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Amanpour
Interview with Israeli Former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert; Interview with U.S. National Security Council Former Director for Russian Affairs David Shimer; Interview with Former U.S. Depuy Treasury Secretary Wally Adeyemo; Interview with "Welcome to Wrexham" Executive Producer and WAFC Executive Director Humphrey Ker; Interview with WAFC Goalkeeper Arthur Okonkwo. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired May 27, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): We will defeat those who seek our lives. We will bring back all our hostages. We
will ensure that Gaza no longer poses a threat to Israel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: But as they continue to bombard Gaza opposition groves. And now, one of Netanyahu's predecessors says Israel is committing war crimes.
I'll speak to Ehud Olmert about what he describes as a private political war.
Then Ukraine reels from days of Russian attacks. Two former U.S. officials urge Europe to seize frozen Russian assets to fund Ukraine's defense. David
Shimer, who worked on the National Security Council and Wally Adeyemo, former deputy secretary of the treasury, join me to make their case.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUMPHREY KER, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, "WELCOME TO WREXHAM" AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, WAFC: Completely reignited the people of Breton's love for the
football club. And that brought back, you know, hope and aspiration and excitement, and we've seen this extraordinary transformation really.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- "Welcome to Wrexham." Hollywood meets a Welsh soccer club, the underdog story capturing heart.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Growing condemnation. Israeli strikes have killed dozens in Gaza in the past few days alone, with the death toll there now well over 50,000. The
IDF has issued evacuation orders for most of Southern Gaza. It warns an unprecedented attack is coming as Israel plans to occupy 75 percent of the
enclave within two months.
Let's get the latest now with Jeremy Diamond who is in Jerusalem. And, Jeremy, let me start by asking you about the launch of Gaza Humanitarian
Foundation's distribution of aid inside of Gaza. It was set to kick off this week. And a lot is not known about this organization and this has been
a decision made on the part of Israel with the support of the United States, we are hearing, to circumvent the U.N. overseeing aid. How has
things -- how have things gone in the past few hours today?
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, this the first day of full operations for the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. And what initially
began, as what pictures suggests, would be an orderly distribution of aid to Palestinian civilians within hours devolved into absolute mayhem as
thousands of desperate, hungry Palestinians overwhelmed this aid distribution site run by the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation in Southern Gaza
in the Tel al-Sultan area of Rafah.
You can see in videos from this scene, people who were climbing over barriers and sand berms as well as breaking down fences in order to get
their hands on what little aid remained at that site. Following that, we do know that from several videos you could hear gunfire erupting. I'm told by
a security source that the security contractors, the American security contractors on the ground did not fire a single shot. The Israeli military,
for its part, said that it did not fire any shots in the immediate area of that distribution site, but it appears that they may have fired shots
further away to try and disperse that crowd.
The bottom line here is that this is, you know, just one part of the enormous challenge that the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation is going to face,
getting up on the ground. And a lot of that and the images that we are seeing today stem from the lack of aid that has gotten into Gaza so far,
even as Israel has allowed limited quantities of aid over the last week, clearly it has not been enough to alleviate the hunger crisis in Gaza and
to avoid thousands of people flooding into one of these distribution sites, forcing those American contractors to withdraw in what I'm told was the
protocol for this kind of a situation, something that they had indeed prepared for and anticipated, but certainly, something that they did not
hope would happen, especially not on day one.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, and this foundation, despite the chaos that ensued today, said that it would, quote, "not be deterred" and still planned on
distributing aid to some 1 million Gazans by the end of the week. From what you're hearing from experts, how realistic is that goal?
[13:05:00]
DIAMOND: Well, I should note, first of all, that the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation said that they distributed about 8,000 food boxes within the
last 24 hours, totaling 462,000 meals. But you are correct that that is still a long way away from ramping up to the numbers that they have been
talking about, whether that is the 1.2 million Palestinians they hope to feed within their first week of operations or the, you know, entire 2.1
million population of the Gaza Strip who they say they aim to feed once they are fully operational and ramped up.
And humanitarian aid organizations say that this simply not the way that aid should be distributed in Gaza. They have expressed numerous concerns,
not only about a lack of perceived independence on the part of this Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, which is part of a Israeli approved and ultimately
conceived mechanism, but also, the dangers that Palestinians may face as they will have to travel long distances to get to these secure distribution
sites, three of which are currently in Southern Gaza, one is in the central part of the Gaza Strip, none of those sites are in Northern Gaza as of yet.
Although, that foundation has said it plans to establish two sites in Northern Gaza over time.
But there are enormous challenges here, and that's not even getting to the funding aspect and the supply of food that these U.N. agencies, which have
been supplying the majority of the aid to Gaza will still be holding as they have vowed not to participate in this calling instead for Israel to
open those crossings and allow sufficient quantities of aid to get into Gaza.
