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Amanpour
Interview with South African Foreign Minister Ronald Lamola; Interview with U.N. Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and U.N. Emergency Relief Coordinator Tom Fletcher; Interview with The New York Times Investigative Reporter Kate Kelly. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired May 22, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Two Israeli embassy staff are shot dead in Washington, D.C. We bring you the latest details.
Then, another Oval Office ambush. This time Trump aims at South Africa's president, Cyril Ramaphosa. I speak exclusively to the country's foreign
minister, Ronald Lamola. He was in the room.
Plus, as Israel's Prime Minister Netanyahu vows to control all of Gaza, the United Nations humanitarian chief Tom Fletcher tells me about the desperate
situation for Palestinians there.
Also, ahead, Hari Sreenivasan speak to New York Times investigative reporter Kate Kelly about the issues plaguing American air travel and
possible solutions.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
Officials from around the world are condemning the killing of two Israeli embassy staff in Washington, D.C. Yaron Lischinsky and Sarah Milgrim were
shot dead outside the Capitol Jewish Museum where the American Jewish Committee was hosting an event. Israel's ambassador to the United States
says the pair will, quote, "a young couple about to be engaged."
Police have identified the suspect as 30-year-old Elias Rodriguez from Chicago. This eyewitness video appears to show the suspect being detained
while yelling free Palestine. The attack comes at a time of heightened threats towards Israeli embassies globally, and a global rise in
antisemitism. All of this amid outrage over the country's conduct in Gaza ever since the horrors of October 7th.
Alex Marquardt is in Washington with more. Alex, what is the very latest on the investigation or the situation where you are?
ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Christiane, the ambassador to the United States of Israel has just finished
a press conference here at the capital of Jewish Museum. He said that prime minister -- Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and the American
president, Donald Trump, spoke just moments ago. He talked a little bit about the couple that was gunned down last night saying that they were a
beautiful couple. He talked about their roles at the embassy.
But in terms of the investigation, what we're hearing is that Elias Rodriguez, the 30-year-old suspect from Chicago, he is expected in federal
court later today. So, this afternoon on Thursday. It is unclear right now what the charges are going to be, but what my colleagues who cover law
enforcement are told is that it does appear that he could face federal hate crime charges.
Now, we did hear from the top law enforcement in this country, the attorney general, Pam Bondi. She came down here earlier today. She did not have much
to say when it came to the suspect's cooperation with law enforcement or anything about the investigation, but he did say -- she did say, rather,
that Rodriguez will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
Another several questions that went unanswered that I put to the Israeli ambassador just moments ago were anything about writings, a manifesto, a
screed of some kind that has been reported. Any connections to activists or terrorist groups. On those counts, the Israeli ambassador did not have any
answers.
We do know, Christiane, that this a joint investigation domestically between the Metropolitan Police Department of Washington, D.C. and the FBI.
Last night, I was told by an Israeli official that the Israelis are also involved in helping out where they can.
So, we are expecting to see this suspect in court later today. And at some point, understand better what the charges that he will be facing be -- will
be. Christiane.
AMANPOUR: I mean, I'm just going to throw it out there. Assume also murder charges. But again, you'll tell us when you know. But look, I want to ask
you about this and play a little bit of video. There is -- there was obviously eyewitnesses. Paige Siegel has, shared over the phone, what she
saw. And of course, the sad irony was that it was an event that was actually meant to be trying to find solutions to some of the crises in Gaza
and around. So, listen to what she said.
[13:05:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAIGE SIEGEL, EYEWITNESS AT THE SCENE: What's really interesting is that the event was a panel about Israeli organizations, multi-faith
organizations and Palestinian organizations working together to get people in Gaza the aid they need and not fall into the hands of Hamas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Expand on that a little bit. What more do we know about how this event was set up? What was it -- you know, a bit more detail on it.
MARQUARDT: Yes. I think you put it absolutely right. Tragic irony given what this event represented. It was the American Jewish Committee holding
an event at the Capitol Jewish Museum last night. Young Jewish professionals coming together with young diplomats from other embassies
across the city for an event that was advertised on the AJC's website.
And it was, at least in part, devoted to this question of international aid. These were interfaith groups. The speakers, as I understand, were
talking about aid around the world, including specifically to Gaza. So, this was an event, at least in some part, if not mostly, about trying to
get that much needed aid into Gaza.
It's really sort of extraordinary how these events unfolded. This event ended at 9:00 p.m. we're told here at the museum. People started leaving.
And there was this group of four people, including the couple that was shot and killed, and two of their fellow staffers at the Israeli embassy, young
American women, I'm told, who worked at the embassy, who were approached by Mr. Rodriguez.
