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Amanpour
Interview with French Minister Delegate for European Affairs Benjamin Haddad; Interview with Former Russian Foreign Minister Andrei Kozyrev; Interview with Lawyer for Jimmy Lai Caoilfhionn Gallagher; Interview with Jimmy Lai's Son Sebastien Lai. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired August 19, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Is a peace deal on the horizon for Russia and Ukraine. U.S. President Trump seems to think so, but what about the Europeans? I asked France's minister
for European Affairs, Benjamin Haddad. Then the Russian perspective. Former Russian Foreign Minister Andrei Kozyrev tells me if Putin actually wants
peace. And Hamas agrees to a ceasefire proposal. We have the latest from Jerusalem. Plus, I speak to the son and lawyer of detained media tycoon
Jimmy Lai, whose fate is being decided in Hong Kong's landmark national security trial.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
After Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy came to the White House with European leaders and President Trump met Russian President Vladimir Putin
Moscow is -- in Alaska, is Moscow's war in Ukraine in any closer to ending? That is not yet clear.
But so far, Trump's attempts to get Putin and Zelenskyy into the same room don't look promising, as the Kremlin won't commit to a face-to-face
meeting. And the killing continues. Russia launched a massive aerial assault during the Washington meetings. Now, European and world leaders are
assessing the aftermath of the high stakes meeting.
Benjamin Haddad, France's Minister of European Affairs, supports a strong and autonomous Ukraine, and he joins us now with the latest. Benjamin, it
is good to see you. President Macron, for his part, yesterday gave an interview to U.S. media where he said he remained skeptical about Vladimir
Putin wanting peace. I would imagine he relayed that skepticism to President Trump himself. Just talk about why he came here with that
sentiment, especially given that his past attempts with Vladimir Putin on negotiating peace, obviously failed.
BENJAMIN HADDAD, FRENCH MINISTER DELEGATE FOR EUROPEAN AFFAIRS: Hi. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. President Putin cannot be trusted. When you
look at the situation on the ground. He's the one who continues to bomb. He's the one who continues to escalate to make maximalist and unacceptable
demands while Europeans, Americans, and Ukrainians share the same objective, which is peace. We want a durable peace to this war that was
started by Russia, this war of aggression that already started in 2014, but of course with the full-scale invasion in 2022.
This is why president Macron and other Europeans came yesterday to Washington to engage with President Trump and what was, I think, a very
respectful and constructive and useful meeting to set the parameters of a negotiation. And the fact that if tomorrow we manage to have a ceasefire,
an agreement, we clearly need to have robust security guarantees to guarantee that tomorrow this peace is not going to be just a break that
Russia uses to re-arm, to improve its economy and to reattack Ukraine as has been done in the past.
Think of the Budapest memorandum in the '90s. Think of the Minsk agreement. All these agreements that were betrayed and violated by Russia will need a
strong Ukrainian army, will need strong, robust security guarantees so we can deter an aggression.
And this is something, you know, I think, once again, a doable peace is an objective that is shared by Ukrainians, by the Trump administration, by
Europeans, and this is why it's so important to have the kinds of dialogue that we had yesterday.
GOLODRYGA: There was a hot mic moment that I'm sure you saw between President Trump and President Macron as the president was sitting there
with the seven European leaders before reporters where President Trump said, I think Putin wants to make a deal for me, as crazy as that sounds.
What do you make of that statement? The president continuing to have faith in Vladimir Putin, at least in the lip service that he seems to be paying
President Trump that he's earnest about wanting to make a peace deal?
HADDAD: You know, there's one thing that has been clear to us in the last few months is I think President Trump is sincere and determined in finding
the way to have a peace agreement. And I think that's something very positive. Because once again, this war has been, you know, terrible for
European security, terrible for Ukraine, this war of aggression that was started by Russia.
[13:05:00]
But everything -- when you look at the behavior, the -- even the language by Vladimir Putin, he has always chosen war and aggression. Look at 2008
with Georgia. 2014 already with the annexation of Crimea. Look at the fact that even as we're talking about diplomacy and engaging with dialogue, the
bombings by Russia continue every day against Ukrainian civilians, against Ukrainian infrastructure. And this is why President Macron was very clear
yesterday that if Russia doesn't want to stop its aggression, we'll also have to find the leverage to continue to increase the pressure on Russia.
We've done so in the last few years with the weapons deliveries to Ukraine, with the sanctions we've seen, I think a very tough stance even on
sanctions by the Trump administration and by the Europeans with the adoption of the 18th package of sanctions of the European Union. And this
is leverage also that we have to continue to increase the pressure on Russia.
