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Amanpour

Interview with Egyptian Foreign Minister Badr Abdelatty; Interview with Nobel Peace Prize Winner and Venezuelan Opposition Leader Maria Corina Machado; Interview with The Atlantic Editor in Chief Jeffrey Goldberg. Aired 1-2p ET

Aired October 15, 2025 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: If they don't disarm, we will disarm them. And it'll happen quickly and perhaps violently.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: As the Gaza ceasefire agreement moves to phase two, there's already a hold up on phase one. Israel slows aid deliveries after Hamas

fails to release the bodies of all deceased hostages. So, what happens next? I ask the Egyptian Foreign Minister Badr Abdelatty, a central player

in the negotiations.

Then we hear directly from Maria Corina Machado, the Venezuelan opposition leader who won the Nobel Peace Prize, about bringing democracy as American

forces gather against her country.

And --

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFFREY GOLDBERG, EDITOR IN CHIEF, THE ATLANTIC: America is a wonderful country, a wonderful experiment, that sometimes it's made bad mistakes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: -- Walter Isaacson speaks with the editor of The Atlantic, Jeffrey Goldberg, about America's own unfinished revolution.

Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

Donald Trump declared that phase two of the Gaza ceasefire has begun, which calls for the establishment of an interim government in Gaza and for the

formation of a multinational security force. But Trump acknowledges that, quote, "the job is not done on phase one."

After Hamas missed the 72-hour deadline for handing over the bodies of all remaining hostages, Israel responded by reducing the humanitarian aid

allowed into Gaza. For now, the ceasefire is holding, but the U.N. reports that the Israeli military, quote, "continues" to kill civilians around the

areas to which it has redeployed in Gaza. And Hamas is reasserting its control in areas where Israel has pulled back.

As negotiations continue in Egypt, key questions are still unanswered. Will Hamas disarm? Will this deal lead to a lasting peace between Israel and the

Palestinians? Egypt is playing a major role in helping to secure and stabilize Gaza. And I spoke about all of this with the foreign minister,

Badr Abdelatty.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Foreign Minister Abdelatty, welcome to our program.

BADR ABDELATTY, EGYPTIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Thank you so much for hosting me.

AMANPOUR: Foreign Minister, you know, there was so much hope and excitement over the ceasefire, and you all worked very hard to bring it,

but it seems to be hitting some snags already. Can you give us an update? Because I think the Rafah Crossing, which is between you and the Gaza

Strip, for aid may not yet be open. The Israelis say that the Hamas have not released all the deceased, you know, the remains of the hostages that

they must. Can you tell us what's going to happen and what is -- what's the situation?

ABDELATTY: Well, first of all, we are extremely happy with what happened over the last few days with American leadership, with the direct

involvement of President Trump. We've been able to reach this agreement in Sharm el-Sheikh. And two days ago, President Trump was there with leaders

from all over the world in the City of Peace, and it was a big event, a big celebration, and the mediators signed an important document for ending the

war in Gaza.

We are now in the process of implementing first phase of the agreement, and then we have to start negotiating on the second phase. For phase one, I

mean, things is -- are moving well, especially with regard to the release of all hostages. As you know, and we told the American side that as for the

remains of the bodies, I mean, that collecting the remains will take some time because they are under rubbles and you have a lot of explosive

materials, devices under the rubble, so reaching them will be a bit difficult but we are doing our utmost efforts on the ground in order to

collect the deceased bodies and to hand them over to the Israeli side in implementation of the agreement of Sharm el-Sheikh phase one.

But we are expecting, of course, the flow of humanitarian aid into Gaza, opening of the crossings as soon as possible, and that's very important.

And then to focus on the second phase, which will not be easy, it will be difficult. But with the political commitment, with the involvement of

President Trump and the United States, with the interest of the international cooperation, I believe that we can reach another agreement on

phase two and then clear the way forward for a final conclusion to this conflict, the Palestinian problem, which is considered the core of the

conflict in our region.

AMANPOUR: Exactly. Mr. Foreign Minister, do you -- have you got assurances from Israel that they understand what you've just said, that this might

take some time because we're getting some quite strong demands from an unhappy Israel that the bodies have not yet been returned in totality? And

also, do you believe that the Rafah Crossing will be open tomorrow?

