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Amanpour
Interview with Former Palestinian Authority Foreign Minister Nasser al-Kidwa; Interview with "Mr. Scorsese" Director Rebecca Miller; Interview with Senator Mark Warner (D-VA). Aired 1-2p ET
Aired October 16, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
President Trump downplays any threat to the ceasefire in Gaza, as Israel and Hamas accuse each other of flouting the deal. But who will run the
enclave post-war? I'll ask one whose name has been floated, President -- Palestinian politician Nasser al-Kidwa.
Then, "Mr. Scorsese." Rebecca Miller joins me on her new documentary, turning the lens on a titan of filmmaking.
Plus, the shutdown standoff continues. Senator Mark Warner tells Michel Martin why Democrats won't back down on health care.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
The ceasefire in Gaza is just four days old, and already there are signs of tension. Hamas says it's handed over all the hostage remains that it can
access without specialist equipment. Israel, though, is restricting aid in retaliation. Meanwhile, Israel returned 120 Boddes of Palestinians held
during the war, some of which show signs of abuse and beating.
The U.S. is essentially urging, keep calm and carry on, President Trump says. What's going on with Hamas, that's -- that'll be straightened out
quickly.
On this program, the Egyptian foreign minister assured me phase two negotiations are going well. 1But with Hamas reasserting its authority in
brutal fashion against ordinary Palestinians, there are also growing questions around the future governance of Gaza. Fifteen Palestinian
technocrats have apparently already been approved to help manage the enclave.
My next guest is rumored to be among them. Nasser al-Kidwa is a well-known Palestinian politician, nephew of Yasser Arafat, and former foreign
minister for the Palestinian Authority. In recent years, he's worked on a peace plan alongside the former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. And
he's joining me now from Ramallah in the occupied West Bank. Welcome to the program, Mr. al-Kidwa.
NASSER AL-KIDWA, FORMER PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY FOREIGN MINISTER: Thank you, Christiane. And by the way, I just was with Mr. Ehud Olmert on Zoom
speaking with the students in Georgetown University.
AMANPOUR: OK. Well, that's good. I'll ask you more about that. But you're also back in Ramallah for the first time in many years. This is not just a
change of your travel plans, right? It signals a shift in your political reality right now?
AL-KIDWA: You are right. Of course, it's not the result of a change of flying plans. But, of course, there is this general understanding that the
situation now is very difficult and we are faced with extremely, you know, difficult situation. And that's why we need to come together and maybe
think of the situation differently, including how to proceed and how to proceed appropriately.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, you've been in self-exile for approximately four years. And as I said, your name has been floated as one of the 15 technocrats. But
more to the point, you have said in an interview with Reuters that if called, you would try to answer that call for your country people and for a
future state. So, have you been called? Are you on the 15, you know, member list of technocrats for the future governance of Gaza?
AL-KIDWA: Well, I clearly -- unfortunately or fortunately, I haven't been called. And I'm not aware that my list is on -- my name is on the list. I
don't even believe that there is a list. Not yet. So, we need to probably agree on the mechanism and how to proceed and how to proceed in the right
way. And then we can speak about names.
But of course, yes, I mean, I'm not hoping to be in Gaza. But after all, I'm Gaza. And this is our country. And if I'm called for, of course, I will
be available.
[13:05:00]
AMANPOUR: OK. So, let me just ask you then about what's on the table, because if a list isn't there, I understand this sort of second phase is
being talked about. I think still in Sharm el-Sheikh. That would be about governance, about a stabilization force. But you recently told Sky News
that the Trump 20-point plan, quote, "doesn't make sense. The Palestinian people do not deserve to be put under international trusteeship or
guardianship and definitely doesn't deserve to be put on the British mandate again."
So, tell me about what you see in that 20-point plan and why to you parts of it don't make sense.
AL-KIDWA: Well, I didn't say that exactly. But anyway, let's talk about it. I do think that the presence of the Board of Peace headed by President
Trump is something that can be acceptable and can contribute in making things go in the right direction, because this is, after all, supervisory
body. What I objected to is the idea of having a board of directors headed by Mr. Tony Blair, which then, you know, is mandated to govern Gaza.
I thought that that does not make any sense because Gaza or any part of the Palestinian territory can be governed only by Palestinians. And that does
not negate the possibility of having supervision and having some kind of follow up by anybody, including the Board of Peace that Mr. Trump spoke
about.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, there's always an issue with the transition. There have been in other wars, transitional international board of directors like in
the Balkans. There's the so-called high representative still existing in Bosnia. So, what is it that you envision and how do you envision getting
over the current reality that there isn't a unified Palestinian leadership? There just isn't. There haven't been elections. What happens in your
vision?
AL-KIDWA: And our -- yes, in our written statement, Ehud Olmert and myself, we proposed having a new body that is organically linked to the
Palestinian Authority. And how we do that, we thought that's not in the proposal, but I would add that we can have the appointment of the head of
that body appointed by the president of the authority. We can achieve that through the fact that all employees of the body will be employees of the
authority.