So, once again, let's do everything we can to engage in this diplomatic process. Let's do it in a way that really paved the way to a robust long-
term piece, strong Ukrainian army, security guarantees for Ukraine. And let's also not forget that we can continue to increase the pressure on
Russia if Russia continues its cynical behavior of bombings and escalation on the ground.
GOLODRYGA: So, on the one hand you can say a big takeaway for Ukraine and reassurance for European allies was President Trump seems more and more
committed to some sort of security guarantees now, it's the first time we've really heard him lay that out and say as much for Ukraine.
Now, when it comes to specifics, he offered few, if any, at the White House yesterday. This morning on Fox News he was asked about that, specifically
whether that means us boots on the ground. He said, no, you have his assurance as U.S. president, there will be no U.S. boots on the ground. But
something like aerial support perhaps could be an option. Others suggesting intelligence sharing as well. From France's perspective, is that enough?
HADDAD: First I will tell you, I think it is important that President Trump speaks about these security guarantees in the world that the U.S. is
ready to play for it. Because I think it's really in our interest that this -- the end of combat will not be used once again as a parenthesis by Russia
to reattack. No one wants this war to be restarted by Russia down the road. This is why we need these strong security guarantees. They're in the
interest of Europeans, of Ukrainians, and of the United States.
When it comes to the details, this is precisely, I think, the kind of conversation we need to have today. You know that today in Europe, the
partners of the Coalition of the Willing, which is this coalition that was kickstarted by France and the United Kingdom, with Europeans and also non-
Europeans, to talk about the kind of commitment that we're ready to make this coalition that the willing is gathering today to continue to hash out
really specifically the details on how we can do this, how we can prop up, continue to support the Ukrainian army, the Ukrainian defense industry, and
also the potential deployment of European contingent.
GOLODRYGA: How far is France willing to go given their alignment here with the Coalition of the Willing, along with the U.K. to protect Ukraine?
Benjamin Haddad, can you hear me? I think we just lost Benjamin Haddad. We will try to reconnect with him. Apologies for that technical error.
Coming up though later in the program, what Putin wants from these talks. A former Kremlin insider joins us with his take on the high stakes meeting
and where we may go from here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:10:00]
GOLODRYGA: All right. I believe we have Benjamin Hadad back with us. Benjamin, thank you so much for reconnecting. I do want to go back to my
previous question, and that is to the point that you brought up about the virtual meeting today between the leaders of France and the U.K., Prime
Minister Starmer and President Macron, the co-chairs of the Coalition of the Willing, and these are European allies that are willing in the phase
and state of a pause in the fighting and a ceasefire to actually provide protections for Ukraine perhaps even boots on the ground. How far is France
willing to go in that scenario to protect and provide security guarantees for Ukraine?
HADDAD: Yes. Apologies for the disconnection. Now, look, you know, I will tell you something that's been a constant driver of President Macron's
foreign policy in Europe is the fact that we're entering a dangerous world and Europeans need to take more ownership and more responsibility for their
own defense and security. It's all this vision of strategic autonomy that you need Europeans to increase the defense spending. And over the two terms
of the Macron presidency will have doubled the defense spending of France and our neighbors are doing so as well, that you need a robust defense
industry and that you need to be able to take responsibility when your security is at stake.
And when it comes to Ukraine, clearly it is European security that it is as a stake with Russian aggression. It's European security architecture that
Russia is targeting. This is why Europeans will need to take a stronger part in these security guarantees to have a robust, strong, independent
Ukrainian army. So, when the Kremlin talks about demilitarization of Ukraine, it's of course unacceptable. You need a strong Ukrainian army to
deter Russian aggression, but you also have to have Europeans taking the lead. And this is why President Macron has been clear that as part of the
this discussion, we're ready to have a European contingence, reassurance contingent, not fighting forces, not on the frontline, of course, but
reassurance contingence and work with the Americans in that direction.
But I think really, we are at the time and you see concrete measures that are taken in this direction. We are at times where Europeans are taking
ownership for their security, rising as a geopolitical actor in this moment, and I think that's key. That's critical for Europe. That's I think
also in the interest of the United States. And of course, that's really necessary for the long-term security of Ukraine.
GOLODRYGA: President Trump once again this morning warned Putin that he would face a rough situation if he didn't cooperate on a peace deal. This
isn't the first time that we've heard threatening tougher language from President Trump. That was never fulfilled really in terms of actions like
secondary sanctions. It seems that India is bearing the brunt of Donald Trump's aggressive reaction to this war in Ukraine as opposed to Russia
directly. I mean, if that were the case, if it had anything to do with purchasing Russian oil, one would go to China and really level secondary
sanctions against them since they're their number one purchaser.