The couple was shot and killed. The two other women were not injured, I'm told, thankfully. And then, Rodriguez went into the building and the people
who were still inside at the event thought that he was perhaps fleeing the gunfire from outside, perhaps an eyewitness. They asked him how he was
doing. He appeared disturbed we're told. They offered him water.
And he asked to see security. He asked to see the police. And that's when he said that he had done it for Gaza, and as he was detained and marched
away by law enforcement, that's when he said, free, free Palestine. Christiane.
AMANPOUR: What a horrendous state of affairs. Alex, thank you so much. We turn next to the fallout from President Trump's carefully staged Oval
Office ambush of yet another visiting head of state. This time, South African President Cyril Ramaphosa.
Cameras rolling. Trump confronted him with baseless claims of a genocide against white farmers in his home country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: But you do allow them to take land.
CYRIL RAMAPHOSA, SOUTH AFRICAN PRESIDENT: No, no, no.
TRUMP: You do allow them to take land?
RAMAPHOSA: Nobody can take land --
TRUMP: And then when they take the land, they kill the white farmer. And when they kill the white farmer, nothing happens to them.
RAMAPHOSA: No, there is quite --
TRUMP: Nothing happens.
RAMAPHOSA: There is criminality in our country. People who do get killed unfortunately through criminal activity are not only white people, majority
of them are black people. And we have now been --
TRUMP: The farmers aren't black. The farmers are not black. I don't say that's good or bad, but the farmers are not black.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: There is no such white genocide and crime against white farmers represents a tiny fraction of the country's overall crime. The scene was
reminiscent of Trump's spat with the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy back in February.
So, for other world leaders watching from afar, is a diplomatic visit to America, however needed, becoming more of a risk than a boon?
Ronald Lamola, South Africa's foreign minister was in the room. And he joins me now in an exclusive interview from Washington, D.C. Foreign
Minister, welcome to the program. This can't be easy for you to have witnessed, to have endured, or even to talk about publicly for all the
sensitivities, but what were you thinking when it all sort of started to go south, so to speak?
RONALD LAMOLA, SOUTH AFRICAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Yes. Thank you very much to the viewers. Firstly, let me convey on behalf of the South African
government, our condolences to the government of Israel for the two young diplomats that were gunned down in Washington. We continue to call for
peace in Gaza and the West Bank.
Indeed, it was not an easy outing. We had expected that it'll be robust, it'll be engaging, and it'll involve effects. So, what went through our
mind was that we should be able to achieve the end goal. And the end goal was that there must be a reset of engagements between Washington and the
government of South Africa, and we believe we achieved that because there was engagement after the Oval Office interaction with the media and the
public.
[13:10:00]
There was a deep engagement during lunch to reset the bilateral relations to engage on issues related to the G20, but also on the issues that impact
trade between the two countries, particularly because the tariffs have technically nullified the program called, AGOA. So, that was our main goal,
to take forward that reset of the bilateral relations.
And we had, as all of you have heard, our president saying that behind the scene this matter must be engaged and facts will be put on the table and
the stats will be provided. As you have already said, in South Africa, it is a tiny, tiny and unfortunate number in terms of the deaths of -- in
relation to farmer attacks. About in the last four years, 225 farmer attacks, 101 farm dwellers who are majority black, 55 farm owners who are
majority white. So, that is a period of four years, and that does not represent a genocide.
And -- but it is still unfortunate, it'll need to happen because any crime, it is a crime. And that's why the president then stated that we are dealing
with the crime situation that we need to respond to, which affects all the population, irrespective of race. And blacks are the most are affected by
this crime. So, this also became a discussion during lunch.
AMANPOUR: OK. Let me drill down on some details. For whatever reason, and it's not new, President Trump is hung up focused on this false claim of a
white genocide. I wonder, A, if you were able to get to the bottom of who had told him this stuff, you know, after you presented the facts, you know,
perhaps, you know, out of view of the press. But the pictures he showed you on the video of the road of white crosses, which he claimed were, you know,
however many dozens of white farmers were buried there under those crosses.
This, as we've all fact checked since immediately, is not true. It was a protest against some killings and they used those markers as a protest. Is
that correct?
LAMOLA: Yes, that's correct. It was a protest, I think about seven years ago, on -- in relations to farm attacks. And ironically, it happened I
think about two days after one of the farm workers or farm dweller was buried alive by -- in a coffin called the victim (INAUDIBLE) by white
farmers.
So, this issue does evoke emotions in South Africa, and there is a challenge in relations to farm attacks, but there's also a challenge in
relations to crime in general, which disproportionately affect all South Africans. And that's why there is work that government is doing. And any
partnership remains welcome to respond to these challenges.
But as you will have seen, our intention and brought up goal and picture was that we need to reset bilateral relations with the U.S. And any further
degeneration at that level could have affected that strategic reset. Hence, we continued with the engagement and the meeting. And we are happy that it
ended on a positive note.