AMANPOUR: Well, first of all, I mean, we have daily channels of communications with the Israelis and we are informing them. Secondly,

during the meeting between President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi and President Trump in Sharm el-Sheikh the day before, you know, we conveyed the same

message. President Sisi spoke very openly that there are some impediments on the ground and we need to do extra efforts to find and to discover and

to collect the remains of the bodies in order to be able to return back them to the Israeli side as soon as possible because this part of the deal,

of course.

As for the opening of the Rafah Crossing, as we're always saying, it's open from the Egyptian side 24/7. And we are working with the Israelis to open

their crossings also with Gaza and to allow the flow of materials, humanitarian aid, medical aid because the situation on the ground is

catastrophic and we need literally to flood Gaza with food and with relief materials and the medical equipments and the materials, of course.

AMANPOUR: Foreign Minister, because it's all so new, everybody is looking at what's happening on the ground, so President Trump said in front of all

of you, I believe, or in public, that they would allow Hamas to essentially police the situation on the ground for a period of time until, I suppose,

there's another police force that stood up or a stabilization force. In the meantime, pictures have emerged of Hamas essentially executing certain

people on the ground.

What do you think that's all about and do you think Hamas will seize the opportunity to stay as the de facto armed force there, because they haven't

been disarmed? Obviously, President Trump also says they must be disarmed and if they're not, they'll be forcibly disarmed. Where do you see that?

ABDELATTY: Well, Christiane, two issues here. Number one is the issue of security arrangement and we are working very hard on that by providing

training to the Palestinian policemen and up to 5,000 troops in cooperation with Jordan in order to be able to deploy them in Gaza as well as relying

on the Palestinian policemen who are staying at homes in Gaza. And if we are vetting them and selecting those who are 40 years or under, we can have

another 5,000 elements so in total we can have 10,000 policemen on the ground who will be entrusted with issues related to law enforcement and

policing Gaza, of course.

[13:10:00]

The second issue is related to what was agreed upon, what was stipulated in the Trump peace plan. And as you know, Hamas announced that it's welcoming

this peace plan. So, we need to move forward for phase two with all its elements and we hope and we are looking forward that the two parties will

honor their commitments according to this important agreement, because enough is enough.

You know, we -- President Trump announced at the end of this war that should be very clear to everybody we cannot allow the resumption of

hostilities again. People paid a very, very heavy price with hundreds of thousands of people who've been injured with at least 70,000 people being

killed, so -- suffering in Gaza and that's why we have to look to the future and to see this golden opportunity in order to implement and to work

forward for agreeing on, first of all, implementing all elements of phase one, negotiating and agreeing on phase two and then we must look to the

political horizon which will, of course, lead to the two-state solution and that will put an end to the suffering of the Palestinians and bringing an

end to this chapter of conflict, of problems and we are confident that President Trump with his determination, with his leadership, with his

commitment, we believe that he can do it.

AMANPOUR: And, Foreign Minister, because that was not, you know, written down in black and white, the idea of a Palestinian State and how it's going

to happen, people have said, oh, well, you know, there's a lot of wishful thinking and a lot of nice words that have been written in the 20-point

plan but the real struggle will be this final phase, as you just lay it out, because it has defied any resolution for all these decades.

So, are you convinced as Egypt's foreign minister that this absolutely part of the plan? That because Benjamin Netanyahu has said, we -- you know, we

want to bury any idea -- you know, him and his coalition have spoken against a Palestinian State throughout this war and beyond. So, do you

think that finally they and the Americans and the stakeholders believe that this part of this 20-point plan with, I don't know, a Security Council

resolution or a formal negotiating process to bring about a two-state solution?

ABDELATTY: Well, as you know, we have stages and we have phases. So, first of all, ending the war, allow food to enter into Gaza, no annexation, no

displacement. And then we have to talk about early recovery and reconstructions of Gaza and we will do it. We are planning to host a

conference next month, next month in November here in Cairo with the participation of all stakeholders including, of course, the United States

with its leadership, including U.N., World Bank, European Union, Germany, France, Gulf Cooperation Councils, all Gulf countries, Japan and others.

Everybody is fully committed to participate in this very important conference.