And more importantly, we can achieve that through preparing for elections, comprehensive elections, the West Bank and Gaza together. That would be the
panacea of all Palestinian ills, because at the end of the day, it's election that will make all the difference.
AMANPOUR: You talk about the former Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert. Just describe what the peace plan looks like. It's obviously the two-state
solution. But are there other aspects to it?
AL-KIDWA: Yes, there are three issues, actually. One is the war in Gaza and the absolute necessity to end the war and how we can do that. And we
spoke a lot about this, including the proposal to have the body, the Palestinian body that is organically linked to the Palestinian Authority.
In addition, we also spoke in this short or concise plan or proposal. We spoke of the necessity to have an overall political settlement in the form
of two-state solution based on 1967 borders, Israel and Palestine living side and side in peace and security. And, of course, to have an exchange of
territory in the amount of 4.4 percent of the West Bank, which was proposed by Ehud Olmert before that.
And let me say, there is a third point, which is Jerusalem, of course, because of its importance to all monotheistic religions, all believers in
the world. And, of course, in this regard, we propose that the old city should be governed by a trust of countries, maybe five countries through
regulations adopted by the Security Council.
But I want to say this, Christiane, I mean, there is no alternative to that. Either you accept the existence of the other side, the national
rights of the other side, and you are ready to live together. And that's the only way forward is the two-state solution or you negate the existence
of the other side and you claim that it's all yours. And that's the recipe for the continued bloodshed and agony, unfortunately.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, you know, you have on board a former Israeli prime minister. He's more center right. Also, presumably, the other former living
Israeli prime minister, Ehud Barak, center left, agrees with this broad parameter of a two-state solution. However, Clause 19 of the 20-point plan
speaks only vaguely about statehood.
[13:10:00]
I'm just going to read it, "While Gaza redevelopment advances and when the PA reform program is faithfully carried out, the conditions may finally be
in place for a credible pathway to Palestinian self-determination and statehood, which we recognize as the aspiration of the Palestinian people."
The Trump administration is nowhere near and hasn't yet recognized Palestinian statehood. As you know, they actually barred Palestinian
leaders Mahmoud Abbas and his delegation from even coming to the U.N. this time. And, you know, they rejected the Arab states and the Europeans and
others when they issued their formal recognition of Palestinian statehood at the U.N. just recently.
So, have things changed, do you think, from the American perspective and also from the perspective of the current Israeli government?
AL-KIDWA: Well, I'm not sure. I don't know whether they have changed or not. But the language you read, Christiane, is obviously not strong enough.
I mean, we need something a little bit more concrete that would carry us all towards the peaceful solution. However, we all know that the existence
of this Israeli government, this prime minister, is an impediment to that.
So, irrespective of what some members of the Knesset say now, I think things might look different and might look better in the future after we
have an Israeli elections.
AMANPOUR: And what about -- I mean, you mentioned Palestinian elections, which haven't taken place for a very, very long time. And right now, you've
got a situation that people are looking at from outside where Hamas is filling the vacuum left by the, you know, withdrawing IDF and they are
taking summary justice and executions into their own hands. That doesn't look great at all, even though some of these people, we understand, were
Palestinians who were empowered by Israel to fight against Hamas. What do you make of the inter-Palestinian fighting now?
AL-KIDWA: Listen, it's not an inter-Palestinian fighting. I mean, this is an attempt by Hamas to scare everybody, and it's not acceptable, frankly.
You were right to say that the execution outside the law is not acceptable. And irrespective of the reason or irrespective of the justification, let me
say. There should be always a due process, there should be always some kind of courts, there should be always lawyers that defend the accused and
things like that. So, it doesn't look good and definitely it should change.
Actually, I said repeatedly that what is needed from Hamas is not only the acceptance of not governing Gaza, but the acceptance of giving up its
control over Gaza in all its forms. And that means the political as well as the administrative, in addition to the security, which lead us to putting
the arms, or at least the heavy arms, under the control of the official authority. And that could be coupled with the possibility of transforming
Hamas into a political party that can participate in the political life under Israeli law, of course, that, you know, would put the parameters for
this kind of participation.
I'm saying that because, at the end of the day, Hamas is part of the social fabric of the Palestinian people and they will not disappear. So, we better
have some kind of arrangement that would help the Palestinian people and would help the people of Gaza to proceed and to do the right thing.
AMANPOUR: In the meantime, to establish law -- because clearly there was a huge vacuum during the war, what about this stabilization force? What are
you hearing? What countries are saying, if any, that they will provide troops? What is acceptable to the Palestinian people and people like
yourself?
AL-KIDWA: Personally, I would have preferred an Arab security presence. But, of course, this is beyond us now because it seems that there is some
kind of agreement on having the international security force and that, of course, should go through the Security Council.
Now, I am not sure which countries will be available to provide troops, but I think it's doable. I think there are enough countries that might be ready
to do that, including some Arab countries, in addition, of course, to some Europeans and Asian countries that express this kind of position.