The lunch was a very positive and productive. And I think there has been some kind of a common ground rules that have been established for
reengagement, including with regards to a positive message in relations to the U.S. broader involvement with the G20, including the fact that
President Trump remains welcome to attend the Leader Summit in November.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, what's going to be interesting is whether he does, and whether he's -- or sends a high-level delegation or not, and whether, you
know, he restarts U.S. aid to south or -- you know, bilateral agreements and aid to South Africa.
I need to ask you though about one of his other big beefs. He has allowed a lot of Africanas. They are the farming class traditionally in South Africa
into the United States. The only basic refugees who've been allowed into the United States under his administration.
[13:15:00]
We know -- well, you tell me because it is really interesting. If you go all the way back to the end of apartheid and what Nelson Mandela negotiated
white Africanas were never punished. There was never any retribution or anything for apartheid. And in fact, they were allowed to absolutely take
part in the future of the country and politics and business and everything. And we understand that being just 7 percent of the population, white
farmers still own about half of South Africa's, you know, landmass, of its area.
So, what is the actual fact about law that you did earlier about expropriation and what is the -- you know, the re the return for that?
LAMOLA: Yes, not only just 50 percent, it's about 70 percent of farm land in South Africa, productive farmland is still in the hands of white South
Africans, in particular white Africanas. So, as we have already said, indeed, the project of reconciliation of nation building started by former
President Mandela continued even in the past 30, 35 years with the program of a land redistribution, which is a constitutional imperative to
redistribute the land, to reflect demographics of the country.
And the law you are referring to, it's an expropriation act that the president passed and this law was repealing an 1975 act, which was enacted
under apartheid with the -- with clear kind of parameters which were apartheid related, which was aiding the apartheid government in terms of
continuing to take land from black South Africans.
But this was now an amendment or a repeal of that law, which then put safeguards in terms of how the process of expropriation without
compensation, which is a constitutional imperative must be undertaken. And the expropriation does happen in any country, in the U.S., is the imminent
domain, as you have heard the president referring to that. And their sufficient safeguards through our judicial processes in South Africa,
administrative processes. And it is not arbitrary, it is not a land seize, it is a process that is governed by our law, just like in any other
country.
But because of our unique history of land disposition and of land -- that has been seized from black South Africans in the past, there is a context
of land reform within this law, which is a constitutional imperative. And this has also been confirmed by various human rights bodies, including in
Geneva, because we do subject ourself to be peer reviewed by other countries.
We have stated the Human Rights Council in Geneva has confirmed that this indeed a national imperative of redistribution of the land to reflect the
demographics of South Africa.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
LAMOLA: And this, we will continue to engage with the U.S. So, there is no law that is aimed to persecute any white Africana and so forth. But it is
in the spirit of transformation, which is a constitutional imperative. And that's why you will have seen even the minister of agriculture who spoke
yesterday, it's a white South Africans. Mr. Rupert is one of the biggest land owners in South Africa. No one has seized his land.
The golfers that were there, they still have their land. It has not been seized by anyone. If there is any process, it is a process that is governed
by the law, is done through all the processes that the Constitution allow with sufficient safeguards --
AMANPOUR: Yes. OK.
LAMOLA: -- in terms of that. So, there is no genocide or seize or obituary, taking over of the land.
AMANPOUR: And you're absolutely right. I mean, for want of a better term, you had your white allies in the room with you, and actually they're in a
coalition government with you, the Democratic Alliance. And do you think that -- you expected something. I mean, you didn't know that this video was
going to go up, but you expected something and Elon Musk was there.
Do you think -- when you think about this, where do you think the genesis of these false ideas that have been put into President Trump's head, which
actually he was talking about in his first term as well. And by the way, when you mention eminent domain, we know, because we talk to and we've seen
stories of people who live along the U.S. southern border, some of their land has been taken in the eminent domain for the Trump wall there.
[13:20:00]
So, do you think he's just -- was just -- doesn't like your president or just doesn't like South Africa or what do you think it is?
LAMOLA: Yes. We really don't want to speculate, but there has been a group of organizations in South Africa that have been spreading this false and
misinformation, and it's mostly in their websites and so forth. But we are glad that there is also a huge group of Africanas or South Africans,
patriotic that have spoken against this, that there is no genocide. This not true, is not factual. And it's a big movement in South Africa, which
has now evoked patriotism.
And I think that is the reason why you saw even Mr. Rupert and the golfers who were there accepting the invitation to come with the president when
President Trump requested that he should come with them because they is -- they are patriotic South Africans and there are also many other movements
in South Africa of white Africanas who are very clear that there is challenges in our country, but the constitutional provisions and our
architecture does allow an engagement in relations to this.