What more should the United States do in terms of putting more pressure on Russia? And what can Europe do, specifically those $300 billion in frozen
assets?
HADDAD: Look, first, it is clear that if Russia continues to escalate its bombing, continues to refuse to engage in serious diplomacy and then the
killing in Ukraine, we need to increase the pressure. And one of the main tools of pressure are indeed the sanctions. The Europeans just adopted the
18th package of sanctions, which targets specifically the energy sector, which still continue to drive resources for Russia's aggression and war
effort. I think that's absolutely critical.
And it's important that we continue hand in hand with our American partners. We continue to have the leverage. We're already working in Europe
on the next package of sanctions. As you know, when it comes to the Russian frozen assets, we are using them -- we're using the windfall profits that
are generated by these assets. We do it at a G7 level, also with the United States precisely to continue to support the Ukrainians. We have a loan of
50 billion euros based on these assets. And we need to continue to do this, especially to support the Ukrainian war efforts.
So, once again, you know, if Russia continues to evade its responsibility, continues to refuse, diplomacy continues to gain time, we'll need to
increase pressure and increase the brunt of sanctions.
[13:15:00]
GOLODRYGA: Is it France's view that it was a mistake to hold a summit between the president of the United States, literally welcoming, rolling
out the red carpet in Anchorage while the fighting continued, and then once again yesterday picking up the phone in a separate room, because according
to the president, he didn't want to insult the European leaders who were present, who don't have his cordial of a relationship with Vladimir Putin
to call him and brief him on the negotiations and their status, specifically because the fighting continues? I'm not saying that people
should be opposed to conversations, and I know that's something President Macron was really pushing forward, but if there's no ceasefire in place,
the fighting continues, is that not seen as a reward for Vladimir Putin?
HADDAD: Oh, look, I mean, we've supported the diplomatic efforts and the negotiation. I think they're important steps to have these conversations.
It's also true, as you mentioned, that a ceasefire is needed because how can you engage in serious diplomacy, long-term diplomacy when you think
about, you know, a settlement while the bombing continues and while Russia continues cynically to bomb Ukrainian civilians, infrastructure, to
continue to try to push the frontline? This is why European leaders yesterday have called indeed for a ceasefire, a truce to be able to engage
in a serene way in a diplomacy.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Benjamin Haddad, thank you so much for your time. I'm glad we were able to reconnect. Really good to see you again. Thank
you.
HADDAD: Thank you so much.
GOLODRYGA: Well, Russians seem upbeat after the Putin-Trump summit, celebrating the fact that their president made no apparent concessions and
faces no new penalties, as we just discussed, after emerging from the Alaska meeting without any agreement on a ceasefire proposal for Ukraine.
And Trump continues to make new overtures. As we mentioned, he interrupted his White House meetings on Monday to speak with Putin for roughly 40
minutes.
Andrei Kozyrev was Russia's foreign minister in the 1990s and joins us with an insider's view of how Russia sees the Trump peace process. Andrei, it is
good to see you. First of all, if we can take a few steps back and get your thoughts on the aftermath of the summit in Anchorage, where President
Trump, who threatened that he would be tough with Vladimir Putin threatened potential sanctions, said that he would walk away from the meeting within
the first two minutes if he didn't think that President Putin was serious, none of that happened. They met for three hours and yet no deal was made,
the fighting continues.
ANDREI KOZYREV, FORMER RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Yes. Thank you for having me. You are actually one of few who pronounce my name quite well, and
especially my family name. Thank you so much. As to Putin Alaska and everywhere and especially now, seems to be encouraged and he really does
want a piece deal. Piece in terms of P-I-E-C-E. That is he wants a deal where he could get a piece as large as possible and is strategically
important as possible without bloodshed, you know, just as a present. And I think he kind of feels that probably that's within reach. So, that's what
he wants right now.
GOLODRYGA: You are talking specifically in terms of his new demands that there could be a freezing in the battlefield fighting if Ukraine gave up
the entirety of the Donbas, some of that land that Ukraine still holds. Donald Trump, for his part, said that President Zelenskyy has to show some
more flexibility and many are interpreting that as President Zelenskyy being willing and agreeing to land concessions. How big of a strategic loss
would that be for Ukraine if President Zelenskyy felt that he had no other option but to give up Donbass? And then I want to ask you about Crimea
separately.
KOZYREV: Well, if President Zelenskyy is made by pressure from Russia and from other circles to make rhetorical concessions, that would be a disaster
of strategic proportions, of historical proportions. And speaking specifically of the Donetsk area, which is now under discussion, it's
actually a large area. It's probably the size of some European or even bigger than some European countries.
