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Amanpour
Interview with "My Undesirable Friends" Director Julia Loktev; Interview with Russian Journalist and "My Undesirable Friends" Co-Director Anna Nemzer; Interview with Chatham House Senior Fellow for Latin America Christopher Sabatini; Interview with Musician and Actor Grace Jones, Interview with Grammy Award-Winning Violinist and Edinburgh International Festival Festival Director Nicola Benedetti. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired August 20, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
60,000 reservists are being called up in Israel ahead of the planned takeover of Gaza City, Paula Hancocks reports. Then, "My Undesirable
Friends," a new documentary exploring Russia's brutal crackdown on free speech. I speak with director Julia Loktev and journalist Anna Nemzer.
Also, ahead, Bolivia swings right into its general election, the latest Latin American country to reject left-wing politics. Regional expert
Christopher Sabatini will be weighing in. Plus, with the Edinburgh Festival in full swing, we look back at my conversation with its director, the
Grammy winning violinist, Nicola Benedetti.
Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
We begin in Israel where the military is calling up more than 60,000 army reservists ahead of the planned takeover and occupation of Gaza City.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says this new escalation is to secure the release of the remaining hostages and destroy Hamas.
Ganza City is one of the most densely populated areas of the enclave, and officials there are calling for international intervention, fearing what
will likely be the forced displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian civilians, many of whom have already been displaced many times
over.
This as Qatari and Egyptian officials continue to push forward a diplomatic route out of the war, and are currently awaiting Israel's response to their
new ceasefire deal, which Hamas agreed to on Monday. But with no end in sight yet to the conflict for those living in the rubble of what was once
Gaza's biggest city, this next phase is a terrifying prospect, as CNN's Paula Hancocks reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Gaza City is more like a tent city these days. Buildings that are still standing are damaged. Some
appear dangerously close to collapse. But even this scene of ruin is now changing.
Montasser Abu Al Sadeq (ph) is one of many packing up his makeshift home, planning to flee Gaza City with whatever he and his family can carry ahead
of a planned Israeli invasion.
Everyone is scared, he says. People are waiting for a statement from the Israelis to evacuate the area. It could come any minute.
Israel's security cabinet approved plans earlier this month to expand the war and seize the city. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu claiming it is
the best way to end the war. It is a plan that has been met with international condemnation and warnings from the United Nations that it
could trigger another calamity in Gaza.
The prospect of yet another forcible move seems almost impossible for some. Rima Al Masri's (ph) husband son were injured during the war. With no money
for transport, she does not know how to move them along with her young daughters.
We don't know what to do, she says. Life is destroyed and living is unbearable.
As a Mohamed Dabo (ph) bakes bread for her family of 10, she says we'll have to adapt again to find the basics like water. If they move us, things
will get even harder.
The U.N. says over 86 percent of Gaza is already a under displacement orders or falls within Israeli militarized zones. Any attempt to force
hundreds of thousands more into an ever-shrinking area would be devastating. Israeli strikes have been intensifying around Gaza City over
recent weeks.
19-year-old Mira Abu Amer says the shelling was on the outskirts of town, but sounds closer since Monday. She describes how she calms her young
brother.
MIRA ABU AMER, GAZA RESIDENT: Don't be scared, Karim. This won't be the first or last time you hear that sound. It's far away. They won't do
anything, so don't worry. Just go to sleep now. But deep down I know those are just empty words to say to a kid his age. He shouldn't have to get used
to this.
HANCOCKS (voice-over): A continuing heat wave in the territory is also adding to the misery hindering the daily hunt for food and water. As Gaza
City waits for Israel's military to take over, some displaced residents point out there's nothing left to occupy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And Paula Hancocks joins me now from Abu Dhabi. Paula, the IDF is already saying that they've begun operations in surrounding villages,
districts outside of Gaza City, and there's reporting of the prime minister is set to approve of this new, bigger plan to take over Gaza City itself in
perhaps the coming hours, maybe even tomorrow.
[13:05:00]
What are you hearing in terms of the prospects that may still remain for a ceasefire hostage deal?
HANCOCKS (on camera): Well, Bianna, we've heard just in the last hour or so from the Israeli military itself saying that they have started those
initial plans going into Gaza City. As you mentioned, 60,000 reservists being called up. That will make the total number of reservists to 120,000,
and that is apart from the regular soldiers that are fighting in Gaza. So, it is a significant escalation after almost two years of war.
Now, the Israeli military saying that they have secured the outskirts of Gaza City. As you heard there many within Gaza City very scared about what
comes next. And on the sidelines, we're also hearing that earlier in the week Hamas did agree to the latest proposal of the ceasefire agreement. It
is according to a diplomat versed in these negotiations, 98 percent similar to what the Israelis had agreed to just a month ago.
So, we haven't heard from Israel though when it comes to this particular latest proposal. One Israeli official telling CNN that they favor all of
the hostages being released at the same time, rather than this temporary 60-day ceasefire for 10 living hostages, 18 deceased hostages, which
appeared to be the framework for the deal at this point. So, it's really a dual track at this point.