And, of course, we are moving, as I mentioned, step by step. And we believe that in order to bring an end to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, the only

game in town will be, of course, the establishment of -- or the realization of the Palestinian State.

Don't forget the fact that in New York a few weeks ago during UNGA, during the United Nations General Assembly session, 142 countries voted in favor

of the two-state solution with Saudi-French initiative. So, let's look to the future and let's move one by one, phase -- step by step. What's

important now to save the life of the people, to bring them food, to bring them shelter and then to talk about statehood that's in the Trump peace

plan as well as the political horizon which is already on the President Trump peace plan.

[13:15:00]

AMANPOUR: And final question. I hear you saying, with the involvement of President Trump and his continued involvement. I think everybody knows that

the president has huge leverage, and as long as he stays on the issue, it could reap benefits. It was also notable that Prime Minister Netanyahu did

not attend the Sharm el-Sheikh peace summit.

And there are those in your region who are concerned that he has managed to use military power in all the nations that are problem nations for Israel,

but they say maybe he doesn't have a strategy and he's not willing for peace, that it's constantly mowing the lawn, as they say, and resorting to

military power when they want. What's your analysis, given that you have a peace agreement with Israel? What's your analysis of Israel's intentions?

ABDELATTY: Well, I cannot speak on behalf of Israel. We have our peace treaty with Israel, and we are fully committed to the agreement, the

treaty, of course, as long as the Israeli side is fully committed as well, and things is, I mean, clear on that.

Secondly, I can assure you that the mighty power cannot bring stability or security to any country or to the region. We must have a just,

comprehensive settlement to this conflict, which will respond positively to the aspiration, the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian State. They

have the full right -- the Palestinian people, sorry, and they have the full right to have their own independent, viable Palestinian State.

And thirdly, as I mentioned, it's all about the involvement and commitments of the United States and President Trump. He's the only person who is

capable and able and to implement this plan. And, of course, on ending this war and not to resume it again. And we have full confidence on his own

commitment, and this what His Excellency President Sisi conveyed to President Trump the day before, that we have faith, we have confidence on

President Trump's commitment in order to deliver, in order to make sure that all parties will abide by their commitments. And, of course, to -- I

mean, abide by the rules of the games, the game of ending the war, of looking to the future, of having peace, prosperity.

Mighty power cannot bring peace or security to any country. We must have integration, regional integration. We are ready for integration. We are

ready for normalization. Many Arab and Muslim countries are waiting, are standing ready for normalization with Israel as long as we are settling the

Palestinian cause based on the parameters agreed by the International Community and in the heart, of course, the realization of the Palestinian

State, which will live in peace and harmony with Israel and providing security, safety, stability to all peoples, including, of course, the

Israeli people and the Palestinian people.

We are tired, Christiane. We are, there is a fatigue, you know, so we must move forward with settling down this conflict. And that's why the only game

in town is President Trump's peace plan. And we -- yes, the day before in Sharm el-Sheikh, the International Community, European countries, Arab

countries, Muslim countries, everybody and even Latin American countries, Asian countries, they were there and they said that we are in full support

and backing of President Trump and his efforts to put an end to the suffering of the Palestinians and to put an end to this conflict. And we

have full confidence on the ability of President Trump to do that.

AMANPOUR: Well, it could really become something really, really special and I hope all your confidence is realized because it's an amazing moment.

So, Foreign Minister Badr Abdelatty, thank you very much for joining us.

ABDELATTY: Thank you so much for hosting me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Stay with CNN. We'll be right back after the break.

[13:20:00]

AMANPOUR: Now, my next guest, Venezuelan opposition leader, Maria Corina Machado, was just awarded the 2025 Nobel Peace Prize for her tireless work

promoting democratic rights for the people of Venezuela. That was the citation.

In 2024, when the Nicolas Maduro regime blocked Machado from running for president, she supported the alternative campaign of Edmundo Gonzalez. The

pro-Maduro election board, though, called the race for him, despite extensive evidence showing that Gonzalez was the true winner.

Now, the Trump administration has labeled Maduro a narco-terrorist. Yesterday, the White House launched a lethal strike on an alleged drug

boat, the fifth such strike since September. Machado dedicates her Nobel Prize to the suffering people of Venezuela and to President Trump for his

decisive support of our cause. She lives in hiding inside Venezuela, and she joins us now.

