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Amanpour
Suspect Tyler Robinson In Custody In Charlie Kirk Killing; Kirk's Casket Brough To Phoenix, Arizona; NATO Launches "Eastern Sentry" Operation; Interview With Al Jazeera Gaza Bureau Chief Wael al-Dahdouh; Interview With Former Hostage Held In Gaza And Husband Was Killed In October 7 Hamas Attacks Liat Beinin Atzili; Interview With "Holding Liat" Director Brandon Kramer; Interview With Arizona State University President Michael Crow. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired September 12, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York. An update on the breaking news we've been following.
Sources tell CNN that the suspect in the killing of Charlie Kirk is not speaking to investigators. He's being held in jail without bail. The
suspect is 22-year-old Tyler Robinson. He's from Washington, Utah, and had no political party affiliation and had not voted recently. Investigators
add during the 33-hour manhunt, they found anti-fascist messages engraved on ammunition with a rifle near the site of the shooting. Utah Governor
Spencer Cox says Robinson acted alone.
At a news conference earlier, the governor talked about the weapon used in the shooting and the messages on the ammunition.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. SPENCER COX (R-UT): Investigators discovered a bolt-action rifle wrapped in a dark-colored towel. The rifle was determined to be a Mauser
Model 98 386 caliber bolt-action rifle. The rifle had a scope mounted on top of it. Investigators noted inscriptions that had been engraved on
casings found with the rifle. Inscriptions on a fired casing read, notices, bulges, capital OWO, what's this, question mark. Inscriptions on the three
unfired casings read, hey, fascist, exclamation point, catch.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: We are still waiting to hear when Charlie Kirk's funeral will take place. U.S. Vice President J. D. Vance, seen here, accompanied Kirk's
casket on Air Force Two from Utah to Phoenix, Arizona, where Kirk lived with his family. It's expected that Kirk will be laid to rest sometime next
week. President Trump says that whenever the funeral is held, he will be there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you going to go to Charlie Kirk's funeral, sir?
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I will be.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know when that will be?
TRUMP: I believe it's in Arizona, and they've asked me to go, and I think I have an obligation to do that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know when that will be?
TRUMP: I'm hearing -- I hear next weekend. Whenever it is, I'll be going.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: We're also following breaking news from NATO. The alliance has initiated an operation in response to Russia's drone incursion into Polish
airspace this week. NATO Chief Mark Rutte says the Eastern Sentry operation will start in the coming days and will involve assets from multiple NATO
nations, including the U.K., France, and Germany.
We'll continue to follow both of these breaking stories throughout the day. For now, "Amanpour" is up next.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WAEL AL-DAHDOUH, GAZA BUREAU CHIEF, AL JAZEERA (through translator): I said if it was inevitable for me to die now. I have to die standing up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Journalists on the frontlines. Al Jazeera's Gaza bureau chief Wael al-Dahdouh tells me about risking it all to report Israel's war.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no guarantee that Israel is ever cutting out of us alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: A family torn apart. I'm joined by a former Israeli hostage and the director who filmed the struggle to bring her home.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Michael Crow: What we've tried to build is an unbelievably accessible model in which finances will not be a barrier.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- innovating across higher education. Arizona State University president Michael Crow tells Walter Isaacson how he's changing the game.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
The week that derailed diplomacy with an Israeli strike in Qatar targeting Hamas leaders as they were trying to discuss the latest proposal to end the
war in Gaza and free the remaining hostages. Now, those desperately awaiting outcomes are left in limbo. And today, we hear from both, a former
hostage and a Palestinian journalist from Gaza.
[13:05:00]
First, as Israel pursues a full-scale invasion of Gaza City, those bearing witness for the world face ever greater danger. The Committee to Protect
Journalists counts at least 189 Palestinian journalists killed since October 7. At least 26 of those, it says, were directly targeted.
Al Jazeera has emerged as the dominant force chronicling Israel's offensive in Gaza, despite efforts to silence them. Ten of their journalists have
been killed in Israeli strikes. Israel accuses some of them of being terrorists without presenting any evidence. One man became the face of the
unimaginable horrors these journalists endure. Wael al-Dahdouh is Al Jazeera's Gaza bureau chief, and he joined me here in London.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Wael Al-Dahdouh, welcome to our program. You know, we're used to seeing you over there. You've become incredibly famous as the face of news
reporting in Gaza from the beginning. You have lost so many members of your family, your wife, your daughter, your son, your grandson. How did you
manage to keep going and to keep reporting after those losses?
WAEL AL-DAHDOUH, GAZA BUREAU CHIEF, AL JAZEERA (through translator): Definitely because of my love for this profession first, my deep conviction
and belief of the importance and impact of this profession, and it's a profession which is worth sacrificing for, but ultimately, it's something
we do for the humanity at large, for the profession of journalism. The whole world waits for our coverage to reach it at a time when it was meant
for Gaza to be kept in the dark, away from professional journalism.