[13:20:00]
And it's strategically important because for a long time, Ukraine was working to strengthen their position. It's strengthened fortified position,
which is important for the whole war. So, that would be just a disaster.
GOLODRYGA: And it's also strategically important just from a military perspective as well, because there is a great deal of concern that if
there's just a freeze in fighting right now that Russia could once again resume that fighting and Ukraine could lose a lot of the military leverage
that it had by controlling that land.
President Zelenskyy also then, of course, references the country's own constitution, saying he can't unilaterally make that decision on his own.
And I still believe to this day, despite Ukrainians desperate for this war to come to an end, the majority would not support giving up the entirety of
the Donbas.
The president said that in addition to not joining NATO or putting NATO off the table, that Russia should have the right to recognize Crimea as well as
its own. And that really speaks against what the president's own policy was during his first term and not recognizing Russian control over Crimea. How
significant is that? If at the end of the day, from a pragmatic standpoint Ukraine has to make some concessions too, as painful as they may be, should
they make the concession of refusing or giving Russia the right to control Crimea?
KOZYREV: I have a growing difficulty in understanding American position, but Russian dream and demand was always to take Crimea and they took it by
force. And if that is recognized by the United States and other western countries, that again will be historic disaster because, you know, there is
a precedent when Stalin, who probably Putin admires, when he took by first Baltic States, the United States never recognized that, you know, not even
officially -- not unofficially.
And there were sanctions in boot for that matter. And those sanctions stood until the Soviet Union collapsed. But that was not only annexed -- you
know, taken by force, those countries, but they were included into the Soviet Union, and America never recognized it until the countries were
liberated and they become independent states and they are members of NATO, and they are the next aim of Putin's aggression. And that was signaled by
Foreign Minister Lavrov with his t-shirt, you know, or what was it, a sweater with (INAUDIBLE), which in --
GOLODRYGA: I wanted -- Yes. USSR. And I wanted to -- I'm glad you brought that up, because aside from just being a cheap shot at coming before the
cameras wearing a former USSR sweatshirt, do you think he was actually sending a deeper message? It sounds like you do.
KOZYREV: Of course, yes. That's the clear message that they want, at least to start with, the whole Soviet Union. And that, of course, includes
Moldova and it includes (INAUDIBLE) three politic independent states, which are members of the NATO. But since NATO demonstrates importance in standing
against Putin's aggression by force, because he does not understand, does not respect anything but force.
So, he starts to think that NATO would probably eat or swallow even taking of three Baltic States. But remember, that the Soviet Union had also a so-
called socialist camp that is a zone of its domination (ph). And that zone included Poland and many other countries, which probably now have to start
preparing the maps, how they would be piece, you know, like, sliced.
[13:25:00]
GOLODRYGA: Well, it was interesting that there wasn't a Polish delegation in Washington, though nonetheless, a unity really on strong display with
seven other leaders from the Western NATO members there speaking with President Trump and obviously standing in lockstep in defense of Ukraine.
On the note of territorial swaps and giving up land and the significance of giving up both Luhansk and Donetsk, it was interesting to read in the
Financial Times today that it wasn't just President Zelenskyy making a case for President Trump on this issue, it was the European leaders who, quote,
"likened giving away the remainder of the Donetsk region to Trump giving away Eastern Florida." According to two people familiar with the matter,
they added that the U.S. president was struck by that analogy. Do you think that that was an important point to make by European allies, that this
isn't just a about territory, that there's a significance here to Ukraine keeping control over this area?
KOZYREV: Yes. I have only two points to clarify here. Why -- Florida what -- there is Alaska, which completely fits into potent definition of the
territories he wants to take back. That's his language. And Alaska was once part of a territory of the Russian empire. So, Putin pledges allegiance, so
to say, to Russian empire and to the Soviet Union. So, there is a much more adequate, so to say, candidate.
And second, the European countries are doing good diplomatic job. They are speaking, to my mind, reasonable things. But the problem is that those --
especially those countries which were represented in the White House recently, they are powerful countries. They're great powers with the
nuclear -- two of them nuclear weapon powers. And industrially, all of them -- each of them is either equal or much more powerful than Russia.
So, instead of talking and instead of lying, I would very much suggest that those leaders stay on the ground and work hard to translate their economic
vehicle, even moral power into weapons that they could give to Ukraine to protect them, not only Ukraine, but them. And so-called assurances or, you
know, safeguards, they don't work.
GOLODRYGA: Do you think when Vladimir Putin hears that President Trump is now open to security guarantees not boots on the ground in Ukraine, perhaps
once the fighting stops, but aerial assault and intelligence, more weapons, do you think he takes that seriously? Is that a deterrent for him?