Welcome to the program, Maria Corina Machado. Welcome.

MARIA CORINA MACHADO, NOBEL PEACE PRIZE WINNER AND VENEZUELAN OPPOSITION LEADER: Thank you very much.

AMANPOUR: So, how do you feel? Because you have been toiling for all these years in danger, you know, to try to change the system in Venezuela. How do

you feel about this moment?

MACHADO: Well, we are very honored, grateful and excited because it's a recognition for a whole society that over 26 years has worked tirelessly,

has struggled and has suffered much, much harm from a tyranny. That it's not a conventional dictatorship, it is a criminal structure, a narco-

terrorist structure that has taken over our country, our institutions, our resources, that has brought poverty intentionally and had made a third of

our population the largest migration crisis in the world. A third of our population has been forced to flee.

And, Christiane, so, we have done great things together. We have worked civically. We won an election last year, a presidential election, even

though it was in very unfair, extreme conditions. And this a confirmation that the world is supporting the cause for democracy and freedom in our

region.

AMANPOUR: And you're in hiding. You know, we're not revealing your location, but you are in Venezuela, which is pretty extraordinary given

your situation. Do you think that this Nobel somehow puts a further shield around you? And how will you use it, the recognition? And I assume -- I'm

not sure, but I think there's money that comes with, it in the struggle?

MACHADO: Well, I do think it increases the cost for the -- of the regime to further harm me. After we won the elections a few hours afterwards, I

was accused of terrorism and all these, all the crimes you can imagine from the regime. You know, the worst repression wave was unleashed. We are

talking about thousands and thousands of volunteers that were disappeared or in prison. Their homes were marked with crosses just because they were

defending the vote.

[13:25:00]

The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights have called this terrorism of state. The Fact-Finding Mission of the United Nations have called these

crimes against humanity. I'm talking about even children that were in prison, women tortured and abused just because they defended their votes.

So, of course, we're all under, you know, great harm. There are over 850 prisoners of war that are -- you know, are healers under Maduro's strength.

And this a difficult moment. But I am absolutely convinced that we are finally at the threshold of freedom and democracy because finally all

vectors are aligned. And the regime is weaker than ever, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: Can I ask you, do you ever feel fear? You don't sound it. You don't look it. But there must be a huge amount of pressure. That's one

question. And the related question is, how do you lead a movement from the shadows? And do you think the opposition is now even more united?

MACHADO: Oh, certainly our country is more united than ever. You know, I dare to say there's no other society in our region, perhaps in the world,

as cohesive as Venezuelan society. I mean, think about this, 90 percent of our population wants the same, not only Maduro to go, but we want our

children back home. We want a country in which we can live with dignity, in which we are equal in face of the law. In a country in which you can speak

out, in which you can work with solidarity and generosity. We have teared down the barriers Chavismo had built to divide our society.

I mean, Venezuela has no religious tensions, racial differences, regional differences, economic or social. I mean, that's why I insist that this

going to be, even though a great challenge, because the country has been devastated economically and institutionally and turned into a -- you know,

the criminal hub of the region, this going to be an orderly transition because that's what the people want. And the center is the people. So,

that's my answer to you.

And I have so much trust in the Venezuelan people that I know this will have huge impact in the region, Christiane. Cuba, Nicaragua will fall as

well. I mean, this a unique moment for the Americas.

AMANPOUR: So, you're not afraid then. And, you know, Maduro called you -- what did he call you? A demonic witch when he heard about you being awarded

this. You call him soulless. Do you think they dare to hurt you?

MACHADO: Oh, yes, I do. They are there. They would dare to do anything to stay in power. But at the end, as we speak, he's more isolated than ever,

not only locally. I mean, internally. Even -- he doesn't even trust the armed forces or the police. This crazy idea, which is all fake about, you

know, arming militias is because he doesn't trust the military.

Over 80 percent of the armed forces are with us. They are also suffering hunger and humiliation and they want to be part of a secure nation. You

know, a country that can open our arms and you will see something. And this very important. You know, the day Maduro goes out, we will see hundreds of

thousands of Venezuelans coming back home from everywhere, from everywhere.

