Return to Transcripts main page
Amanpour
Interview with CNN Vatican Correspondent Christopher Lamb; Interview with "Annie Lennox: Retrospective" Author and Musician Annie Lennox, Interview with DAWN Executive Director and "From Apartheid to Democracy" Co-Author Sarah Leah Whitson. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired October 23, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
A historic meeting at the Vatican between Pope Leo and King Charles. The first British monarch to pray with the Pope in 500 years. I speak to
religious scholar Christopher Lamb on the symbolism and the scandals shadowing the monarchy.
Then, a legend of music and style, Grammy-winning star Annie Lennox joins me to reflect on her iconic career and her new visual memoir.
Also, ahead, a disturbing look inside Israel's prisons. Sarah Leah Whitson, executive director at Democracy for the Arab World, speaks with Michel
Martin about allegations of torture and abuse against Palestinian detainees.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
And we begin with a historic visit to the Vatican where Britain's King Charles and Queen Camilla met with Pope Leo. It is the first time in 500
years a British monarch has prayed with the Pope. The history of division goes back to King Henry VIII, who infamously broke with Rome in his
desperation to divorce his first queen, Catherine of Aragon, and marry Anne Boleyn, whom he then had executed.
Today marks a powerful gesture of reconciliation after centuries of conflict between Protestant and Catholic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROWD: Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and shall be, world without end. Amen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: A symbolic encounter between the heads of the Church of England the Catholic Church. Vatican correspondent Christopher Lamb is the author
of "The Outsider: Pope Francis and the Battle to Reform the Church." And he's joining me now from Rome.
Christopher, welcome to the program. Were you also -- given you're a scholar of all of this, did it send chills up your spine? Did you sort of,
you know, internalize the history of what we're seeing?
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Christiane, yes, it was really extraordinary to witness this. And I really felt like I was seeing,
you know, an historical and extraordinary moment. And, you know, it is an amazing turnaround.
As you said, 500 years ago, King Henry VIII broke with Rome and established himself as leader of the Church of England. And in the centuries
afterwards, the relationship between the papacy and the monarchy was one of conflict, tension and suspicion. The Vatican or the Holy See and the
British state only reestablished relations in 1982.
And so, to see this moment where a king and a pope, an English king and a pope, were praying together in the Sistine Chapel beneath the frescoes of
Michelangelo with the Vatican choirs and the royal choirs singing together, it really was an extraordinary moment.
And I think also partly this is down to King Charles' own personal faith. He seems to have a very strong faith. And he is willing to engage with the
Catholic Church in a way that no monarch, no British monarch has done in centuries. So, it really did feel like an extraordinary moment to witness
today.
AMANPOUR: And, Christopher, Buckingham Palace waived its essential ban on seeing any monarch, any British monarch, pray in public. They allowed these
pictures. So, it was a clear message. And as you said, the king is not only known for his personal faith, but also as sort of an ecumenical activist,
if you like, as well. I mean, he believes in interfaith.
On the bigger picture of interfaith at a time like today, not just between Catholic and Protestant, but on a bigger picture, you know, Jews, Muslims,
Christians in this very, very difficult and turbulent world right now.
[13:05:00]
LAMB: Yes, absolutely. And I think this visit sent a message that divisions and disagreements of the past can be overcome, that they don't
have to define the future. I think that's what it was saying today. I mean, the, you know, the intra-church battles have been violence. They've led to
death. They've led to war. They've led to deaths, to martyrs.
But today was a sign, a symbol that those divisions, however deeply felt, don't have to be -- don't have to have the last word. And I think that's
what was being communicated very strongly today by Pope Leo and King Charles. Pope Leo is concerned about polarization and division.
And his meeting with the king, I think, shows that dialogue is possible, that it's important to listen. It's important to have an ability to talk to
people who you still do have disagreements with. I mean, let's be clear. The Catholic Church and the Church of England the wider Anglican communion
do have profound differences, particularly when it comes to the ordination of women, for example. The Catholic Church bars the ordination of women,
but the Anglican Church does not.