And in the end, what do you expect from someone like me with all this determination to work and to do that in an objective way? And then, almost
his entire family are targeted and killed, and he sees his wife, his son, his grandson, and nine members of his family, apart from many neighbors,
who have all been targeted because of this profession. And do you want me to give up on them, to let them now? No, I will not give up on them. I'll
do it for the dignity of the sacrifices they have made.
AMANPOUR: And you said, it was the most difficult decision of my life to bury my family and then stand before the cameras, and you've explained why
you had to do that. I see your hand is still in a brace. What happened to your arm? It goes up to here, I think.
AL-DAHDOUH (through translator): This hand was injured while I was on a job, which was previously coordinated with the Israeli occupying forces
through the International Red Cross, and we were accompanied by medics from the Palestinian Red Crescent. When we went to the location, we did the
filming, we saw some tragic situations. That part of Khan Younis. We spent three hours there. When we decided to go back after finishing the job, we
were targeted by a missile from an Israeli drone. Three of the medics we were traveling with were killed, and my colleague, the cameraman, Samer Abu
Daqqa, was injured, and he was left there to bleed for six hours.
I lost my hearing temporarily and I lost consciousness, and I tried desperately to stand up and run away because we know by habit that there'll
soon be a second missile. I was looking for a place to take cover when I realized that I was covered in blood. My hand was injured. I couldn't help
my colleague and cameraman. I lost all hope of surviving, but I said if it was inevitable for me to die now, I have to die standing up, walking maybe.
Maybe I can make it to one of the ambulances which were some 800 meters away.
When I crawled there and got there, I said to them, please help my colleague, Samer. They said, it's impossible. We cannot make any moves
without prior coordination with the Israelis. The permission took six hours. By then it was too late. Samer couldn't make it. They took me to a
hospital. Then I buried Samer near where I buried my family and continued my job. This is my message. This is my mission.
[13:10:00]
Later on, my own son was targeted and killed, and I also continued, because ultimately there is no escaping this reality.
AMANPOUR: I want to get to the current reality, but first, I want to ask you, because you're no longer in Gaza, and yet, everything that you're
saying makes me believe that you wish you could still be there telling the story. And you said when you left, it was like being poisoned. Your family
persuaded you to leave finally in January 2024 after Hamza's funeral.
But you said, you know, this was too hard for me to leave. Tell me what you were feeling when you left the battlefield and left your dead family who
you'd buried.
AL-DAHDOUH (through translator): Maybe this was not less painful than the moment when I buried my family and then later on my son Hamza. It was a
horrific day. I adamantly refused to leave, but I have daughters, young daughters who need treatment, and I need the treatment. And many people
advised me, and many people were pressurizing me, saying, you have to leave. You have to do something for your daughters as well.
When I decided to leave, I felt as if the whole world had stopped moving, and I had to drink poison, and I'd never been in a situation like that or a
feeling like that. It never occurred to me before that I can leave this place, I can leave the people who I saw being shredded into pieces because
I was in this job and in this profession.
This is not easy, but I said, maybe it's God's will that I have to go now somewhere else, maybe to continue the mission somewhere else, and hopefully
manage to provide some treatment for my daughters, and maybe circumstances would one day allow us to return after the treatment.
AMANPOUR: While you became a hero, you became known all over the world. Al Jazeera journalists have become the heroes of the Muslim world. Hundreds of
millions of people are watching Al Jazeera, people like yourself, people like Anas Al-Sharif, who was also killed last month, others who are telling
these stories.
We obviously have told the story of Gaza through your eyes and your camera and your words because we cannot get in. So, you know, we, and frankly the
whole world, owes you a debt of gratitude. What do you say when there is, you know, certain Israeli newspapers have called a sort of a legitimization
project? In other words, every time one of you is killed, and there have been scores, the Israeli government says that they were Hamas, they were
paid by Hamas, they were militants, they were this, they were that? We haven't seen the evidence. But how does it make you feel that each and
every one of your colleagues are either killed in the crossfire or deliberately and then immediately targeted as criminals?
AL-DAHDOUH (through translator): Definitely, this is premeditated, deliberate killing. We started by seeing one or two journalists being
targeted. Later on, they started targeting groups of journalists. Anas Al- Sharif and Mohammed Qreiqeh and four others were targeted together in one tent. Then later on, they discovered the camera belonging to Reuters and
our colleague, Hussam Al-Masri, was there. They fired a tank round into where he was.
When people, civilians and medics and other colleagues went to help him, the same tank fired two more rounds and they ended up killing 22 people.
So, this is no coincidence when a journalist is clearly wearing a helmet, a flat jacket, and we always move in the open and the Israeli drones never
leave the skies. They know exactly who everyone is and where everyone is and there are no Israeli armies. There are not even civilians around
sometimes, then yet 250 journalists were killed. This cannot be a mistake.