AMANPOUR: So, let me dive into that part then, the day Maduro goes out. As you know, and you've talked about it, you just called him the top of a

terror -- a narco terrorist state. And so, does the Trump administration call it a narco terrorist state led by a narco terrorist regime. And they

have now done their fifth attack on a boat, which they call a drug boat.

There is a huge amount of thought that this not so much about drugs, maybe, but about regime change. And you yourself have welcomed this U.S. military

intervention. So, walk us through that. Why do you want your country's future to be decided by U.S. military intervention?

MACHADO: Well, first of all, regime change was already mandated in absolutely unfair conditions that we won. People used to tell me that I was

crazy, that it was absolutely impossible to win with those conditions.

[13:30:00]

We built a legion of over one million volunteers. We had no money. We had no media, no one there to speak. We had no international support

whatsoever. My team had been in prison or persecuted since then. I had won a primary with over 90 percent of the votes and I was banned from

participating. And a brave old man dared to walk -- step up and he ran as a candidate. The regime thought he had no chance at all to win because no one

knew him.

So, we managed to create this incredible civic organization. We won by a landslide. We collected over 85 percent of the original tally sheets. We

brought them to undisclosed areas. We digitized them. We showed them after scanning them to the world. And then Maduro decided to declare war on the

Venezuelan people. War. He -- we didn't want this war. He started that war. And we need the help of the president of the United States to stop this war

because it is about human lives.

So, any criminal structure remains in power, in control with the sources it gets. In the case of Maduro and his criminal narco-terrorism structure is

through drug trafficking, gold trafficking, arms trafficking, even human trafficking. And we need to cut those flows from coming in because that's

what the regime used for repression and also for expanding its criminal activities. And that's what's happening right now when we totally support

it. And actually, we're asking other countries in the Caribbean, in Latin America, in Europe to join that international coalition.

AMANPOUR: I want to press you on this, the narco-trafficking state. This what Juan Carlos -- sorry, Juan Gonzalez, who was President Biden's

national security director for the Western Hemisphere, told me about this. Being that essentially only 5 percent of cocaine flows through Venezuela.

This what he told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUAN GONZALEZ, FORMER U.S. NSC SENIOR DIRECTOR FOR THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE: The reason that drugs have never originated from Venezuela in the way that

they originate from Colombia, over 95 percent of the cocaine that comes to the United States comes from Colombia, is because Venezuela has one of the

largest oil reserves in the world. They have the largest gold reserves in Latin America. So, there's never been a need for them to develop a native

drug-producing industry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So, tell me about that, because when people look at what's going on, they say, OK, they've used the drug issue to justify getting rid of

Maduro, like they used the non-existent WMD issue to get rid of Saddam Hussein in Iraq. So, are you -- I guess what I'm asking you is, are you

concerned about that, given that it's not as much of, certainly it's not fentanyl, which comes through from China through Mexico, and it's not that

much cocaine, relatively speaking?

MACHADO: Well, I totally disagree with your guest's statement. Using the FBI's own reports, 2020, 24 percent of the world trade of cocaine goes

through Venezuela. And this increasing. And certainly, the regime has turned the Cartel de los Soles into one of the most powerful criminal

structures, having activities all along these continent and other continents as well.

Not only that, the regime has promoted criminal structures such as Tren de Aragua, that have criminals operating from Canada to Argentina. Just today,

the president of Chile declared that they have proof that the top government of Venezuela, Maduro and Torch (ph), is the intellectual

murderer of a Venezuelan dissident that was killed in Santiago de Chile a year ago. It was President Boric. You cannot say precisely it's an opinion

that comes from the right.

So, everybody knows that Venezuela is today the main channel of cocaine, and that this a business that has been run by Maduro from Miraflores.

AMANPOUR: Now, here's the thing. I'm confused about your relationship with the Trump administration. On the one hand, you welcomed this action. On the

other hand, you dedicated your prize to him for his support of your cause.

[13:35:00]

And on the other hand, one of the one of his one of his allies, or, you know, officials, White House communications director Steven Cheung, said

the Nobel Committee proved they place politics over peace. Sort of disapproving that you got it and the president didn't get it. Have you

spoken to President Trump about this? I mean, tell me why you dedicate yours to him.