GOLODRYGA: Jeremy Diamond reporting live from Jerusalem. Thank you so much. Let's get more on this now, as Israel appears to be rapidly losing
support even among traditional allies. Just today, E.U. Chief Ursula von der Leyen of underline said that the expansion of Israel's military area
operations targeting civilian infrastructure was, quote, "abhorrent." And Germany's new foreign minister said that his country would not be forced
into solidarity with Israel, and that they must now think carefully about what further steps to take.
Now, it comes as the E.U. reviews its trade and political relationships with Israel, a crucial relationship at that.
Meanwhile, the U.K. has paused its trade talks and sanctioned extremist settlers. While Canada and France have also threatened sanctions.
And opposition to the war is growing inside of Israel as well. Among those speaking out is the country's former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. In a new
opinion piece for Haaretz making headlines around the world, he says Israel is committing war crimes. And he joins me now live from Tel Aviv.
Mr. Prime Minister, thank you so much for taking the time. Your criticism of this government and how it's been conducting this war is not new. You
have been outspoken on that front for many months now. But going to this level and saying that Israel is, in fact, committing war crimes is
something entirely different.
I want to read from your piece. You said, what we are doing in Gaza now is a war of devastation, indiscriminate, limitless, cruel, and criminal
killing of civilians. We're not doing this due to some disproportionate outburst by some soldiers in some unit. Rather, it's the result of
government policy knowingly, evilly, maliciously, irresponsibly dictated. Yes, Israel is committing war crimes.
So, what has changed in your view, and why are you speaking out publicly and globally now?
EHUD OLMERT, ISRAELI FORMER PRIME MINISTER: Well, as you said before, I've been speaking for a long period of time and I criticized the Israeli
government and particularly, the lack of any vision about what comes next, what are we going to do in order to end the war, release the hostages, and
start to move it towards some kind of a political horizon that will start perhaps a process that will end the military confrontations.
What happened particularly in the last few days was the statements made by Israeli cabinet ministers, the leading cabinet ministers that say we should
staff Gaza. What is it, if not a war crime? I mean, how can a serious person representing the Israeli government can spell it out in such an
explicit manner that we should starve Gaza, that there should be no supply of basic fundamental humanitarian needs to a couple of millions people
living there. There are terrorists that we need to fight, but this not a war against Hamas, this looks more and more like a political war of the
Israeli prime minister and the cabinet, and the group of fags, which are now representing the Israeli government inside the Israel. And of course,
the world are committing actions, which can't be interpreted in any other way.
[13:10:00]
GOLODRYGA: As we have noted calls of condemnation and threats of additional sanctions and a reevaluation of trade partnerships among
traditional allies have now been dominating news headlines over the past several days. I want to place sound from German Chancellor Mertz on this as
well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRIEDRICH MERTZ, GERMAN CHANCELLOR (through translator): What the Israeli army is now doing in the Gaza Strip, frankly, I no longer understand what
the objective is, to inflict such suffering also on the civilian population, as has increasingly been the case in recent days, can no longer
be justified on the grounds of a fight against Hamas terrorism.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: We even hear from President Trump who has not gone to those links, but has said that the war should come to an end. When you have
allies like that making comments to this degree and even threatening implications for trade relationships, what does that mean for Israel? And
it's increasing what appears to be isolation on the global stage?
OLMERT: Well, certainly it looks like it and it's very sad. I must say that I now listen to what the new chancellor of Germany said, and I know
he's a friend of Israel, as Prime Minister Starmer or President Macron and Prime Minister Carney and Prime Minister Meloni. So -- and the ministers
and prime ministers of so many other countries, and President Trump. President Trump is held by most of the Israelis to be a great friend of the
State of Israel. He also says that we should supply the basic fundamental needs of the people of Gaza. They can't starve.
And I think that the international condemnation of the policies of Netanyahu and the group of ministers, the messianic extremists, right-
wingers that are now leading the government and dictating to Netanyahu what should be done and how it should be done, I think that they have to listen
to what the international community says and to change direction.
And I personally hope that President Trump will take the lead in making this effort. I think that no one but him can actually summon Netanyahu to a
place they both love very much, which is the Oval Office facing the TV cameras, and he should do it and say to Netanyahu, enough is enough. It's
time to end the war. It was a time long time ago, but it certainly is today to end the war, to supply all the humanitarian needs of the people that are
uninvolved in terror, and there are many of them, and release the hostages and move forward. It's time.
GOLODRYGA: Why do you think he hasn't done that thus far? He had an opportunity when he was in the Oval Office just a few weeks ago, and by all
accounts seemed to embarrass the prime minister by announcing that he's going to be speaking with Iranian officials about a potential nuclear deal.
Why not do this then?
OLMERT: Look, you know, how many people do you know in the world that can interpret and analyze President Trump? I'm not one of them. I don't know. I
think that he cares. And I respect him for this, because he spelled it out in numerous occasions in the last couple of days in Washington. So, he
didn't do it a couple of months ago. It's time to do it now, and I hope he will do it. I really certainly think that he's the only person perhaps that
can force the Israeli prime minister to come to terms of his reality.
GOLODRYGA: How --
OLMERT: -- And it was the moral reality of what is being accomplished by his government.