[13:15:00]
First of all, they banned international journalists from coming to Gaza only to single us out because they want the eyes of the world not to see
what's happening, to report that to the world, not to cause Israel any embarrassment, not any ethical considerations, and maybe later on evidence
that can be used before an International Criminal Court or something.
You remember an Israeli investigative journalist who after the targeting of Anas al-Sharif and his friends said Israel had established a special unit
in the Israeli intelligence. Their sole job is to search for names, to prepare for killing them, and later on smear them and raise doubts about
them and say they're terrorists disguised as journalists. Yet, they've never presented any evidence to justify anything.
How can you justify the murder of 250 journalists? Have they ever had the kind of independent investigation? Have they allowed for international
observers? Have they allowed for anything to search into that? But we are being killed on just mere accusations and substantiated accusations.
We are journalists. We do not belong to anybody. We try to be professional. Even when we pay the heavy price we still stood before the camera in a
balanced way, professional way, away from emotions.
AMANPOUR: I wanted to ask you about journalists -- Palestinian journalists who are still there. But first, I want to ask you, look, Hamas, when it was
in power, is not exactly a democratic organization. It's a pretty, you know, authoritarian regime. And I just wondered whether you felt pressure
ever before October 7th or since October 7th because Hamas is watching you as well, they're there too. Are journalists also under pressure, not just
from Israel, but also from Hamas in Gaza? Was that difficult?
AL-DAHDOUH (through translator): This is a comparison when at times of war it's not applicable.
AMANPOUR: No, I mean even before.
AL-DAHDOUH (through translator): Hamas are not angels. Nobody is saying that. They are not without mistakes. Maybe they have committed mistakes
even towards the journalists. But does that justify the crimes Israel is committing against the Palestinian journalists? It's our misfortune that we
are under occupation. And therefore, the space we are moving in is all about what the Israeli army is doing.
So, we are doing our jobs. We're trying to do it with the utmost professionality without any pressures, neither from Hamas or anybody else.
There are aspects that we disagree with Hamas, but we will fight for our rights. We will not capitulate. We will not give in to any pressures. In
Gaza we try to do our job as best as we can. We cannot compare to anywhere else in the world. We never saw this number of journalists being killed.
AMANPOUR: And starved. By the way, even some of our Palestinian colleagues who work for BBC, CNN, Reuters, AP, you know, are also targeted and are
also having a really difficult time through lack of food, malnutrition, and all of that. So, I want to ask you, there are young journalists who are
still there, young Palestinian journalists who are still there.
And even as the Israelis prepare to invade Gaza City, I read an article about a young woman who is working for Al Jazeera who talked to her
colleagues about should we flee, should we stay, and decided to stay, you know, knowing what's happened to all of you, to tell the story, again, for
which we are very grateful and we are very angry and upset and we oppose the fact that we are not allowed in Gaza to help you report. But they're
doing it. Do you understand that, or do you think now, after two years, they should seek safety?
AL-DAHDOUH (through translator): Right from the start, nobody left us any space or hope or margin to choose safety in Gaza, the city of Gaza, or
anywhere else. Now, Gaza is surrounded completely. We have colleagues who have been injured, but they're not allowed to leave and get treatment. Some
of them are paralyzed now. And this gives you the impression as to how a journalist lives.
[13:20:00]
We cannot choose anything. Everything is imposed on us, all these obstacles, fear, tension, yet we are required to continue. Even if some
colleague, one of them, decides to choose safety, where can he go? He can't even attend to live in. If he goes to a hospital, the hospital will be
targeted. But our only consolation is the voice is still there, the image is still there, and it's still flowing, and the world is still in touch
with Gaza, despite Israel wanting to be isolated, and thanks to these efforts, although the price is very heavy and very painful for all of us.
AMANPOUR: You're right, it's thanks to you and all your colleagues there that the world knows what's going on. So, thank you for coming in here and
telling us your story.
AL-DAHDOUH (through translator): Thank you very much. God bless. And we hope that the world can do something, our colleagues, governments,
parliaments, news organizations, and peoples to do something to save journalists and to save humanity in Gaza.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Later in the program, a new documentary focuses on one Israeli hostage and her family's relentless effort to get her back, "Holding Liat,"
after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: And now, to the other side of this two-year bloodbath for Israeli hostage families' new fears after Israel's attack on Hamas negotiators in
Qatar, that remaining hostages could be killed in revenge. A new documentary, "Holding Liat," shows just how deep a torment these families
have endured since October 7th. It follows the family of Liat Benin Atzili, who goes through all the stages of grief as they fight relentlessly for her
return. Here's a little bit of a clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's no way of knowing how much longer this is going to go on. Who's holding her? Is she in a house? Is she in a cave? Is
she being fed? Does she have her glasses? The longer it takes, the harder it is to stay positive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no guarantee that either of them are cutting out of this alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We just got the first. And unfortunately, Liat is not on today's list.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want them back. What are you making it so you're so understanding about their considerations? They're playing games.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel your pain. I lost half of my family's children.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think every person in Israel, and I'm sure that on the Palestinian side, has someone that they have lost. So, how do you even
begin to coexist in that violent cycle?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your story is quite unusual. Can you talk about what you remember?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Liat herself and the film's director, Brandon Kramer, are joining me here in London. Welcome to the program. It is such an interesting film.
