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Amanpour
Interview with Ukrainian Parliament Member Oleksiy Goncharenko; Interview with Historian and "On Tyranny" Author Timothy Snyder; Interview with Photographer Sebastiao Salgado; Interview with Palestinian-Canadian Lawyer and Former Peace Negotiator Diana Buttu. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired May 26, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
PAULA NEWTON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I'm not happy with what Putin's doing. He's killing a lot of people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: Russia launches its largest ever aerial attack on Ukraine, as Trump expresses frustration with Putin. We'll have the latest.
Plus, historian Timothy Snyder joins me to discuss how to stop tyranny from triumphant.
Then, Israel strikes Gaza killing dozens, including those sheltering at a school, that as thousands are starving with little aid allowed in. Will
this brutal war ever end? We bring you a report on the human suffering there, and I speak with human rights lawyer and former peace negotiator,
Diana Buttu.
And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEBASTIAO SALGADO, PHOTOGRAPHER: This for me is a kind of a state of a union of the planet. It's a cross section of what we must preserve.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: -- remembering Sebastiao Salgado. Christiane's, conversations with the great Brazilian photojournalist whose work captured nature and the
rainforest.
A warm welcome to the program everyone. I'm Paula Newton in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Putin has gone absolutely crazy, those are the words of President Trump speaking on Truth Social after Russia launched hundreds of missiles and
drones into Ukraine over the weekend in its largest aerial attack of the war, killing at least 29 people right across the country. Here's what Trump
told reporters on Sunday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I'm not happy with what Putin's doing. He's killing a lot of people and I don't know what the hell happened to Putin.
I've known him a long time, always gotten along with him. But he's sending rockets into cities and killing people, and I don't like it at all. OK.
We're in the middle of talking and he's shooting rockets into Kyiv and other cities. I don't like it at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: Now, he also said he is considering additional sanctions on Russia, but so far there's no sign of that actually happening. And while
it's a noticeable change in tone towards Moscow, Trump continues to lash out at Ukrainian President Zelenskyy as Ukraine mourns even more lost lives
now in Putin's war.
We note that America commemorates a solemn day, Memorial Day, a day dedicated to remembering military personnel who died serving in the U.S.
Armed Forces.
Ukrainian Parliament member Oleksiy Goncharenko, pardon me, Goncharenko, has been following these developments very closely and he joins me now from
Ukraine to discuss. And I welcome you to the program on what must be an incredibly trying few days.
As we indicated this week, really, it's night after night. You've posted about this. And in your words, Russia continues to terrorize Ukraine,
specifically civilian targets. President Trump, though, has now taken notice, right? You heard him say right there, he's not happy about it. I'm
wondering, do you believe he will actually do anything about it?
OLEKSIY GONCHARENKO, UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT MEMBER: Hello. First of all, I would like to congratulate Americans with Memorial Day. This is a great day
to really remember those who failed. And so, those who were killed and those who served for the country as military. And now, 1 million of
Ukrainians are serving not just for our country, stopping Russian aggression, but stopping these barbarians on the -- in the gates of Europe
and civilized world.
And if we will not stop them, then it'll be already tasked for also American soldiers who are deployed in Europe to stop them. And I don't want
them to be killed because we know in Ukraine what it -- how it looks like, unfortunately. So, that's why we know, and we knew it from the beginning,
that Putin doesn't want peace.
I don't know why, but President Trump really probably believed that Putin is ready for peace, but he is not. And now, it's clear to everybody,
possibly including President Trump after his recent commands. So, now, I hope that President Trump will move from commands to actions because what
we need is actions. And Putin is really crazy.
Unfortunately, Putin is very emboldened after conversation with President Trump, and I think it's something which should be fixed right now. And the
best thing to do this is to impose really tough and serious sanctions against Russia right now and to send to Ukraine, to deliver to Ukraine, to
Ukrainian army weaponry to stop Russians.
NEWTON: And given those two requests though, so far that hasn't happened. What confidence do you have that that will change in terms of White House
policy?
GONCHARENKO: I don't know. I don't have a confidence I can't have it, but I hope so. Because in other case, it will look like humiliation by Putin of
President Trump, because Putin is just ignoring what President Trump is telling. And if your words mean nothing for Putin, other dictators will
say, OK, why we should listen to American president?
And I think it'll be the very bad day, not just for these countries, so other countries in the world, but for the United States itself. And in
general, for international order. So, I hope that President Trump will put pressure right now on Putin, serious pressure, to make him come in reality
to negotiation table and stop killing right now. Because Ukraine is ready for ceasefire today. So, the only obstacle to this is Putin. You
NEWTON: know, we have zero evidence so far that negotiations are getting anywhere and worse. President Trump, as we indicated, still seems partly to
blame President Zelenskyy about this, regardless of what you just said. I mean, he posted everything out of his mouth, he's talking about Zelenskyy
here, causes problems. I don't like it. And it better stop.
Now, Zelenskyy's comeback on all of this was to quote -- I mean, I'm quoting President Zelenskyy here, "That America's silence encourages Putin
to continue his onslaught." I mean, look, you've already articulated the fact that you hope things will change, but you don't have any evidence that
they actually will. Who can you send to the White House to actually convince Donald Trump? Look, you risk appeasing Vladimir Putin and that's
why he hasn't changed up to the last hour. He continues this aerial onslaught in Ukraine.
