it all add up? Well, let's wait and see.
MARTIN: Well, we see that the -- as you and I are speaking now, the president's still in the region. He -- as we are speaking, he landed in
Saudi Arabia, had this lavish, you know, welcome ceremony and is touting his ability to make deals. A lot of these are arms deals. And also, it is
asserted that there will be investment deals from the Gulf States in the United States. So, how do you read that?
FRIEDMAN: Well, you know, Trump is all about -- he's a transactional person. And he thinks life is about leverage, and leverage comes from
having more money than the other guy, which then gives you more leverage to get more money. So, you know, I'm all for trade deals. I'm disappointed
that it has to be all weapon systems.
But you know, that's Trump. I mean, I -- and let's see how many of these -- you know, we've heard these things before, how many of them actually come
through. But at the end of the day, you know, presidents are not judged by how big an armed sales they make to the Middle East. They're judged by
their ability to advance the peace process there.
And when it comes to Trump, that is still TBD. What I was trying to say in my column is his willingness to think unconventionally. You know, is -- I
think could be a real asset here, but I'm not sure he has the patience, the interest, or the people to actually do the hard spade work of the morning
after to actually create a different reality in the region.
MARTIN: Before we let you go you ended your column by quoting an editorial in Haaretz, and Haaretz says that -- cites the fact that nine children were
killed earlier in the week between the ages of three and 14. The Israeli military said that the target was a Hamas command and control center, and
that steps were taken to mitigate the risk of harming uninvolved civilians. And they go on to say, we can continue to ignore the number of Palestinians
in the Strip who have been killed. more than 52,000, including around 18,000 children, to question the credibility of the figures, to use all of
the mechanisms of repression, denial, apathy, distancing, normalization, and justification. None of this will change the bitter fact, Israel killed
them. Our hands did this. We must not avert our eyes. We must wake up and cry out loudly. Stop the war.
I just wanted to hear more about whether you think that something is changing in Israel, the tolerance for this is diminishing.
FRIEDMAN: There's no question. Yes, there's no question, Michel, that this sort of solidarity that was apparent in Israel for the first year of the
war has fractured. You have reservists who are refusing to report for duty now. Because there is a feeling that all the army's doing now is going
after second and tertiary targets or leaders and just killing a lot of people.
And I think as much as that hadn't got through early on, it has gotten through to at least part of the Israeli population, enough of it that
people are based -- I would say the majority in Israel now, their view is, stop the war, give us our hostages back, and if Hamas wants to run the
place, let them run it. OK. And you have an Israeli cabinet basically in opposition to that, that now he says, we're going to restart the war. We're
actually going to restart it in a way where we heard all the Palestinians into about 25 percent quadrant of Gaza Strip. And we are going to
permanently occupy the place.
So, the government now is completely at odds with the Israeli majority right now, and you can see that tension every day you pick up the Israeli
papers. These are all people who have been too long at war. There hasn't also been a huge outcry in the Arab Muslim world about the Jewish
casualties in the first week.
So, you know, my view is these are people who have just done awful things to each other for way too long. And my own philosophy in approaching this
war is I'm not here to keep score who's awful. I've been doing this for 50 years. I'm here to figure out a way out. And all my thinking is devoted to
figuring out how we stop this, how we get back to two states for two people. And that's what's motivating me from the start and today.
MARTIN: Tom Friedman, thank you so much for speaking with us.
FRIEDMAN: My pleasure, Michel.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[13:55:00]
AMANPOUR: And finally, under relationship stress with the United States, Europe needs a warm and fuzzy, queue Eurovision. The contest that brings
Europe together, it's back. The first round of semi-finals kicked off in Basel, neutral Switzerland last night. Performers from all over put on
their best show. And among the 10 acts that qualified four Saturday's final is Ukraine's, the band's song, "Bird of Prey" is about a traveler seeking
light and hope, symbolizing Ukrainian resilience amid the war. It moved crowds to tears. And in solidarity, there were many Ukrainian flags
fluttering in the audience.
That's it for now. Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