I'm going to get to your tragedy in a moment, but as a film, I don't know, what did you think even of that clip? Because they get your parents, your
sister, even some of your children, and warts and all.
[13:25:00]
I mean, Brandon captured it, warts and all. No sugarcoating, you know, the arguments, the tensions, the differing views about what was going on with
you.
LIAT BEININ ATZILI, FORMER HOSTAGE HELD IN GAZA AND HUSBAND WAS KILLED IN OCTOBER 7 HAMAS ATTACKS: I know my family well.
AMANPOUR: So, it wasn't a surprise.
ATZILI: It wasn't, it wasn't. They told me a lot of what had happened while I was away. But still seeing it for -- and seeing it for the first time on,
on film. It was, it was very, very emotional, and funny, and I was crying, and laughing, and it just, all of a sudden, everything came to life. And I
sort of got a deeper understanding and appreciation of what my family had been through, and what they'd done.
AMANPOUR: Yes. And I mean, you endured a tragedy. You endured 50-plus days of captivity. You were released in one of the deals that was struck
actually to return hostages, but your husband did not make it, and you had to come back to face that knowledge as well.
ATZILI: Yes. That -- obviously, that was the most difficult thing. There's a part in the movie where I addressed that, and that was also very
difficult for me to see. Again, I didn't remember feeling that way. I said that I can't deal with the fact that on, on the day that I returned, we
still thought that he might be alive, and that he was being held hostage. We just -- we found out that a day later that he'd been killed. So, that's
been very challenging to deal with that.
AMANPOUR: While you take a moment, let me ask you, Brandon, Aviv was killed. You somehow got this family to -- I want to know the mechanics of
how you managed to get inside the family in such an intimate and real-time way, as they were, you know, desperately seeking, you know, solutions to
their daughter's plight and their son-in-law's.
BRANDON KRAMER, DIRECTOR, "HOLDING LIAT": Yes. I mean, I'm very close with Liat's family. I've known them for over 20 years. And, you know, a week
after Liat and Aviv went missing, Liat's father, Liat's son, and Liat's sister all came to Washington, D.C., where my brother and I are documentary
filmmakers. And we started filming.
We thought it would just be a few days. You know, we thought we'd put something together really short. And as we were filming, we saw that what
they were experiencing was a story so drastically different than the story of the other hostages or hostage families that was being presented in the
media and on social media.
I mean, Liat's father was within days advocating for peace and reconciliation. Her son had barely survived the attack and was deeply
traumatized. Her sister didn't want politics to be a part of this at all. And here in front of our camera was three generations of one family
navigating their grief in different ways and their political differences.
AMANPOUR: It is, in that regard, remarkable. Particularly, I was stunned by how your father and mother and, you know, others did express those
immediately empathetic views of the people who had committed this horrendous act of terrorism and murder and kidnap against you. Obviously,
they weren't sympathizing with the perpetrators, but in general, with the Palestinian cause and rights. It's very hard even to talk about that today,
two years after, for many Israelis.
ATZILI: I think that one thing that's very fundamental in our makeup as people and certainly in our political makeup is that no matter what happens
to you, there's this moral guide that you don't let go of no matter how hard and how difficult the things that you're going through are. And I'm
glad that my family chose to deal with what happened and that their work to release me, to secure my release, was loyal to that.
AMANPOUR: You know, I'm going to play a little clip that emphasizes that in real time and in real life when you were, you know, starting this journey
with the family. So, this is your father, the father, who is in Senator Chris Van Hollen's office and he's talking about desperately wanting
information and movement on his, you know, daughter and son-in-law. And he expresses the day after wishes as well.
[13:30:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YEHUDA BEININ, FATHER OF LIAT BEININ ATZILI: In the name of my daughter and her husband as part of the hostage release, I think the most important
message after this is all over is the question, now what? The reconciliation with the Palestinians is probably the single most important
thing that can actually affect a change for the better in the long run.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Again, Brandon, I don't know about you, but for me, that's humbling.
KRAMER: Yes. I mean, look, you know, watching Yehuda, watching Liat, you know, we didn't know that Liat was going to come out when we started making
this film. And when she was released, we didn't know how you would feel. And, you know, the empathy that you've expressed obviously toward the
hostages that are still in Gaza, but also toward Palestinians that are suffering, for me as a filmmaker and a storyteller, it was a profound thing
to document the story of somebody that has suffered what you've suffered, 54 days in captivity, losing your husband and still emerging with the
ability to look on the other side of the fence and care.