GOLODRYGA: These are serious charges, as you know, that you were leveling against your government and the prime minister. How should they be held
accountable?
OLMERT: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: How should they be treated? What charges, if any, should they be facing from their own population or from the International Community?
OLMERT: You know, it's not enough the time accusing them. You now want me to be the judge and the executor. I hope that this government will
disappear as soon as possible. I believe that the majority of Israelis are sick and tired of these policies, of these statements, of what the terrible
damage that was caused by this government to the moral integrity of the State of Israel and the people of Israel.
[13:15:00]
And I hope that the movement of protest, which is expanding rapidly in all of the streets of our country, in Tel Aviv and in Jerusalem and in other
parts of the country, that will gain additional force in order to create a necessary political process that will lead to immediate elections and the
removal of this government.
GOLODRYGA: Mr. Prime Minister, one thing that I hear repeatedly from people who are very critical of Prime Minister Netanyahu, Israelis I'm
speaking of, is that conversations like this and articles like yours that speak to a global audience only embolden support for Prime Minister
Netanyahu, even as you see in response to the condemnation and the concern from traditional allies, his response is one of defiance. So, what do you
say to those who worry or criticize these types of actions that you're taking as only emboldening this government?
OLMERT: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: Domestically.
OLMERT: Yes. This a typical dilemma of -- yes. This the typical dilemma for people like me and those who share with me my opinions is if -- you're
damned if you say, you're damned if you don't. So, the question is, what is my moral choice to start with? And my moral choice is to speak up in the
most explicit manner. I do it inside Israel. The articles you quoted was published in the very important magazine in Israel, Haaretz, to start with,
to the Israeli people, and I speak on the media here and many, I'm not alone, there are millions of people that share my opinion.
And in fact, in spite of the impression made that the support on Netanyahu is emboldened effect is that in all of the polls which were taken over the
last few months, including over the last few days, the power of his coalition in the public opinion is eroding rapidly.
So, what -- if we will succeed, with the assistance and the moral support of western leaders from Germany, from Great Britain, from France, from
Canada, from Italy, from Holland, from other countries, and of course, the American president to change the tide that will bring the might of this
government very close and very soon.
GOLODRYGA: And yet, there are still a solid 21 seats that still vote for Prime Minister Netanyahu in every poll, even among the most recent. Why do
you think that is?
OLMERT: Look, there is a political base that is loyal to the prime minister, but this political base seems to be weakening on a daily basis.
21 seats, entirely insufficient to form a government. So, it's true that Netanyahu presently entertains a certain slight majority in parliament, but
this a reflection of elections which took place almost three years ago. Now, we're in a different situation and the public opinion speaks up and
it's going to grow, and it's going to become more aggressive in the manner of its opposition to the Israeli government.
And again, it's very important that people will know that the voice of Israel they come across is not the voice of Ben-Gvir or Smotrich or even
Netanyahu, the voice of Israel is the voice of millions of people that think like me. They think that we have to stop the war, they think that we
have to release all the hostages rapidly, that think that we have to make sure that no uninvolved people in Gaza are hurt because of the expansion of
this military operations, which has -- is entirely unjustified and doesn't serve any important interest to the State of Israel at this point.
GOLODRYGA: And as recently as today, a released hostage who I interviewed, and that interview will air tomorrow, time and time again I hear from the
hostages, and I've spent a lot of time with them, have said some of the most fearful moments of their time in that brutal captivity has been when
the IDF has been attacking because they are concerned and they were concerned about inadvertently being killed and those attacks, and at the
same time their captors became more aggressive towards them as well.
I do want to ask you about the disproportionate civilian to combatant ratio that's only grown and expanded over the course of this war now, Israel's
longest in its history. What are you hearing, what are your concerns about the conduct? I know you write about some of this in this piece, but if you
could just sum up your concerns about the conduct of some of these soldiers, their exhaustion at times, the concerns about those that refuse
to serve now and criticism that they, at times, appear to be leaderless in their conduct in Gaza. What are your thoughts on this?
[13:20:00]
OLMERT: Well, correct, you know, that more and more in the general population of Israel, and of course also in the Army, which is made up
mostly of reserve soldiers. So, there are citizens like me except that they are now serving as reserves -- reservists in the army, they're becoming
sick and tired of what appears to them to be something which is totally in opposition to what they believe is the real interest of the State of
Israel. And when the soldiers are sick and tired and many of them seem to not want to carry on, many bad things may happen in the battlefield and
outside of the battlefield. And I hope that this will be in another ingredient enforcing the Israeli government to stop it right now.
GOLODRYGA: Mr. Prime Minister, in just the last few moments that I have you, I do want to get you to weigh in on your views on where things stand
with Iran negotiations and the increased reporting we've seen that if, in fact, these talks fall through that Israel may be prepared to launch
imminently. Do you think that is what Prime Minister Netanyahu would do?
OLMERT: Look, you have to distinguish between what he can do and what he says. Rhetoric of Netanyahu is well known, and we are all acquainted with
the periodical threats that he poses to the Iranians. I still believe that there is a good chance that President Trump will succeed in these
negotiations. He say just the other day that there are good signals coming from these negotiations.
