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Amanpour
Interview with Israeli Political Analyst and "The Crooked Timber of Democracy in Israel" Author Dahlia Scheindlin; Interview with "Here Comes the Sun" Author Bill McKibben; Interview with Artist Amy Sherald. Aired 1- 2p ET
Aired August 21, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up. Israel begins its offensive on Gaza City, but will
it face a manpower issue? I speak with reporter Oren Liebermann from Jerusalem and Israeli political analyst Dahlia Scheindlin. Then, "Here
Comes the Sun." Environmentalist. Bill McKibben tells me about the remarkable growth of solar power. And the Afghans left behind. Four years
since the Taliban takeover, Isobel Yeung brings us this report from Afghanistan. Plus, the art of resistance. I look back at Christiane's
conversation with painter Amy Sherald, she who canceled her Smithsonian show to protest censorship.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Israel is getting ready for its ground offensive into Gaza City. The Israeli military says that it is already on the outskirts of the area, and
that's just the first step of a larger operation. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ordered the IDF to give him a shortened timeline for the
threatened takeover and occupation of Gaza's largest city.
Aid agencies say this push risks worsening the ongoing humanitarian catastrophe. Meanwhile, in the West Bank, the Israeli government gave final
approval to a settlement plan that effectively cuts the territory into two. Oren Liebermann joins me now from Jerusalem with more on this. And, Oren,
first, let's start with this larger scale offensive into Gaza City. Has the official green light been given by the prime minister's government?
OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN JERUSALEM BUREAU CHIEF: We are waiting for a green light on the operational plans themselves. The overall plan has been
approved. Now, it's in the details. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu met with his defense minister, army officials and other high level security
officials earlier this afternoon, and we're still waiting for a statement or a decision to come out of that.
But certainly, all of the signs are that this is moving forward, a phased operation. One, an Israeli source told us could take five months or more.
Netanyahu wants to accelerate that timeline. Regardless, he's going to need tens of thousands of more forces to do this, and that's where the military
may run up against or discover the limits of its manpower.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LIEBERMANN (voice-over): The drums of war are pounding Gaza City. A new Israeli military operation has been targeting the largest city in the
Northern Strip, one that will require a surge of reserved soldiers to go back to fight again.
Ayshalom Zohar Sal is a reservist who documented his time in Gaza in these photographs. He says he spent more than 300 days in Gaza on four different
deployments. The last one ended one month ago.
I'm a little in shock that we're still in this thing, he says, I'm a little in shock that we're still talking about this war that was supposed to end a
long time ago. And I think if you were to ask everyone in my unit, it's hard for everyone.
The doubts, he says, began creeping in one year ago, and they've only grown. This month, Israel's security cabinet approved the occupation of
Gaza City, a major escalation that could take five months or more. Zohar Sal says he's not going back.
I think this decision is a death sentence for the hostages, he says. The government talked and said all the time that we're talking about two
missions for this war, to return the hostages and to defeat Hamas. Now, it's telling us there's only one goal, which I believe is not achievable,
to destroy Hamas. Even this won't destroy Hamas.
Amidst some of the largest protests Israel has seen since the beginning of the war, families of the hostages are calling the planned operation a
deception, an unforgivable moral, and security neglect. A recent study of reserve soldiers suggested approximately 40 percent or slightly or
significantly less motivated to serve. The military's top general warned the security cabinet of the burden on manpower, an exhausted army in a war
that won't end.
Israel's military relies on reservists to keep fighting, and the military said Wednesday that the takeover of Gaza City will require up to 60,000
more troops. Dan Halutz is the former Israeli military chief of staff.
LT. GEN. DAN HALUTZ (RET.), FORMER IDF CHIEF OF STAFF: I believe that some of them will stay home. When something is coming to an end, you feel it,
and it comes to an end.
LIEBERMANN (voice-over): Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu promised the intense fighting would be over by now.
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Once we begin the Rafah operation, the intense phase of the fighting is weeks away from completion,
not months, weeks away from completion.
[13:05:00]
LIEBERMANN (voice-over): That was February 2024. 18 months later, Netanyahu says a new operation is the fastest way to end what has long
since become Israel's longest war.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIEBERMANN (on camera): Meanwhile, ahead of the military, assault into Gaza City itself, which is still several weeks away, there has to be an
evacuation of Gaza City first. Mediators are pushing to start new ceasefire talks to see if it's possible to get a deal. Hamas approved or accepted
that ceasefire proposal earlier this week. And now, the world frankly is waiting for Netanyahu to respond. Bianna, he has been very quiet on this as
all the signs he's put out are that this military operation is going forward.
GOLODRYGA: And yet, he hasn't scheduled that security cabinet meeting to officially give approval for this specific military operation. Are we
reading too much into that? Is this already, in your view and in what you're hearing from sources, a done deal or is this a way to perhaps give
more time to the possibility of renewing these ceasefire talks?
LIEBERMANN: So, to some extent this is classic Netanyahu, wait as long as possible to make a decision, which gives you more time to decide. He hasn't
rejected the deal on the table, while all of his statements and the actions we're seeing are signaling that this military operation is going ahead.