GONCHARENKO: I'll tell you. Last -- it was a day ago, not this night, but previous night during Russian missile attack and drone attack in one
family, not far from Kyiv, father, mother, and three children, their house was attacked and hit. They're civilians. And all three children were
killed. All three of them. And -- but mother and father survived.
I would send this mother and father, and I would ask President Trump to watch in their eyes, to look at their eyes and to say, who wants peace?
Will the peace be in Ukraine? Can we count on the United States of America as our partner? Can we count on all the promises which were given to
Ukraine starting in 1994 as a Budapest memorandum, when we voluntarily gave up our third largest nuclear arsenal in the world under the guarantees of
the United States? So, that's what I will -- whom I will say send.
President Trump probably doesn't like President Zelenskyy, and it's absolutely his right, but it's not about President Zelenskyy, it's about
tens of millions of Ukrainians, it's about children, women, elderly people, and other those who are in need of support. And also, it's about the name
of the United States.
And the question is, most important, is the United States a partner you can rely on? And this question is open today.
NEWTON: Oleksiy, we don't have a lot of time left, but I want to ask you, you know, you had made the link in terms of what Europe has said as well,
and like I said, I don't have a lot of time left. Do you have confidence that if the White House and President Trump doesn't back you up that Europe
has the will and the capacity to continue to back up Ukraine?
GONCHARENKO: That's problematic. I mean, we have a lot of support from Europe and I would like to thank Europe, United States for all support we
received. But today, I think Europe is not tough enough. The same like with the United States. Europe is very much dependent on what United States will
say. I want to see tougher sanctions, tougher steps from Europe, for example, seizing of Russian frozen assets.
We need -- Putin understand only one language, language of force, language of strength, and it should be showed to him.
NEWTON: All right. And we will leave it there. Oleksiy Goncharenko, thank you so much. Really appreciate you being with us from Ukraine.
GONCHARENKO: Take care.
NEWTON: Meantime at home, the Trump administration is warring with its own institutions from the courts to higher education. Our next guest, well
placed to unpack all of this, Timothy Snyder is a renowned historian, author of the bestselling books "On Tyranny," and more recently "On
Freedom."
[13:10:00]
He is a strong advocate as well for Ukraine. Now, he's warning that authoritarianism is on the rise, even in the United States. And he joins me
-- us now live from Toronto. I want to welcome you to the program. And let's get firstly to what you just heard from Oleksiy there and the slight
shift in Trump's tone. It is just a shift in tone towards Putin. What do you make of it? Is Trump capable, do you think, of standing up to Putin? I
mean, these are your words, right? What are his views on tyranny and on freedom? because right now he hasn't linked President Trump either concept
to Ukraine.
TIMOTHY SNYDER, HISTORIAN AND AUTHOR, "ON TYRANNY": I think, in general, we have a tendency to over report what Trump says. And the funny thing
about that is it gives him more power at home because we imagine he has powers he doesn't have. But it also allows us to overlook his failures
abroad because people abroad don't have to take his word seriously, and they generally don't.
This is the fifth or sixth or seventh time that Trump has said, oh, I don't like something Putin has done, but there has never been anything like a
policy response. The U.S. is not under Trump addressing any policy instruments towards Russia. And as Mr. Goncharenko said, it's very simple.
We could bring this war to a close by doing two things, serious sanctions against Russia and Congress could do that, by the way. We don't talk about
Trump the entire time. Congress could pass a law. And increasing air defense and other weapon supplies to Ukraine. If we did those two things,
we could bring the war to a close.
But so long as we're not doing those things, our inaction in the story and the words are not the story. Mr. Trump thus far has failed to understand
what war is. And you're right, he doesn't connect it to freedom or tyranny. He also -- I mean, he basically doesn't understand why people fight wars.
He doesn't understand why Ukrainians would defend themselves, because he wouldn't, and he doesn't understand why it is that Russia's trying to take
territory. He just sees that it's one more transaction, why can't Russians do what's rational? He doesn't understand that he himself or our Congress
have to change the stakes if we want to end the war. We could do it. He's the barrier.
NEWTON: Yes. And interesting that you say that Congress could do it because Speaker Mike Johnson would have to bring that to the floor. And
given he certainly is an ally of President Trump, unlikely he would do that.
I do want to move on to certainly many words that you have published in the last few years. You published the book "On Freedom" just last year, and I
know that that is before Donald Trump became president again. In it you argue that Americans -- and this is a controversial comment, that Americans
are by no means among the freest people in the world. Can you reflect on what freedom in America meant when you wrote that and what it means now? We
recall again, it is Memorial Day here, and so many American, young men and women, go to war for freedom.
SNYDER: Well, that gives you a first step towards a good answer as to what freedom is. Freedom is something that you're willing to take risks for.
Freedom is not something that you inherit. You can't inherit freedom. Freedom has to be something that you care about yourself. Freedom isn't
something that's just the absence, it's the presence of human values, human virtues, human actions.
And so, when we ask whether America's a free country, we can -- you know, we can look at the surveys that I'm citing, which are carried out by
Americans, by our own notion of what freedom is, in which we generally are about 50th place.