Obviously, Iran is a threat and is a danger, not just to the State of Israel but to the entire region and perhaps to the entire world. And no one
better than President Trump is aware of that and is prepared to deal with it. And he say time and again that if Iran will not come to terms with
America about the nuclear, then bad things will happen.
I hope that there will be an agreement, and I hope that this agreement will make sure that there is a strict supervision about any future planes of
Iran towards the nuclear. Trump said, and President Biden before him, President Obama before them, they all said that America will not allow Iran
to have a nuclear bomb. I hope that the president will take care of this. And in any event, I don't think that this incumbent upon Israel to attack
Iran because I think that America can deal with it either by negotiations or by a military action in a much more effective manner than the rhetoric
of Netanyahu.
GOLODRYGA: Ehud Olmert, thank you so much for your time and for joining us.
OLMERT: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: And tomorrow marks 600 days since the October 7th attack when one man's harrowing journey through 505 days of Hamas captivity began. Omer
Shem Tov was kidnapped from the Novo Music Festival outside the Gaza Strip on that dark day, and only released in February of this year. He was held
many feet underground in Hamas tunnels for much of his stay there, and he endured long bouts of solitary confinement, mental abuse, and starvation. I
spoke with him about the darkest days and the memories that won't let go, and you can watch that interview on our show tomorrow.
And we'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:25:00]
GOLODRYGA: Ukraine has come under fierce Russian bombardment in recent days and now, a mood shift from its European allies with German Chancellor
Friedrich Merz announcing that Kyiv has permission to fire long-range missiles deep into Russian territory, and with U.S. assistance at risk of
drying up this summer, Ukraine faces an urgent question, how to fund its fight against Russian aggression? My next guests have one possible answer
for Europe to finally seize frozen Russian assets.
David Shimer worked at the National Security Council under President Biden while Wally Adeyemo served as deputy secretary of the treasury. They both
wrote that piece and are joining me now live on the program. Welcome both of you.
So, David, let me start with you. This a piece you've entitled "Make Moscow Pay." And you say that it is time to make for Russia to pay for the war
that it chose to wage. Why are you calling on Europe to seize those frozen assets now? Mind you, this war has been ongoing for over three years.
DAVID SHIMER, FORMER DIRECTOR FOR RUSSIAN AFFAIRS, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: Thanks, Bianna, and great to be here. We wrote this piece now
because the conditions regarding the Ukraine war are evolving such that it is becoming more rather than less necessary, more urgent rather than less
urgent for Europe to seize and utilize the mobilized Russian assets that sit in its jurisdictions for two reasons.
The first is that President Putin has made very clear, both by word and by action, that he intends to continue his war against Ukraine, the war that
he has chosen to wage over the past three years, and that is ongoing now through the ongoing missile strikes that have been launched against Kyiv
and elsewhere, through the ongoing offensives that the Russian military is conducting this war will continue. President Putin believes time is on his
side and he is not yet ready to agree to the unconditional ceasefire that Kyiv has accepted.
Second, U.S. aid is winding down. The Biden era military aid deliveries that were approved late last year will run out this summer. There is no
reasonable prospect of this Congress approving additional funding for Ukraine. And therefore, with those two realities put up against each other
there is a gap that others need to fill and the Europeans can fill it by utilizing these sovereign assets and therefore, acquiring a sustainable
support -- source of support for Ukraine for years to come and to fill the void that the United States is unfortunately leaving the.
GOLODRYGA: And, Wally, freezing these assets shocked the world were considered rather aggressive, unprecedented at the time. And they happened
with the approval of President Biden, who you were working with as a way to have leverage over President Putin. This obviously surprised President
Putin as well as his aides in the Kremlin, and yet, here we are and that money has yet to be utilized. Why do you think that is? And what is your
message to European allies about why now is the time? President Biden is no longer in office. I haven't heard President Trump address this issue. I'd
be curious to get a sense of how he views this.
WALLY ADEYEMO, FORMER U.S. DEPUY TREASURY SECRETARY: I think you're right. Bianna, it's great to be with you. That when we took the action of freezing
Russian sovereign assets, it was a surprise to the Kremlin. The biggest surprise, of course, was that Europe took this action.
When Russia invaded Crimea in 2014, they moved their assets out of the United States to Europe and other countries thinking that they would be
protected. But Europe took this action to freeze those assets in response to Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine. And throughout this war, Europe
has taken a number of steps to hold Russia accountable. And today, it's time to take this step, which is using these sovereign assets.
And the reason that now it makes sense to do this because it is what the Ukrainian people need. Ukraine cannot continue to pay for the defenses it
needs and the -- and support its economy without Europe taking this action. And the European people shouldn't have to pay -- to bear this cost alone.
Fundamentally, part of what President Trump has advocated for is burden sharing in terms of this war. And the people who owe the most in terms of
burden is Russia and the Kremlin to helping to support Ukraine. They owe this to the Ukrainian people.