And even with regards to the song that was played, there was engagement about it that there is context, a historical context that the song was
saying during the struggle against apartheid by the armed doing of the ANC (INAUDIBLE) and also by members of the ANC. It does not literally mean to
do it now and so forth.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
LAMOLA: And it has never incited any type of violence. It may no longer be really relevant at this stage, but it is a song that has got historical
context. And that was further explained.
AMANPOUR: I want to ask you -- let me just interrupt you just for one minute, because that video was there and it was like three minutes long of
Julius Malema, who we all know was expelled by your ANC and has a small party and is a rabble-rouser, and he was, you know, portrayed as being part
of your government. I mean, presumably that's why President Trump's staff put that video out.
I'm just wondering the -- I'm not sure that he knew that Malema was not in your government. I'm not sure that he knew that those white crosses were
not what he said they were. I'm not sure that he knew that some of the pages that he handed to your president were basically not even about South
Africa. Were you surprised by the level of research his aides had done at such a high-level meeting between two presidents? I mean, this easily
debunked stuff. Basic fact checking.
LAMOLA: Yes, obviously, from our side, the end goal was that the interaction must end with the resetting of the bilateral relations. We had
to take a strategic decision whether we want the meeting to collapse on the basis of a non-existing issue or not. And we wanted that this matter, as
you have heard, our president, that behind the closed doors, these issues will be engaged and we are ready to engage on them.
And there was indeed a context provided with regards to the song that it has got a historical context, it's not something that is saying now inside
any form of violence and so forth. And as you have already said, indeed the person on the video is not part of the government of national unity. And
that is not government policy.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
LAMOLA: To kill the boer, to kill the farmer. The government policy is that the South Africa belongs to all who live in, it is united in our
diversity. But the constitution is also very clear that there must be transformation in our country. And that's why there must be transformation
laws in relations to the land, in relations to the various aspect of our society.
So, that is what we are dealing with, when we deal with the various laws of expropriation and other laws.
AMANPOUR: Yes. OK. I want to ask you one more final question because you're clearly trying to reset a bilateral relationship with an important
ally. You need the United States for all that you get and trade and all the rest of it with the United States. But a lot of the angst, a lot of the
tension between you also stems from the genocide case that you filed against Israel for the war in Gaza. It's still ongoing at the at the
International Court of Justice and was first brought shortly after the Hamas invasion of 2023.
[13:25:00]
Do you think that also is part of this ongoing hostility or do you think you were able to talk about that and come to some kind of resolution with
president and his people, President Trump?
LAMOLA: Yes. No, it never arose during the lunch discussion. But we were glad that President Trump himself did say that, let's allow the law to take
its course. Let it have a life of its own. Let the ICJ or the court -- the International Court of Justice make the ruling. So, we take it from there.
And not only on this matter, I think even on the genocide matter.
In the last question when he was asked, he also did mention that he has not yet made up his mind about this issue of genocide. So, we do think that
there is room to reset the bilateral relations between the two countries because, as you have already said, indeed America is our second biggest
trading partner with 600 companies invested in our economy on various technologies, including on issues of critical minerals and issues of
beneficiation in our country and various factories which are contributing immensely into our economy and also to create a jobs.
So, this relationship is important. And also, it's a two-way stream with South African companies, as the president has said, also invested in the
U.S. economy. So, for us, the main trust, and that is what the president said, is that we need foreign direct investment to grow the economy, to
create jobs because we've got a huge challenge of unemployment that leads to inequality.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
LAMOLA: And also, obviously, leads to a high-level of crime.
AMANPOUR: Exactly.
LAMOLA: And that's what we all have to deal with to respond to the crime situation that affects all South Africa.
AMANPOUR: Yes, indeed. Well, listen, we really appreciate you giving us your only interview. We really appreciate all the explanation and how you
think the actual trip ended up behind closed doors and out the camera lens. Ronald Lamola, foreign minister of South Africa, thank you very much for
being with us.
And stay with us. We'll be right back after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Now, for the first time since early March, a trickle of aid has started to enter Gaza, but United Nations officials warned that it is,
quote, "nowhere near enough" after Palestinians there have endured 11 weeks of a total Israeli siege.
Israel's prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, says he will not stop the new military offensive despite growing international pressure.
Tom Fletcher is the U.N.'s humanitarian chief. He's in Istanbul in Turkey, and is in close contact with his team in Gaza, and he joins me now,
hopefully, to tell us what's happening with these trucks of aid. So, first, welcome to the program.
There's been a whole load of dispute over this past week, you know, over are the trucks inside? Are they outside? Are they -- if they're inside
getting to the people? Who's distributing? What's going on? So, can you tell us what is actually getting to people who need it right now?