But we can also ask ourselves, in this situation in which we now find ourselves, in which our own government is very obviously taking away our
freedom, how are we talking about freedom ourselves? What are the things that we are doing? How are we organizing ourselves? What risks are we
taking, comparable or not, to the risks that American soldiers, for that matter, Ukrainian soldiers now are taking? What are we doing?
Because freedom is about caring about things and it's about acting. It's not about talking about how wonderful you are or how great your traditions
are or how you're automatically free. You do those things and your freedom will be taken away. It's about self-reflection. It's about values and it's
about organizing.
NEWTON: Professor, I want to get to your actions now. You do come to us from Toronto. You are now at the University of Toronto. You've expressed
the fact that you and your partner did not flee Trump, yet your move has still received some criticism, as well as, I'll say, some applause. A
response to The New York Times profile about this and your partner, Marci Shaw and Jason Stanley as well, a professor who also from -- who also moved
to Toronto.
The quote is, why aren't they staying and resisting along with the millions of people who are marching on the streets and refusing to submit? Now,
that's one comment. Also, in The Atlantic, George Parker claimed your decision betrayed lesson one of "On Tyranny," and this has been repeated so
often, not in criticism of you, but in really a praise for your book.
[13:15:00]
Your first rule is do not obey in advance. Did you obey in advance here?
SNYDER: Well, the president of the United States, when I moved to Canada, was Biden. So, I moved to Canada a year ago. So, there's kind of a factual
problem here, which I feel reporters maybe haven't done the best job of covering. I moved to Canada thinking I'd have more time to write my books.
Nevertheless, I spent all of October working really hard to make sure this didn't happen.
A few days after I moved to Canada, I went to the frontline in Ukraine. I've been to the frontline in Ukraine twice since moving to Canada. Since
Trump's victory, I've spent hundreds and hundreds of hours in the United States, in Memphis, on the East Coast. Just got back from America actually
a couple of hours ago, working with organizers, protesting myself, helping people to organize.
So, no, I didn't obey in advance because I left when Biden was president. And secondly, I'm doing the things that I can. The political message here
is something like this though, it's very important if you want to resist not to find ways to criticize every single other person, because none of us
is perfect. If you want to resist, what you have to do is find the people that you admire. It doesn't have to be me, it can be somebody else. But you
find somebody you could -- you admire, find somebody you think is more courageous than you, and do something together with those people.
Knocking other people down or criticizing them, especially when you don't know what you're talking about, it doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean, as
for my wife, I find it kind of funny that people, you know, make this into a kind of private thing like. Marci and I move because of things having to
do with our family. Marci right now is in Ukraine. How many of her critics are in Ukraine right now?
Like she's -- she doesn't lack physical courage. She may -- you know, she does things for her own reasons. She's in Ukraine. You know, I go to
Ukraine, we both go to America. We're doing -- do. And so, that's all -- if everybody takes it in that spirit and rather than like trying to break
other people up, join together and work, this thing is going to turn out OK.
NEWTON: You know, you described Trump as a fascist, but others are he hesitant to even use that term. You've spoken about people's belief that
America is exceptional, that the political situation, you know, will self- correct. I know a lot of people still have a lot of faith that that will happen. Yet, I'll point out that you and your wife point out that history
shows that the dissent into authoritarianism doesn't always set off alarms. Sometimes I wonder if complacency isn't the real problem here. What will it
take for people to actually confront this situation for what it is, not wishful thinking on what it will become?
SNYDER: I mean, the two things are act are actually related. Americans are not used to abnormal kinds of politics. Our main tradition actually of
democratization in the 20th century was chiefly African American. So, what it takes is for people to recognize that they're not in the normal
situation, that's the first thing. And then it begins with a lesson you kindly cited, don't obey in advance. And what does that mean? It means
asking about what you, yourself care about. What you yourself think is normal, right, and realizing that you're not in a normal world. And then
act in a way where, A, you know something about what you're doing. B, you can do it regularly. C, you can do with other people. And D, you feel a
little bit uncomfortable because you're doing something new.
If we go along that route, we'll not only feel better, we'll be effective. But there's a key -- the key is to think like it's not, is democracy
working or not? Democracy is not a noun. Democracy is a verb. It works when we work. If we are doing things, then we're going to get out of this all
right. If we just ask every week, is this the week when democracy fails? Then we're not going to get out of this all right.
NEWTON: You know, the war that the Trump administration has lodged against Harvard has certainly elicited a lot of action both from the White House
but also in the courts. Over the weekend, a judge temporarily blocked Trump's effort to bar international students from Harvard.
But the president is also sending a clear warning here that he's prepared to use any mechanism, any leverage he has. He threatened this morning again
to revoke billions in Harvard grants and give those grants to trade schools reiterating his claim that the school is anti-Semitic. Now, there is a lot
here for Americans themselves. It is not just an argument about the benefits of foreign students, of which there are many benefits to foreign
students, as many people have articulated.
But on this Memorial Day, I also want to point out that the key medical studies at Harvard going on right now to prevent brain trauma to service
members are threatened by these cuts. You know, you were employed for many years by an Ivy League institution. Universities right now face a dire
choice. What do you recommend that they do? Do you have any advice for them? It seems that they are really caught in the middle here, whether they
choose to stand up and fight or capitulate in any measure.