[13:15:00]
AMANPOUR: And the other issue is, of course, people are looking for unifying or, you know, popular Palestinian leaders. As I said, God knows
that there aren't any right now. The polls are absolutely catastrophic for people like Mahmoud Abbas, the head of the PA. Obviously, for Hamas. People
in Gaza were desperate when they heard the news of a ceasefire. We need to get rid of Hamas as well, which has brought all this upon us as well.
So, Marwan Barghouti's name has been floated quite a lot. His name was on the list that Hamas presented, but he's never been -- it's never been
accepted by Israel. They accuse him of the murder of several people, of plotting that. And he's got, I think, five consecutive life sentences. In
any event, would you join calls for his release? And do you think he would be a unifying figure, given his high levels of popularity?
AL-KIDWA: Of course, I would join the call to release him. And, of course, it's outrageous that the Israeli government did not accept his release, in
spite of the request made by Hamas in this regard. And to answer your question, yes, he could be a unifying force for the Palestinian people. But
hopefully, there will be others as well, and we can proceed.
AMANPOUR: Do you think not letting him go, and it's not the first time there's been petitions to have him released, do you think it's because of
what you say, that he is a unifying force? He also believes in the two- state solution. He's also anti-Hamas. All the things that most Palestinians and the International Community are behind, do you think that's why he's
not being released? Why do you think he's not being released? Given that others who have been convicted of --
AL-KIDWA: It's all about -- I think the bottom line is this. This Israeli government -- yes, yes, yes. But this Israeli government and the prime
minister in particular doesn't want to have a Palestinian State, doesn't want to have Palestinian independence. He wants to ensure the continued
agony and continued bloodshed and continued absence of any political solution. And that's why he doesn't want people like Marwan Barghouti
released. But, of course, it's our job to do exactly the opposite.
AMANPOUR: OK. Final question. Are you hopeful?
AL-KIDWA: Yes, I am hopeful, and I think we cannot afford not to be hopeful. We should be hopeful, and, you know, of course we should be also
attentive to things and observe carefully how things will develop and then draw the conclusions. But in general, as I said, we can't afford not to be
hopeful.
AMANPOUR: All right. Well, Nasser al-Kidwa, first time back in Ramallah for, I think, four years. And you sound hopeful. Obviously, a lot of
challenges, including in the West Bank where you are. Thank you very much for joining us.
AL-KIDWA: Thank you. Pleasure.
AMANPOUR: And we have to always reiterate that, of course, we continue to request interviews with the Israeli government itself. We invite their
officials to come on our program and discuss the future. Stay with us. We'll be right back after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:20:00]
AMANPOUR: Now, for some real cultural heavyweight, just think of masterpieces like "Goodfellas," "Raging Bull," "Taxi Driver." Martin
Scorsese is considered by many to be America's greatest living film director. And now, the legend himself is on the other side of the camera as
the subject of a new Apple TV documentary series that dives deep into his life and work. Here's a clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where are we going? What stories do we want to tell? I knew I could express myself with pictures, but I had to find my own way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And series director Rebecca Miller joins me now from New York. Welcome to the program. Are you OK? Is your earpiece in?
REBECCA MILLER, DIRECTOR, "MR. SCORSESE": I seem to have lost my earpiece, but I'm going to get it back.
AMANPOUR: OK.
MILLER: Here I have it. OK.
AMANPOUR: There you go. There you go. I mean, hey, it's a filmmaker's jeopardy there. So, is this like a Freudian moment? Were you nervous
actually turning your own camera as a director onto the legend himself?
MILLER: Well, you know, I have a healthy capacity for denial, I think. And so, I really just -- I was really just trying to ask the questions, listen
to the answers, ask the next question. I tried to empty my mind and just really listen.
AMANPOUR: So, what was it -- how did it come about? Why did you decide this was going to be, you know, your focus, this person?
MILLER: I was having a conversation with my producing partner, Damon Cardasis, and I was saying I would love to make another documentary. And he
just said, well, who is your dream subject? And immediately Martin Scorsese popped into my head. It was an unconscious thing.
And then I did say at the time, I have a feeling that, you know, his spiritual life is really sewn into his films. And I'd be really interested
to explore that, which is something I didn't feel I had seen really explored yet completely. And that was sort of my way in. And then I called
Marty's doc producer, Margaret Bodde, and I just floated the idea. I said, if nobody else is doing a big film, like I would love to do it. And that's
really how it started. It started as a film project and then became a series.
AMANPOUR: I'm going to let you get that earpiece into your ear properly. So, I don't know --
MILLER: In it goes. I think I've got one of those ears that doesn't like it.
AMANPOUR: You know, obviously, you know, full disclosure, your husband, also a great actor, Daniel Day-Lewis, has been in several of Marty
Scorsese's films. Did you ask -- I mean, did you consult with him and you even interview him in the series? How -- I mean, that -- it's interesting.
It's interesting.
MILLER: Well, I met Marty on the set of "Gangs of New York," and that's how I met him. And I remember being just struck by how vivid and full of
life and nervous he was. But he was about to shoot the big one of the big battle scenes. And I was just thinking, like, my God, a man who's made so
many masterpieces and he's still a little bit nervous. And so, I was so struck by that.