MACHADO: Oh, because it's absolutely fair. And that's what the Venezuelan people feel. We're getting finally a leadership that is addressing this

tragic situation in Venezuela that has been evolving for 26 years, as it should. We have been asked that this criminal structure be addressed using

law enforcement. And that's finally what's happening.

And I did have the chance to speak on Friday with President Trump. And it was a very good conversation. And I was able to convey to him our gratitude

for what he's doing. And I absolutely think he deserves a Nobel Peace Prize because of incredible events that are taking place currently in the world.

One of them, certainly the conflict in the Middle East and Gaza, which has had the support of the whole International Community, every single side of

it, including Latin America, certainly. But also, because he has understood that, you know, Venezuela is in the heart of the Americas.

AMANPOUR: So --

MACHADO: And Maduro has turned our country into a real threat to the national security of the United States and the hemisphere. And we're going

to turn Venezuela from that criminal hub into an energy hub that brings prosperity and security to our people, first and foremost, but also to the

rest of the people of the Western Hemisphere.

AMANPOUR: So, clearly Venezuela has a massive potential and riches, we know that. But, again, to the real critical issue of American involvement,

you know in your hemisphere that there's been decades of it. And it hasn't all gone really well. Also, I wonder whether you were surprised that your -

- well, the president of Mexico did not join in the huge congratulations around the world, citing national sovereignty and self-determination. So,

this obviously an issue. It's obviously an issue for various different leaders in Latin America.

Do you -- are you calling for American intervention in your country, military intervention?

MACHADO: We're calling for the interventions of Russia, China, Cuba and Iran to be stopped and to be expelled. Venezuela right now is a safe haven

where Hezbollah, Hamas, the drug cartels, the Colombian guerrilla operate freely. And they are part of this liaison with the regime.

And what we have done, the Venezuelan people, as I said, it's already mandated regime change. We won and we need help to enforce that decision.

And that help comes in terms of applying, enforcing the law, cutting those flows that come from these criminal activities. And you know what, making

public, unveiling all the information many of these governments have, not only the United States, Latin America, European countries and governments

that have -- you know, that know that their financial systems are being used by these criminal activities. We want this to be absolutely made

public.

And believe me, Christiane, as we speak, the Venezuelan people are organizing, yes, underground, under huge threat, but growing and growing

hope and determined, determined to prevail. Venezuela will be free.

AMANPOUR: Maria Corina Machado, that was very clear indeed. And congratulations on your Nobel Prize. Thank you very much indeed. And we'll

be right back after this short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:40:00]

AMANPOUR: And now, a look back at the very beginnings of the United States and where it is 250 years later. That is the focus of The Atlantic's

November issue. Editor in chief Jeffrey Goldberg speaks to Walter Isaacson about the Founding Fathers' lofty ideals and how the country is living up

to them.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALTER ISAACSON, CO-HOST, AMANPOUR AND CO.: Thank you, Chris John and Jeff Goldberg. Welcome back to the show.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG, EDITOR IN CHIEF, THE ATLANTIC: Thank you so much for having me.

ISAACSON: You and The Atlantic have just launched a series and a special issue for the 250th birthday of our nation. It's called "The Unfinished

Revolution." First of all, tell me why you call it unfinished.

GOLODRYGA: It'll never be finished. I mean, no human endeavor ever reaches a stage of perfection in my mind. So, we are 250 years into this

experiment. It's not a straight shot toward near perfection in American history or any other history, but we have seen the expansion of the

American idea to include women, to include black people, to include all kinds of other people into the promise that was made by the founders, the

genius founders of the United States.

And what I mean by unfinished is that we're always trying to figure out better ways to be a representative of democracy. It's also unfinished.

There's a -- I guess you would say, a particularly unfinished quality to where we are right now, where in my mind and in the minds of a lot of other

people, we're slipping backwards in many categories, including and especially in organizing a government by the people and for the people.

If you take the long view, you realize that America goes up, America goes down. We go through periods of idealism. We go through periods of cynicism

like we're in right now. But, you know, it's the task of every citizen to try to understand what their responsibility is as delineated by the

founding documents and the founding fathers of our country. And that's what this issue tries to do. It sort of says this this what happened. This what

it means. This where we're going. And here are the challenges ahead.

ISAACSON: You just said that we generally progress, but sometimes we slip backwards and we're slipping backwards. Now, you said I think you're on

democracy. We're talking about rule of and by and for the people. Give me some examples. What are you talking about?