[13:20:00]
SNYDER: Yes. I mean, first of all, we need to note that when Trump says that he's fighting antisemitism, that is completely on its face ridiculous.
There is no reason to think that Trump cares about Jews in America, and there's a lot of reason to think that he doesn't. And history shows that
people who attack universities are not trying to help Jews. I can't think of a single example where people attacking universities are actually trying
to help Jews.
And let's remember that we have Elon Musk and a lot of other very questionable characters who have or have expressed or have shared anti-
Semitic views who are very important this administration.
As for the universities themselves, the attack on them is part of a larger attack on American science, on American knowledge, which can only have the
effect, as you say, that people will be sicker, will live shorter lives, will suffer more. And how should they react? We know how they should react.
People are going to take hits, but the hits aren't going to be any smaller if you resist. The hits are not going to be any smaller if you cooperate.
In fact, if you cooperate, you have some chance of sharing knowledge, you have some chance of sharing techniques, you have some chance of sharing
experience and lawsuits. And of course, the law is where this all has to go.
You mentioned grants. These aren't grants. These are contracts which the federal government is breaking unilaterally and thereby breaking the law.
We can't give Trump powers that he doesn't actually have. Each thing that he is doing is illegal and it will be caught as such. And we've got to
describe it that way and we've got to support the universities along the way as best we can.
NEWTON: And do you have faith that the courts will be able to rectify this, as many institutions have taken the Trump administration to court?
SNYDER: Well, I mean, kind of rounding out the conversation, you know, the people who have held Trump back most thus far have been actually, you know,
foreigners who don't take him seriously. Bond markets who aren't people at all. Protests we need more of and self-organization we need more of.
There have been wonderful organizations such as Democracy Forward, Protect Democracy, others who have filed the right kinds of lawsuits at the right
times, and that is necessary. But what the lawsuits do is they stop bad things from happening, and that's very important. It's hard by way of a
lawsuit to make the government actually govern the country. It's up to us as Americans, not the lawyers, as much as they're doing great work, or even
to the Democrats, it's up to us to define what kind of a country we want by supporting institutions, which is the second lesson of "On Tyranny." Pick
some institution we admire, figure out something about it and get behind it.
NEWTON: You know, you recently wrote, and I'm quoting you now, "That the president government invites a terror attack. Most of the people directing
the relevant agencies are incompetent. The next few layers down have been purged in culture wars, much the remaining personnel have resigned, been
fired, or are demoralized. Resources have been diverted away from terror prevention. Americans have been distracted by fiction and chaos, and
potential attackers have been encouraged."
You know, Professor, you understand what criticism some might level at you for that. And just say that that's alarmist and that there isn't real
evidence of that even though there is evidence, in fact, that a lot of those security layers, you know, have been attacked by the Trump
administration. Do you fear that there is something that the Trump administration isn't paying attention to here? Because, obviously, they too
have a vested interest in making sure that there is no terror attack in the United States or elsewhere.
SNYDER: That's -- first of all, that's not so clear to me. I mean, they -- if the -- regimes like this it tends to try to take advantage of terror
attacks in ways that democratic systems do not. I think you'd have to -- you would be more than stretching a point to say that the Trump
administration looks like it cares about terror attacks. If you cared about terror attacks, you would have people with demonstrated experience and
competence in the key positions, which unfortunately, in many of the key positions, they do not.
And unfortunately, the main source of violence inside the United States is homegrown, and we are treating under this administration potential
homegrown terrorists as though they couldn't possibly do anything wrong, which is, I think is a terrible mistake.
So, I think -- look. I hope to God this doesn't happen, but since we have a government whose main mission seems to be its own dysfunction, we have to
be aware that there is a scenario where something terrible happens, and we have to prepare our minds politically for the next step. If something
terrible does happen, we all have to act afterwards as best we can, and that includes not allowing the government, which allowed the attack to
happen to take advantage of it.
[13:25:00]
Over and over and over again in history that's what we see, that governments who allow terror attacks to happen, then try to take advantage
of them to further a regime change. That's a scenario that we just -- it's not alarmist, it's just one of these historical possibilities. If we think
it through to the end, we can prevent that scenario from playing out.
NEWTON: Professor Snyder, I want to ask you something I've been thinking about certainly in the last few months. Trump obviously has done a lot to
push the boundaries of executive power, that almost any president in modern history, you know, just didn't have the audacity to do. Do you worry that
the presidential authority will be forever changed now? I find it hard to believe that even if there is a Democratic president after Donald Trump,
that, you know, they will not be tempted to push the boundaries in policies that they believe are right and just?
SNYDER: I mean, I find that question a very hopeful one. I hope that's the kind of problem that we're dealing with where, you know, there is an
election, there is a Democratic precedent president, they then try to push the boundaries. I'm personally not so worried about that because I'll be
very happy if we get to the point where that's actually the problem.
NEWTON: You don't worry? You don't worry about how that would affect the executive branch and how executive orders really flout the other branches
of government and overstep their bounds? For you, it's about political ideology?