[13:30:00]
The United Nations General Assembly has made clear that Russia violated international law, and as part of that, they owe the Ukrainians support to
repay and rebuild the country.
GOLODRYGA: As this decision was made, I remember at the time, while it had support from European allies, it was an aggressive move, it was a rather
unprecedented move, and there was concern about precedents being set there. And that is one of the issues that continues to be raised among legal
experts.
Christiane just spoke with the E.U. sanctions envoy David O'Sullivan in April, so just a few weeks ago, and asked him about this issue. Here's what
he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID O'SULLIVAN, E.U. SANCTIONS ENVOY: The question of what ultimately happens to those assets we are very clear that they will not be going back
to Russia anytime soon. And we're very clear that they will be leveraged at some point to pay for the reconstruction of Ukraine. So, that's the
position. And in the meantime, Russia does not have access to that money, and we are using windfall profits from those assets in order to provide
loans to Ukraine for military equipment.
Whether you can seize and use the immobilized assets is a complicated legal one, and we haven't found the perfect solution to that, but I emphasize
they're not going back to Russia and they will be leveraged to pay for the reconstruction of Ukraine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: So, you're asking to go a few steps further. Do you have the perfect legal answer to that, Wally, to address some of the concerns that
he just flagged?
ADEYEMO: The United States and Canada have found legal ways to pass legislation that allow us to seize those assets based on well standing
international law. The General Assembly, as I mentioned, passed a resolution that clearly stated that Russia violated international law and
Ukraine's sovereignty. Based on that, we have the ability to apply countermeasures to Russia, and those countermeasures can include seizing
Russian sovereign assets to use for the Ukrainian people.
The nature of the war where we are today is completely different than we were at the beginning of the war when we had the financial resources to
support Ukraine's defense and their economy. Today, in order for us to change the trajectory of the war, Europe is going to have to do more. And
it -- in order for Europe to do more, they shouldn't only call on their people to sacrifice in terms of financially providing for Ukraine, but they
should use these Russian sovereign assets.
Throughout the war, when we froze the assets, when we put in place the oil price cap, there are complicated legal and economic issues we had to work
through. And the thing that I am the most confident about is that Europe has the ability when they have the will to be able to work through those
issues, to be able to support Ukraine.
The greatest economic risk to Europe today is not using these assets, it's Russia winning in Ukraine and being in a position to destabilize Europe.
GOLODRYGA: David, how do you expect Vladimir Putin to respond if in fact the E.U. does follow your advice and seizes those frozen assets?
SHIMER: So, my view is that seizing these assets could affect Russia's calculus in such a manner that would make it more rather than less likely
to achieve President Trump's objective of an unconditional ceasefire in Ukraine. And here's why. President Putin believes currently that time is on
his side in this war, that the longer it goes on, the better his position will become, because U.S. aid is drying up, Russia is attempting to make
further gains, and they're benefiting from support from China, from North Korea, from Iran.
In order to affect his perception of the trajectory of this war and of the battlefield itself, Europe can seize these assets which would provide
years' worth of support for Ukraine. And in so doing force, the Russians force the Kremlin to reassess whether, in fact, time is on their side or if
it would better serve Russian interests to come to the negotiating table in a real way, and to actually move forward with the unconditional ceasefire
that the Ukrainians and the White House are pursuing.
GOLODRYGA: Russia has done the opposite of that. As you know, President Zelenskyy has followed through on the suggestions and requests and demands
made of President Trump in terms of even implementing a ceasefire that has not been followed by President Putin. He didn't even show up to Turkey when
President Trump had suggested a meeting between the leaders, and in fact, we've seen the largest aerial assault On Ukraine since the war began just
over the weekend, 900 drone attacks over three-day period of time.
I'm wondering how you interpret, David, the latest back and forth and the public rhetoric that's become increasingly hostile between, well, I guess
directed just in one direction, and that's from President Trump, against Vladimir Putin. He said, I've always had a good relationship with him. But
something has happened to him. He's gone absolutely crazy. The Kremlin responded that President Trump was being, I guess, a bit emotional, to
paraphrase the Kremlin's response.
[13:35:00]
And just now, moments ago, President Trump issued a statement on social media, and here's what he said. What Vladimir Putin doesn't realize is that
if it weren't for me, lots of really bad things would've already happened to Russia. And I mean, really bad. He's playing with fire. David, have at
it. How do you interpret those words from President Trump?
SHIMER: So, broadening out from just his words, the way I interpret the last four months is that the Trump administration's attempt to end this war
through a ceasefire have obviously not worked. They have gotten Ukraine to agree. Russia has rebuffed, President Putin is stalling peace talks, as you
said, he blew off attending those talks in Turkey.
And so, there is a potential inflection point here, which is can the new administration pivot from basically reducing Ukraine's leverage by not
providing additional assistance, making unilateral concessions to Russia and sowing discord with Europe, that's been their approach to this point.
Can there be a pivot toward actually applying pressure on Putin in order to draw him into the negotiating table through adjusting his calculus, as I
mentioned around the benefits and relative costs of continuing this war?