We know that Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, will have a meeting, a security cabinet meeting tomorrow on Thursday to finally approve
the seizure and the occupying of Gaza City, which appears really to be underway already.
And on the other side, you have the mediators, Qatar and Egypt, desperately trying to secure some kind of ceasefire before that operation goes ahead.
Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: In the meantime, Paula, this is coinciding with Israel granting final approval for controversial settlements to be built in the West Bank.
Tell us more about what these settlements would entail and the timing of this happening right now.
HANCOCKS: Yes, Bianna. This is significant. This is a settlement plan that the Israeli government or at least far-right elements of the Israeli
government have had in hand for decades. And for decades, they've been on hold. Because of the intense international condemnation and opposition to
them. What this will mean, this E1 settlement plan is that Jerusalem will be attached to a settlement, a significant settlement just east of
Jerusalem, which effectively means the West Bank will be cut in half.
So, it will mean any future Palestinian State would not be contiguous, it would not be connecting. It chops the West Bank in half. It also makes it
very difficult, in fact, virtually impossible for the Palestinians to have a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem, which is what they have
consistently been calling for.
Now, there has been international condemnation. Significantly though, the condemnation has not come from the U.S. when it comes to this settlement
plan, which it has with previous administrations. They have said, the Trump administration, they want to see stability in the West Bank, but they have
not condemned it outright like the United Kingdom, the E.U., and other countries.
It is a significant bold move by Bezalel Smotrich, a far-right element of Benjamin Netanyahu's coalition. And he did have quite a staggering
statement to say, which is, quote, "The Palestinian State is being erased from the table, not with slogans, but with actions," making it very clear
that he's doing this to prevent any future Palestinian State, saying it is also in response to the fact that there is a wave of countries that are now
signaling their intentions and announcing their intentions to recognize a Palestinian State. So, this is a significant move by the far-right in
Israel. Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And those provocative statements coming today from Bezalel Smotrich, the finance minister. Paula Hancocks, thank you so much.
All right. Coming up, the Kremlin's cracked down on free speech. I speak to the filmmakers behind a new documentary, exploring the stark reality of
journalists operating in Putin's Russia.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:10:00]
GOLODRYGA: Welcome back. NATO military leaders are meeting today to discuss security guarantees for Ukraine, but Russian Foreign Minister
Sergey Lavrov calls it a, quote, "path to nowhere without Russia." Now, this comes as the White House pushes ahead with plans for a meeting between
presidents Putin and Zelenskyy. A meeting the Kremlin has yet to confirm.
Despite a busy diplomatic week, the world leaders pushing for peace and Moscow's and Kyiv's ideas of a constructive agreement remain vastly
different. Meanwhile, Russia's close partner, China, is keeping a close eye with experts believing Beijing is looking for cracks in western unity, and
potentially for an opening to launch an invasion of its own. Will Ripley explains.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILL RIPLEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): As U.S. President Donald Trump poses for talks with Ukraine's president, China's
leaders see something very different, opportunity.
Observers of Chinese leader Xi Jinping say, what's at stake is nothing less than reshaping the world order, perhaps even tilt the balance of power
toward Beijing.
When it comes to Russia's war in Ukraine, China's official position remains objective and impartial, even promoting peace talks. But on China's tightly
controlled social media, comments like these are meant to cast doubt on America's traditional alliances, and they're being allowed to go viral.
Trump doesn't give a damn about Europe. Trump loves Putin so much, he did everything he could to become president just to protect him and keep him
safe.
A popular pro-Chinese government researcher predicts cracks in the Western alliance will continue to deepen. NATO's role will be weakened. The E.U.
and Japan will continue to be marginalized, and Ukraine is destined to be the biggest loser.
All of it rattling nerves here in Taiwan. A small island claimed but never controlled by China's communist leaders.
VANESSA CHEN, TAIPEI RESIDENT: It does make me feel a bit worried, like I cannot predict what Trump is going to do. And I think compared to the
Ukraine situation, I do feel like we are like one of the items on the list that can be traded for Trump's -- for his own good.
RIPLEY (voice-over): I do worry that Taiwan's security will be traded away, he says, but I also believe there will be other ways for Taiwan to
protect itself.
Trump claims President Xi personally promised not to invade this island democracy, at least while Trump's in office.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: He told me, I will never do it as long as you're president. President Xi told me that. And I said, well, I appreciate
that. But he also said, but I am very patient and China is very patient.
RIPLEY (voice-over): Taiwan's government says it's continuously committed to improving its self-defense capabilities. Recently holding its largest
ever military drills, putting billions U.S.-supplied weapons on full display.
Chinese commentators certainly took note when Trump cozied up to Russian strongman Vladimir Putin in Alaska, saying NATO's role is shrinking and the
west is fracturing, something Xi Jinping may have predicted even before Trump's reelection.
We dug up this Russian state media footage from the Kremlin more than two years ago. Xi is on camera telling Putin, change is coming that hasn't
happened in 100 years. And we are driving this change together. The world is bracing for what comes next.