One, the U.N. just warned earlier today would lead to more death and destruction in Gaza. And yet, again, he hasn't ruled it out yet.
In terms of approving it, the security cabinet has given approval to the overall operation. So, that's really the only green light he needs. Are
there details that have to be worked out about specific goals, tactics, strategies? Yes, but he can approve that with his defense minister and with
the military chief of staff. He doesn't have to go back to the security cabinet, the broader cabinet, or the government for that level of approval.
He has all the authority he needs. And now is the critical decision of ceasefire talks or offensive on Gaza City.
GOLODRYGA: And there appears to be a flip flop now, because for a long time the Israeli government has been pushing for a temporary ceasefire with
the release of a certain number of hostages in return for some 60 days in pausing and fighting.
Now, Israel is saying -- and Hamas, at the meantime, said that, no, all or nothing, all the hostages in a permanent end to the war. Now, it's Israel
that's saying, all of the hostages return in exchange for a permanent into the war while Hamas appears to be on board now with that initial proposal
for at least a partial ceasefire. It's a bit confusing. What, if anything, should we read into that?
LIEBERMANN: Well, Bianna, you're absolutely right to point this out. Until now, Israel's position -- and that really is Netanyahu's position, has been
that he will only take a partial deal because at the end of that, he needed the option of restarting the war for his own government, his far-right
coalition parties have threatened to quit the government if there was a comprehensive ceasefire.
And so, he would only go for a partial deal and reject it outright, a comprehensive end of the war that didn't meet the goals that he has set
out. That is the complete disarmament of Hamas, which is a red line, the destruction of Hamas, which is a red line to them, and security control of
Gaza, also a red line.
Now, it's the opposite. Now -- and really since the last ceasefire talks collapsed at the end of last month, Israel's position has been it has to be
a comprehensive end of the war, one that still achieves everything Israel wants to achieve which many of those are frankly, a poison pill to Hamas.
Hamas meanwhile has accepted the deal that's on the table, that has put pressure back on Israel up until up -- Hamas still calls for a
comprehensive end of the war. They still want that and stronger guarantees to that out of this partial deal, but at least as of what's on the table
right now, it is Hamas that has given the green light as we wait to see what Israel's official position is. And that Netanyahu hasn't said
anything, could be just buying time, could be he hasn't made a decision or it could frankly be a bit that he has and that we're seeing it play out in
Gaza City.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, it appears that Netanyahu now thinks that he can do both at the same time, squeeze Hamas for a better deal under his terms by the
increased use of military pressure on the ground there, of course, so much concern about what that means for the Israeli hostages, and obviously
concern about the civilian population there in Gaza as well.
One more question to you about this news over the controversial move and the approval of the settlements in the West Bank right now that would
dissect essentially the West Bank into two, in effect undermining a two- state solution. It's getting condemnation from a number of European countries around the world but not the United States.
[13:10:00]
Mike Huckabee, the U.S. ambassador to Israel, says that Palestinian State recognition by Europe and others actually encourages Israel to expand
settlements. How is this being interpreted in Israel?
LIEBERMANN: Well, the U.S. and Israel are effectively on the same position here, and we haven't really heard an official policy position from the
White House on this. We have certainly heard Ambassador Mike Huckabee, who is in favor of the expansion of settlements, or at the very least, isn't
opposed to the expansion of settlements.
He's right in the sense that the far-right members of Netanyahu's government, specifically his finance minister, see this as a way of getting
back at the Europeans for recognizing a Palestinian State next month or expected to recognize a Palestinian State. And this, E1 as this settlement
is called, has essentially been frozen for decades now because it's considered the last nail in the coffin of a Palestinian State. It separates
the West Bank, the occupied West Bank, north and south.
So, you can't really get a contiguous Palestinian State, and it cuts off East Jerusalem, which the Palestinians in the world view as the capital of
a future Palestinian State from what would be the rest of the country. That's why the finance minister and others in the far-right have celebrated
it. That's why frankly, many on the right, not just the far-right have celebrated it. And the international condemnation won't really do anything
to sway Israel's position without, frankly, the teeth of U.S. condemnation here. And that is nowhere to be found.
GOLODRYGA: So, the timing of this is not coincidental then in terms of how at least far-right members of this government are viewing this, as they say
retaliation in response to a number of western countries recognizing a Palestinian State. All right. Oren Liebermann in Jerusalem for us, thank
you so much.
Now, let's go to Israeli political analyst, Dahlia Scheindlin. Thank you so much, Dahlia, for joining the show. If you can just give us a sense. We saw
that massive turnout last weekend protest, which is really quite telling given that that country is so war fatigued at this point. The longest war
in Israel's history. And there had been concern that the population is just exhausted. And every week we've seen these protests. Nothing the size and
scale of what we saw last weekend though, maybe you'd have to go back to the early days of the war. What is the fallout from that? What have the --
I know there had been some optimism and hope that the pressure would work on this government, has it?