GOLDBERG: Well, the thing that really eats at me right now is this. So, the founders were, generally speaking, pessimists about human nature, and

so devised a government that would work against the vagaries of human nature. Obviously, we had men who founded this country who had

extraordinary insight into human nature and also extraordinary qualities.

I mean, George Washington obviously set the pattern until today when he went home, right? But leaders don't go home. They don't voluntarily give up

power. George Washington became a model for every president until today, until today's president, of the person who takes power and then willingly

cedes power. We're in a new situation right now, obviously.

The thing that really gets me, though, is the separation of powers. They devised a system of separation of powers where each branch would check the

power of the other branch. That only works if everybody takes on their proper role. And right now, we have a situation in which Congress -- in my

mind again, Congress is not taking the power granted to it by the Constitution to actually be a check on executive power. So, it works on

paper, but it only really works if everybody plays their designated role.

And what I don't understand about this moment, more than almost any other thing I don't understand about this moment, is why the leaders of Congress

don't fulfill, it's not just fulfill their responsibilities, why don't they do the things that they can do, which is to check the executive? And so,

here we are.

[13:45:00]

We're here where we are in large part because Congress doesn't do what it was meant to do. If you look at Watergate, why did Watergate end? Why did

Nixon resign? Because the Republican leaders of Congress said to him, that's enough. Thank you. But we'll take it from here. And we don't have

that situation today. Not by a long shot.

ISAACSON: One of the things that suffuses the Declaration of Independence is also at the core of the Constitution, and you just referred to it, which

is a protection against authoritarian rule, a protection they were trying to make sure that we didn't have a monarch again. And that's what the whole

Declaration of Independence is about, and that's what they do when they balance it in the Constitution. Why are you fearing that we are now getting

back to a more authoritarian executive?

GOLDBERG: Well, because we elected a person who does not, it's abundantly clear, have the same respect for the restraints that previous American

presidents have willingly taken on to advance the cause of representative democracy. He's just in a different mindset.

I mean, every president loves power. And, you know, to even run for president and think that you could do the job suggests that there's

something -- you know, there's a screw loose anyway, right? But until this president, we have not experienced a person who has, frankly, you know,

authoritarian impulses and who believes that the government should be used as a weapon against his domestic political enemies. So, we have that.

And again, I come back to this. It's like the story of our moment is not simply the story of a man who believes that he has or should take

privileges that previous presidents didn't think that they should take. The story is a system out of balance in which the people designated by the

Constitution to check his power aren't checking his power.

And again, this a -- this conversation could go into why are we in this moment? And I would say that the rise of reality TV and the entertainment

internet complex and the rise of social media have lowered our resistance to the kind of populism that we see today. You know, we're inoculated

against this kind of thing by the naturally slower processes that we had in our politics. But now that everything's at warp speed and now that very,

very, very bad and dangerous ideas can move around the world in a nanosecond, we're in a different thing, and Donald Trump takes advantage of

those things.

ISAACSON: To what extent do you see the role of the press -- you talk about Congress not stepping up to the plate, but the role of the press and

dealing with this moment?

GOLDBERG: I mean, without the press, we're finished, obviously. Authoritarians across the world understand that point, which is why they

turn the press into the enemy of the people. Jefferson in particular, but many other many other of the founders understood the indispensability of a

free press and the chaos that a free press brings. Remember that chaos that they worried about was a very measured, slow chaos by the standards of

today.

One of the things I would say is that -- and this sort of a commentary on the way the press itself behaves. We don't -- as an industry, as a

collection of oppositional people, we don't explain why we do what we do to people anymore. We just assume that everybody understands the valuable role

of the press and the valuable role of the First Amendment in their lives. And I don't think that can be taken for granted anymore, especially when

you have a president who actively argues against the existence of a free, untrammeled press. We would be in a much more authoritarian position if we

didn't have the free press right now.

ISAACSON: You call this series the unfinished revolution, you said, because in some ways we have to keep improving that. The arc is towards

progress, but it recedes back and forth. A lot of flaws in the American thing. So, it's a great balance.