And then I was about to make "Personal Velocity," which is a film that has a lot of voiceover in it. And I knew that. And so, I said, you know, can
you suggest any films with voiceover apart, obviously, from his own? And he suggested a few great films like "Kind Hearts" and "Coronets," for example.
And so, I watched those films and then I used a lot of what they taught me. And I made the film and I showed it to him. And I said, if you have any
notes, I would love to hear them. And he gave me a thought. And then I did that with other films of mine.
And so -- he by the time I called Margaret Bodde, I was -- he knew my films pretty well. And so, in a way, he knew me pretty well. And I knew him a
little socially, although not deeply.
AMANPOUR: And a bit of a mentor, it sounds.
MILLER: I guess so, in a sense, although it would be just on those occasions, you know. But I -- but of course, it was a hugely important
thing for me that he watched the films. And anyway, thank God he did, because here we are.
AMANPOUR: Yes. We've got a few clips. I'm going to play at least one in a moment. But first, I want to pick up on what you said, his spiritual
journey. Not so many people know. And I was really quite struck by one of the first episodes where he really goes into his childhood, his upbringing,
how he even went into the, you know, Catholic seminary. He thought he would be a priest and all the rest of it. I found that really interesting. What
about that -- those early years and the spiritual part of him did really stuck with you?
MILLER: Well, you know, I thought, well, how does that sort of spiritual journey and his Catholicism jibe with a fascination with violence in some
of the films? And like, how do those things coexist? And I thought at that time, I thought, but it was really about his interest in the sinner and in
focusing on those people that aren't necessarily heroic, you know, but in fact -- but who are the hero of the story, as he says in the film.
[13:25:00]
So -- and that just was my way in of -- into the -- into this body of work. And it was only the beginning because then came the avalanche of knowledge
and -- that I got later.
AMANPOUR: It's really interesting and I hadn't really focused on it either, how much his -- obviously his parents play a huge role in his life
and in his upbringing, but even in his films. And I remember interviewing Jodie Foster and she talked about how Scorsese's mother was on the set
regularly of "Taxi Driver," tucking in his shirt, patting his butt, those were her words to me. And you have a clip about his mother in in the film.
We're just going to play this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any student filmmaker, first person to go to your parents.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He made me get up to cook spaghetti at 4:30 in the morning. I was in the Mean Streets. He made me do that scene 22 times and I
had to go to work in the morning. It was 2:00 in the morning and I was still doing that scene. Oh, and I says to him, I've had it, Marty. I got to
go to work in the morning. He says to me, go in that corner and don't come out till I call you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: I mean, that in itself is a movie right there. I mean, it's a comedy movie. But why was his mother always -- why was she always there?
MILLER: Sorry?
AMANPOUR: Why was she always there? Why did he keep turning to her as a character in his film?
MILLER: Oh, I think she was tremendously important to him. I think, you know, it clearly in the film you see the relationship and you see how close
they were. He also -- because he was very sick, I think as a child, he talks about having to be taken care of all the time. The kind of intimacy
and closeness of a child who's often sick with -- in his case, with asthma.
But his mother had, I think you can see in the film, like almost the personality of an artist. She's a she's an outside -- outsized character.
She's tremendously funny and quick witted, really, really brilliant woman.
AMANPOUR: You know, it reminds me one of the people you interview is Spike Lee. And just the little clip that I've seen so far, he says, thank God for
asthma. That's what made Marty Scorsese the filmmaker, the director that he is. Talk to me about that a little bit.
MILLER: Well, you know, asthma really did prevent him from going outside, from playing in the snow, from being around other kids. And also, he talks
about looking out the window and watching the kids play outside. And that's where he says, that's where I got to love high shots so much. And then we
have a series of the high shots that -- you know, that it really informed how he liked to shoot films.
But also, in the summers, it was so hot in New York and so stifling and they couldn't afford air conditioning. So, his father would bring him to --
from one air-conditioned movie theater to another in order to just let him breathe. So, he was literally only able to breathe inside of movie
theaters.
AMANPOUR: I think that's really extraordinary. I mean, just that -- again, is something that I certainly didn't know about. And also, about how he
says to you and he sort of recounts how his father had a massive fight with a landlord when they were living in Corona, Queens, basically, you know,
the suburbs. And then then he was kicked out. They basically decided that he had to leave that area. And the shame of it and going to what was
described as tenements in Little Italy, I guess, in Manhattan was very formative to Marty Scorsese. And I guess cemented his maybe outsider
perspective, looking in and the idea of, as you say, sinners and looking in at that aspect, the dark side of humanity.
MILLER: Absolutely. I mean, I think that, you know, Paul Schrader at a certain point, I ask him why it is that he thinks that Marty identified so
strongly with that script of "Taxi Driver." And he says, it's almost as if I had written it myself, says Marty. And I asked Paul if he knew why. And
one of the things he said was Marty really responded to a phrase in the script that Travis Bickle is looking inside at Betsy, like a wolf staring
at a campfire in the distance, that sense of like the animal that's left out, like left far away. But it also makes you think of a child looking
down the window -- at the window, down at other people who are below. So, there is a kind of theme, an outsider theme, I think, in the film.