DAHLIA SCHEINDLIN, ISRAELI POLITICAL ANALYST AND AUTHOR, "THE CROOKED TIMBER OF DEMOCRACY IN ISRAEL": (INAUDIBLE) work on this government, and I
think that the main point we have to internalize. This is not the government. What sees itself as required to be accountable or responsive to
what the Israeli people want, for in the entire course of this war, public opinion impulse have showed repeatably (INAUDIBLE) that the majority of
Israelis want a full hostage release deal (INAUDIBLE) end to the war, and that majority has only been growing over time.
We have reached over 70 percent, as high as 76 percent in some surveys. This somewhat does not see itself as having any obligation to meet those
expectations. The (INAUDIBLE) focused primarily on its base and it retains the base of (INAUDIBLE). That range is -- and I put that range, I could say
25 to 40 percent for these particular policies, but I'm not even sure if the government is really even taking into account that public opinion
either.
What the government is doing is trying to stay in power by keeping the war going. That's the basic contract between Netanyahu and its coalition
partners. I don't see any see anything to distinguish between what Netanyahu himself does and the (INAUDIBLE) fairly aligned that the aim to
keep the war going for as long as they possibly can. To that end, of course, we have no idea what Netanyahu will decide about this (INAUDIBLE)
release deal, if there's a flip flop, as mentioned in the previous report.
We think that the main point is that they're trying to do as much as they can also, in terms of West Bank annex -- before the end of this
government's term, which will happen in late 2026 at the latest. So, in all the public pressure, all of the hundreds of thousands of people who were
out there, the strikes, the significant (INAUDIBLE) from Israeli life was important, but I had -- I think that most Israelis who went out didn't
actually hold significant hope that the government was really going to change its policies over their demonstrations.
GOLODRYGA: Dahlia Scheindlin, stay with us please. We're going to take a quick break. We may be having some sort of technical issue with your
connection. I can hear you, but it's a bit strained. So, let's see if we can work that out and come back after a couple minutes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:15:00]
GOLODRYGA: All right. Israel's far-right minister, Bezalel Smotrich, is trying to put a death nail on the prospect of any future Palestinian State,
as we've been reporting, by moving forward with that controversial new settlement in the occupied territories. CNN's Nic Robertson reports more
from the West Bank.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR DIPLOMATIC EDITOR (voice-over): In days, these Palestinian farmsteads in the occupied West Bank could be gone. The Israeli
government has just signed off on a demolition to make way for 3,500 new Israeli settlement home, expanding the nearby settlement of Maale Adumim.
ROBERTSON: When are they coming to demolish these houses?
ATALLAH MAZARA, HEAD OF VILLAGE COMMITTEE, JABAL AL-BABA: Maybe tomorrow and the night. And I don't understand.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): Atallah has lived here 50 years, has no idea what to expect.
MAZARA: My prayer, for the children, for the woman, for the animals. Where you go.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): This is Jabal Al-Baba. Everyone here is waiting to be evicted now, 450 people, about 80 families, they tell us. Jabal means
hill or mountain. And for many people here now, this feels like it could be the hill upon which the idea of a Palestinian State dies.
The reasons, they say that best understood on this map, Jabal Al-Baba is in area E1 where there will be more evictions and a new road restricting
Palestinian movements. So, Israel's biggest settlement, Maale Adumim can grow area E1 links the West Bank to East Jerusalem. Palestinians pick for a
future capital and connects the north and south of the West Bank.
On another hill, just a mile from Jabal Al-Baba Israeli Peace Activist Haget Ofran shows young Israelis what Israel's expansion into area E1
means.
HAGET OFRAN, CO-DIRECTOR, SETTLEMENT WATCH: The government wants to fill in the gap and to make an Israeli corridor into the heart of the West Bank.
And in fact, to cut the Palestinian territory for southern area and northern area.
ROBERTSON: So, what does that mean in reality, when you cut -- when you cut the Palestinian area like that?
OFRAN: It means that you cannot develop a viable economy, not to say, a state.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): 20 years ago, then lawmaker Benjamin Netanyahu vowed to expand the huge Maale Adumim Settlement. Today PM, Netanyahu's
pro-settler government says their area E1 evictions are legal and justified and appear intended to outmaneuver European decisions to recognize a
Palestinian State.
BEZALEL SMOTRICH, ISRAELI FINANCE MINISTER (through translator): We will continue to build a fulfilling Jewish reality. This reality definitively
buries the idea of a Palestinian State simply because there is nothing and no one left to recognize.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): On the fringes of area E1 in the bustling streets of Eseria (ph), Smotrich's words are also having a chilling effect.
ROBERTSON: This is where Palestinians say the new Israeli road is going to be built on this busy highway. Thank you. And cutting across the road right
along here. So, this will be completely -- thank you, completely shut off. And these stores have closed already because of the demolition order.