And so, despite that, though, and this is what a Vatican official emphasized to me, despite the deep disagreements, the visit today shows
that those don't have to define the relationship. And I think that's a very powerful message to communicate today.
AMANPOUR: And you mentioned, you know, ordaining women, whereas we know Sarah Mullally has recently been appointed Archbishop of Canterbury, the
head of the Anglican Church just after the king. And that's a first, the first woman to lead the Anglican Church. And as you say, clearly, the
Catholics don't allow that at the moment.
But even though Pope Leo hosted the king and queen, did this invitation come from Pope Leo? Did it come from Buckingham Palace? Was it something
that Pope Francis has set in motion? Do you know what led to it and why it's taken this long, 500 years for this to happen?
LAMB: Well, this visit had been planned under Pope Francis. King Charles and Queen Camilla were to undertake a state visit to the Vatican in April.
But because Pope Francis got unwell and was hospitalized, it had to be postponed. The king, though, did manage to briefly greet Pope Francis
earlier this year when he was undertaking a state visit to Italy. So, Pope Leo is the second pope that King Charles has met this year. So, this is
something that comes from the Francis pontificate, but has been taken up by Leo.
I mean, more broadly, in the last, say, 60 years, the Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion have been undertaking a dialogue. They've been
seeking to work more closely together. They've been trying to resolve doctrinal and other differences that's been going on for the last 60 years.
It really began when the Archbishop of Canterbury, Michael Ramsey, the then-Archbishop, met with Pope Paul VI, that then started a dialogue, which
in many ways has been the sort of context to what we saw today, which also included King Charles going to the Basilica of St. Paul outside the walls,
a very important Roman basilica, where he sat on a chair that had engraved on it, that they may be one, which is the motto, really, of the movement to
try and bring the Christian churches closer together.
AMANPOUR: Yes. It's really interesting, and all those little details speak real volumes. I said when we started that you had written a book about Pope
Francis, and I understand that you're going to publish next year your book on Pope Leo.
So, in the time that he's been pontiff, and let's not forget he's American, brought up in South America, is his agenda and where he's headed and where
the Church is headed becoming clearer?
LAMB: Yes, I think in the last few weeks the Leo papacy has really taken off, and I think it is clear that Pope Leo wants to continue with the
reforms and the direction that Pope Francis wanted to take the Catholic Church, whether it comes down to things like protecting the environment,
calling out for better treatment of immigrants, but also reforms inside the Catholic Church, which Pope Francis was keen to develop and keen to move
forward on.
[13:10:00]
Of course, Leo is the first American pope in history. It's extraordinary that the cardinals chose an American pope. It was previously thought
impossible that that would happen, but Leo is also someone who spent many years in Latin America. So, he follows on from the first Latin American
pope. And his vision of the Church is really shaped by his time, his years in Peru. And so, he is someone who is very much in line with the Francis
vision of the Church.
Of course, he does have a quite different personality to Francis. Pope Francis was quite, you know, a very charismatic pope, a real disruptor, you
could say, to the clerical and Vatican establishment. Leo is a more low-key individual. He's a bit more process-focused. He's perhaps a bit more
reserved, but he is determined, and he clearly wants to build on the vision of the Church that Pope Francis articulated and the reforms that he began.
AMANPOUR: You know, I'm still thinking also about what you said, both Pope Francis and Pope Leo showed a willingness to criticize America and
certainly this president on issues, issues that they believed defied the charity that the Church is meant to stand for, whether immigration or other
such things.
Leo doesn't do it in a direct way. Here's what he said recently, addressed to, you know, the Trump administration, maybe to the president. Here's what
he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE LEO XIV: As someone who says that I'm against abortion, but I'm in agreement with the inhuman treatment of immigrants in the United States, I
don't know if that's pro-life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, in general, addressing what he, I guess, sees as hypocrisy when it comes to this issue.
LAMB: Well, I thought those remarks from Leo were very significant because what he was doing there was he was explaining that to be pro-life does not
simply mean being anti-abortion. Now, there are those in the Catholic Church in the United States who want political opposition to abortion to be
the front and center priority for the Church, and indeed the bishops of the United States have wanted that.