AMANPOUR: Liat, tell us, it's documented in the film, obviously, and it's, you know, some of the most compelling testimony as well, how you survived,
what happened when you were ripped from your house, your son was still there. You didn't know what had happened to your husband because he was a
first responder. In the end, he didn't survive. Where were you taken and how were you treated for those 54 days?
ATZILI: I was taken to Khan Younis, which is a city in the Gaza Strip. And I was taken to the home of one of the people who kidnapped me from my home.
And I met his family there. And I think they were a little bit surprised that their son came back from wherever with this woman. And they treated me
very well.
I think it's still an unusual story. A lot of the other hostages obviously weren't treated as well. And we've seen terrible pictures and heard
horrible stories about what other people have gone through. But I was incredibly lucky in that I was treated well by this family. And then, also,
when I was transferred to other people, they also managed to provide basic needs. And they saw that as part of their -- I don't know, their job in
guarding me and another woman who I was with. They kept saying that it was their job to keep us healthy and to keep us well until we were released in
a deal. So, a lot of luck.
AMANPOUR: A lot of luck.
ATZILI: Yes.
AMANPOUR: A lot of luck in a terrible situation. Did you get the impression that they didn't know about the operation?
ATZILI: They know about the operation, but I did get the impression that they didn't understand to a full extent what had happened.
AMANPOUR: And did you have sort of religious or political discussions?
ATZILI: Yes. Well, we were four people in an apartment and they weren't hostile towards us and they were interested in talking. And also, I was
very curious about. I mean, when I stopped being afraid, I became -- I let my curiosity about life in the Gaza Strip, I let that go. And I just --
AMANPOUR: Asked all these questions.
ATZILI: Yes. I asked all the things that had always interested me about life there.
AMANPOUR: We'll get to that in a moment because the end of the film is just remarkable about your view of life there. But while this was happening and
Liat was in this condition inside, you were outside now filming her parents in D.C. as we've seen, and also at home inside Israel. So, the second clip
I want to play is of actually Liat's sister and she goes to visit two congresspeople as well, but she has a much different attitude to your
father. Let's play it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAL BEININ, LIAT BEININ ATZILI'S SISTER: I hate this, really. I don't like asking for help. I think also everybody that we've met with is doing all
they can. So, I'm not exactly sure what the point is. I mean, I'll do it, you know, because if it's for my sister, I'll do it. But it's just not my
preferred way of helping.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: I mean, she's a firecracker. She's also a reluctant warrior in this case. Give me a deeper sense of what you learned about, you know,
Liat's sister.
[13:35:00]
KRAMER: Well, I mean, Liat's sister is an incredible person and an incredible sister dedicated to you. And I think for me, what was so
interesting was her relationship with her nephew and with her father, you know, being able to -- they're in the absolute worst days of their entire
life. This is, you know, days after Liat and Aviv are missing, and they opened up their lives to myself and our camera, which is an incredibly
difficult thing to do. I mean, we're literally sleeping on the floor outside their hotel room so we can film the 2:00 a.m. phone calls that
they're getting from the IDF.
AMANPOUR: It's incredible.
KRAMER: We're filming conversations between a father and a daughter disagreeing about how to get Liat home and their political differences,
which is a very sensitive thing. And I think, you know, these kind of fractures and disagreements happen with families all over the world, the
difference for them was that Liat and Aviv's lives were on the line. And so, instead of keeping those differences apart, they were forced to
confront them. And my hope is with this film, it allows audiences to bear witness to people dealing with grief in different ways and confronting
those differences.
AMANPOUR: And also, you even got into bedrooms. I mean, there's a scene with, you know, your father and mother on a bed having a bit of an argument
as well. Again, it's just so intimate and so utterly revealing.
When you saw this -- OK. So, when you came out, that was also amazing, the scenes of the reunion. You were, you know, embracing, obviously, everybody,
including your children. A special place for your sister as well. I mean, you guys obviously get on so well. And then by contrast -- contrast and not
contrast -- I was struck also about the funeral you then had for Aviv and how you talked about him, that it seemed to me like an impromptu speech
that you made right there for everybody about the value of his life. And then the dancing. I mean, how does somebody do that?
ATZILI: Aviv, I think it's evident in the movie, he's a wonderful and very, very special person. And the day before the funeral, there was an event
that was supposed to be to raise awareness to the -- to our release, and it ended up being sort of in Aviv's memory. And my oldest son, Ofri, read
something that he wrote on that occasion, and he said something about Aviv being the worst dancer in the world.
AMANPOUR: So, you got everybody to dance?
ATZILI: Yes. So, that -- it was just -- and Aviv and I had a lot of discussions about death. And we decided on the music that we wanted played
at each other's funerals. And then I spoke to the kids, and I said, you know, look, we discussed this before, and this is what we thought. But
after what Ofri said, I have a different idea, and how are you with that? And they said, well, yes, I mean, of course.