KOZYREV: No, I don't think so. You know, he's spoiled by empty threats. You remember the previous administration spoke of devastating consequences
and all that. So, first time it's 100th first time that the west comes -- or the United States come out with threats which probably could be serious
threats if they were followed by real steps, you know, but they never followed by anything but half movement, you know, very weak following of
those threats. And he is used to that. So, why would he take 101st, if not 1001st threat seriously?
GOLODRYGA: And lastly, President Trump also says that that there maybe has sort of a setup meeting between President Zelenskyy and President Putin
place. I don't know what that really means, sort of. But what is the likelihood in your view that we will see a meeting between these two
leaders anytime soon?
[13:30:00]
KOZYREV: Well, it's difficult to say, but my perception right now, my assessment of those meetings, whatever meeting is that is more or less like
theatrics, diplomatic theatrics. You know, diplomacy is very good. And words in diplomacy matter, but only if they are substantiated. If they are
backed by actions. We come to what we said -- I said earlier that all those threats and all those talks and all those meetings, if they are not
followed or better if the real actions, especially military actions, not necessarily boots on the ground by weapons to Ukraine, that should precede
all that. Otherwise, Putin just takes it like a theater.
GOLODRYGA: Andrei Kozyrev, good to see you. Thank you so much. I give the correct pronunciation of your name. I give credit to my parents for raising
me to speak Russian in their household. I was born in Moldova, one of those countries you mentioned in the crosshairs right now. I'm sure they will be
happy to hear that you noticed I pronounced your name correctly. Thank you so much. It is good to see you.
KOZYREV: Thank you, Bianna. Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Well, so as world leaders in Washington discuss the conditions for peace in Ukraine, there was a tentative push towards peace in the
Middle East. Qatari and Egyptian officials are awaiting Israel's response after Hamas agreed to a new ceasefire proposal. But the deal is reported to
be the same as U.S. Envoy Steve Witkoff fell apart in July.
Now, it comes as mediators attempt to revive talks ahead of Israel's planned assault on Gaza City. But will it be enough to stop the fighting
and secure the release of the hostages and bring an imminent and lasting into the war?
CNN International Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson joins me now from Jerusalem. Nic, we're seeing more and more pressure now on Prime Minister
Netanyahu, that massive turnout for those protests. The other day, some 400,000 Israelis taking to the streets. On the other hand, you have
pressure from the far-right members of his coalition as well, and now Hamas appearing to be more receptive to this deal. How serious are we and how
close are we to perhaps a deal on the table now being accepted by both sides?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Well, Hamas came under a lot of pressure from the Egyptian and Qatari negotiators to agree to this
essential the Witkoff plan of a few weeks ago. And it released of a partial number of hostages, 10 living, 18 bodies of hostages, according to Hamas.
But this would be over a 60-day period. Very much like the pre-Witkoff deal.
Now, what we're hearing from the prime minister's office, or more broadly government officials, is that the terms of what they want right now is a
release of all the hostages. And they're prioritizing defeating Hamas. And therefore, the priority of a military offensive on Gaza City is also high
on the agenda.
The negotiators, Egypt and Qatar, are really hoping that this is a platform, a springboard, this sort of partial deal to get to the complete
deal that the Israeli government says that it wants. Now, we haven't had a clear answer yet from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu about his response
to what Hamas is agreeing to. We have, however, all the hostage families have, however, heard from Gal Hirsch, who is the hostage negotiator, and he
said, look, there is a lot that is going on behind the scenes. We can't talk about it because it is sensitive. And really sort of giving the
impression along with the fact that the prime minister hasn't spoken that the government's not rushing in to making a public statement about this
yet.
So, if things are moving, I think we can say they're moving slowly and that's really being optimistic at the moment.
GOLODRYGA: So many people desperate for this war to come to an end, for the hostages to come home, for relief for the civilians there in Gaza.
Meantime, Nic, we know that Hamas has been named as the party's new names to the United Nations annual report on conflict related sexual violence.
What more do we know about this report released by the U.N. this morning?
[13:35:00]
ROBERTSON: Yes, the U.N. had a special investigator looking into these allegations of Hamas' use of sexual violence in a conflict environment. And
a clear and convincing evidence is what the U.N. report says, that at multiple locations, at multiple times, there is evidence that Hamas was
using sexual violence at multiple locations on October 7th, either completely naked, mostly women or naked from the waist down, mostly women
were discovered often with their hands tied, often shot, killed on the spot where the brutality happened.