TOM FLETCHER, U.N. UNDER-SECRETARY-GENERAL FOR HUMANITARIAN AFFAIRS AND U.N. EMERGENCY RELIEF COORDINATOR: Well, you're right, there is a trickle
of aid now getting in, that's the good news here. 300,000 meals delivered today. 87 trucks in, most of them carrying food. Now, that's a drop in the
ocean of what's needed, and I've got 10,000 trucks on the border right now cleared, ready to go. And you know, we'll do everything to get them in and
save lives.
[13:30:00]
AMANPOUR: 10,000 trucks are waiting?
FLETCHER: Full of food, baby food. You know, there are lots of people starving right now. 2 million people inside Gaza at risk of famine. And we
know how to do this. You know, we delivered 600, 700 trucks during the ceasefire. Now, this tough, tough work. We had some of the trucks looted
today. We anticipated that. The security situation is grim. There's obviously a full war going on above us.
The roads are destroyed. People are desperate inside Gaza. Our people are working around the clock. And I just pay tribute to them. You know, many of
our teams are themselves malnourished, and they're getting in those trucks, and they're going to work through the night again and deliver as much as we
can for as long as we can.
AMANPOUR: We can see some of the nighttime video. Can I ask you, when you say trucks were looted, this also a talking point for the Israeli
government. They say, this stuff goes to Hamas. Hamas loots it, Hamas stores it. Hamas diverts it. Who's doing the looting? And are you sure it's
not getting into the wrong hands?
FLETCHER: Well, so far, Hamas is staying well out of the way. A lot of the looting takes place as you come through those border crossings. There's a
no man's land there. I've driven through it myself on the way out of Gaza a couple of months ago where many of those gangs are. And some of it happens
as you hit the communities.
You know, these are desperate, starving people inside Gaza right now. But we don't think it's Hamas doing that looting. And we have distribution
networks. We have our people on the ground. It's in our interest to stop that aid getting anywhere near Hamas and getting it to the civilians who
need it.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you about, look, there are obviously, and we can see it with our own eyes, there are hundreds of thousands of people at risk of
very, very serious hunger, malnutrition, and starvation. This though is a matter of dispute between various sides, certainly from the Israeli
government side.
And you said the other day that, you know, some 14,000 kids could be at risk and you had a timeline on it, then there was a whole load of pushback.
How careful do you have to be with your facts and your language, even though you're describing a situation that we know exists to get it right?
And how much -- and do you still stand by those figures?
FLETCHER: I think that's a fair question. I think we do have to do everything we can to get it right. The -- I do encourage everyone to read
the IPC report. This the report on famine conditions. They report not just on Gaza, Sudan, everywhere around the world. And so, the figure of 14,000
kids at such grave risk was taken from that.
It's actually 71,000 who face severe hunger and 14,000 who face acute hunger. Part of the argument is over their age. I describe them as babies.
And in the report, they're between naught and five years old. I think we just have to focus on the fact that these kids need to get fed.
AMANPOUR: Indeed, indeed.
FLETCHER: That's what's keeping us awake at night when we work around the clock.
AMANPOUR: Indeed.
FLETCHER: I make no apologies for focusing on that.
AMANPOUR: Indeed. And I think many people will agree with that. So, can I ask you what are you able to do in terms of a proper distribution effort?
Because there's no secret, the Israelis don't like UNRWA, they don't like the U.N., they don't trust, you know, they -- and you know all the
sanctions and censure that has come down.
So, now, they're talking about -- and we have the satellite images and we've been shared by this independent party of creating several
distribution points. And I would like to simply play the soundbite from Jack Wood -- Jake Wood rather of the U.S. backed organization called the
Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. Here's what he says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAKE WOOD, GAZA HUMANITARIAN FOUNDATION EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR: I want to stress this plan is not perfect, but this plan will be feeding people by
the end of the month in a scenario where no one has allowed aid to be in over the course of the last 10 weeks. Ultimately, the community is going to
face a choice. This going to be the mechanism by which aid can be distributed in Gaza. Are you willing to participate? The answer is going to
be, you know, pretty critical to whether or not this ramps up to sufficiently feed 2.2 million people in a very desperate situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: What is your reaction to that? Is that a workable plan?
FLETCHER: So, I don't know. I mean, we've had a few meetings looking at this so-called modality. I'm not sure it can deliver at the scale that
we're delivering and we'll deliver if we're allowed to do so. And you know, it's our donors, it's everyone from the pope to the Security Council who's
saying very clearly, this has to be done in the principled way, in line with humanitarian values and principles, which means neutral, impartial. It
can't be in support of the war effort. And we do that everywhere.
[13:35:00]
This our bread and butter. This what we do as U.N. humanitarians. We deliver aid in a principled way. We do it in Gaza, Sudan, Ukraine, all
these other places I've been visiting in the last few months and talking to you from many of them. We know how to do this. We've done it before at
massive scale.