AMANPOUR: It's joyous.
ATZILI: Yes, we have to play that song. We have to dance. We have to do what he would have wanted us to do.
AMANPOUR: You are a history teacher.
ATZILI: Yes.
AMANPOUR: You took your high school class to Yad Vashem, the Holocaust Memorial in Israel, and you told them a story about that -- if I can't talk
about it, I don't know who's going to be able to talk about it. Anyway, let me gather myself, because it's really profound.
KRAMER: We've shed a lot of tears together through this process. So, you're in good company.
AMANPOUR: You told them the story, the historical story about the ghetto in Warsaw where the Jews were confined, and you said, behind a fence. And
while it was burning, the other Poles just watched it burning and didn't do anything. And then, there's a picture of you sitting near the Gaza fence,
or you're talking about the Gaza fence, and you're talking about what is, you know, over the fence and what you all should or shouldn't or will or
won't be thinking. Just explain that, because it's an amazing phenomenon.
ATZILI: Well, I was telling my students about a poem by the Polish poet Czeslaw Milosz, and he talks about that in the poem about the Warsaw ghetto
going up in flames. And actually, the connection between that and between the fence, between Israel and the Gaza Strip, is something that I had
spoken about with students of mine years before. They'd been on a trip to Poland with me.
[13:40:00]
And months afterwards, I asked them, you know, what the most memorable thing about the trip was. And one of them said that the indifference of
people to other people's suffering, that she found that very, very troubling. And then she said, but we live near a fence, and nobody thinks
about what's going on behind that fence. And that's something that just stuck with me, and it seemed very, very appropriate ever since to our
situation.
And it can go in so many different directions. I mean, obviously, in the direction of the suffering in the Gaza Strip, but also in the direction of
the political process that's been happening there and the things that led up to October 7th. And that's also something that we weren't aware of.
Like, on the one hand, the terrible suffering, but on the other hand, that there was a monster being created on the other side of that fence, and now
we have to deal with it. We cannot with everything.
AMANPOUR: Well, this film is, I hope, and I feel is going to open a lot of people's eyes, not just for the humanity of what you've been discussing in
your own story, but for the bigger story as well. So, you know, Liat, thank you so much for being here. And, Brandon, congratulations. Well done on a
really moving and exceptional film.
KRAMER: Thank you so much for having us.
ATZILI: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Incredibly, after that conversation, Liat told me that she's refurbished her devastated house in Nir Oz and is moving back to that
kibbutz, hoping to create a new community there. Now, "Holding Liat" is out in the U.K. today, and it'll be released in the United States in January.
And we'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TRUMP: And now, Trump's clashes with American universities. His administration announced plans to cut $350 million in federal grants to
colleges and universities serving large minority student populations, unilaterally declaring these programs to be unconstitutional.
Michael Crow is the Arizona State University, recently ranked the most innovative school in the country. Crow believes universities should be
driving social and economic progress, and he spoke with Walter Isaacson to explain why and how. This conversation took place before the shooting of
conservative activist Charlie Kirk on a university campus in Utah.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER ISAACSON, CO-HOST, AMANPOUR AND CO.: Thank you, Christiane. And Dr. Michael Crow. Welcome to the show.
MICHAEL CROW, PRESIDENT, ARIZONA STATE UNIVERSITY: Hey, Walter, nice to see you.
ISAACSON: For two decades now, you've led Arizona State University, the largest public university in the country. One reason it's so big is you
were early on big on remote learning, on Zoom and virtual classrooms. After COVID, a lot of universities experimented with that sort of thing and went
way back to more in-person learning.
[13:45:00]
What did you learn from all of this? And to what extent are you adjusting how much should be in-person?
CROW: Well, Walter, you know, it's a complicated thing. We live in a country of approaching 350 million people in which we have a limited set of
institutions and low levels of access to lifelong education, in fact, low levels of access to university education and underperforming and all kinds
of other things.
And so, the lesson that we learned in COVID was that if you have a great faculty matched with unbelievable innovations, matched with unbelievable
drive to continue to innovate, you can find ways to reach learners literally everywhere with the highest level of quality learning products
possible. And so, that's what we really learned is that it can all work if you've got a dedicated faculty and a continuous stream of innovations.
ISAACSON: So, what are those continuous streams of innovations when it comes to remote learning? How have you tweaked or even revolutionized the
process?
CROW: Well, first, we've built an innovative culture in our faculty, which allows them to be open to the process of innovation. Second, we found 400
learning technologies that we could enhance, build, further the innovative process. We've brought all those things together. We've then found a
dedicated energy focusing on the learner themselves. We believe in the theories of abundance that human beings have unbelievable potential.