And for this reason, at these multiple different locations, the music festival, the road, some of the kibbutzim as well where people were trying
to escape to, this is why the U.N. is now pointing at Hamas and saying there is this clear convincing evidence that they were involved in this
brutality.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Nic Robertson reporting live for us from Jerusalem. Thank you so much. And coming up for us, Hong Kong's landmark national
security trial enters its final stretch. Detained pro-democracy media tycoon Jimmy Lai faces life in prison if convicted. We hear from his son
and his lawyer after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Welcome back. Closing arguments for Hong Kong's controversial national security trial have begun. These hearings will determine the fate
of media tycoon Jimmy Lai, whose detention since 2020 has been internationally condemned. President Trump vowed Thursday to save Lai, even
if China's Xi Jinping wouldn't be, quote, "thrilled."
An outspoken critic of Beijing, the 77-year-old founded the now defunct pro-democracy newspaper, Apple Daily. Lai faces life imprisonment for
collusion with foreign forces and sedition if convicted, charges he strongly denies.
Lai's son Sebastien has been desperately campaigning for his release, fearing for his father's deteriorating health, which delayed proceedings
last week. I spoke with Sebastien and Jimmy Lai's international legal representative, Keelen Gallagher ahead of the trial.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Caoilfhionn and Sebastien, thank you so much for taking the time to join us. Caoilfhionn, let me start with you. Jimmy Lai, as we know,
is facing charges under Beijing's National Security Law, along with fraud and unauthorized assembly. We have closing arguments starting this week.
What should we expect from the court?
CAOILFHIONN GALLAGHER, LAWYER FOR JIMMY LAI: Well, what Jimmy Lai is facing is a show trial under a law which should not exist and which has
been widely condemned internationally, including by U.N. experts, the U.S. government, the U.K. government, the Canadian government, the Australians,
the European Parliament, and the European Union.
So, I'm afraid what we're seeing play out here is the end of a show trial, which is dragged on over a long period of time. And what we now want to see
is the International Community holding the Hong Kong authorities to account and ensuring that this farse is brought to an end and Jimmy Lai is released
as soon as possible and can return to his family.
GOLODRYGA: We know what these charges he's facing up to life in prison. We should note that the Hong Kong government has emphasized time and again
that as a legal proceedings involving Lai Chee-ying are still ongoing, it is inappropriate for any person to comment on the details of the case. Yes.
[13:40:00]
GALLAGHER: May I just comment very briefly on that because I'm afraid that's a very one-sided approach, which has been taken. Because what's said
by the Hong Kong authorities and by Beijing repeatedly is whenever there's criticism from international bodies of what's happening in Hong Kong under
the national security law and the way in which Jimmy Lai is being targeted, they say that it's inappropriate to comment.
But at the same time, they routinely call him a notorious anti-China element and they condemn him as guilty before the process has ended. So,
it's very one-sided, the approach that they take there, and we shouldn't dance to that tune.
GOLODRYGA: Caoilfhionn, are you surprised with the length of this trial, how long it's been ongoing?
GALLAGHER: I'm afraid I'm not. I mean, what we've essentially seen so far with Jimmy Lai's case has been him facing charges under the national
security law, which essentially meant to conspiracy to commit journalism. So, under the national security law, dissent has essentially been
criminalized and Jimmy Lai has been targeted for running a newspaper, for exercising internationally protected rights, and for standing up for
democratic values, which the world holds dear.
And one of the tricks that we've seen happen across the world in these cases where journalists have been targeted over the last number of years is
foot dragging and procedural delays. And really, what we've seen happen in Jimmy Lai's case is similar to what we've seen happen in Maria Ressa's case
in the Philippines, Jose Ruben Zamora's case in Guatemala, and other cases. So, it's part and parcel of the delay. The delay is part and parcel of the
attempt to ensure that the world is silenced and waits.
And what we're very worried about here is the risk of Jimmy Lai, 77, a remarkable man, dying behind bars for being a journalist. And the longer
this process drags on and the longer that the International Community feels that they should wait until the end of the process before taking robust
action, and we are risking this man dying in prison.
GOLODRYGA: Right. Because the trial was meant to last about 80 days, but instead, has dragged on for months. Sebastien, you haven't seen or spoken
to your father in nearly five years. Is that correct?
SEBASTIEN LAI, JIMMY LAI'S SON: That's correct because I speak out on his behalf, it's not safe for me to go back to Hong Kong.
GOLODRYGA: So, what has it been like to hear his voice throughout this trial?
S. LAI: So, unfortunately, I haven't heard of -- I haven't had any recordings from the trial. But I've heard people speak about how he was on
the stand. And though visibly he is more frail, older, you know, he spends less four years, almost five years now in solitary confinement.
Immensely and spiritually, he is strong. You know, he knows that he did the right thing. He knows that in standing up for freedom and standing up for a
free press and staying in Hong Kong and defending his colleagues and other pro-democracy protestors that that was the right thing to do. And, you
know, I'm incredibly proud of him and I think he knows that the world is watching and that he is -- that his courage is inspiring.