AMANPOUR: And what about -- let's just talk about the film's, "Mean Streets," "Taxi Driver," all the way up to, you know, "Killers of the
Flower Moon," how much of his life do you see playing into his storytelling?
MILLER: Could you repeat the beginning of that question?
AMANPOUR: Yes. I'm really sorry for the trouble you're having.
MARTIN: It's OK.
[13:30:00]
AMANPOUR: You know what? I'm going to go to a clip here. I'm going to go to a clip and I'm going to just give you a few seconds to position it
better. Here's a clip of -- from the documentary. OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN SCORSESE, FILMMAKER: It's a sense of trust and belonging with each other as a unit. I would come from a time where the actors in the studio
would take the film away from you. And so, that's one thing. And that became an issue with De Niro in the sense that we found, we found a trust
that I knew he -- in the bottom line, he wouldn't do that. I really trusted that and it came true. So, it was safe to experiment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: OK.
MILLER: It just fell out. It just fell out.
AMANPOUR: We're going to take a break and we will come back, Rebecca.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: We just heard that clip about Scorsese talking about his collaboration with Robert De Niro. Tell me Rebecca Hall, what -- Miller,
rather, I'm confused now.
MILLER: It's OK.
AMANPOUR: What is it about their collaboration you think was so, I mean, transcendent, and really, it's a body of work that these two have put out
there?
MILLER: You could say they've been created each other in a way. I mean, it's extraordinary because De Niro was a boy who, you know, was compelled
to visit the neighborhood and really become, make it his kind of home where he stood, as he says, that was the expression they used instead of hanging
out. As a 16, 17-year-old boy and knew Marty to say hi to and just wave to. And then they met again through Jay Cox and the story of like, you know,
Jay introducing them at the -- at a party and, and De Niro watching Marty who's sort of holding forth and talking and laughing and just De Niro just
watching. And that was the beginning of this extraordinary journey.
AMANPOUR: And you also don't shy away from his -- you know, there's a lot of dark in his actual person. You know, he carried weapons occasionally. He
had really severe drug addictions and drug use, failed relationships, emotional volatility. And he was married five times and you talk to one of
his ex-wives, Isabella Rossellini describing him as a saint/sinner, saying that he's both essentially. Do you feel the same?
MILLER: Yes. I think that, you know, she talks about, you know, him being a saint/sinner in the sense of Santo Pescatore, as she says, you know, like
somebody who's, you know, fascinated by good and evil, you know, what are people really, thinking about the big questions? Like, as she says, as
Jesus asked the questions, as God asked the questions, but he falls a lot of time into bad. So, he's a human being. So, he, you know -- so, he's a
human being.
And he lived, he really -- you know, one of the things that I'm so impressed by by him is he really threw himself into his life as he did his
work. He didn't -- he wasn't sort of sparing of himself. He really wanted to experience life in the fullest. And to some degree, that meant sometimes
experiencing the dark side, I think, so that he could honestly portray it.
AMANPOUR: And I was also interested because most of his friends, collaborators are men. I mean, you know, De Niro, Joe Pesci, Leonardo
DiCaprio, your husband, Daniel Day-Lewis. He was, as I said, married five times, but on the other hand, he had some of his closest collaborations
with women.
[13:35:00]
The editor who he met at NYU, Thelma Schoonmaker, has been with him since then. His mother obviously is a massive presence in his life. What do you
think about his relationships?
MILLER: Well, I think it's very clear, you know, the way that he works with these, you know, intense collaborators who are women, most of the
people that he surrounds himself and that help him with his life, including Thelma Schoonmaker, are women. And a lot of the -- his -- the greatest
performances in his films actually are by women. It's just that the worlds he's exploring are often dominated by men. But when you go into something
like "The Age of Innocence" where there's a real parody there, or, you know, "Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore," which is really about a woman
redefining and capturing her own -- you know, agency for her own destiny.
AMANPOUR: And I want to just take a swerve for the moment, because before you made this documentary, you made a very, you know, hugely well-reviewed
one about your own father, the great American playwright Arthur Miller. It's called Arthur Miller Writer. Now, of course, one of his best-known
works is the crucial definitive take of McCarthyism in the 1950s America. Now, there's a sort of a resurgence of what some say is McCarthyism,
others, you know, that it's a real sort of attempt to shape what they call freedom of speech.
What, you know, blacklist, witch hunts, enemies lists, and all the rest of it, how do you sort of think about that right now?
MILLER: Well, it's interesting because there's something he says in the documentary. He's talking to Elia Kazan about the Un-American Activities
Committee. And he says, you know, that really -- they really did think there could be fascism in the country. They were ready for fascism to take
over the country. It didn't happen. I'm hopeful that it's not going to happen again, but I do think it's a real risk and it's something that seems
to lurk under the surface. And we have to be really vigilant about it.
And I think he wouldn't be -- he would be seeing a lot of the same things happening again. I think he would be appalled actually.