And then with these tools, with these learning tools, and with this dedicated faculty, what we found is, I'll give you an example, you know,
this year we'll have 35,000 engineering students. And when we started this process, we had 6,000 engineering students. We found new ways to teach
calculus, new ways to teach biology, new ways to teach chemistry, enabling all the people who want to be an engineer to be able to be an engineer.
That only comes through innovation in this process.
ISAACSON: One of the things you've done at ASU is called the Sky Song, I think it is in which you actually try to take research and translate it
into technology, into real commercial things. That used to not be done much at big universities. And then, I think at the beginning of the '70s, it
started happening. Tell me how important government investment in basic research is, and then allowing you to translate that into commercial
products.
CROW: Well, I mean, it's unbelievably important. I mean, one of the books that you wrote about, the CRISPR Nobel Prize with Jennifer Doudna, was this
whole thing about, you know, decades and decades and decades of fundamental research on enzymes, on chemistry, on proteins, on computational systems,
on imaging systems, and so forth. Thousands and thousands of research groups, tens of thousands of papers, hundreds of patents. All these things
allow someone like her, who you've spent a lot of time studying and understanding, to even exist.
Steve Jobs, the person you wrote an entire book about, you know, all of his creativity and his design and his genius. If you dissect and chop up the
iPhone 16, it is, in fact, built on a platform of fundamental science, academic science, academic outcomes. Even Jobs said this himself. I mean,
he was a genius of design, a genius of creativity, a genius of making things happen, of overcoming opposition. But what was he building? He was
building from the threads of a fabric that had been a hundred years, at least, academically driven, and then even longer than that.
ISAACSON: Well, explain how basic research did help lead to the iPhone.
CROW: Well, if you look at something like the iPhone 16, it's got billions of transistors on the present chip. The first transistor was 1947. The
first transistor was derivative of basic physics, basic math, basic computational science, basic material sciences. You couldn't design it, you
couldn't build it, you couldn't conceptualize it without that fundamental science. And that's --
ISAACSON: So, you've got a semiconductor research facility at ASU that's designed to do just that, and yet the Commerce Department just cut most of
the money out, right? ' CROW: That maneuver -- so we won in the Chips and Science Act. We won a major new lab with NIST. We won one-eighth of the new Defense Department
lab called the Microelectronics Commons. We won the State Department's funded project to secure the supply chain training. We won a $270 million
project funded by Applied Materials, a company all designed to build new underpinnings for semiconductors.
And then, this thing that got started late in the Biden administration called Natcast got stood up, and then they picked three places to build new
national labs. We won one of those. Secretary Lutnick has just decided to pull that back into the government. I don't know if that's -- you know, the
exact status of that.
And so, what we're going to do is we're going to continue to fight to do everything we can to make sure that the United States is continues as this
epicenter of innovation, academic research, industrial research, training, advanced people, advanced ideas in all things related to semiconductors,
all things digital, because that's on, you know, so much of what the future economy is going to be based on.
[13:50:00]
ISAACSON: Well, more broadly than just this lab, are you worried about the National Science Foundation and other funding cuts into basic research that
used to be funded by government?
CROW: Well, what I'm worried about is it's one thing to take the Legos apart because you want to have them shaped in a new form to drive the
country forward into more success. Right now, the cautionary note I would give to the people that are doing that is you're melting some of those
Legos and you're breaking this fundamental process.
And so, it's interesting to me to think about, you know, wanting to be the best economy, wanting the United States to be the most successful, and then
taking this foundational thing, what I've called previously the invisible hand, this invisible hand of academic science, which underpins all these
other things. I heard President Trump on the news talking about being the A.I. leaders and so forth and so on. Well, yes, OK.
Well, that requires people, chips, science, technology, algorithms, new math, new tools, new ways of thinking about things. There's nothing that's
static that keeps you as the best. The thing that keeps you as the best is this unbelievable drive to innovate. And so, the unbelievable drive to
innovate in the modern world is heavily driven by academic science. I mean, in fact, it is the essential ingredient from which the massive integrated
innovators have any promise of even being successful.
ISAACSON: One of the reasons for the cuts in federal funding to research universities, perhaps, is the public disaffection somehow with
universities, whether it be the elites like Harvard or Columbia or state universities like yours, UCLA or whatever. What is the cause of this public
disaffection and what are you doing about it?
CROW: Well, my own view of this, and I've written a lot about this myself, is that the public disaffection comes from two things. One, disappointment.
Most people that go to college don't graduate and they feel resentful. Most people that have debt have no diploma or degree, and that's on us. We
should have not allowed that to happen.
A second thing that's going on is that the universities, I think in their rhetoric and their projection, haven't always shown fidelity to the success
of the United States. And so, more of a global approach to the world, which is fine. And so, there's some of that going on. And I think also --
ISAACSON: But wait, let me back that up. Unpack that for me. Not fidelity to the success of the United States. You're meaning they're less patriotic
than they should be?