[13:20:00]
ROBERTSON (voice-over): Municipality Official Mohammed Mata (ph) points to stores already shuttered. Tells me demolition orders on more than 100
premises have already been served. Says the new road will destroy their fragile economy. Back on the hilltop Atallah the Bedouin Leader, tells me
confiscating these lands is like cutting a cake down the middle.
Jabal Al-Baba isn't only the end of the Bedouins dreams here, he says, it's also the end of every Palestinian's dream of having a state in the future.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Our thanks to Nic Robertson for that report. Let's bring back Dahlia Scheindlin. And, Dahlia, as we were discussing in our previous
segment with Oren, the timing now of these settlements and their approval, specifically from the words of what we're hearing from Finance Minister
Smotrich, really coincide and follow the recognition of a Palestinian State from a number of European countries, Australia, as well as Canada, sort of
a retribution, in a sense, from the finance minister, and we heard as much from the U.S. ambassador to Israel as well, Mike Huckabee.
And this comes at a time where we're seeing the most unusual of events where the Israeli prime minister is taking publicly to accusing the leaders
of these countries of antisemitism, of being weak. How is this being felt in the response within Israel itself? I understand a number of Israelis, I
would imagine Jews in the diaspora, aren't necessarily comfortable with the state of affairs right now, and even the rise in antisemitism around the
world. But when you hear these words from the head of state against another ally and head of state, what's the response been?
SCHEINDLIN: I think the response in Israel tends to be a little bit conflicted because Israelis are, on the one hand, increasingly noticed
about the sense of international isolation. They -- you know, those people critical of Netanyahu and who have always been seeing him as the person who
led Israel into this situation of global program condemnation, isolation, and it's going to affect everybody's lives.
However, there is also an overriding sense in Israel along the (INAUDIBLE) and there has always been an overriding sense that the world is generally
unable to see Israel's perspective on these things, that the world is unfair to Israel. And that still falls. The Israel has claimed for itself a
victimized mentality, and I think Netanyahu is highly (INAUDIBLE).
So, he's essentially talking to the Israeli tablet on the themes where he thinks he has broader support because he know (INAUDIBLE) because the
Palestinian, citizens of Israel see it very differently. But (INAUDIBLE) make one more point about this (INAUDIBLE). Let's not have any of
(INAUDIBLE) established by Netanyahu (INAUDIBLE) has always been permitted on paper. Coalition agree to the full annexation of the West Bank. Gaza was
not even on the table then, but the second October 7th happened, this government naturally extended its ambitions to Gazans as well.
But I don't -- you know, there is forced opportunity that this government feels has been provided to it to say its retribution, for global steps to
recognize the Palestinian State, but let's -- you know, don't be fool. They have wanted this. Not only -- it's not some inside information, it's been
their declared aim since the beginning. Israelis know that, of course Israeli population is extremely divided for that issue. And you know, the
fact is that the stuff that was elected, not by an absolute majority that they like to claim, but they were legitimately elected largely on the
promise of doing these rules.
So, there's also that dynamic, as much as the majority of Israelis want the war to end and end this global isolation, you also have a majority of
Israelis who oppose a Palestinian State and think that the world is against them (INAUDIBLE).
GOLODRYGA: Dahlia, last question. If it's not massive protests, if it's not even public opinion that can sway the prime minister to at least accept
a deal right now and temporarily into the war, is it strictly now in the hands of President Trump to put that pressure on him? And what do you make
and what do Israelis make of the fact that if anything he seems to not only endorse the prime minister's plan, but also sort of lose interest in it at
this point?
[13:25:00]
SCHEINDLIN: (INAUDIBLE) perspective of Israelis. I think the Israelis have incredibly high hopes for President Trump to step in and do exactly that.
There's a presenting view in Israel, and as an analyst, I don't see any real alternative to President Trump, you know, forcing this to happen
essentially. The only other way that war could possibly end, given that this government seems absolutely committed to not ending it, is for the
government to be voted out of power. But elections, as we know, are not sort of -- like I said before, are not scheduled to be held until late
2026. Even when they do hold, we don't know, although I should point out that all credible polls in Israel show that the current government led by
Mr. Netanyahu cannot get a majority.
And if the poll -- if elections were held today, the current coalition, as it stands, they would not win. And therefore, if there's a change of
government, you may have a government that is more responsive to the public demand to end this war and get the hostages back through a deal. But that's
a long way off. It's extremely hypothetical. For the meantime, I think, you know, the reality is that President Trump is the only one who can really
lead probably an international coalition of pressure to force that deal on the two sides. And the fact that he's not doing it or has lost interest or
has been distracted or something (INAUDIBLE) as he has not really been able to bring peace to all the six or seven places he thinks he has.
You know, for Israelis, that's an incredible disappointment. I think they feel abandoned and, you know, certainly by their own government and in a
way, by their last hope. As ironic as it is, Trump was that last hope.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Dahlia Scheindlin, thank you so much. Really appreciate your insights. Good to see you.
Well, now, since President Trump has taken off, his clean energy in the United States has been under attack. On Wednesday, President Trump posted
on X that his administration will not approve wind or farmer destroying solar powered projects, leaving companies in fear that they'll no longer
get permits for future developments.