We've seen reports in the Wall Street Journal and elsewhere that President Trump is considering additional sanctions on Russia. That would be a good
first step. It's also necessary to provide additional arms and weapons to Ukraine to help with their self-defense, and if the Trump administration
were to do that in conjunction, in coordination with the Europeans tapping into the sovereign assets to provide that sort of sustainable source of
support for Ukraine over time, that is an approach that has a much higher likelihood of succeeding in getting this war to an acceptable end rather
than the approach that's been taken to date.
GOLODRYGA: Wally, in the final moments we have here, just from a realistic standpoint, I remember early on in this war in terms of who would blink
first as far as stepping up support, President Biden ultimately had to say, fine, we can use U.S.-made tanks inside of Ukraine before then Europe
followed suit. Realistically, we haven't even seen President Trump, though he threatened to do so, increase sanctions against Russia and secondary
sanctions at that. Do you foresee a scenario where Europe alone would seize these assets, $300 billion worth of sovereign wealth if the United States
doesn't at least increase sanctions first?
ADEYEMO: I think it's important to remember that things have changed. Look at what Chancellor Merz announced today. I think Europe recognizes that
what Russia is doing is not only a threat to Ukraine, but it's also a threat to Europe, and that's why they're willing to take actions they
haven't contemplated in the past, including looking at taking the $300 billion of Russian sovereign assets to help support Ukraine.
And by supporting Ukraine, Europe is in fact supporting Europe and making sure that Russia learns the right lesson, that they can't violate the
sovereignty of any country and get away with it. Ultimately, it's not only President Trump who's watching at the moment, but more than 80 members of
our -- the United States Senate has signed on to legislation that would increase sanctions on Russia so that we're in a position where the United
States and Europe and our allies and partners will take action to hold Russia accountable and to ensure that Ukraine has the resources it needs to
defend itself and support its economy.
GOLODRYGA: Wally, I've been hoping to talk to you more about tariffs. David, I was hoping to talk to you about the gutting at the NSC. That means
that you both will have to come back very soon and join us again. A lot to get through. Appreciate your time.
ADEYEMO: Thanks for having us.
GOLODRYGA: Thank you.
SHIMER: Thanks, Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: And coming up after the break, "Welcome to Wrexham," the docuseries about a Welsh soccer team bought by Hollywood stars Ryan
Reynolds and Rob McElhenney.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
GOLODRYGA: Now, to the rise of Wrexham AFC. Four years ago, Hollywood Stars, Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElheny decided to buy a struggling football
team in a small town in North Wales. It was their mission to make the 160- year-old club flourish again, and it's been climbing up the league rankings ever since. You can watch their success behind the scenes in the docuseries
"Welcome to Wrexham."
For more on this remarkable story, the club's executive director Humphrey Ker and Goalkeeper Arthur Okonkwo joined Hari Sreenivasan.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARI SREENIVASAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Bianna, thanks. Humphrey Ker, who is the executive director of the Wrexham Football Club,
as well as executive producer of the show, "Welcome to Wrexham." And Arthur Okonkwo, the starting goalkeeper for the actual team. Thank you both for
joining us.
And for our fans, fair warning, we might discuss some spoilers. So, if you want to know what happens to the team along with the show, be warned.
And so, Humphrey, this a story about a football club really in the middle of Wales, but also a town and so much more. You've kind of been there with
Rob McElhaney and Ryan Reynolds, these two big Hollywood stars as they take over the team a couple of years ago. You've been there kind of from the
beginning. How did this come together? Did they say, you know what, we knew this guy. He's kind of English. Maybe he'd want to work on this football
club with us?
HUMPHREY KER, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, "WELCOME TO WREXHAM" AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, WAFC: I mean, basically, yes. Yes, I had an English passport. I
could travel internationally during lockdown. That was one of the of the -- my many qualifications. Yes. I worked for Rob as a writer on his Apple TV
show, "Mythic Quest," and was a big football fan and kind of got teased by him a lot for being a football fan. He was very, if I may say this, very
American about it and was like, come on, there's not enough points. Nothing ever happens. You know, he was a big American football and basketball fan.
He wanted more end-to-end action. I think.
But I won him over, slowly but surely. And at the start of lockdown in 2020, he -- I made him watch a documentary called "Sunland 'Til I Die,"
which explains kind of very brilliantly the relationship between fans and football clubs in the U.K., how much joy we take from our football teams,
how much pain we suffer because of them, all those things.
And then typical Rob, slightly crazy fashion, he was like, we should do this. We should buy a soccer team and turn it into a documentary. But
whereas "Sunland 'Til I Die" about a team that is kind of on the decline at that stage, they've since recovered, thankfully, he was like, we should do
one about a club on the up. Why don't we we start at the bottom and see if we can take one all the way to the top? And so far, so good.
SREENIVASAN: How did you guys find Wrexham and say, OK, this going to be an opportunity? Because that talent in like the first season which you've
watched, is that the town was a little resistant to these Hollywood outsiders coming in and thinking they know what they can do.