But what Leo was saying in those remarks is that the pro -- to be pro-life means more than just opposing abortion. It's a broader canvas, and his
remarks about abortion were also linked to the death penalty. So, Pope Francis, during his papacy, changed Catholic teaching to say that the death
penalty is inadmissible. That received a backlash from certain conservative Catholics in the United States, and when Leo made those remarks about
abortion and the death penalty and immigration, he also has received a lot of criticism from conservative Catholics.
But what Leo is doing there is he's saying that you can't just isolate one issue when it comes to Catholic teaching. To defend life means to defend
all life, and I think that is going to be his approach, even though it means he is likely to face criticism from some parts of the Church and, of
course, political opposition from supporters of the president.
AMANPOUR: Well, Christopher Lamb, thank you very much indeed. It's really been a very important day, and I'm glad you were there to walk us through
it. Thank you.
Stay with CNN. We'll be right back after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:15:00]
AMANPOUR: Next to a Grammy-winning star whose voice and style defined a generation, Annie Lennox. From her groundbreaking work with the Eurythmics
to her powerful solo career, Lennox has long pushed musical and cultural boundaries.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And now, she's reflecting on that remarkable journey in a new visual memoir called "Annie Lennox: Retrospective," a collection of photos,
lyrics, and memories from her extraordinary career. And Annie Lennox is joining us live from Los Angeles. How are you?
ANNIE LENNOX, AUTHOR, "ANNIE LENNOX: RETROSPECTIVE" AND MUSICIAN: I'm great, actually. Thank you, Christiane. Really good.
AMANPOUR: This is a really arresting book, in fact. And I was just thinking as I was just reading the introduction and we saw "Sweet Dreams"
and you're all in your suit, your man suit, you've got the punky, close- cropped orange hair and you talk about that a lot, that image in your book. Tell me about the style that you -- just talk about that image because it
was quite, you know, cutting edge at the time.
LENNOX: Well, I've actually --
AMANPOUR: Ah, there it is. There it is.
LENNOX: There it is. This is the image that you're talking about.
AMANPOUR: This is the image, yeah.
LENNOX: And it made the -- yes. It made front cover of the book because I felt in a way there's something like an arrival point. We had been through
so many evolutions as young, aspiring musicians and performers and recording artists.
You know, Dave and I, before Eurythmics, were in a band called The Tourists and we had a little bit of success and we travelled the world and we did
all that and then it kind of came to nothing. So, we had to -- we wanted to reinvent ourselves. So, there'd been -- I look on those days as a rehearsal
really for what was to come. We didn't know what was to come but Eurythmics actually broke through in a very big way with "Sweet Dreams." This image is
almost like the accumulation of everything that we had learnt, in a sense, coming through, you know?
AMANPOUR: Yes, and I want to go back because you mentioned Dave, that is Dave Stewart, who was your partner in Tourists, in Eurythmics and also your
romantic partner for a while. And I was touched. I mean, I read, you know, the blurbs by the pictures and you said you couldn't imagine not continuing
to work with him even though it was so sad and so difficult to break up. And you did go on to have this incredible professional relationship with
somebody who, you know, was causing heartbreak as well.
LENNOX: Well --
AMANPOUR: Both ways.
LENNOX: -- cause heartbreak.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
LENNOX: There was heartbreak but no-one meant to cause heartbreak, I think, in a sense.
AMANPOUR: Yes. OK. No, I understand.
LENNOX: Do you see what I mean?
AMANPOUR: Yes, I do.
LENNOX: Gosh. I think it was like this. There was myself and Dave, and that's one and one, but we made three because Eurythmics was bigger than us
and we knew that and somehow our purpose was so strong and our vision was so strong that, yes, we continued.