If the impediments, all these restrictions are lifted, we'll get it done. We can save millions of lives. We can feed millions of people in Gaza for
the next few months. We've got the aid ready to go.
AMANPOUR: You know, there's very little medicine that's come in. There are attacks on the hospitals. More and more we are hearing from hospitals
almost every day. We hear the terrible stories from doctors, nurses, internationals who've gone in to try to help. And there is also,
apparently, no new fuel has been allowed into Gaza since the 2nd of March.
Now, this really affects the ability to clean the water. In other words, desalinate and make it actually Potable, drinkable. Can you tell me what
the water situation is, because we've heard terrible things on that front as well?
FLETCHER: It is utterly dire and this one of the problems. You know, we're getting in this baby powder and it needs to be mixed with fresh water and
there's no fresh water. So, we're having to get in water in those first convoys as well.
You know, I have complete trust in my team on the ground to work out what's needed, when, and how to prioritize it. Those first trucks that went in, it
was mainly baby food. We were focused on saving those kids, and we've started to save them. Many of the next 80 trucks have been food, almost
half of it really. World Food Programme, doing amazing work, getting the bakeries back open. Five bakeries open again today. Getting the community
kitchens open. 70 community kitchens back open again today.
In the next phase now, much, much more medicine. A lot of that is what's on the border right now. I went to those hospitals, bombed out maternity
wards, barely functioning, doctors, medics who'd been assassinated, taken out by drones in military strikes. Now, they are in a terrible condition
and we've got to get them back open and that's our next priority.
AMANPOUR: So, I was going to ask you, you've sort of answered it, but what is your -- you know, your personal feelings right now, because you've been
there several times, we were showing some pictures. You've just talked about it. You're having to struggle not just to deliver aid in a war zone,
but you're constantly trying to struggle against, you know, governments or the government of Israel that doesn't want you to get in there and has its
own war aims. How do you feel after all of this?
FLETCHER: Well, it's tough. You know, and just to clarify, because people are watching my words very carefully at the moment. I've only been in once
in the last six months into Gaza for a couple of days. But of course, I know the region well and my team are in there and on the ground. You know,
in a way it doesn't matter too much how I feel. It's exhausting. It's tough. We keep going. It matters whether we're delivering. It matters
whether my amazing, courageous teams on the ground are getting the support and we're hearing it loud and clear now from the International Community, a
lot louder over the weekend and since. And what really matters is, of course, those people who are starving right now and whether the world is
going to genuinely stand up and deliver on this aid.
AMANPOUR: Tom Fletcher, head of the United Nations Humanitarian, thank you very much indeed. And we will be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
AMANPOUR: Now, from Newark Airport's recent air traffic control outages to the January plane crash in D.C. that claimed 67 lives, there's been growing
concern around air travel safety in the United States. New York Times investigative reporter Kate Kelly has been examining the problems plaguing
American aviation, and she's joining Hari Sreenivasan to discuss possible solutions.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARI SREENIVASAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Christiane, thanks, Kate Kelly, the New York Times. Thanks so much for joining us.
Over the past few weeks, there have been several high-profile incidents. There was a big plane crash, there were air traffic outages. You're a
reporter that covers this, and you've been looking into this for weeks now. When it came to that tragedy at Washington National Airport put that in
perspective for us, the number of plane crashes that happen versus the ones that are happening this year.
KATE KELLY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yes. So, that tragedy on January 29th near Reagan National Airport was by far the most
deadly aviation accident in the United States in 24 years. The comparison would be a 2009 crash in the Buffalo area. But -- so that is, I don't want
to say heartening, it was terrible but in the sense of these types of catastrophes are infrequent, I guess that's somewhat reassuring. But you
don't want to see it happen at all.
I have written extensively about the crash at Reagan and we could talk more about that, but I would say that was just a whole array of different
factors, air traffic control being a piece, low snapping being an aspect. But in some ways it's unique compared to what we're seeing at Newark
because it involved frequent helicopter trips up and down the Potomac River, which is very close to the commercial airspace. The design of the
airspace in terms of how close a helicopter could legally come to a landing commercial aircraft in certain scenarios was really not safe.
The National Transportation Safety Board has called for urgent changes to the structure of those flight paths to avoid any possible future issues,
which happily, the Federal Aviation Administration has quickly adopted. But also, just general congestion in that aerospace, what we call task
saturation, meaning aerospace workers like controllers, and even pilots, having to navigate those skies are just overly busy. They have too much to
watch out for and to do, even relative to a normal flight.
SREENIVASAN: I think there's a lot of concern for people about the structural -- kind of the fundamentals underlying the infrastructure,
right? And I wonder the air traffic controllers, the technology, the staffing, that's not something that happens overnight.
KELLY: Yes. And you've really nailed the core problem here. I mean, the problem obviously is that we have short staffing and technological issues,
but the fix is a very long-term fix and it's a solve to a very long-term problem.