AMANPOUR: And now, let's just rack forward in generations. Your son has just had his directing debut in "Anemone." There's been some screenings
here. Look at that proud smile. Co-written and starring, your husband, his father, Daniel Day-Lewis. What's that like, you know, for both of you? It's
your son's first feature film debut. I think your husband has come out of some sort of semi-retirement to do this. And you've got this coming out. I
mean, it's a lot of creativity going on under one roof.
MILLER: It's a crazy time. I mean, they're in England right now on their way to Rome. I'm here in New York, you know, but I was in California. It's
madness. But I mean, you know, it's like these projects, they take years and years, and then you can't control when they blossom. I feel very, very
lucky and so proud of Ronan and Daniel.
AMANPOUR: Yes. Well, just one last question then. What -- did your opinion -- you called him, I think the icon of American culture, Martin Scorsese,
did your opinion of him evolve throughout the filming?
MILLER: Well, yes. I mean, I don't think I -- as much as I admired him and as much as I was excited that he was the first person I wanted to work on,
the titanic nature of his output, the really Shakespearean level of great films. I mean, the -- you know, it is astonishing. And it's one of the
reasons that this went from being a feature film to being a five-hour documentary because I could not contain the immensity of the body of work.
I mean, that was -- and also his self-honesty, how honest he is with himself, about himself was really tremendous. And finally, like really the
way in which as a young person, you know, he made a film at 21 called, "It's Not Just You, Murray!," meant much of which is reflected in
Goodfellas in terms of formal -- you know, a formal attitude toward cutting and toward voiceover. He was so developed as such a young age. I mean, it
really is an astonishing thing and yet, he can -- you know, he just -- he's still evolving. He's still hungry. But yes, I guess it was really that
sense of the monumental nature of what he had done.
AMANPOUR: Thank you so much, Rebecca Miller, both of us slightly discombobulated by the earpiece, but a great series.
MILLER: We made it, we made it.
AMANPOUR: We made it, we made it. And I highly recommend it. You can watch "Mr. Scorsese" on Apple TV starting from tomorrow.
Now, in the United States, the government remains shut down for a third consecutive week. Why? Because Republicans and Democrats are still at an
impasse over a key funding bill. Today, it failed to advance in the Senate for a 10th time and the stalemate is already having reverberations on the
economy, travel, museums, and the payroll of federal workers.
[13:40:00]
The Trump administration has now been temporarily blocked from laying off thousands of government employees. A judge called it politically motivated.
Democratic senator from Virginia, Mark Warner, joins Michel Martin now to discuss how mass layoffs are impacting his state, and about his fears of a
looming healthcare crisis.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Senator Mark Warner, thank you so much for joining us.
SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): Thank you.
MARTIN: Well, obviously, we called you -- one of the reasons that we called you is that this is -- we're into, I guess, the third week of the
government shutdown by now. The president is threatening to lay off federal workers. It appears that there seems to be some arrangement to pay military
personnel, at least.
Virginia is disproportionately affected by this. I mean, you have a significant percentage of the workforce, the nonfarm workforce, are federal
employees, and you have the second-largest number of military personnel of any state in the country after California.
So, the first thing I wanted to ask you is, what are your constituents telling you about this? What are you hearing from them?
WARNER: Well, first of all, I'm glad the military is getting paid. But remarkably, at least at this stage of this process, I'm hearing from
federal workers pretty consistently that they feel like they have been traumatized by the Trump administration. They feel that Russ Vought, the
OMB director, who Trump himself has called the Grim Reaper, you know, is really coming after federal workers on an unfair basis. Matter of fact, the
president has no greater ability during a shutdown to fire workers than in traditional times.
So, they feel very much victimized. They want us to push back. We also believe very strongly that, you know, the idea of that health care cliff
that's not going to come at the end of the year, that literally comes November 1st when people get their increased health care costs and will
have to buy in the marketplace, we don't have the luxury of waiting until the end of the year.
Put on that on top of the fact that, you know, the president of the United States has only sat down with the Democratic leadership one time on this
whole issue. I know the president's been running around the world, and some of these things he's done have been successful, I commend him on that. But
the idea that he is not taking this shutdown seriously and sitting down and trying to work this out, I think, is a great failure of leadership.
And we could actually do both. We could deal with the health care crisis, get the workforce back in. And frankly, at the end of the day, the
president continuing to ratchet up threats, if anything, I think, makes not only the Democrats, but it makes the federal workforce more angry and more
frustrated.
MARTIN: Do you think that this sends -- it creates a wedge, actually, between civilians and military personnel, military personnel getting paid
and civilians are not?
WARNER: I hope not. I hope that the president of the United States would recognize that all of these federal workers contribute to the safety of our
country. And whether it's in putting their lives on the line or, for that matter, inspecting the milk and the food that we drink or eat, that
protects Americans as well. And having those folks not paid isn't fair or right.