GOLODRYGA: You mentioned his courage. I'd like to play sound for our viewers from an interview that he gave to CNN Anna Coren, I believe back in
2020. Here's what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY LAI, DETAINED HONG KONG MEDIA MOGUL: All they have to do is to make sure that I'm so scared that I leave. Well, just that miserable thinking
because I'm not so stupid to leave, to disgrace myself, to discredit Apple Daily and to undermine the solidarity of the pan democratic movement. I
don't think one's life is for himself. You have to think beyond yourself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Your father said that just before the national security law went into effect. Can you just describe to our viewers what Hong Kong had
meant to your father and why he decided to stay?
S. LAI: My father arrived in Hong Kong when he was 12 as a child refugee from Communist China. And I think the contrast made him understand how
important freedom is. And he -- with those freedoms, he built a life for himself, a very good life. But I think he never forgot that the most
important thing was that freedom.
And so, he spent his life to dedicated the last 30 years campaigning for freedom, using a newspaper as a -- as you would say, a torch on a light
next to the truth. And for him, you know, 60 years after that day when he landed in the ports of Hong Kong, and he, again, had to face the
authoritarian regime that he ran from as a child.
[13:45:00]
And you know, I think at that point he realized that he has so much more to lose, but he has so much more to protect as well. And he stayed. He stayed
to protect these beliefs. He stayed to protect these principles. And -- you know, and I think we are really at an impasse now where he is in jail for
his courage and the Hong Kong and Chinese government has to decide whether they will kill this man who has given everything that he has to -- for the
good of this place that took him in.
GOLODRYGA: Caoilfhionn, as we noted, he is facing multiple charges related to that national security law. He's accused of conspiring to collude with
foreign forces and conspiracy to publish seditious material. Additionally, he faces charges of fraud and unauthorized assembly. Lai denies conspiring
with foreign forces and publishing seditious material. Walk us through what these charges are based on in your view.
GALLAGHER: So, he's actually already been convicted for peaceful assembly for a number of charges related to peaceful assembly, and he is already
served sentences for those. They've been widely internationally condemned, including by the expert body, the United Nations Working Group on Arbitrary
Detention. He's also received a sentence, a conviction and sentence for fraud, which relates to alleged violation of a lease. Again, that's been
widely internationally condemned, including by the U.N. working group on Arbitrary Detention. So, there are convictions he's already had.
And he's now facing the most serious charges of all. So, under the National Security Law and under the Colonial-era sedition laws, and really there's
two issues here, the first is simply his newspaper, Apple Daily. So hugely successful newspaper, which was a real beacon in the region and an
independent voice in the region. And he's been charged with a series of offenses, which relates simply to his journalism.
So, to publishing opinion pieces which stand up to Beijing and speak truth to power and for running a newspaper with an opinion, which differed to
Beijing's opinion. And then secondly, he's also charged, as you've said, with collusion with foreign forces, and that relates to him raising human
rights concerns about what was happening in Hong Kong with politicians around the world, human rights bodies, and others.
And just to be clear, what we're seeing in his case, it's not just me saying it or Sebastien saying it, the International Community is united in
condemning what's happening to him in Hong Kong. He's been facing lawfare, in essence. So, weaponization of the law in an attempt to silence him and
many lesser individuals would've been silenced.
But as you've heard in his own words, he felt he had to stay put and stand up for his people and for his values and his beliefs, and now it's time the
International Community stands up for him.
GOLODRYGA: We have to say that the Hong Kong government's response is this, Hong Kong is taking law enforcement actions based on evidence and
strictly in accordance with the law in respect of the acts of the persons or entities concerned, which have nothing to do with their political
stance, background or occupation. Everyone charged with a criminal offense will receive a fair trial.
And, Sebastien, you said, previously that you believe perhaps President Trump might push for your father's release. Have you heard anything more
along those lines? Have you heard anything from the U.S. government in terms of your father's case since the president took office again January?
S. LAI: So, President Trump has said on multiple occasions publicly that he will secure my father's release, and we're incredibly grateful for that.
We've always been grateful for the incredible support that we've had in the U.S. It does give us an incredible -- a lot of hope.
You know, I think now it is not just about releasing him, seeing him free, it's about saving his life. Is a -- at his age, given the conditions that
he's in, given the foot dragging in his trials and, you know, he could unfortunately pass away at any point.
GOLODRYGA: Sebastien, your father is in solitary confinement, isolated, that the Hong Kong government says that is his choice and preference and
that he is treated according to the law. How would you describe how he's being treated right now and what are some of your biggest concerns?