RIPLEY: Observers say Beijing is definitely watching for an opening here. Trump's warm approach to Putin could weaken unity between the U.S. and
Europe, some fear, and that is something that China would welcome. It could give Xi Jinping more room to maneuver Here in Taiwan. Beijing has vowed to
take this island democracy by force if necessary.
Will Ripley, CNN, Taipei.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[13:15:00]
GOLODRYGA: Now, inside Russia. The Kremlin has also been waging war on free speech. Since the invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Moscow has escalated
its suppression of all forms of public descent, banning independent media outlets, like the broadcaster TV Rain, which was declared a foreign agent.
Director Julia Loktev was in Russia just months before and found herself among resilient journalists navigating the heavy hand of Putin's crackdown.
The iPhone footage she shot is now the documentary, "My Undesirable Friends." Julia Loktev is joining me alongside journalists and co-director
Anna Nemzer. Welcome both of you.
This is a fascinating documentary. It is over five hours long, and I have to say it is riveting. And just watching what's transpired in just a short
span of time in Russia from a journalist's eye is something I would recommend everyone watch to get a sense of what is going on in Putin's
Russia today.
Julia, let me start with you. You started filming this in late 2021. A big moment happened in early 2021 with the return of Alexey Navalny, the
opposition leader to Moscow. And then, we saw a wave of mass protests that had been occurring for a number of years in Russia, really kickoff after
that. And you start by telling viewers, the world you're about to see no longer exists. Talk about that world in Russia in 2021 when you began
filming this documentary.
JULIA LOKTEV, DIRECTOR, "MY UNDESIRABLE FRIENDS": So, when I started the film, I obviously had absolutely no idea that I would end up capturing
history as it happened. In the summer of '21, late summer, Russia started declaring all these journalists, media, but also individual journalists as
foreign agents.
And I reached out to Anna who was hosting a show on TV Rain, which was Russia's last remaining independent TV channel. It was still operating in
Russia at the time, which is absolutely unimaginable now. And I said, something is happening here when people are having to mark themselves as
not belonging to the society. It's like imagine you were hosting the show and every time before your segment you would have to say pretty much some
very legalistic version of, this is brought to you by a foreign agent, and then every guest pretty much that was on your show would have to be
introduced as, oh, this is Julia Loktev, foreign agent and Anna Nemzer, a foreign agent. And this is what a lot of TV Rain programs started to look
like then because so many people were very quickly getting declared foreign agents.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, inoagent in Russian. And I have to say, watching TV Rain was my lifeline into what was transpiring in Russia at the time. I had my
CNN monitor and then the TV Rain monitor, and I was glued to reports from Anna, you, and all of your brave correspondents there and colleagues who
have all since fled the country. And even starting -- and I don't know if we have this video, even starting with a disclaimer that you were forced to
put up because TV Rain was one of the most watched new networks in Russia at one point.
It was the network of optimism. A new generation of Russians were getting their news from this independent source, and all of the sudden, the
crackdowns began. And you talk about that very openly and honestly, Anna, as you are filmed throughout this documentary about not knowing what the
significance of all of these labels meant, and then living in fear of God forbid for forgetting to introduce yourself or a guest as one of those
inoagent, foreign agents, because -- tell our viewers what the consequences could have been.
ANNA NEMZER, RUSSIAN JOURNALIST AND CO-DIRECTOR, "MY UNDESIRABLE FRIENDS": You know, about the consequences, there is several measurements, several
legal consequences and it's really difficult to describe them all. You could and you can end up in jail. In the end of the day, you can end up in
jail.
But I had to mention a few things. First of all, unfortunately, I have to mention that TV RAIN is not only foreign agent, but also undesirable
organization. And second, you know, you mentioned that it all happened all out of the blue. It was very suddenly, but unfortunately, it wasn't so
sudden, it was very much expected and predicted. We just didn't have courage and we couldn't maybe see it right before our eyes. But it really
was very much expected.
[13:20:00]
GOLODRYGA: I beg to differ. You had a lot of courage what you and your colleagues did every single day, going out to the streets, covering those
protests, making the decision to finally shut down as a network as opposed to following the continued clamp downs and the control over everything that
you broadcast that the state was dictating to you, that takes a lot of courage. So, first and foremost, you probably won't admit that, but I'm
telling you as a colleague, as a journalist from thousands of miles away, it was awe inspiring to see.
Julia, as you were filming this, and what you do so brilliantly is we know what ends up happening. We know that there is going to be a major war in
Ukraine that Vladimir Putin launches just months later. We know that sadly all of these journalists are forced to leave the country. And yet, you keep
us in suspense by bringing us into the personal lives of these journalists. Tell us who these people are. I mean, it's just -- it's quite stunning to
see how many of them are so young.
LOKTEV: Absolutely. But I want to piggyback kind of on what Anna said and what you said. On the one hand, people knew, but they didn't know exactly
what would happen. Everybody -- when I was filming months, I mean up until the night before the full-scale invasion, everybody thought it was
absolutely impossible. No matter how inevitable it seems now.