SNYDER: No. What I'm saying is that I'm very -- I'd be very happy if we got, four years from now, and we had an election in which the opposition
party could win. I'm saying I have other worries that are greater and more immediate than that one.
But the other reason -- the other thing I would add here is that in order to get to a situation where we have a normal election in 2028 and where the
opposition party can run a candidate and win, we have to do so much transformative, social, political, organizational work inside this country
that this country is going to look very different and the people who -- so, in order to succeed in getting to that election in 2028, there has to be so
much civic activism that we would by then have the civic activists who would be prepared to deal with the problem that you're talking about.
So, no, of course. I mean, that's a worry. But a greater worry is generating the kind of resistance in the United States, which can get us
around the corner so that we could face that problem down when it comes.
NEWTON: Professor Timothy Snyder, I thank you so much for this fulsome conversation and I hope you join us again soon. Appreciate it.
SNYDER: Thank you.
NEWTON: Now, later in the program, a mother in Gaza with one child left for nine others killed. We will have that story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEWTON: And now, we remember a legend behind the lens. Award-winning Brazilian photographer, Sebastiao Salgado has died at the age of 81. Now,
his iconic black and white documentary still shone a light on conflict -- pardon me, his black and white stills shone a light on conflict and global
events, from the Gulf War to the Rwandan genocide.
But it was the natural world that most fascinated him, both the beauty, the landscapes he pictured and the threat mankind poses to them. He spent years
traveling across the Amazon and was passionate about protecting indigenous peoples there. His haunting Genesis Project, he dubbed his love letter to
the planet, an eight-year expedition right across mountains, deserts, and oceans, capturing a vast array of communities and wildlife along the way.
[13:30:00]
Now, in 2014, Christiane joined him at his exhibition at the International Center for Photography in New York, and here's their conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Here it is Sebastiao Salgado "Genesis." Why did you decide to call this "Genesis?"
SEBASTIAO SALGADO, PHOTOGRAPHER, "GENESIS": Well, for me the most precise word to describe it, the beginning. We live yet inside the genesis.
AMANPOUR: We are still living in what was biblically the Garden of Eden and genesis?
SALGADO: Absolutely.
AMANPOUR: Sebastiao, when you travel on this amazing expedition and see such beauty, it's not for your work, is it? Isn't this just a fabulous
pleasure to do this?
SALGADO: It is. It is not easy, because this place, if they are protected, it's because they are or too far, or too high, or too dry or too cold.
AMANPOUR: This is hard to get there?
SALGADO: It's harder to get there, you must real organize expedition, but is a pleasure, is a privilege, I believe that's the biggest gift to the
person can give to themselves, we give to us to go to this place.
AMANPOUR: But it's fantastic. And now, here we are in the Galapagos Islands.
SALGADO: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And this is a massive turtle. Tell me the story about taking this picture, because it looks like you are way down at his level.
SALGADO: You know, this was the first animal that they went to photograph. Before I had photograph on (INAUDIBLE) all my life, you know, us.
AMANPOUR: This is the first time you didn't shoot people, you shot an animal?
SALGADO: Absolutely. It was the first time. And I tried to photograph to get their divinity, the personality of this turtle. And she (INAUDIBLE).
She was afraid. I tried for an hour. In a month, I was tired. I put myself on my knees. I saw that she start to move. I came down, put my shoulders. I
go into my shoulders to her, she came to me.
AMANPOUR: These are the most remarkably beautiful women, their bodies are amazing, they look untouched. What is this?
SALGADO: We were away always the same animal. We do not change in 10,000 years. These people lives exact like we lived 10,000 years before. They
don't know very well cameras, but they know that you are capturing their image.
AMANPOUR: It is unusual or not that they allow a stranger to come and take pictures of them, in all their vulnerability?
SALGADO: They are not naked.
AMANPOUR: They are not naked?
SALGADO: They are completely dressed with the color that they are putting on their skin, their clothes are the color that they put on themselves. If
they don't put the color, they ask you not to photograph them.
AMANPOUR: And what is the color?
SALGADO: The color is quite reddish. You can see by the grace, that special grace. And for them, naked or not naked, in the sense (ph) they
were not clothes. Normal human being. One born like this. That is so natural. The clothes came after.
AMANPOUR: What do you want this work to tell people? How do you wanted to touch the people who come and look at these amazing photographs?
SALGADO: Yes, Christiane. And this, for me, is a kind of a state of a union of the planet. It's the cross-section of what we must preserve. If
you want to survive as a species, we must protect what these pictures represent and we must rebuild part what we destroy, if we want to survive
as a species.
AMANPOUR: There's a terrible crisis of poaching. People are calling it now almost like organized crime, then using submachine guns to kill elephants
and rhinos and others. What did you find in Zambia, for instance when you were photographing the elephants?
SALGADO: Well, for the first time in Zambia we were attacked by an elephant. Elephant attacked our car. You can see --
AMANPOUR: Is this that one? That's running towards you?
SALGADO: Absolutely.
AMANPOUR: I saw you had serious courage to stand in front of that and take the picture.
SALGADO: Well, you see, because these guys that killed the elephants inside of the national parks, they come by car. And elephants now know that
when they see a car, they are in danger. And they attack.
AMANPOUR: You have traveled this exhibition around, all over the world. How many people do you think have seen this?