KER: Sure. Yes. Well, I mean, Wrexham had a fantastic history, you know, it was a club that historically had played, you know, the second tier of
English football. They, you know, played in Europe and had all sorts of extraordinary footballing adventures, third oldest professional club in the
world. But yes, Wrexham had hit tough times and we had very unscrupulous owners in the past who'd, you know, really used the football club as a
means of enriching themselves rather than being good stewards of it.
And so, yes, when we came in, I think probably people were a bit like, why on Earth is the bloke from, "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia" and the man
from "Just Friends," that's how I think of Ryan, that's my favorite Ryan Reynolds movie rather than all this recent Marvel stuff. You know, what are
they doing here? Are their intentions correct?
And, you know, fortunately, I think we were able to kind of allay those concerns early on, because you know it -- what's great is it's very easy to
present yourself as a good owner if you have the intentions of a good owner. You know, it's hard to pretend to be people who care about the
football club and you know, I think Arthur will be able to attest as one of our current players, you know, they are people who really care and they
follow every kick of every game and they really -- both of them have caught the bug, you know. And it's -- that's very infectious. I think that's very
-- a thing that our fans seeing them and love about them.
SREENIVASAN: I want to play a clip of Ryan and Rob really talking about the immeasurable kind of good luck that they've had and also how this has
been such a rollercoaster journey for them.
ROB MCELHENNEY, CO-CHAIRMAN, WREXHAM AFC: We're so fortunate that we keep getting really, really lucky. Yes, we have an incredible foundation of
people that keep putting us into positions where we can get lucky, but we're getting lucky.
[13:45:00]
RYAN REYNOLDS, CO-CHAIRMAN, WREXHAM AFC: The one thing we did do that I think we planned for and hoped for was that sort of symbiotic relationship
with the community. The feeling in Wrexham and the club, the high tide raising all boats.
MCELHENNEY: There just feels like over the last four years it's been this rollercoaster of magic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SREENIVASAN: Humphrey, kind of tell me a little bit about the connection and the impact that this club has had before this town before the
docuseries got there and sort of after Rob and Ryan and the revamping of what is Wrexham today.
KER: Yes. Well, I mean, Wrexham AFC, the football club, has been really the kind of beating heart of the -- of this -- the town. You know, this a -
- as various industries went away, as the coal mining industry went away, the brewing industry went away, you know, we made a lot of steel in Wrexham
as well I think at one stage, you know, these jobs disappeared. And the thing that kept everybody together was the football club.
But you know, the fortunes of the football club declined over, you know, decades. And we spent 15 years in the National League, which is, for the
people of racing, was a source of great shame. You know, I think they, they felt like this thing that they loved had fallen into the doldrums of
football.
So, then when we came along and injected, OK, yes, finance but probably more importantly, hope in a way into this institution and started getting
people to come along back in droves and reclaim something that they had kind of lost in themselves. And then, yes, you know, we did get very lucky
in hiring Phil Parkinson, our manager, who, you know, did this extraordinary job of assembling this group of players over the course of a
few years who completely reignited the people of Wrexham's love for the football club and that brought back, you know, hope and aspiration and
excitement.
And we've seen this extraordinary transformation really. Many people told me that when they would go away on business from Wrex, they'd go to London
for some business meeting and people say, oh, where are you from? And they say, oh, I'm from near Chester. And now, people say I'm from Wrexham
because they're proud to be from Wrexham. they're excited, reignited their passion for being from Wrexham.
And we're seeing -- you know, young people that used to move away to Manchester, Liverpool, London, they want to stay in Wrexham, they want to
be part of something that are bigger than themselves, and we're so excited to have played even like a small part in that.
SREENIVASAN: Arthur, I had heard rumors and confirmed them or beyond whatever, but that in this process, I'm assuming you had opportunities from
other places who've watched you on the TV show, watched your performances on the field, and probably offered you more money. Why did you choose to
stay with Wrexham?
ARTHUR OKONKWO, GOALKEEPER, WAFC: Yes. You know, there's a lot of rumors and (INAUDIBLE), potentials when you're in that situation in the summer.
And you know, you sometimes you just have to take a moment and think about what it's that you really want and what you want to do and what's the best
move for your career.
But I knew -- I always knew that Wrexham was the right move for me. The fans wanted me back, the players wanted me back, you know, they couldn't
tell me anymore. And I knew it was a place where it'd be a good foundation for me to come back. And like I said before, I'm young. I need a place
where I can play and somewhere where I enjoy my football and Wrexham was that for me.
SREENIVASAN: You know, you've also -- you've been in the dressing rooms of, you know, super clubs where there is almost a separate Lamborghini
parking lot for these guys who are making millions and millions of dollars, right, versus, you know, the tiny ramp that we see on the show where people
are going in and everybody's giving -- asking you for autographs and really like this close to you and there's no huge security failings.
OKONKWO: Yes. You know, I've seen both sides to it. When I was at Arsenal, the season I had with the first team, you're literally escorted everywhere
you go, you don't see the fans. We have security everywhere. And I think that's a special thing that's at Wrexham at the moment. You know, you come
in before every game, you sign everyone's stuff and, you know, you feel good about it. It's really special to be able to engage with the fans
before the game, and that's something you don't really get, obviously higher up the levels.