So, we're watching people where we know what happens, but none of them have any idea that Russia will start a full-scale war in Ukraine. They're sort
of expecting a crackdown. Everybody kept saying, oh, we're going to experience Belarus 2.0. In other words --
NEMZER: Yes, like inside the country.
LOKTEV: Exactly. Like everyone thought the monster would come to eat them, not invade the neighboring country. And that's really important, I think.
Most of the journalists are incredibly young.
NEMZER: Not me. Still young, but --
GOLODRYGA: You're still young, Anna.
LOKTEV: Still young. Still young, Anna, but a lot of them are really like an early 20, mid-20s. They constantly refer to "Harry Potter" as a
framework for good and evil for understanding Russia. They watch "Emily in Paris." They, you know, talk about like some parallels to "Gossip Girl"
when someone gets arrested. I mean, they live in a world that seems very familiar and yet, what's happening to them is so incredibly unfamiliar to
us.
GOLODRYGA: And again, having watched Navalny's return, the protests afterwards, his arrest, his -- the continued coverage that you were able to
provide of his legal trials and going into courtrooms, and then ultimately leading up to the larger scale invasion in Ukraine.
Anna, as you were documented throughout the film, you talk about just living in a world where you're dealing with paranoia every single day, not
knowing if your app to pay your parking fee is not working because an app just doesn't work sometimes, or because your bank account was liquidated
and closed, right? Somebody knocking on a door at 6:00 a.m., people all of a sudden fear that FSB agents have come after you. It turns out someone
just knocked on the wrong door.
Just living a life where you never know where things stood and when you may have to flee the country. Explain to our viewers how you were able to do
that while also telling viewers in Russia real-time what was happening.
NEMZER: You know, the problem is, I can't describe it like a very straight experience because you live in a constant double thinking, because you --
from one point of view, you constantly, you know, like I described it, you know that something horrible is going to happen.
Having your experience as a historian, having this privilege to have the best parents in the world and being in constant conversations with them and
knowing the history and knowing what's going to happen, maybe not in details, maybe some things were just unimaginable, like the full-scale
invasion, I'm sorry.
But at the same time, you try to leave your -- like -- you to stick to your routine and you try to live your own life to raise your kids, to do your
job and so on. And having this hope, constantly having this hope. And as I remember, as another Russian independent journalist, Yevgenya Albats (ph),
once said to me, don't fell down before you get shot.
And so -- and it was like, no, it's not so horrible. There is a bunch of people, my colleagues, my friends that are -- which are still in the
country, they're doing their job, they're creating institutions, they're in resistance, and I want to be near them and they aren't leaving the country,
and so, maybe I won't leave the country and I will be here and I will just hope for something that I can describe.
[13:25:00]
Because as a historian, I don't have any hope and I see what's going to happen. And so, describing this experience, like something that can be like
decomposed and I can't describe it properly, like something, and yes, and it's important to mention that I can describe it as something that ended,
because at some point, it's still happening with me. I'm not in Russia, but the story isn't ended. I don't know how to live, how to think about that,
and it's a struggle every day actually. I don't hold -- I don't have like direct answers.
GOLODRYGA: No. And no one would expect you to. We don't know how this is going to end. You talk about how your family was forced during the '90s and
all the unrest in Russia to leave the country. And now -- and as you were being filmed, you and your colleagues were also finding yourselves in
similar positions. What's going to happen? Do -- are we really doing this again? Do I really need to think about relocating and immigrating to
another country just like my parents and my grandparents did?
Julia, it is interesting how this was all being spun by the Kremlin, because as we hear repeatedly, you know, there's a constitution in Russia,
there's a justice system in Russia, things are supposed to go according to the law. And you have experts, like you mentioned Yevgenya Albats. I know
Ikatrina Schulman (ph), another political scientist who has been on TV Rain for many, many years trying to make sense of what's happening.
And I think, Anna -- you caught Anna really capturing a catchphrase that Vladimir Putin uses quite regularly and has used when asked about some of
these new restrictions and clamp downs. And he says, everything is happening within the framework of the law. And that sounds very legalese. I
believe he also has a law degree. But, Julia, from your perspective, just how the Kremlin itself was navigating this quick -- or slow creep towards
authoritarianism.
LOKTEV: Well, I think we see that in a lot of authoritarian regimes and Galena Arapava (ph) kind of actually makes a reference to, you know, Nazi
Germany, this was also within the framework of the law. And this constant reference to the law, finding bureaucratic workarounds, finding ways to
misuse and warp the law is, I think, a regular feature of autocratic regimes. And I think we're seeing that in many places now, that playbook
being adapted.