SALGADO: I believe that for now we have a little bit more than 2 million people that saw these pictures around the world.
AMANPOUR: That's huge, 2 million people. And all of those could be motivated.
SALGADO: Absolutely. And I hope that they were. That the people -- while we believe (ph) that come inside the show, they will be not the same going
out of this show.
AMANPOUR: You said what's happening to the planet, should raise a red light in our brains, should raise an alarm in our brains, in our minds.
SALGADO: Yes. We are a very recent species in our planet. We have species that have lived much more longer than us, the dinosaurs. They lived for
more than 150 million years. They disappeared most 100 million year ago. We are just arriving in our planet. A few hundreds of thousands, a few
millions of years ago. And we can disappear and disappear very quick.
[13:35:00]
AMANPOUR: We can disappear just like the dinosaurs did?
SALGADO: We can disappear much more faster than the dinosaur, because we are acting in the way that our planet (INAUDIBLE) out of it.
AMANPOUR: So, what are you saying is, that we, the human species, are contributing to our own extinction.
SALGADO: Completely. We are not pay attention to this.
AMANPOUR: Through your work, you really show your connection with all your subjects, throughout all the work that you've done and here with the
planet. You are connected to it. It feels like it's speaking to us. What is it that you want us to understand about our relationship to all of this
beauty, all of this, this planet that we live in?
SALGADO: Everything around us is alive, very alive. All of these mountains, all of these rivers, all of these trees, they are as alive as we
are. We are an animal. We are part of the animal species. We are part of all this. We are nature.
AMANPOUR: Sebastiao Salgado, thank you very much indeed.
SALGADO: My pleasure. Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEWTON: And stay with us. We'll be right back with more in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEWTON: And we turn out a Gaza where people are being displaced again. The Israeli military has issued an evacuation order for most of the southern
and a large part of Eastern Gaza, that's ahead of what they're calling an unprecedented attack. Now, this comes as dozens of people were killed in
Israeli strikes overnight, including families sheltering in a school. Israel says it was targeting a Hamas and Islamic jihad command control
center. It's all part of Israel's renewed and relentless offensive to take control of Gaza.
On Friday, an emergency room doctor was working at Nasser Hospital when the bodies of seven of her own children were brought in to that medical
facility. CNN's Paula Hancocks now with more on this truly heartbreaking story. But we do want to warn our viewers, you might find some of this
disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dr. Alaa al- Najjar is used to seeing the horrors of war in Gaza. She's an emergency room doctor in Khan Younis. But the charred bodies that arrived at her
hospital on Friday were of her own children.
She'd left them at home just hours earlier to go to work. Nine of her ten children were killed in an Israeli airstrike. One son and her husband cling
to life, according to Nasser Hospital. Her brother-in-law describes the moment she found out.
One of the civil defense workers was handing me one of the bodies, he says. She was standing next to me and recognized it. She said, This is Reval
(ph). Give her to me. Her instinct as a mother, as if her daughter was still alive, she asked to hold her in her arms.
Rescuers searched the smoking debris of the house to recover seven of the nine bodies, and say the children were aged from seven months to 12 years.
Family says the 10 children were at home when Dr. Najjar husband, Hamdi, dropped her off at work, then went to find food for them all. When he
returned, he saw an Israeli missile strike hit his home, they say, which failed to detonate. He rushed inside to rescue his children and was injured
when a second-strike hit.
[13:40:00]
Hospital staff say despite the unimaginable loss, Dr. Najjar continues to work while also checking on her husband and her 11-year-old son, Adam. Her
brother-in-law says she's now caught between the dead, her only surviving child and her husband, who is between life and death. May God grant her
patience and grant us patience too.
The Israeli military, says its aircraft had, quote, "struck a number of suspects who were identified operating from a structure adjacent to IDF
troops in the area of Khan Younis." It said it was reviewing the claims civilians had been killed.
Nine members of one family gone in an instant. As it has been since day one of this war, children bear the brunt of the never-ending violence.
Paula Hancocks, CNN, Abu Dhabi.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEWTON: As we just saw there in that report, not only are families being destroyed and torn apart, but they're starving as well. The World Food
Programme says 500,000 people could be on the verge of famine, and the aid being allowed in is absolutely only a drop in the bucket.
Still, despite the growing international outrage, Israel is showing little sign of pulling back. An Israeli military official telling CNN they do plan
to occupy 75 percent of Gaza within the next two months. Meantime, U.S. Special Envoy Steve Witkoff is urging Hamas to accept a new ceasefire
hostage deal.
For more on all of this human rights lawyer and former peace negotiator, Diana Buttu joins us now from Doha. And I welcome you to the program.
The news from Gaza remains just so difficult. This war, 19 months old, no end in sight. You know, I was so struck by what you wrote last year about
this in the Global Mail newspaper, that you lost faith in international law. I'm going to quote you here now saying, "While Israel has made a
mockery of international law, the Global Community continues to stand by idly, evidently unwilling to stop Israel. In short, international law has
no meaning, not to Israel, which systemically violates it without consequence, nor to Palestinians, who have never been protected by it.
Since you wrote those words, in your view, what has changed in your perspective, if anything?