And "Sweet Dreams" is really, in a way, it's symbolic of things like the day that this song, "Sweet Dreams," was written in the studio, I had
thought that was the day I probably was planning to go back to Scotland for good because I felt like we'd had so much failure as people -- you know, in
their lives, you have failures, supposed failure and success, and we'd had a series of failures and some success and I just thought that was the end
of it. And then "Sweet Dreams" was written on that day.
And I think life, it's so symbolic, in a way, of how life can be when you think you're at the end of days, you know, and then something can happen
synchronistically that turns it around.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
LENNOX: There doesn't seem to be any logic in it, do you know what I mean?
AMANPOUR: Yes. It's amazing.
LENNOX: Yes.
AMANPOUR: I mean, there is a logic somewhere, but it is amazing that instead of, you know, sort of tossing it in, you actually did the song and
it sailed you forth on yet another long, long wave of success. So, you've never written a book, you've done all the other cultural stuff that a
singer does, but you've never actually written a book, right?
LENNOX: Right.
AMANPOUR: So, why now and why in this format, the visual memoir?
[13:20:00]
LENNOX: It just came to my awareness that there were thousands of images in the zeitgeist. You know, when you put -- when you take a photograph,
let's say, and it's out there on the web, you don't even know who's looking at it, when they're looking at it. You don't know, you don't have any
control. But they're there nevertheless.
So, there were roughly about 6,000 images that were in the cloud and they were all accounted for. And we kind of just pulled down hundreds and put
them into categories. And it was like a revisitation of all the things that I personally had been through in terms of being creative, you know. And it
was just a moment to reflect on that because most of the time as a creative person, you're going on to what's next, you know. And I thought there's so
much work behind every single image in this book that people don't know, and they don't need to know, but it's there.
And it represents in a way for me, definitely a nostalgia, and it represents certain accomplishments, and it represents timeframes and music
as the background of one's life. And I just think of it as a chocolate box that's tied up in a nice bowl. And it's like, this is my life, folks.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
LENNOX: Partly, part of my life is in this book. Yes.
AMANPOUR: It absolutely is. So, look, I'm a huge David Bowie fan. And I have to admit that I often, when I look at some of your photos, and
including in the book, some of the outfits, some of the positions, some of the boots you choose and you wore, I find it very Bowie. And then I read
that you did -- you know, you performed with him on stage, and you called it, I don't know, nerve-wracking. You were never so scared in your life.
You hope you didn't, you know, screw up and this and that. So, I'm just going to play this little bit, and then I want to talk to you about it.
LENNOX: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: I mean, really, that's amazing. I don't know whether you can see the pictures. You know it, I mean, you're wearing the black on your eyes.
You're all, you know, white-faced, and it's really incredible. Did David Bowie know the outfit you were going to wear?
LENNOX: No, he didn't know what I was going to wear, but he did suggest that I get Anthony Price to make me a dress. And dresses are not, dresses
are not something I very often wore. So, I thought, OK, if it's going to be a dress, and I'm going to be with David Bowie, I wanted to equal his power,
you know. And so, this dress came about. It's like -- it's almost like metal armor. It's -- although it's material, it's fabric, silver fabric on
the top, it's a bit Joan of Arc meets, God knows, like Grace Jones, phenomenal, huge crinoline, you know.
It was powerful, because when I stepped on the stage, he wasn't expecting it at all, because we'd be rehearsing together. There's even footage of
that somewhere in the internet, with me and him rehearsing together. But it was a completely different setup. When we went to do the performance on
stage, it kind of elevated to something. I don't know, it was a really, truly special moment for me. I am, admittedly, a huge David Bowie fan. I
don't imagine anybody who wouldn't be. He was just a master.
But I was inspired by him, as so many people were. And I just wanted to do something that would kind of be complementary to his power.
AMANPOUR: I'm just going to say, he did look a bit surprised, as you were -- that clip, he's looking a little surprised. So --
LENNOX: He stepped back.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
LENNOX: Yes, he was.
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes. So, now that you're explaining it, I get it. I was like, why is he doing that? Did you choreograph that bit that we just saw,
or was that all planned between the two of you?