And I kind of want to go back to something that Anna said, which was great, that, you know, there's this moment in the film where Anna says, you know,
on the one hand, you don't want to get paranoid, but on the other hand, you really shouldn't get used to this, you know. This isn't normal. And to
remind yourself all the time that what's happening isn't normal, because there is that kind of normalization creep that starts to happen when
everything is happening within the framework of the law.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And there's a moment where Anna was talking about even going back to the invasion of Ukraine, how it wasn't just Kremlin talk, you
had advertisement from, I believe it was like a nanny service, right, in 2014 that said, oh, you don't want to hire Ukrainian nannies, you know,
they can't be trusted. Why don't you hire good old fashioned Russian nanny? I mean, that language was already being used and really propagated for many
years, even leading up to this major scale invasion in 2022.
I want to play a film -- a clip from the film of when we were discussing what it was like and how surreal it was to constantly introduce yourself
and your guests as a foreign agent, what that looked like on television.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): We continue out TV Rain marathon to support the petition against the foreign agents law.
SONYA GROYSMAN, HOST, "HI, YOU'RE A FOREIGN AGENT" PODCAST: I'm Sonya Groysman. I host the podcast "Hi, You're A Foreign Agent." And I'm declared
a foreign agent by the Russian Federation. And we're obligated to say this on this show. With me in the studio --
OLYA CHURAKOVA, HOST, "HI, YOU'RE A FOREIGN AGENT" PODCAST: Olya Churakova. I'm also declared a foreign agent. And host the podcast "Hi,
You're A Foreign Agent."
GROYSMAN: And today our guest is Danili Sotnikov, also a foreign agent.
DANILI SOTNIKOV: Yes. I'm also a foreign agent and now must always mention this
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're my first good friend foreign agent. The first.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stop saying this word next to us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anya, every person here came up to me and said, oh, hi, foreign agent. Hi, foreign agent." You know my actual name.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: I mean, it was, the only thing I could compare it to was, you know, when you first met a person, one of the few people, the first people
you found out had COVID, and it was such a strange anomaly that you have, first, you know, foreign agent and that became then a commonplace thing.
[13:30:00]
Anna, did you -- again, and you said you never knew it would get to this point, but once you were following the so-called rules, the arbitrary rules
that were changing almost daily, did you think that you still stood a chance to stay in Russia and tell the stories that you were so desperate to
get for your viewers to watch?
NEMZER: Again, it was the constant process of double thinking because all my -- not friends, but acquaintances, all my conversations in 2021 started
with the question where and when, where and when you're going to leave. Where you are going to go? What's your plan B? And I was like I was like
seeing the firewall party in my nightmares because I was, all this time, till February 24th, I was kind of hoping I won't have to, I was kind of
hoping I could stay somehow. And it was really a huge topic of my nightmares. I'm not exaggerating here.
But at the same time, you start understanding that you don't see any other options and you understand that, and you are just waiting, maybe you are
hoping for something to happen, like, I don't know, the black swans, I don't know whether I even believed in it. But this idea of community, this
was something that held us together. That made me still have some hope. This idea that many people are against this regime and they're working. And
again, they're creating institutions that was not the question that they all were nice, kind, clever people, they created institutions. They tried
to work like systematically.
And this idea that I can be a part of that, that helped me a little bit. And yes, I still don't deny my experience. I don't regret that I didn't
leave earlier. I can't regret it. It is what it is, but it was something that that gave me this hope, actually.
GOLODRYGA: Well, you and your colleagues, you know, you stood together and you left a country that you loved as patriots forced to do what you're
continuing to do outside of Russia and other countries. And it is telling that despite everything you've gone through, Julia, you also say that every
single person who you've covered for this film says this is all small problems given the war crimes being committed in Ukraine. But just let's be
honest, these are not small problems and it's really important that you're continuing all the work that you're doing.
Quickly, Julia, we are out of time. Where can people find this film?
LOKTEV: Right now, it's playing at Film Forum and we hope it will be rolled out in theaters across the U.S. and then coming to streaming. And
it's playing at a lot of international festivals.
GOLODRYGA: It is a must watch. Julia Loktev, Anna Nemzer, I learned a lot by following you every single day, I continue to learn a lot by following
and watching you and your colleagues do their reporting jobs. Really appreciate it.
NEMZER: Thank you.
LOKTEV: Thank you.
NEMZER: Thank you so much.
GOLODRYGA: And still to come for us, Latin America's left suffers another defeat. We look at Bolivia's historic shift to the right and what it means
for the region and the world after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:35:00]
GOLODRYGA: We turn out to Bolivia, which is the latest in a string of Latin American countries swinging to the right. As the region grapples with
economic turmoil, tensions with its neighbor and to the north and gang violence as well. In a historic defeat in this weekend's general election,
Bolivian voters brought an end to 20 years of left-wing rule in the country, choosing instead centrist Senator Rodrigo Paz and right-wing
former President Jorge Tuto Quiroga, who are now set to go head to head in a presidential runoff.
So, how did decades of socialists dominance come down from crashing down and what does it tell us about the direction of the region's politics as a
whole? Christopher Sabatini is a senior fellow. For Latin America at the Global Policy Institute, Chatham House, and joins me from London to discuss
what this means for Bolivia and the world.