Now, it's easy to lose sight of the fact that these energy sources are largely the cheapest available in the country. In his new book, "Here Comes
the Sun," Environmentalist. Bill McKibben claims that this adoption of solar power is happening faster than ever pro-fossil fuel policies can even
stop. And he joins us from Vermont with more on this.
Bill McKibben, welcome to the program. So, the title of your new book, "Here Comes the Sun," I have to say is strikingly optimistic. Where do you
find optimism in moments like this where we're seeing administration come in and actually attack policies that would promote fuel efficient forms of
energy production?
BILL MCKIBBEN, AUTHOR, "HERE COMES THE SUN": Well in the first place, it's worth remembering that the world is larger than the United States, and the
rest of the planet is moving full speed ahead in the direction of clean energy. The Chinese installed more solar power in the first six months of
this year than exists in all the United States.
So, what's happening here is a tremendous transfer of technological leadership west to east. But even within the United States, in many of the
reddest parts of the United States, we're continuing to see dramatic expansion of renewable energy based surely on the economics of clean -- of
the sun and the wind. Texas is now leading the country in clean energy installation, even though it's also the home of the same hydrocarbon
industry that has spent so much money to influence President Trump.
GOLODRYGA: Right. And you write that renewables are now, quote, "the obvious mainstream cost-efficient choice." What's driven that trend and is
it strictly -- does it come down to economics? Does it come down to what we saw from President Biden and his push for more incentives for these
companies to really invest in these industries?
MCKIBBEN: In the largest sense, what's driven it is the constantly lowering price of solar energy. Sometime about five years ago, we passed an
invisible line where it became cheaper to generate power from the sun and the wind than from setting coal and gas and oil on fire. And this is what's
led to solar becoming not just the fastest growing energy source on earth, but the fastest growing energy source in the history of the planet.
But there are a lot of other things that make it extremely good idea to move quickly in this direction. And I think people are beginning to
understand those. The most obvious is that this is the first scalable thing that's actually begun to put a dent in how hot the temperature of the
planet will eventually get.
But there are also 9 million people a year who die on this planet, about one death in five, from breathing the combustion byproducts of fossil fuel,
those particulates that lodge in your lungs. And we're really coming to understand what it's going to mean to the geopolitics of our planet to no
longer depend on energy sources that can be hoarded and held in reserve by a few people.
[13:30:00]
Think about how the geopolitics of the planet would've been different in the last 70 years if oil had been of trivial value. Humans are good at
finding things to fight wars over, as you chronicle every single day, but even human beings will be hard pressed to figure out how to fight a war
over sunshine.
GOLODRYGA: And you talk about China here, and we should note China is still one of the two major fossil fuel emitters in the world, but it's also
installing more than half of the world's renewables right now. Its energy companies are now outpacing big oil. What is China seeing that at least
this current administration in Washington doesn't?
MCKIBBEN: Well, China's just looking straight ahead, but they're taking -- and this is -- should be the thing that makes Americans angry at our
administration. They're taking American technology. The solar cell was invented in America in 1954 and using it to lead the world because we're
abdicating this. China -- it's not just that China's eating our lunch, it's that a crew of red capped waiters is serving up America's lunch to China as
we speak, all because the fossil fuel industry -- I mean, you'll recall Candidate Trump a year ago announcing that if he got a billion dollars from
the oil industry, they could have anything they wanted from his administration. In the end, they pony up about half a billion in
advertising, lobbying and donations, and that was enough. He's trying to turn the clock back.
But electricity prices are now sharply on the rise in the U.S. because he's foreclosing the cheapest sources of energy. So, it's going to come back and
bite him in the rear end too.
GOLODRYGA: The U.S., we should note, is on track to add a record 33 gigawatts of solar this year. How long did it take to reach this and how
have different administrations most recently shaped this path?
MCKIBBEN: So, it took the whole planet about -- between 1954 and 2022 to get the first terawatt of solar power installed. The second terawatt was
installed over the next two years, and the third will come in about 15 months, sometime in the middle of 2025.
In the U.S., Joe Biden did his best to try and help the U.S. catch up with China. That's what the IRA was about, with all the money for new battery
factories and for helping people with the initial capital costs of getting solar panels up on their roof. But that's the thing that the GOP-led
Congress swept away at Trump's behest, doing the bidding of the oil industry who are terrified what this will do to their business model.
I mean, California right now, which has done more than any other state to install solar energy, is using 40 percent less natural gas to generate
electricity than they did two years ago. That's what a rapid transition looks like. And if we could spread that every place around the world, we
could start knocking some tenths of a degree off how hot the planet eventually gets.
That's why we're doing this big Sunday action on September 21st, events, hundreds of them all across the United States, to try and make people
understand the key thing, this is no longer alternative energy, this is now the straight-ahead common-sense way forward. The analogy I've been using is
that we're used to thinking of sun and wind as the whole foods of energy, nice but pricey. They're the Costco of energy now. Cheap, available in
bulk, on the shelf, and ready to go.