LENNOX: No, no, we never discussed what we would do. And so, everything was very spontaneous. And I just had a feeling that I wanted to get closer
to him because I was standing a few feet apart from him. But I think, you know, to come together in this sort of cumulative moment, like, just
spontaneously and hoping that he wouldn't be too shocked, I kind of put my arm around his neck.
It's -- that's what performance is. I mean, you can have things choreographed for sure. But I think that's that -- I think part of the
excitement about that is that you actually -- in a way, you can't tell what's going to happen. I didn't know what was going to happen. He didn't
know what was going to happen. It's like, what the hell is going on?
AMANPOUR: It was good. I mean, it's powerful. And again, in the same look --
LENNOX: Thank you.
[13:25:00]
AMANPOUR: -- you know, much has been made of your androgynous look. I don't know whether you were the first to take that look on. Clearly, others
have copied it since or maybe even before. But it was very androgynous, very powerful. The suits, the short hair that we were just talking about.
Here's a clip from a video where you look sort of quintessentially feminine, "There Must Be an Angel," the wonderful song. We're just going to
let it play for a little bit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: It's so gorgeous. And some might say it looks pre-Raffaellite. So, you careers between looks. How did -- I mean, what were you thinking,
for instance, when you went from very severe to very soft?
LENNOX: I'm thinking creatively and I'm thinking what -- who am I as a performer, you know, with the "Sweet Dreams," this kind of look here, it's
about taking some power. I'm certainly not the first woman who's ever worn a suit. We have so many, you know, Marlene Dietrich and Greta Garbo and
just so many fantastic women. But I think it was about empowerment.
I have to remember those days were in the late '70s, in the early '80s. It was a very different time, Christiane. And this was before we were talking
gender fluid, this -- I was given the label gender bender, and it was actually quite provocative here in America because people did take some
umbrage with it. But for me, I think historically, female performers have often drawn on their male power to actually have that strength and that
presence on stage. And I just wanted to break -- personally, I just wanted to break with convention and then break it again and become female.
So, there's always this possibility to keep evolving and keep changing. That's what artistry is about from my perspective.
AMANPOUR: It's really interesting you put it like that in terms of empowerment. You write in the book, let me get my specs on, even as I look
at these photographs now, I see a particular kind of courage and confidence it takes to look directly into a camera lens like this. And again, I don't
know whether we have the picture up, but so were you -- did you have to sort of gather your courage or were you naturally courageous and naturally
empowered?
LENNOX: Well, it's very interesting because I think as a performer, you do have to gather your courage. I think even yourself, I know you'll identify
with this, just being in front of a camera, it's not something that necessarily comes naturally. So, you do have to practice being in front of
a camera. And there's not much chance for practice really because you're right there.
I mean, I'm talking to you now and we're -- you know, we're going out live broadcast to millions of people probably. And I think the more you do of
it, the more accustomed you can become to it. And then, yes, you have to learn how to look at a camera, how to do it, how to stand in front of a
camera, how to be in front of a camera.
And this is all about performance for me and having the freedom to go from one persona to the next, it's a little bit like being an actor, but at the
same time, it's more than that because you're not pretending to be someone else, you're being an aspect of yourself.
AMANPOUR: Yes, you know, you just mentioned the word practice, et cetera, and I just, again, you know, alighted on one of the pages where you said,
you guys, with Dave, tried a lot of stuff, whether it was outfits or whether it was songs. And -- but you knew what you wanted to be. You knew
the image, you knew the sound, you knew the visuals of what you guys wanted to be, and you were constantly tossing stuff out if it didn't match up.
LENNOX: Yes, yes.
AMANPOUR: It's quite a lot of work.
LENNOX: Yes, we were. I mean, with Eurythmics, it was 10 solid years of touring, of writing, of making videos, of writing songs, of doing photo
sessions. It was a very, very productive time, and in a way -- at the end, it kind of does tend to eat up your life. So, I can see why a lot of young
people who come into the music industry, which will eat you up, because it's very carnivorous, you know, it's a cannibalistic place, the business.
And without the right kind of boundaries, you can swiftly become, you know, sort of untethered, let's put it to you like that.