S. LAI: So, my father is turning 78 this year. Look, solitary confinement is a form of torture. From (INAUDIBLE) hasn't asked for it, and it'd be
illogical to do so. But that's -- that sort of glances over the greater point. The greater point is that my father should have not -- never been in
jail in the first place. That, you know, we're five years in and his trial still hasn't finished. That there's been multiple sham charges brought
against him. His colleagues have been arrested. There's now allegations of tortured witnesses.
[13:50:00]
I mean, the amount of damage that the Hong Kong government has done to their own legal system is actually insane to watch. You know, I think we've
gotten to the point where now my father could very well die in jail.
You know, it goes up to 30, 40 degrees in Hong Kong during the summers. You can imagine someone, a 77-year-old in a concrete box, essentially in those
heat (ph). He is essentially baking in there. And I don't see why it's beneficial for Hong Kong or China to see him die in jail. So, he must be
released immediately.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, I can only imagine how difficult this is for you. Caoilfhionn, we know that Beijing stepped in to prevent Jimmy Lai's
preferred attorney from representing him. And I know that you yourself have been on the receiving end of multiple threats, targeting your family,
yourself, your colleagues, you've been surveilled. What has this process been like for you and why do you remain steadfast in defending Jimmy Lai?
GALLAGHER: Well, what -- I'm afraid what we're now seeing is despite the fiction of one country two systems, we're seeing the Beijingification of
Hong Kong. And Hong Kong is now a very, very different place to what it was 10 years ago. So, having been quite high in the league tables for press
freedom and for civil society, it's now languishing towards the bottom of those leak tables, and that's internationally documented.
And really, what's been happening to Sebastien simply for being a son, speaking out for his father or to me, simply as a lawyer representing my
client, it is a symptom of what Hong Kong has become. And every time I'm targeted for working on this case, and I know Sebastien feels the same way,
it really is a reminder of what's at stake for my client and for Sebastien's father, for Jimmy Lai himself.
Jimmy Lai has now spent almost a half a decade behind bars for being a journalist and for standing up for internationally protected values. He
should not have spent a day in jail as the U.N. has made clear. He's in a situation where at 77 and diabetic, his life is at risk. And just to be
clear, as a matter of international law solitary confinement, which lasts more than 14 days, can amount in human degrading treatment and can tip over
into torture. And Jimmy Lai has now spent over 1,600 days in solitary confinement.
And the evidence base is very clear that when you have someone in solitary confinement, particularly when they're elderly, and particularly when
they're diabetic, it massively increases the risk of morbidity. So, the longer he spends in prison, the more we're risking having a situation, as
China's had before with Nobel Peace Prize winner Liu Xiaobo, they are risking this man dying in prison. It's now time for him to be released and
for this process to be brought to an end. Enough is enough.
GOLODRYGA: We, of course, will continue to cover this case and story as well. Caoilfhionn and Sebastien, thank you so much for your time. We really
appreciate it.
S. LAI: Thanks for having me.
GALLAGHER: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: The Hong Kong government has been critical of media coverage of the resumption of the trial, and maintains that Lai has been treated
fairly. Telling CNN all cases concerning offense, endangering national security will be handled in a fair and timely manner by the law
enforcement, prosecution and judicial authorities. And the time taken between the institution of prosecution and the completion of trial of each
case depends on a multitude of factors. The government says it will safeguard the rights and freedoms enjoyed by Hong Kong people in accordance
with the law at the same time. And adds that Lai has all along been receiving suitable treatment and care in prison, and he is insured an
environment with good ventilation as well as appropriate and timely medical support.
Lastly, the government says Friday that Lai has received daily medical checkups and was also examined by a specialist at least twice this month to
address ongoing health concerns, calling his care adequate and comprehensive and without objection from him or his legal counsel.
Additionally, a professional medical team is on standby to address any emergencies.
And finally, for us tonight, a beauty pageant first. Ms. Palestine is set to compete in Miss Universe 2025, making Nadeen Ayoub the first woman to
represent the Palestinian people in the annual competition. She took to her Instagram to explain what the moment meant to her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NADEEN AYOUB, MISS PALESTINE: At a time when the world's eyes are on her homeland, I carry this role with deep responsibility. It's more than a
title, it's a platform to speak up for the people of Palestine, especially our women and children. We are more than our struggle. We are women with
dreams, talents, and a powerful voice to offer the world. This journey is for every single girl who dares to dream beyond the headlines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[13:55:00]
GOLODRYGA: Ayoub will join more than 130 fellow contestants in Bangkok, Thailand this November to vie for the coveted crown.
And that is it for us tonight. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can
always catch us online, on our website and all-over social media. Thank you so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