And I constantly said, I hope it stays at that, being able to engage with fans as much as you can. It's always a special feeling.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This man's on fire.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What a brilliant stretch by Okonkwo. Slow together.
OKONKWO: Early into the game, dash striker is running through on goal. I come to spread and smother and my hand gets caught in between him and Max.
It happened so quickly. Going into halftime, I was thinking maybe I've just done a sprain or just a knock. Kev was able to strap up my hand, made a
safe second half, and I was really in pain.
[13:50:00]
But I just didn't want to come off the pitch. I really wanted to stay on, try and help the team as much as I can.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SREENIVASAN: There's a time also, I should say, that you busted your jaw and you looked a little -- had a phantom of the opera sort of mask going on
for a few games, right.
OKONKWO: Yes.
SREENIVASAN: But I'm wondering what it is about being an athlete that makes you play through, I mean, playing with a broken, actual broken wrist
even for two minutes must be excruciating. I mean, are you just bathed in adrenaline? Like what's going on in your head that keeps you on the field?
OKONKWO: Yes, I think a little bit of it is adrenaline. I think the other part of it just wanting to stay on the pitch and wanting to win the games,
wanting the finish the game. I think, you know, for a goalkeeper, the hardest thing goal is coming onto the pitch. So, I know if I come off, you
know, Callum Burton or Trump (ph) is going to have come in and I know how that feels. So, part of me also thinks about that and it's not easy coming
into the game cold.
But yes, it is very painful. But I've done it. I've done it last year, broken jaw this year, broken wrist. You'll get used to it. Just playing and
playing.
SREENIVASAN: So, going into this next league, you know, are you -- do you have a different diet, you eating more broccoli? You -- what kind of new
drills are you doing? I mean, because you've watched enough of these games, you've played against some of these people before. You know the caliber of
player and how good they are already. So, how do you prepare for that in increased intensity?
OKONKWO: Yes, just -- it's hard to prepare for a league I've never played in before. But the most I can do is obviously increase my training this
summer, to make sure I'm physically ready. That's the most important thing. And then, yes, you know, the manager will have plans in place on how we can
achieve big things this season and what we need to do and taking those things on board. I think the biggest thing is adaptation, being able to
adapt from league one back to the championship. Because it's a huge trip.
I think, you know, the manager or the players he brings in, the players we have, you know, have full confidence going into next season.
KER: But (INAUDIBLE) I'm going to jump out a lot of cupboards to surprise after. Just throw a tennis ball in his face every now and then, just see
what happens.
SREENIVASAN: OK. Now, we know the trick. Got it.
KER: Arthur Okonkwo will catch it.
SREENIVASAN: Yes. So, I wonder, Humphrey, how does the organization adapt? Because you guys are now not anywhere close to the big fish. The type of
money that the teams in this league will spend on their players is enormous. A lot of them have played in the Premier League and are just kind
of holding their own until they get back up.
The -- even some of the first teams that you played have multi-billionaire backing. I'm not saying money automatically equals greater quality, I'm
just saying that this is -- you know, how do you compete?
KER: Look, I mean, it will be a huge challenge. You are right. I mean, there's -- as you say, there are a lot of temporarily embarrassed Premier
League teams in there. There are teams that, you know, historically have spent most of their life in the top flight. There's a lot of international
players littered throughout the league. So, yes, you know, it will definitely be a challenge.
But we -- you know, I was, last season, very kind of -- I banged the drum for quite a long time for like, look, 12th place. 12th place is fine. If we
get 12th place, we should all be very proud of ourselves. And fortunately, Phil and Arthur and the rest of the lads are not sort of interested in that
kind of nonsense.
So, you know, this year I'm not going to say that. I'm going to say we're going to go in and we're going to, we're going to give it our best, shoot
our shot and all that kind of thing and see where we wind up coming the end of the season.
But, yes. I have faith. It's very difficult after watching three promotions in a row not to have faith in these guys.
SREENIVASAN: Arthur, what about you? I mean, what -- how do you brace your brain to it? I mean, are you a kind of a take it one game at a time, guy?
Do you have a goal?
OKONKWO: You know, I said the same thing last year, for me, it doesn't make sense to hope for 10th or 12th, I'm always going to (INAUDIBLE) we're
going to go for promotion. And if we don't, then that's what it is.
But yes, I think everyone should be positive and we're going to try and go for it again. Obviously, this year is much more challenging, but it just
doesn't make sense in my mind to think about definition in the middle when there's so much higher you can aim for.
[13:55:00]
SREENIVASAN: Arthur Okonkwo, head goalkeeper and Humphrey Ker, executive director of Wrexham AFC, thank you both for joining us.
KER: Thank you.
OKONKWO: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And "Welcome to Wrexham" airs Thursdays on FX, streaming next day on Hulu in the U.S. and Disney Plus in the U.K.
And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always
catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thank you so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