Christopher, welcome to the program. So, how significant is it that Bolivia, after 20 years of left-wing rule under MAS is now headed to a
runoff between a centrist and a right-wing candidate?
CHRISTOPHER SABATINI, SENIOR FELLOW FOR LATIN AMERICA, CHATHAM HOUSE: It's important for a number of reasons. When Evo Morales, the previous
president, the founder of MAS, rose to national prominence, first as a leader of the Coca Growers Union, and then eventually was elected president
in 2005. He was sworn in 2006. Most people saw this as a fundamental change in Bolivia's party system.
Bolivia had many parties, but very few of them represent -- in fact, none of them really represented indigenous -- the majority indigenous
population. Evo Morales, although he doesn't speak Aymara, is an Aymara -- from Aymara ethnic group indigenous communities, he did represent the rural
population. And many people thought that this was going to completely remake Bolivian politics. And it did. At first, he came into power.
He -- following the examples of the President Hugo Chavez in Venezuela and the president of Ecuador, Rafael Correa. He quickly set out to rewrite the
constitution, acknowledging many of the rights of the indigenous populations and the Afro-descendant populations. But also, slowly over
time, what he started to do was consolidate power. He ran unsuccessfully for an unconstitutional third term in 2019. It was unsuccessful because it
was alleged at the time that he had attempted to steal the election by independent election observers, and he was forced into exile. He came back
in 2020 when his protege, Luis Arce was elected. Luis Arce was also of the MAS Party.
But then, quickly things went off the rails. For one, the country's economic woes worsened, inflation is expected to reach 30 percent this
year. Bolivia was a major gas exporter. In fact, he nationalized the gas heads and the gas company, but now, it's importing gasoline and diesel. So,
consequently, there are fuel shortages.
But also, there's just simply a sense of this was politics as usual. Even what allies was supposed to be a fresh new voice, a new way of doing
politics. But personalistic feuds, in fact, a feud with his protege, Luis Arce, and also accusations of rape. He is supposedly fathered a child by a
15-year-old follower of his, has led to real deep suspicions about Evo Morales, his moral core, as well as the meaning of the MAS within larger
Bolivian politics. So, now, we're seeing a shift back to the right and even to the center right with Tuto Quiroga.
So, it's a change. I don't know if this will last, but it's certainly an expression of people's rejection of MAS for the moment and the rejection of
MAS's failed economic policies. And basically, traditional patterns of cronyism and patronage.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And you spent that time brilliantly laying out so effectively for our viewers about the storied rise of Evo Morales and then
his fall right now where he is, again, as you noted, facing arrest charges for statutory rape. He's in hiding apparently in the Bolivian Amazon. And
both of these leading candidates said that if they were elected, they would arrest him.
Still, are you surprised at the implosion of the MAS Party as a whole? I believe that just looking at the polling data, it got just 3 percent of the
vote. Just barely enough to register.
SABATINI: Yes. There was -- the candidate was Eduardo del Castillo. He got 3.1 percent of the vote. Really unheard of. And it was unexpected. Even
protege -- another protege who had broken with the party, Andronico Rodriguez, he also didn't -- he didn't run under the MAS because it was a
liability. He also didn't do too well. So, that's clearly a shocker. They only got one seat in the Chamber of Deputies. This is a party that used to
dominate the Chamber of Deputies. So, yes, this was a mass rejection, not just of Eva Morales, but also the party.
[13:40:00]
There is one caveat though, Evo Moreles was prohibited from running in this election because of the Supreme Court, again, because of an
unconstitutional fourth term. But he did encourage his followers to either to face their ballots or vote in blank. And about 19 to 20 percent, 19
percent were defaced, another 1 percent or so were actually voted, were filed in blank. That indicates that, you know, even if some of those were
not necessarily in favor of Morales, they do indicate that he still has a significant base.
And he didn't get clearly as much as Paz, who got about 37 percent of the vote, 36, or Tuto Quiroga who got 27 percent of the vote. But it is not
insignificant, it's even more of course than del Castillo, the MAS standard bear in this case got.
So, he could still make noise. He's surrounded in this hideout that you mentioned, Bianna. He's still surrounded by armed supporters of his. So, I
don't think he's going to go quietly into the night.
GOLODRYGA: And you look at both of these two leading candidates, the fact that there's runoffs, obviously neither one of them got the majority of the
vote. What are the main differences between the two of them? How do you describe to viewers what policies of a centrist right of center candidate
versus a right-wing candidate? What were they selling to voters?
SABATINI: First of all, Rodrigo Paz is the son of a former president who came -- who'd formed actually a leftist party, a center leftist party in
the '80s. And he was -- had served as a senator. He sort of presented himself as a center left candidate. He had said that if any economic
reforms had to be put in place, he was going to negotiate them slowly. He had expressed some caution in approaching the international monetary fund
to ask for a bailout.