So, it's a long story, but I guess I would say what we're seeing, and a colleague and I just wrote about kind of the recent history of air traffic
control investment by the United States government, or lack thereof, I can tell you, it's a multi-administration bipartisan underinvestment or even
failure. It's not just one administration or one party that has dropped the ball here. It's really -- it's a combination of Congress not authorizing
enough funding, the White House and DOT leadership over the years, perhaps not seeing the urgency and not sort of moving politically in an effective
way. And frankly, maybe a collective lack of urgency.
As mentioned, you know, it's been almost a quarter century since we had a deadly crash like the one at Reagan Airport in January. And even though I
think that was something of an outlier in terms of the underinvestment piece, I think it -- there were many different causal factors there, of
which underinvestment is just one. I think until the national attention is really focused on the aviation sector, sometimes there's a lack of kind of
political ability to unleash additional funding and a sense of urgency.
So, what needs to happen now is really a multi-billion dollar, maybe even tens of billions of dollars investment in air traffic control, which the
new transportation secretary, Sean Duffy, has said he wants to do, and he's laid out a framework for that, but also some creative thinking and some
aggressive movements to try to retain and recruit new air traffic controllers so that those ranks aren't so depleted.
Data that The Times reviewed just last week showed that the vast majority of American air traffic control facilities are understaffed today.
SREENIVASAN: So, how many? What percentage?
[13:45:00]
KELLY: I believe it's 99 percent. I think there were only two facilities across the National Aerospace that were fully staffed.
SREENIVASAN: So, why is that?
KELLY: Also, a long story. Some people would go back to the 1980s. In 1981, President Ronald Reagan essentially squashed the air traffic
controllers union and barred all of its members from reemployment. So, effectively, that system had to start from scratch, recruiting new people.
That ban was lifted in 1993, and some of those experienced controllers came back to the workforce. But more or less, the United States had to sort of
develop and grow a whole new generation of controllers.
Since then, there have been a number of different issues. Some of it is just cyclical. Right now, there's a mandatory retirement age of 56 years
old. Secretary Duffy, as an aside, wants to extend that to 61. But there are incentives to retire after a certain period of time with your pension.
Some of that was the pandemic. During the pandemic, training of new air traffic controllers stopped for a period of time because of the health
policies and procedures that were in place prevented that in-person training from occurring. And also, we've seen a huge uptick in air travel
since the recovery from the pandemic such that there's much more demand for these services than there was before.
So, we've seen pretty, major shortages in airspaces like Jacksonville, which is critical to flying throughout the southeast and also is a key hub
for space travel, which is also something that air traffic controllers keep an eye on. We've seen shortages in the New York area. There's a hub in Long
Island where controllers watch over Kennedy Airport, LaGuardia, and up until relatively recently, Newark too.
So, that was an area of staffing shortfalls. That's actually part of why the Newark air traffic controllers that are having so many issues right now
were relocated from Long Island to Philadelphia.
SREENIVASAN: And these are high stress jobs. There's not a chance really for you to come over and look at your phone, watch a couple of videos, and
come back to the job and you're on time that you're on. And if you're in front of those computers and the radar screens. You're talking to pilots
the whole time. I mean, this a very actively engaged and stressful environment.
KELLY: It's very stressful. And under the union contract that these air traffic controllers work under, they're not allowed to sit on position for
more than two hours before they get a break of some kind, but often they only have 30 minutes to use the bathroom, eat some food, recharge a phone,
stretch their legs. It's not an incredibly long recovery time. And shifts, I think, typically are structure for eight hours with those breaks
included, sometimes can go longer.
At a place like Newark where they're having staffing shortages, people are being asked to work overtime, they're bringing people in for as many
shifts, I think, as they're willing and able to do because they are so short staffed. So, I think it's very hard work and very taxing on the mind.
You know, colleagues of mine wrote a series in 2023 about the toll this was taking on people's mental and physical health and some people were drinking
10 cups of coffee or even falling asleep on the job, or worse, you know, turning to drugs, having issues at home. So, it's really -- it's quite a
stressful profession. And I think rest time is very important.
SREENIVASAN: One of the things that we have heard in the wake of this tragedy at the D.C. airport we're families saying, hey, is there a conflict
of interest here? That the FAA not just sort of runs the operation, but they're the regulatory body. That there's not sort of an independent third-
party, a watchdog that can try to get this, or do we have enough kind of supervision? Is the -- does the structure of that slow these things down?
KELLY: Yes. I think I'm hearing the same thing, which is to say there are increasing calls for, first of all, an inspector general look at what's
going on, particularly with the DCA crash, but you know, even more broadly at what's happening with the FAA right now, I have also heard calls for,
you know, maybe separating out the regulatory arm of the FAA to create more independence, or thirdly, you know, creating an independent panel that
might be able to take a look at FAA with experienced, you know, aviation or safety -- air safety officials who really understand the issues. So, I
think there's a clamor to make some changes like that, which are interesting proposals.