DIANA BUTTU, PALESTINIAN-CANADIAN LAWYER AND FORMER PEACE NEGOTIATOR: Well, it's only actually gotten worse. Since I wrote those words, we've now
had a few things happen. The first is that there have been two indictments by the International Criminal Court of Benjamin Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant,
and yet, nobody has actually arrested either of these two individuals. And yet, while the policy of starvation has been very openly stated by the
current Israeli defense minister, Israel Katz, as well as other members of the cabinet, we still don't see any indictments or any arrests of those
individuals either.
And at the same time, while there is growing condemnation around the world of what Israel's doing. That's it, it's just condemnation. Nobody seems to
be acting. So, the weapons -- the weapons flow is continuing. Nobody's boycotting Israel. There aren't any sanctions that have been placed on
Israel. And for everyday Israelis, their life continues as normal.
And so, faced with this, I'm looking at a situation which international law, while it has all of these wonderful attributes, actually an
implementation means absolutely nothing because it can't protect the most vulnerable people around the world, and that is stateless, defenseless,
especially children in Gaza.
NEWTON: Yes, and I take your point about certainly the defenseless and vulnerable in Gaza, but I don't think Israeli citizens, their lives have
continued as normal either. And I will talk about that in a moment. But I want to get to Israel's Gideon's Chariots, that's what they're calling this
operation, now aiming to control 75 percent of Gaza, squeezing 2 million -- more than 2 million Palestinians into just three areas.
You know, we just saw in that report, right, one strike killed nine children within a single family. Israel says it's increasing pressure to
force Hamas to release hostages. I mean, how do you interpret the true goals of this military campaign in Gaza, despite the fact that the United
States says that there's a peace deal on the table?
BUTTU: Well, the Israelis made it clear, and in particular, Prime Minister Netanya made it clear from the very beginning what he wanted to do, and he
said that he's going to make the Gaza Strip smaller in size and thinner in population. These were the words that he uttered in the very first week.
And so, we've seen that this is exactly what Israel has done, they've made it smaller in size and thinner in population.
And so, what we've seen is that a place that was already the most densely populated place on Earth is now turning into that much smaller, because
Israel has declared so much of the Gaza Strip now no-go zones.
[13:45:00]
Much of the areas, for example, last year when President Biden said, no entering Rafah. Netanyahu made a mockery of it and has completely flattened
Rafah. So, we know what the goals are. The goals are to ethnically cleanse Gaza. He's already said that he will only implement an agreement in which
Palestinians leave the Gaza Strip, not remain there, and he's made it smaller in size and thinner in population. Those are his goals.
NEWTON: And given those goals, I wonder what you make now of what is a dire and urgent situation within Gaza. Humanitarian aid CEO, it was Jake
Wood. He was the head of the U.S. and Israeli-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. He resigned after just a couple months. You know, he said the
operation couldn't uphold core humanitarian principles like neutrality and independence. What alternatives do you believe exist? Because as much as
you and I continue this back and forth, people are starving and dying at this hour in Gaza.
BUTTU: People are starving and they're dying, and this is precisely why it should not be Israel, the country that has said that it intends to starve
and kill people, they should not be the ones in control. This is why there needs to be international pressure to open up the crossing points to make
sure that Palestinians get the food, the aid, the medicine, everything that they need, rather than making it that Israel has the ability to continue to
control it.
This is why we've seen such international condemnation, because when you see that what Israel's end goal is, which is to starve the population, to
carry out genocide, you have to ask yourself, why are we continuing to let Israel do this? So, the result is clear. What needs to be done is clear.
The border crossings need to be opened. Palestinians need to be able to get food, water, fuel, medicine, to be able to rebuild, and that can't be under
in Israel's hands any longer. It can't be under Israel's control. It's been proven that all that it intends to do is just squeeze and squeeze and
squeeze.
NEWTON: You know, given Israel here that, you know, they deny that it's genocide and they say that they want their hostages back. In terms of that
hostage deal, U.S. Envoy Steve Witkoff urged Hamas today, just now, to accept a ceasefire deal that he claims is on the table. Still, the two
sides remain very far apart. I don't have to remind you of that. What is the basis of any deal here and do you believe that there is a chance that
Israel's actions are just trying to bring Hamas to the table at this point?
BUTTU: Look, I think there is the option, there is the possibility, and I think that it's important to keep in mind that there was a deal that was
signed back in January of this year, and it was Israel who unilaterally decided that it was going to continue on with its bombing campaign. Hamas
actually did implement phase one of the agreement. It was Israel that unilaterally decided to bomb Gaza. And that's where we are where we are
today.
Plus, Israel also decided even before the end of the six-phase -- six-week phase that it was going to cut off all supplies to Gaza. So, there is the
possibility there. And it's also important to keep in mind that Hamas, from the very beginning, said that they would give back the Israelis in exchange
for an end of the war, and in exchange for finally releasing Palestinians, 11,000 of them who've been held in an Israeli -- in Israeli prisons and
starved for all of this period of time.
Is it possible? Yes, but it requires international involvement and we can't just be looking at short-term, we have to be looking at long-term as well.
This isn't just a question of a ceasefire, but of finally letting Palestinians live in freedom and finally ending this Israeli military rule.