We have said for some time this was not this was an imminently preventable crisis. We knew the health care costs were going up. The administration
knew. We've got clinics closing already in my state because of this fear of this health care cliff. Let's do these together. And there is a lack of
trust, because so far, we've seen -- even when we reach agreement with this administration, we've seen the OMB director arbitrarily come in after the
fact and arbitrarily choose which program to fund or not to fund. That's just not the way the law ought to operate.
MARTIN: So, let's talk about the substance of this for people, because everybody isn't following this as closely as you are and certainly as
people who are closely connected to the federal workforce are. The immediate issue, the Republicans argue that the Democrats are being
recalcitrant and not passing what they call a clean continuing resolution, which keeps funding at the same levels as the previous budget.
The Democrats say that the issue here is the expiration of these subsidies for people who buy health care on the Affordable Care Act marketplace.
Without these subsidies, the cost to the buyer is going to increase precipitously. And that, as you pointed out, the timeline is coming up to -
- for these insurance premiums to be priced out. People are going to have to make decisions for their sort of budget. In essence, both sides are sort
of pointing fingers at each other.
WARNER: Let me just --
MARTIN: So, can you just -- go ahead.
WARNER: One of the things you just said I got to take issue with.
MARTIN: Go ahead.
[13:45:00]
WARNER: The idea that this is a normal CR just isn't the case. Historically, and we passed a bunch of these, you know, the Democrats and
the Republicans sit down together, work out their deal, and then say, we're going to take a timeout to finish up. None of that took place. Usually, it
involves the White House as well. The Republicans felt like we don't need Democrats at all, so we're going to box them out, number one.
Number two, we've seen in the past when we've gotten close to these kind of shutdown circumstances, which are always an awful option, the president of
the United States engaged. Biden engaged repeatedly. Actually, when McCarthy was the speaker, he used the speakership very much to his
advantage in getting Biden to the table. Trump has had one meeting and then kind of blown it off.
And the immediacy of the healthcare bite is such that people are already getting these notices. My fear is the Republicans want to, you know, not
acknowledge the costs going up. They're afraid as Americans see these notices coming out, which will happen more in late October than in early
October, Americans are going to cross the country revolt. And the issue here again is it's not just the 24 million Americans who buy their health
insurance through these marketplaces, but if we drive, you know, millions of Americans out of the healthcare system, and our healthcare system isn't
perfect to start with, and drive them all back into the emergency room, that is going to collapse the healthcare system. Everybody's healthcare
rates are going to go up.
We want to avoid that. We can avoid that. But you've got to get in the room and talk about these things. I don't think it's an unreasonable ask to say,
let's sit down. And frankly, at this stage of the game, the one thing we do know is the Republican leadership has no say in this. End of the day, this
is all going to be decided, at least on the Republican side, by Donald Trump.
So, we need the president's engagement. We need to sit down. Reasonable people can work this out. Particularly the President coming off a very
successful effort in the Middle East. Let's see those make-a-deal skills work back here at home and avoid this healthcare crisis and get our federal
workers back to work and get them paid.
MARTIN: The argument that the Republicans are making is that voting for the CR, the continuing resolution, is a way to buy time to have those kinds
of conversations. Why are they wrong?
WARNER: They're wrong because we've gone through CRs already. We knew this cliff was coming and there was no engagement. You know, we're operating
right now under a CR. Well, actually, it expired at the end of the fiscal year. But we passed a CR back in March. There was plenty of time to
negotiate this. I feel like there is this sense that the president feels so emboldened that he basically can blow off Congress.
And one of the things that I've been surprised that my Republican colleagues haven't risen up and said, hey, we actually got to have a say on
this as well. But frankly, there's not much of a Republican Party. There's a Trump Party. And if there was real interest in negotiating on this, why
didn't that happen before September 30th?
And so, taking a promise from somebody who hasn't kept their word so far, even when there was the CR in place and they've arbitrarily picked which
programs to fund, how you go into that circumstance where people fool me once, it's my fault, fool me twice, you know, I'm a fool. And we've seen
that kind of activity from this OMB and from this president in terms of cutting back on programs that were actually agreed on.
This isn't -- there's not a lot of trust, as we know. Let's get the president in the room. Let's make this deal. I think you get a handshake in
a single day. The details on how you extend the ACA subsidies will take some time. But I think you could get to a deal and get this government
reopened right away. But it's not going to be based on some future promise to negotiate when we've seen a lack of trust, a lack of follow-through from
the president on so many items.
MARTIN: The irony being that, according to an analysis by the KFF Health News, the majority of buyers of these policies under the Affordable Care
Act are actually in Republican states.
WARNER: Absolutely. They're all from states that didn't expand Medicaid. And, again, this is just on the Affordable Care Act. We've already seen the
trillion-dollar hit that has been taken to Medicaid, which, again, curiously enough, our Republican friends didn't have kick in until after
next year's midterm elections, where, again, about 11 million additional Americans will lose their health care coverage.
MARTIN: You all have private conversations. I understand that publicly there are no sort of discussions going on, but I assume you have side
conversations. You have people you've known for years. You've served -- this is like your third term. You've served with people for years. Private
conversations? Any private conversations going on? Will you point this out? What do they say?