GOLODRYGA: You mentioned the trends that we're seeing not only in California, but obviously, and in red states too, in particular, Texas, a
real trend to invest in clean energy. I'm just wondering if, in fact, we do see a lot of the subsidies that had been part of the Inflation Reduction
Act provided for companies by President Biden, if they're rolled back now by President Trump, how does that impact not only states and local
governments' business models, but obviously the private sector there as well?
MCKIBBEN: It's going to impact it. If you want solar on your roof, move quickly because the credits that were supposed to last for 10 years are now
going to expire at midnight on New Year's Eve. We're doing -- moving even more quickly to decimate the EV industry in this country. Those credits
expire at the end of September, which is, you know, foolishness on steroids.
[13:35:00]
The car industry, which we've thought of as synonymous with Detroit, is increasing synonymous with four cities in China whose names I have
difficulty pronouncing, because they've seized the technological lead. And we're -- I mean, if Trump really has his way and is able to carry -- keep
this ban on renewable energy going for a few years, then it's possible that 10 years down the road, the rest of the world will come to America to kind
of gawk (ph) at the Colonial Williamsburg of the internal combustion engine. Sort of see how we used to do things in the olden days on this
planet.
I hope we don't do that. I hope America decides that it wants to try and catch up with the rest of the world here.
GOLODRYGA: In the final few seconds we have here, how concerned if you -- are you, if at all, in the A.I. industry, the sort of the industry of the
future that's booming right now and their need for more and more energy consumptions with their data centers as this sort of becomes more
mainstream?
MCKIBBEN: This is the place where solar and wind energy make the most sense of all. Because, as you know, they're the one source of energy that
we can set up quickly. It takes years, many to build a gas fired power plant, decades to put up a nuclear plant. But you can have a solar farm up
in 10 months. That's why a team from Silicon Valley issued a big report last year saying, if you're so intent on building these data centers, you
have no choice but to turn to solar power. It's what makes the Trump policies so foolish, because consumers are going to get squeezed as prices
go up while that demand rises and they constrict the supply from the cheapest sources.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Bill McKibben, it is good to see you. Great Sunday promotion with that t-shirt as well. Don't think we didn't notice it. Thank
you so much for taking the time. Congratulations with the new book, "Here Comes the Sun."
All right. We turn now to Afghanistan, which four years ago this month fell back into the hands of the Taliban. Since then, the lives of the people
there and for women and girls especially has changed dramatically. And when U.S. forces withdrew, thousands of Afghans who worked with the army and the
government were abandoned.
Fast forward to today and a new travel ban from the Trump administration is exacerbating the situation even further, blocking people from Afghanistan
from traveling to the U.S. Leaving people there even more isolated and out of options. CNN's Isobel Yeung reports from Afghanistan.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ISOBEL YEUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Here in Afghanistan, the remnants of war are everywhere.
YEUNG: These guys are trying to clear this whole field of land mines that have been left by decades of war. Just got to watch where we're stepping,
because anywhere beyond these red flags is still potentially contaminated and could have unexploded ordnance.
YEUNG (voice-over): Deminers work around the clock.
KHALID SAMIN, DANISH REFUGEE COUNCIL: There were three accidents, civilian accidents, happened in this area in the past.
YEUNG: Oh, wow. And how often are civilian accidents happening in Afghanistan?
SAMIN: On a monthly basis, we have witnessed more than 110 people. Most of them as children involved with the accident. Unfortunately.
YEUNG: So, over 100 civilian accidents every month.
SAMIN: Monthly basis, yes.
YEUNG: Wow. It must be dangerous work.
SAMIN: Yes. This is the reality of Afghanistan.
YEUNG: This guy's hair has just found some sign of metal, so they're digging a little further to try and find out whether that's a mine or not.
Very hot, dangerous work up here.
YEUNG (voice-over): Every week, the deminers collect unexploded ordnance and explode them. But invading countries have left more than just bombs in
their wake here. Hundreds of thousands of Afghans worked with the U.S. government during their 20-year war here as translators, drivers, civil
society, workers and doctors.
Following America's chaotic withdrawal under the Biden Administration in 2021 the U.S. set up a refugee program that would provide a path for
Afghans to move to the U.S., a lightning rod for many Republicans.
STEPHEN MILLER, NOW-WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: The United States of America never, ever made a promise, written or unwritten, to the people
of Afghanistan, that if, after 20 years, they were unable to secure their own country, that we would take them to ours.
YEUNG (voice-over): When Trump returned to power this year, he canceled refugee programs, dismantled the office dedicated to helping Afghans
relocate and barred them from entering the U.S. altogether.
YEUNG: We've been speaking to a lot of those individuals across the country, but sadly, because of security concerns, most of them we're having
to speak to on the phone.
YEUNG (voice-over): On paper, the U.S. says they are still processing caters for people who worked with the U.S. military directly, but many,
like this man are stuck in Afghanistan, living in fear. We've disguised his voice.