It is possible, but it requires the will of the International Community and in particular, it requires the will of the United States because it's the
U.S. that has been providing this weaponry, it's the U.S. that has been providing this diplomatic support.
Do I think it's possible? Yes, but it does require sustained international pressure and unfortunately, I just have not seen that over the past 20
months.
NEWTON: And I hear you on the international pressure, and of course, we've discussed that quite a bit. I do want to ask you about reaching to Israeli
allies, though, as where -- as well. The Israeli electorate is a new poll by Channel 12, found that a majority of Israelis, a majority, 55 percent
believe Netanyahu is more interested in staying in power than in winning the war or securing the release of the hostages, and over half attribute
the lack of a new hostage deal to political reasons rather than legitimate security concerns.
I'm wondering, Diana, how do you interpret this growing public skepticism towards Netanyahu's leadership? And do you believe it could have an impact?
Again, I talk about reaching to Israeli allies because we've seen in -- again and again, even in those victimized by Hamas, that Israeli allies are
there, they exist.
[13:50:00]
BUTTU: You know, it's important to look at what these polls are actually telling us. The polls are saying that they're opposed to Netanyahu and that
they're opposed to the war, but at the same time, they're not saying that they're opposed to what Israel is doing. And I think that we have to really
get to the root of this, and by getting to the root of this, it's important to keep in mind that there's been such a policy of dehumanization, so much
so that Israeli politicians are allowed to say anything, including that Gaza should burn, that people should be starved, and there is no -- there
are no repercussions within the system.
And so, I think that if we -- moving forward, there also has -- Israelis have to get the message that what they're doing in Gaza is not good for
Palestinians. That isn't just about their -- them and their soldiers and so on, but that there is a global standard that is being broken and that
they're the ones who are doing the breaking.
I think that it's possible, but again, it requires that Israelis actually look deep inside and recognize what they've been doing over the course of
the past 20 months, and they're just not there yet.
NEWTON: And I only have about a minute left, but I wonder what could compel Israel to do anything? There has been more international pressure. I
know you say it's not enough, but, you know, the E.U. certainly is speaking quite forcefully right now about what it may do. Is there a tipping point
here on the pressure against Israel at all? Do you feel it?
BUTTU: Yes, I do. I think that if these actions -- if these words are met with actions, everything like cutting off trade agreements or imposing
sanctions or not allowing Israelis to travel where there's a tie, there's a connection between what Israel's doing in Gaza and between ordinary
Israelis, I do think that there will be a change.
As it stands right now, we know that Israelis have lost confidence in this government. The vast majority, as you've already said, have lost confidence
in this government, but they themselves are not paying the price that needs to be paid in order for there to be a sea change. Yes, the words are
important, but it needs to be backed by deeds as well.
NEWTON: It needs to be backed by deeds. We will continue, obviously, to follow the negotiations but also hoping for some kind of breakthrough,
given the aid that is still just trickling into Gaza right now. Diana Buttu, we are grateful to you. Thank you so much.
BUTTU: Thank you. Thank you. Goodnight to you. Thank you.
NEWTON: And finally, for us, merci Rafa. All-time tennis great. Rafa Nadal has taken a final bow at Roland-Garros in Paris this weekend with thousands
of spectators paying tribute to the King of Clay. Nadal took the French Open by storm and his debut just 19 years old. Look at that picture.
Winning the first of his 14 titles there more than anyone in tennis history at a major tournament.
Now joined on the court, this was truly extraordinary, by fellow tennis legends, Roger Federer, Andy Murray and Novak Djokovic. He told them -- and
this is interesting, quote, "That's a great message to the world, that we can be good friends, even if we had the best rivalries."
Now with his family and even yes, Rafa Jr. in the stands, I can assure you, apparently there was no eye dry when -- look at the surprise plaque of
Nadal's footprint was unveiled. A symbol of the Spanish player's incredible, and now, apparently indelible mark on the court he once
dominated. Love so much of that. It was good to see.
Here is what Christiane told -- was told by Rafa Nadal after a record- breaking 22nd Grand Slam in 2022.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: There's the cup. I mean, there we have it. The great trophy. 14 times, 22 Grand Slams. A whole load of other, you know, U.S. Open,
Australian Open, two Olympic gold medal medals. Are you ready to declare or at least have people say that you are now the greatest of all time? You
wouldn't agree when I asked you last time?
RAFAEL NADAL, 22-TIME TENNIS GRAND SLAM CHAMPION: I honestly don't think much about that. And from the bottom of my heart, I really don't care that
much, you know. I mean, I think it doesn't matter. You know, I think we achieved our dreams. I achieved my dream, and I enjoy what I am doing.
AMANPOUR: What makes Rafa Nadal happy? What makes you beyond tennis?
NADAL: What of -- well, first of all the good health of myself, of course, and the people that I love, because without health the rest of the things
are impossible. And I'm not talking about injuries. No, I'm talking general health. Then I think I am lucky that I have my friends.
[13:55:00]
Since I was a kid, the same group of friends, a very close family next to me. I don't know, share moments with the people that I like is what really
makes me feel happy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: Universally well liked. Rafa Nadal there with our Christiane Amanpour.
That's it for us for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can
always catch us online, on our website, and on social media. I want to thank you for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