I have to say I do think the FAA has been aware of some of these problems for a long period of time. I mean, to take one small example, you know, as
long ago, as 2020 and maybe even earlier, but I know 2020, quality control people in the Washington National Reagan airport said there are too many
helicopters coming up and down our airspace, and something needs to be done about that. And no major steps were taken.
[13:50:00]
So, I think the FAA is aware of all these issues. And certainly, they want safe skies. Certainly, they don't want any casualties. I think there are
plenty of hardworking, knowledgeable people there who -- you know, and they're all committed to that.
But is it a lack of funding? Is it a problematic structure as you suggest, maybe with the regulatory fix? Is it the sort of constantly changing
leadership? I mean, we tend to see changing leadership with a new administration, but if you count acting administrators, we've seen five FAA
permanent or acting administrators in five years.
SREENIVASAN: A lot of people were concerned that there might be impacts to staffing with the. Efforts that the DOGE and the kind of the new
administration came in, they wanted to cut costs. Is -- has any of that happened or is it likely to make things worse?
KELLY: So, my reporting suggests that DOGE has not cut into this area. Sean Duffy, the transportation secretary, had said in the initial weeks of
DOGE, we're not cutting any air traffic controllers. We're not cutting any safety workers. It was a little confusing at first because some of those
mass e-mails that went out to federal employees from the Office of Personal Management were received by air traffic controllers. And I think some of
them did move to take the deferred retirement package, but they were blocked from doing so.
What I don't know, and is an interesting question to ponder is, have there been cuts to other parts of the FAA complex, if you will, that have
affected these workers? So, in other words, departments that are adjacent to theirs. I think it may take a little longer to see the impact of any of
those types of cuts. But so far, I think this core function is untouched.
SREENIVASAN: I also wonder, you know, part of our conversation talked about technology. And I mean, I'm not that old, but I have heard the
government try to make attempts at overhauling our kind of technology in the skies, whether it's adding GPS to planes, changing things on the
ground, et cetera, for at least a couple of decades now. And I'm wondering, where are we in that transition?
KELLY: You know, we're not very far along, Hari, unfortunately. You know, there was -- there's been some attention to this recently because I think
Secretary Duffy has taken the opportunity of -- you know, the focus on aviation after this tragic crash in January and the problems at Newark to
kind of seize some political momentum and solve some problems.
So, he has proposed getting rid of paper strips that are used to provide flight information and put up on the wall in air traffic control centers
and replace them with digital strips. He and Nick Calio, who runs an aviation -- an airline trade association, were holding up floppy discs and
paper strips at a press conference to kind of show how aged this system was or is.
I think, to be honest, you know, some of these systems might be functioning fine even if the technology is old, but some of them are clearly not. And
what's a little unnerving is I don't have a clear sense and I don't know that controllers do of what the problems are. Why are we at this tipping
point where we're seeing all kinds of issues nationwide?
I mean, we've talked a lot about Newark, but in Longmont, Colorado last week there was a 90-second outage of equipment. And this in the Denver
area. So, we're seeing little pockets of dysfunction throughout the country. And clearly, the FAA needs to troubleshoot what the source of
these problems is or are and try to remedy them.
SREENIVASAN: What we've been talking about for the past 15 minutes are really deep problems that aren't going to be fixed overnight. So, am I, as
a passenger, safe when I travel in the United States? Should I, what, Just plan for more delays or outages as we head into this season?
KELLY: So, first of all, I think we have to assume and hope that the FAA will keep safety top most as they look at air traffic control, staffing,
and equipment in these various locations, and make sure that if there are not enough controllers, they have a staffing trigger and they ground
flights. Better to be late than to risk safety, obviously, or to miss a flight than to risk safety. So, yes, I think we should all be prepared for
some delays and some issues along the way.
I wouldn't want to say to your audience, don't fly. I have no information that it's not safe to fly, generally speaking. But I do think we have some
chronic issues, some of which seem to be coming to a head right now. So, I think I would give those air travel days a very wide berth, a plan on being
flexible. And, you know, maybe consider the train or the car if it's pragmatic and if not, you're going to be fine. That would be my thought.
[13:55:00]
SREENIVASAN: All right. Kate Kelly of The New York Times, thanks so much.
KELLY: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Good advice. And make sure to tune in tomorrow for my interview with the former sector of state, John Kerry, who also served a special
climate envoy under President Biden. He joins me to discuss how, in just a few months, the Trump administration has completely gutted climate
protections, threatening the future of our already overheated planet. That's tomorrow.
That's it for us now. Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
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[14:00:00]
END