[13:40:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know that the Taliban is searching for me. I'm hiding I can't go outside freely. If they find me, I'm confident that he will
imprison me. They will torture me. They will kill me. Donald Trump become U.S. President. He signed the executor order and all cases dropped. We
stood within his forces side by side for a long term, but now it banned us, why? Where is the justice?
YEUNG: So, we've been in touch with one woman who has agreed to meet with us. She says that it's very risky that she risks running into the Taliban,
she risks traveling by herself, and she's very scared. But she says it's worth it, because she really needs to share her story.
YEUNG (voice-over): As a doctor, this woman worked for American charities with recent U.S. aid cuts she lost her job. She now feels that her
relationship with U.S. organizations has put her and her family's life in danger.
YEUNG: You're clearly terrified. You came here. You were shaking.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: During the way here, I saw Taliban and I'm very afraid of them.
YEUNG: What is it like as a woman living in Afghanistan right now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The situation is very bad for the Afghan woman. And we don't -- I don't have any job. Going to the bazaar, not going to the
shopping. We can't. Everything. Just we are in the home and we are afraid from every second of the life we are spent is very dangerous.
YEUNG (voice-over): Her communication with the State Department has stopped. The last email she got was in January, just days before Trump
returned to the White House.
YEUNG: How did you feel when you saw the news that Trump was canceling these programs?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All the night we are crying. It was very difficult to accept like this.
YEUNG: You felt like this was your lifeline?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, yes. It broke our heart.
YEUNG: President Trump has said that he needs to protect the borders that he needs this America First policy to ensure that it's not dangerous and no
one dangerous enters the U.S.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I'm not agree with this. They broke his promise to Afghan woman and Afghan girls.
YEUNG: What does it feel like?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're feeling bad because we trusted it. And we working with them for 20 years. And they promised us too. We must be moved
from here to America.
YEUNG: What is your message to President Trump?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please, please, please, start the cases again. And also, please support the Afghani girls or women. Because now it was very
difficult for us. It was very dangerous. And now, I'm not feeling safe in here.
YEUNG (voice-over): The U.S. State Department told us they're unable to comment on individual cases or internal operations of refugee processing,
and that the president is, quote, committed to helping those who helped us, but that their first priority is always the safety and security of the
American people.
Isobel Yeung, CNN, Afghanistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Our thanks to Isobel for that report. Still to come after the break, where art meets activism. After the break, we look back at
Christiane's conversation with artists Sherald.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:45:00]
GOLODRYGA: Welcome back. Now, tensions between President Trump and America's national museums that comprise the Smithsonian Institution have
been bubbling for months. Since Trump returned to office, the Smithsonian has been reviewing and removing artifact to comply with his executive order
to get rid of, quote, "divisive narratives that distort our shared history."
Just last month, artist Amy Sherald, she pulled out of a planned solo exhibit at the National Portrait Gallery after learning the museum was
considering removing her painting depicting a transgender statue of Liberty, seen here on the front page of The New Yorker. Sherald has never
shied away from social issues. Her painting of Breonna Taylor, the African American woman who became a symbol of the Black Lives Matter movement after
being shot and killed by police graced the cover of Vanity Fair.
And back in 2021, Christiane spoke to Sherald about her work.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Welcome to the program, Amy Sherald. What amazing thing. I mean, this portrait, you have
decided not to sell off to the highest bidder like you could have done, it's an amazing thing, but to give it to the public commons, if you like,
to make a public statement with it. Tell me why that was important to you.
AMY SHERALD, ARTIST: It was important to me because, you know, it was just something I knew I had to do when I was asked to make this portrait for the
cover of Vanity Fair. I had a long conversation with Ta-Nehisi Coates about it and I decided it was the right thing to do. And after the cover was
revealed, it was sitting in my studio and I was thinking about Louisville and all the unrest that had happened there because Breonna Taylor and I
felt like it could be a Balm in Gilead and a way for people to process through art what was happening in the community and maybe find some solace.
AMANPOUR: I want to ask you about the actual painting itself because -- and I'm going to, you know, play a little bit in a moment from Ta-Nehisi
because I talked to her about this when it was on Vanity Fair's cover last September.
But you obviously had communication with Breonna's mother, with her family. You chose to do the colors, the dress, the ring. Tell me how you brought
her alive and how you got to know her. Because, obviously, it's the first time you've painted somebody who is no longer alive.
SHERALD: Right. The first thing I did was reach out to her mother and I asked her to send me some photographs that really represented Breonna's
personality. And one thing that she said was that Breonna love to get dressed. And so, I know, as a woman, as a young woman, if I was going to be
on the cover of Vanity Fair, I would want to feel beautiful.
So, the first thing I did was reach out to her mother. I then found a young lady who I used for a painting before to pose for me because she was the
same height and the same stature as Breonna. And then I read out to a black female designer in Atlanta Georgia by the name of Jasmine Elder and started
a conversation with her about some of the dresses that I was thinking about. And she was so happy to be a part of the project. She sent me five
or six dresses and, you know, we ended up using want for that painting.