Whereas Jorge Quiroga, who served briefly as a president from 2001 to 2002 under former President Banzer who had to leave because of a cancer
diagnosis, who had been a dictator earlier in the 1970s. Tuto Quiroga has become very much a -- I wouldn't say an extreme right leader, but a very
much the face of the hard opposition to Morales, and he has really made a very clear case that he stands against the MAS. If Tuto Quiroga is elected
in the second round, which will be in October -- on October 19th, I would expect a much harder approach to trying to stomp out the MAS and his
parties in trying to arrest Evo Morales, where I think Paz would be much more accommodating, much more an attempting -- accommodate to create some
sort of soft landing in terms of fiscal adjustment that would be necessary.
GOLODRYGA: Taking a broader look at the region, which appears to be shifting right in general, is this something that you find notable as an
issue and a change in voter perspective and voter priorities for one country individually that just so happens to, as we're seeing this happen
in other Latin American countries, all relate to economic policies that aren't working for constituents, or do you see a broader trend here?
SABATINI: I think in part this is really a rejection of the MAS because of the failures of the last 20 years. But I do think this indicates not so
much a wholesale shift to the right that will be permanent in Latin America. What we've seen over the last couple election cycles in places
like Chile, Argentina, Brazil, and Colombia has been great amount of electoral volatility, precisely because whether the left or the right, they
failed to deliver on many of the demands that citizens have. And many of the complaints.
And what we saw, originally in the early 2000s, was a massive reduction in poverty and the growth of the middle class, much of the middle class has
now shrunk and sunk back into poverty. So, it's created a high level of frustration.
So, in Chile, we had a right-wing president, Pinera, then the left-wing president. Now, it looks like in the coming elections in Chile next year.
There will be a right-wing president in Colombia later this year. In Colombia, we saw a right-wing, left-wing, probably again, a right-wing
president. So, this is definitely a high-level of volatility, but definitely, in this particular electoral cycle, the right is on the march.
GOLODRYGA: How is Washington viewing this at the moment, specifically with the Trump administration openly embracing more of a Monroe Doctrine to try
to justify its interfering in domestic politics in Latin America? You have an example obviously in Brazil as well, where he's continuing to stand up
to -- or for Jair Bolsonaro, his former colleague and friend, good friend now. And also, Bukele, right, in El Salvador. The fact that he's now
sending three naval -- or three warships, I believe, to Venezuela, all in the name of fighting drug cartels. What does that tell you about how
Washington is viewing the politics in Latin America?
[13:45:00]
SABATINI: In a phrase, quite frankly, Bianna, with great glee. The Trump project goes beyond just America First or Make America Great Again. It's
sort of -- it's a broader global project. It's attempting to cultivate and support extreme right-wing leaders in many countries. You saw this, as you
mentioned, Jair Bolsonaro, a man who in 2023 attempted to stage a coup when he lost the election after declaring the election was illegitimate, despite
not having evidence -- any evidence to say so. In the Argentina, Javier Milei has really patterned himself on Donald Trump. Is famous for waving
around a chainsaw, saying that he was going to take on the state and slash spending. And it was a chainsaw also that he gifted, by the way, to Elon
Musk when he was in DOGE.
So, in all these cases -- and Javier -- I'm sorry, Noboa, in the case of Ecuador too has really sort of taken on this sort of rule of law, iron
fisted approach to crime in his country. This is very much in Trump's wheelhouse. And in both cases of the two remaining candidates heading into
the October election, Rodrigo Paz and Tuto Quiroga, both of them have said they are open to working with Donald Trump. They appreciate Donald Trump.
They want to work with the United States, which is something, by the way, Evo Morales do and nor did Luis Arce. They were very much aligned in the
China and also Venezuela camp.
And this movement, the MAS movement came to power right at the time when Hugo Chavez was elected in Venezuela, you had the consolidation of
dictatorial power by Daniel Ortega and Nicaragua. And for many of the Trump supporters, and including especially Marco Rubio, the secretary of state,
they see this as one of the first dominoes to go in what they hope will be the fall of Nicolas Maduro. And as you mentioned, they're clearly ramping
up pressure on Nicolas Maduro by parking if few battleships off the coast of Venezuela and doubling the bounty on his head to $50 million. But
they're also hoping with this, this will send a signal to Venezuela, to Nicaragua and to Cuba. And they may score somewhat of a hat trick here.
AMANPOUR: A lot happening in that part of the world. I'm glad we were able to focus on it with you. Christopher Sabatini, thank you so much.
And finally, a musical treat. Nicola Benedetti is a pioneering Grammy award-winning violinist. She's back again in her Native Scotland as a
festival director for the Edinburgh International Festival. Its first female director. Here's the taste of her talents.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Nicola Benedetti joined me just before her first year as festival director from our studio in London, alongside her famous violin.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: You recently began your tenure as director of the Edinburgh International Festival. It begins next week officially. You are the first
woman, and the first Scott to take this job. Talk about your vision for this new role.