CROW: Not patriotic as much. It's sort of like if we're going to be involved in research, yes, we want the world to be a better place, but we
need American corporations to be successful. We need the American military to be a good defensive shield for the United States. And so, that means we
have to talk like that. Also, we have to be focused on those kinds of things.
At the same time as there's this shared disaffection, the demand for the services from the colleges, the desire for people to have their children
educated at the highest possible level has never been higher. Our enrollment, we have a 5 percent increase in enrollment this year over last
year.
We have unbelievable demand for our services. We have people breaking our doors down to want to be here from all over the world. 166 countries are
represented here. We've got all this going on. And so, we've got what I think is institutional instability because we need to do more, take more
responsibility, and produce better outcomes for the United States.
ISAACSON: A lot of universities brag about how low their acceptance rate is. In other words, they only accept 10, 12 percent of the people who
apply. You, I think, brag about the opposite, that you accept as many possible, 90 percent of the people who apply. Why that different approach?
CROW: Well, so somewhere in the United States, you've got to have a standard for admission to a university, which is based on what
qualifications do you need to give you some chance of success. And so, we went back to the admission standards of the University of California from
1950. And there you needed a B average in high school. You needed to take certain high school courses. You need to get at least a B in those courses,
and then you're admitted. Those are our admission standards.
We get lots of A students also. We get lots of kids like you, you know, coming out of New Orleans, going to Harvard, you know, doing really well
and so forth. We get those kids also. There's only so many slots for those kinds of -- for those students. So, we have a big honors college, about
8,000 students, which looks a lot like Columbia's undergraduate college, where I used to be a faculty member.
And so -- but at the same time, we're not going to say that we're a better university because we didn't admit these fully qualified students. We also
have taken one additional step, which is if you're not qualified for whatever reason, you know, your family had a catastrophic event when you
were in high school. You made some mistake when you were in high school. You didn't take the right courses. You goofed off. You were a screw off or
whatever. You know, we have a pathway for you to earn your way in.
So, some of the great research universities in the U.S., of which we are one of those, need to also be maintaining this notion of egalitarian access
in the true spirit of the democracy. Otherwise, we end up with a distorted outcome of only the hyper, hyper qualified students from high school being
able to go to college and succeed at college. And if we end up that way, then the democracy is not going to be successful.
[13:55:00]
ISAACSON: Is there some lesson there for navigating the world after affirmative action, after the Supreme Court has said race-based affirmative
action is bad?
CROW: Well, we didn't even read the ruling because we admit every qualified student. And so, if you're qualified, you're in. If you're not qualified,
we find a way to get you qualified. And so, for your big public research universities, your public regional universities, your community colleges,
others that are really taking the lion's share of the educational challenge for the future of our country, you know, you don't want any admission
criteria other than what is the qualification for attendance.
Then you have to deal with the issue of income disparity. And, you know, most kids don't come from families that are particularly well-prepared to
pay for college. So, we work very hard to be able to still have -- I should have mentioned that University of California in 1950 had this B-level
admission standard. They also had no tuition. Their tuition was free.
Now, we have a fantastic financial aid package to make sure that people are not left out for financial reasons. So, the only criteria that we look at
for admissions is, are you qualified to perform university-level work? If you are, you're admitted. And then we find a way for you to finish. We find
a job for you. We find a pathway to a scholarship for you. We find a way for you to be successful. And that's allowed us to go from, you know, 8,000
graduates a year to 40,000 graduates a year.
ISAACSON: It used to be, you mentioned it happened at the University of California, but all over the country, including when my dad went to
university, you went to a public state university, it was basically free.
CROW: Yes.
ISAACSON: Now, it costs a lot. Should we go in this new knowledge-based age like we did 100 years ago where we made high school universal and free?
Should we make access to public universities free?
CROW: I don't like the word free. What I like the word is accessible. The concept is accessible. And so, what we need is we need a way where there's
not a financial barrier. You have a way to take this next step. It turns out that, you know, college students are emerging adults. Emerging adults
need to understand that nothing is free. And so -- and that you have to take responsibility for what you want to do with yourself. You have to
invest in yourself.
So, we need an investment-based model. We need an ownership-based model. Also, in high school, you're required to go. And so -- until at least a
certain age in certain states. College is still your choice. And so, what we've tried to build is an unbelievably accessible model in which finances
will not be a barrier. 17,000 students work for us.
They have -- we're thinking that at some point with so many other learners that we're attached to, there's some possibility that all of the 80,000
students that are here with us or the 100,000 students that are here with us, they won't have any tuition costs because they'll all be working as a
part of a learning machine where we're educating many, many other people in addition to the people that are privileged enough to be able to be here
with us.
And so, we see an expansion of this kind of model as being a viable way to move this university forward.
ISAACSON: Dr. Michael Crow, thank you so much for joining us.
CROW: Thank you, Walter.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: An ongoing conversation over universities. That's it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it
airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thanks for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