As far as the color, it was the hardest choice I felt like I've ever had to make in any of my painting. It took so long. It was three or four days of
me -- you know, I think I saw so many colors that by the end of the day I didn't know what I see, what I like and what I didn't like. And I remember
walking into the backroom down the hallway from my studio and I was just like, Breonna, what color do you want this dress to be. And when I got
back, I had -- it was transitioning from one color to another and the blue on blue came in and I thought that that was exactly what I was looking for
because it allowed the viewer to focus on her face. There is a sense of etherealness that -- you know, that encompasses her heavenliness and just
introspection.
AMANPOUR: I want to play this bit, as I said, when I spoke to Ta-Nehisi about his commissioning you to do this. And he had talked to Breonna's
mother, you know, about what this all meant to her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TA-NEHISI COATES, AUTHOR: When Tamika Palmer, Breonna's mother, when she thinks about her daughter, you know, she's very happy that, you know, she
become a symbol for the movement. But that is her daughter, that's a life, that's -- you know Breonna is not a slogan to her, she's am actually a
person. And it's so important to remember that when these cops kill people that they kill actual people, that they're not piling up numbers, that
these are not digits, these are actual lives of people, children who -- folks have put energy into who are completely erased off the face of the
earth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[13:50:00]
AMANPOUR: You know, he puts it so correctly and dramatically, obviously. And I was struck also by the fact that you put the ring on her finger,
because she hadn't yet received it.
SHERALD: Yes. As soon as Ta-Nehisi and Latoya Ruby Frazier, we were on a Skype, just kind of going over the work that she had done and we deal with
the family and the photographs. And when I found out that it was a love story, it really felt like something that had to be included into this
painting. So, I asked Latoya to send me an image of that engagement ring that Breonna did not know that she was going to get.
And I reached to Tamika Palmer and she asked Kenny if he was OK with it and he was absolutely ecstatic about it being included. It brings -- it just
brings another level of meaning to the story.
AMANPOUR: It really does. And another bigger level of meaning why you've done this, you know, I've read that you weren't able to join the Black
Lives Matter protests, that this is part of your protest, if you like, but also part of your commitment to social justice. And the funds, whatever
funds accrue, are going to support social justice education.
SHERALD: It's -- you know, as an American painter, as a female painter, as a black female painter, I realize, especially, as a black painter, my
responsibility when it comes to, you know, visually representing this American narrative in a way that will allow her story to continue to be
retold. And so, that's why it was really important for me to make sure that I found the right steward for this work. And of course, it had to be in
Louisville, of course (INAUDIBLE) Museum had to be -- have some ownership over this painting and it be a part of her community and where her mother
resides.
But I also felt that it was also appropriate for it to be within an institution in D.C. in line of sight of the White House and that National
Museum of African-American History and Culture, I felt like it was the perfect home for it because this is a key moment and she's become symbolic
of this moment and they will be able to create some context around that narrative in order for her story to continue to be told.
AMANPOUR: I wonder, Amy, whether you've heard any reaction from people who have seen it, whether it has, you know, had the important impact on people
who see it in her hometown. And also, because, of course, you shot to fame with your portrait of First Lady Michelle Obama, which is also going on the
road. So, you're big into -- I don't know, is it a teachable moment or what is -- it's moving this history throughout to the country and not just
keeping it on the walls of a museum.
SHERALD: Yes, it's true. You know, I mean, I'm not a commission artist. But when I'm offered the opportunity to become a part of and create a
legacy through painting, I think it's something that is really important to do.
AMANPOUR: It is really remarkable. Amy Sherald, thank you so much indeed for joining us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And finally, make sure to tune in to tomorrow's show for my sit down with award-winning musician Jon Batiste. From spending seven years as
the band leader on "The Late Show with Stephen Colbert" and performing with the likes of Stevie Wonder, Alicia Keys. and Prince to composing the score
for Disney Pixar film "Soul." He's done it all. And now, he's out with his latest album, "Big Money," showcasing what he calls New Americano. Here's a
bit of our conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JON BATISTE, SINGER: The idea of what it means to make music and what we are striving for is shifting for those who are in the music industry that
still care about making music, which is a minority. But to make music, to really be a musician.
GOLODRYGA: That's a real statement.
BATISTE: To be an artist and to not just play with music or to even degrade music for the sake of the attention economy. You know, it's going
to be a real drag if you actually believing in the music, but those who are in it and love it and want to -- you know, it's power and know it can
connect to folks, we are seeing this repatriation of sounds and rhythms and these things that were of the past and relics of a time that maybe was
misunderstood.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[13:55:00]
GOLODRYGA: Jon Batiste really has us just continuing to rave about that experience yesterday and sitting down and speaking with him. That interview
was 30 minutes. You're going to see we had to edit it down. We're going to give you 15 minutes of it. It was a sheer joy and it was an honor to be
with him as he sang for us. It was so kind to everyone in the room. And what a talent he is. You'll want to tune in for that conversation tomorrow.
Meantime, that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can
always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media. Thanks so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