But President Trump has talked about -- he put out an order in March called "Restoring Truth and Sanity to American History," which declares over the

past decade, Americans have witnessed a concerted and widespread effort to rewrite our nation's history, replacing objective facts with distorted

narrative driven by ideology rather than truth.

[13:50:00]

When you're trying to put together this issue, do you feel the push of this president and this administration trying to keep our history looking great,

or do you see how you can do a balance?

GOLDBERG: Look, there are three camps in America. I'm making this oversimplified, but there's three camps when it comes to understanding

American history. There's what I think of as my camp, probably your camp, which thinks that America is a wonderful country, a wonderful experiment.

That sometimes it's made bad mistakes, but the great thing about America is that we learn from our mistakes and then we get better. The expansion of

rights is one example of that. And that we're so strong and self-confident that we can examine, honestly, the mistakes we've made in order to learn

from them and just deal with them.

There's another camp that is so brittle and fragile in its understanding of American history that they think you can't say anything bad about America

at all. Which is silly. I mean, it's just juvenile, right? That to criticize any aspect of America is to be anti-American.

There's a third camp. And this is, you know, on the hard left that thinks America is uniquely evil in the world. I don't know much patience for it

because it's so dumb, you know, that America is as uniquely evil presence on the world stage. That's not for me. I'm in the middle group, which says

that America is a wonderful experiment. It's a wonderful country worth saving and growing and that we make mistakes and that we should fix our

mistakes and acknowledge them. I find that to be a sensible middle ground, but that's where we are.

And what you're seeing now when it comes to the National Archives, when it comes to the Smithsonian, even in culture, when it comes to the Kennedy

Center, is you're seeing that that that camp of brittleness dominating the conversation. And that's not that's not useful. And that's not what makes a

country great. What makes a country great is a bunch of people arguing with themselves about what makes a country great and doing those things. So,

that's why we're in this weird we're in this weird moment.

ISAACSON: One of the things you have to deal with, of course, is slavery. And the notion that Jefferson can write all men are created equal when he's

enslaved 200 people, and there 500,000 enslaved Africans in the United -- in the colonies at that point. Annette Gordon-Reed takes it on real well in

your issue, which is this question of how do you look at that, but also see the progress made the 250 years since that.

Tell me how Annette Gordon-Reed takes on that issue of all men are created equal and how we have to deal with that.

GOLDBERG: Here's a manifestation of Annette's genius and of Lonnie Bunch's genius. Lonnie, who built -- who is now the secretary of the Smithsonian,

and dealing with some of this pressure about how do we talk about history, but also the founding director of the of the National American -- African-

American History Museum.

When you go to the -- you can you can see Annette's theory brought to life in that museum. And there's a statue of Thomas Jefferson, in about seven,

eight feet tall, Thomas Jefferson. Behind him is a is a curved brick wall that has etched into each brick the name of one of the slaves, one of the

enslaved people, black Americans were kept in Monticello, right. And the wall is higher than Jefferson. And the symbolism there is obvious that the

sin of Jefferson is larger than the man, right.

Then above that, two stories high, the opening words of the Declaration of Independence. And that symbolizes that the ideals that Jefferson held but

didn't live up to as a man are perfect. And that's what we're striving for. It's the perfect representation.

And, you know, I have such admiration for Annette and all the scholars who have made Jefferson the more complicated, that's probably a euphemism,

complicated figure that he actually is. But that's a perfect representation of the entirety of the American story.

The founders were flawed men who had a limited understanding by our understanding today of who gets freedom, right. But they articulated a set

of ideas that if you actually carried them out, would create something close to utopia on Earth. And that's the -- that's -- I don't know, that

should keep Americans motivated for a lifetime.

[13:55:00]

Let's get better. Let's meet -- we don't have to -- you don't have to you have to make believe that Thomas Jefferson, George Washington were perfect

people, we just have to acknowledge that they had some pretty good ideas for us and that we should do them.

ISAACSON: Jeffrey Goldberg, thank you for joining us.

GOLDBERG: Thank you, Walter.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And finally, if you've been in central London over the past couple of days, you might, as I did while walking my dog this week, run

into a group of elite Japanese sumo wrestlers enjoying a stroll by many of London sites, Buckingham Palace, like having a snack outside Big Ben.

They're here for the grand sumo tournament at the Royal Albert Hall, which starts today.

That's it for now. Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.

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