WARNER: I've been part of every bipartisan group in the Senate in the last decade. You know, I have great Republican friends who I know, you know,
want to get this resolved. But in today's Washington, no Republican senator or congressman, with the exception of one or two, will go against the
president. They are not going to move in any serious way unless the president says so.
[13:50:00]
So, the idea that we could, you know, in the classic way, the Senate would work its will with Republicans and Democrats coming to a conclusion and
then go to the president, that's just not the reality of the world we live in today. Donald Trump controls every action of the Republican Senate.
There is no independent actors.
So, no matter what good faith conversations are taking place, without the president's involvement, I don't know how we get this resolved.
MARTIN: The Republicans, up to and including the vice president, have been arguing that what Democrats are really after is to subsidies health care
for illegal immigrants.
WARNER: That is --
MARTIN: What --
WARNER: -- actually wrong.
MARTIN: What are the facts of that from your --
WARNER: Let me just finish. Let me finish.
MARTIN: Yes.
WARNER: That is factually wrong. I would hope the vice president would know the law. I know he didn't spend much time in the Senate, but the law
prohibits any Federal dollars, going in Medicaid, in the Affordable Care Act, in any other program to undocumented people in this country. He should
know it. To state otherwise is a lie. And it is, I think, frankly disrespectful to the 24 million Americans who are about to lose their
health care coverage.
MARTIN: And the basis of that is, what? As I understand it, the basis of that is that emergency rooms, as you just pointed out, have to treat all
comers. Is that the basis of that, the logic of that?
WARNER: Right. That is a law called the Intella that says, if you show up at the emergency room, even if you don't have coverage, even if we don't
know who you are, we're not going to let you bleed out on the floor in the emergency room. I think that is the law of most civilized nations. And the
irony here is if you are going to take these 24 million Americans and drive them out of the system because they can't afford it and have them show up
at the emergency room, all you're really doing is putting additional burden on the emergency room. That's going to also drive-up health care costs for
the other Americans who've got traditional private health insurance because that, for the most part, comes in as what's called uncompensated care. The
hospital has to eat it. That means it's going to drive up rates for everybody else.
Some of this is just plain math 101. And the fact that the vice president is, you know, making this baseless false argument, you know, they have
assumed for a while that there's, you know, huge amounts of -- their presumption is all of these programs must be riddled with graft, even in
states that are controlled by Republicans, if somehow non-Americans are getting this assistance. I don't believe that is the case.
And it would be obviously a great black eye for those Republican controlled states where the disproportionate number of people are who are buying
through the marketplaces. But the law is 100 percent explicitly clear. And again, I am disappointed the vice president doesn't know the law of the
country.
MARTIN: Do you see any way forward here? I understand that you specifically on just getting to an agreement, your argument is, as your
other colleagues are on the Democratic side, that the president has to get involved, get in the room and sort of -- and work and work it out.
WARNER: But I also say -- let me just quickly add, I don't think there's any Republican senator I've talked to who hasn't privately said to me,
Mark, you know, we've got to get Trump in this. We can't we're not going to do anything without Trump's approval.
MARTIN: But substantively, do you see a way forward that you could support?
WARNER: Yes, yes.
MARTIN: Because, I mean, there are Republicans who have been consistent. They just say, you know what, the subsidies are too expensive. Like I've
had conversations with Republican senators and some of them are consistent. It's just too expensive. We can't afford it.
WARNER: Yes. I see path forward substantively that avoid the cliff. And if there are reforms that need to be put in place, put us on a path to get
those reforms, avoid the immediate cliff of November, put reforms in place. And frankly, one of the things that I offered some of my Republican
friends, why don't we put into the debate as well? Because of President Trump's tariffs, many of our farming community, particularly in the
Midwest, some of those same Republican states are getting creamed because China is no longer buying soybeans.
We're going to need a $10, $15, $20, $25 billion assistance package for the agriculture community across the country. Why that isn't introduced into
this conversation, I'm not sure why either, because, you know, we're going to get this done and I believe it will get done. And then the president
come back, say, oh, I forgot there's -- you know, we need another bucket of money. Why we wouldn't go ahead and put that into the conversation right
now and get it all resolved and actually show the American people. And for that matter, the rest of the world, we can still function with appropriate
checks and balances. That would be a win for everyone, I think, including the president.
MARTIN: Senator Mark Warner, thank you for speaking with us.
WARNER: Thank you so much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[13:55:00]
AMANPOUR: And finally, talking about leadership, today, thousands of mourners have been pouring into Kenya's capital, Nairobi, to pay respects
to the country's former prime minister, Raila Odinga. So, many people turned out at the airport to welcome him and his body home that it caused a
temporary halt in flights. The outpouring of grief and celebration is testament to the life and legacy of the veteran opposition leader who died
on Wednesday of a heart attack at the age of 80 while traveling in India.
Odinga ran in no less than five presidential campaigns, and he was a key figure in African politics for decades. The current leader, William Ruto,
called him a beacon of courage and the father of our democracy.
That is it for now. Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