NICOLA BENEDETTI, GRAMMY AWARD-WINNING VIOLINIST AND FESTIVAL DIRECTOR, EDINBURGH INTERNATIONAL FESTIVAL: Well, first of all, thank you so much
for having me. It has been really the role of a lifetime for me, an opportunity to really contribute to the whole cultural landscape of my home
country, of Scotland.
For me, being a violinist and a classical musician rooted in that art form. It's about preserving the sanctity and the beauty of these incredible art
forms that have taken centuries to build up and to preserve and to deepen, enrichen at the same time is being absolutely about communities, for
people, speaking directly to people, looking at how we can communicate directly our message to people.
And we are an International Festival. So, we do 300 performances over three weeks, invite nearly 2,000 artists from all over the world. And our message
really is one of absolute diversity, of perspective, diversity of life lived. I'm looking at that whole sort of mythologizing of the broad story
of humanity, which, as we all know, can be done so wonderfully and fully through the language of the arts.
GOLODRYGA: I know you have themed the program to the question of, where do we go from here? And the industry -- the whole world obviously coming back
from the pandemic and it's coming at a time when there is economic hardships, I know facing the music industry as well. How much of an impact
is this all having on your message? And do you get a sense that it is resonating this early in?
BENEDETTI: There is no question that is resonating because artists and audiences alike want to feel that they are a part of something that makes
an impact on people's lives. They want to feel they can participate in a conversation. And we all need something to look up to and a collective
dream, a collective hope.
[13:50:00]
Much of the terminology and sort of theming of this year's festival, of my first festival, was inspired by Dr. Martin Luther King's final book, "Where
Do We Go from Here: Chaos or Community?" And I think it is so poignant in that book where there's -- he talks about, after so much sort of
legislation and particular things have been put into the nation, but what actually exists inside us? What is our internal and more subtle and perhaps
less easy to control decisions that we make inside ourselves? And it's that component of what makes us who we are that, of course, the arts does speak
to.
And I always think if there's a moment where a perspective can be shifted or change for the better, surely, it's within an arts festival where every
perspective is portrayed.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And you are aiming for inclusivity, that is admirable. I'm just curious how you feel about going about attracting a younger generation
to specifically this genre of music?
BENEDETTI: Well, we have classical music. We have all sorts of music, actually. We have absolutely contemporary music, folk music, jazz music and
we have theater, we have opera, and we have dance. So, we have an incredibly eclectic presentation across all art forms.
I think that it's always a challenge when you are steadfast in the core of what it is you want to present. So, classical music as an example. How much
would you have to alter that for it to become on the stages of Glastonbury, for example. This art form in of itself has a historic component to it, but
it's also -- it's often longer, it can often last 45 minutes or an hour.
The most important thing for us to do is shift with the times in terms of environments, make sure that people feel absolutely welcome and that it can
become the ritual of the younger generation, that they can feel that the whole experience is absolutely for them, and that we want them there. And I
will tell you for certain, the older generation that do go to classical music concerts, they want to invite and welcome a multigenerational field
within the concert halls.
GOLODRYGA: Well, you certainly are a wonderful representative, an ambassador for pursuing this mission. How are you going to be balancing it
all as director and I would assume, I hope, your fans still hope that you will continue to perform as well.
BENEDETTI: Yes. It has been interesting year to try to balance these things, being on tour a lot, performing a lot, which takes an immense
amount of concentration, and it is a pressured environment and job. But it's -- there are all energy giving and energy feeding. I am excited -- as
excited and enthused and sort of obsessed with the role with the International Festival in Edinburgh as I am with playing the violin.
So, it's all about how you feel towards the thing that you are doing. And if it gives you that much energy, there is always a way to work it out. And
underneath it all, it is nothing short of a privilege.
GOLODRYGA: Well, before you take us off in a beautiful melody, a duet there with your colleague, I do want to get you to talk about what the
experience was for you. We've seen rave reviews, your performances at King Charles' Scottish coronation. You played "Farewell to Stromness," and that
is a much beloved Scottish melody. What was experience like for you?
BENEDETTI: Oh, the occasion is just -- I mean, there is no words for it, just the poignancy and the meticulousness and the -- I mean, we are talking
about a tradition of the International Festival being 76 years old, that is a tradition that goes back so -- I mean, hundreds and hundreds of years.
And I always think that there is something about the ceremonial act of something that is larger than our individual viewpoints, our individual
experiences, something that is focused on, me, me, me to something that is focused on a tradition that has lasted a long time. For me, I really savor
being a part of something ceremonial of that kind.
GOLODRYGA: Well, best of luck in your future endeavors. What a pioneer, you really are. At such, you know, an early stage, still, in your career. I
know you started as a young child. But here you are and you have many, many more years ahead of you. So, congratulations on all of your success thus
far. Best of luck with your future endeavors. And I'd like to invite guests to Geza to join you now in a duet that you will perform for us as we leave
the show.
BENEDETTI: Thank you so much. Thank you.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[13:55:00]
GOLODRYGA: A beautiful and wonderful musical farewell there from Nicola Benedetti and her collaborator.
Well, that is it for now. Thank you so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
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[14:00:00]
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