And I think longevity is quite a rare thing in the music business game. And for me, it was a question of, I don't want to let this stardom eat me up. I
wanted to always be grounded and a person that can go and go to the shops and be normal, as well as doing the other thing.
[13:30:00]
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes, yes. Buy a loaf of bread, buy a pint of milk. I hear you. I think it's really interesting, you said in the book, or actually in
an interview with Vogue, you said, I've got to feel that what I'm wearing tells you something about myself. And then in the book, we hear that, you
know, your sort of mind works, as you said, back to front. You work backwards, staring at the present, then moving back into the past. Tell me
what that means and how it looks and what does it mean for writing a song?
LENNOX: Looking backwards, I think, the funny thing is that time marches on. And, you know, before we've even blinked our eyes, we're into the
future, as it were. And I'm fascinated by history. I'm fascinated by the fact that, you know, our ancestors, and I have my ancestors, by the way,
I'm going to show you. My ancestors are here.
AMANPOUR: Oh, those -- yes, those are great pictures.
LENNOX: Here are my ancestors.
AMANPOUR: Yes. From Scotland.
LENNOX: Yes. Yes, in Scotland, in the northeast of Scotland.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
LENNOX: And I thought I wanted to start with my maternal line from the past because it's nothing to do with who I became. And it's -- I mean,
probably I'm the first woman in the whole of my family that ever-stepped foot on a stage, you know, and how hard the women had to work. Most of my
family were not wealthy. We were not -- we were -- when I look back into my history, people were paupers, you know, and millions of us were paupers.
And it's just -- you have to remember that there were people that went before you and that without them, you wouldn't be here.
And how different it is. We're in the technological age. We've come through the industrial time. And everything was very, very labor-intensive.
Incredible -- you know, they didn't have holidays. They didn't have electricity. They didn't have cars, airplanes, phones. And we've adapted to
all of that. And you can see it in the "Sweet Dreams" video that there's some reference to modernity and technology.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
LENNOX: And how we've got the cow there that, you know, is as ancient as days.
AMANPOUR: Yes, the cow, that's a good picture. Just very, very briefly. Are there musical artists who you listen to? Has your own taste evolved? I
mean, obviously it has, I'm sure. But your book is a treasure trove for those of us who grew up on your music. What about the younger generation?
LENNOX: I think it's a very different -- the business model, let's say, of the music industry compared to how it was when I started out, it's very,
very different. I was rare in the fact that I was -- I am female. And there were a few singer-songwriters, female singer-songwriters there. Now, you
have thousands. I mean, everybody has the possibility to make music in their bedrooms, you know, with the technology today. You're just working on
a computer. It's a very, very different scene.
And, I mean, I don't know how I would honestly have fared if I had to be a young musician now, because I think it's very, very hardcore in so many
ways. There's so much competition now. We have A.I. that's coming in. Of course, it's here already. And young musicians are concerned about how are
they possibly going to be able to become, you know, future musicians if they can't sustain themselves.
AMANPOUR: Well, it's an amazing story. It's been wonderful having this conversation. The book is really something to --
LENNOX: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: -- look at and to read as well. "Annie Lennox: Retrospective." Thank you so much.
LENNOX: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Thank you. And we'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:35:00]
AMANPOUR: The scenes were chaotic. Last Monday, nearly 2,000 Palestinians released from Israeli prisons as part of the ceasefire deal that also saw
the remaining living Israeli hostages finally freed. Who are these Palestinians? Why were they detained? Michel Martin poses these questions
to Sarah Leah Whitson, executive director of DAWN, Democracy for the Arab World Now. And a warning, this conversation does contain content that some
may find distressing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Sarah Leah Whitson, thank you so much for speaking with us.
SARAH LEAH WHITSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, DAWN AND CO-AUTHOR, "FROM APARTHEID TO DEMOCRACY": Thank you for having me.
MARTIN: We wanted to speak to you because you are a human rights lawyer. Your work focuses on the Middle East. In the wake of the, I'll call it a
deal, the agreement to at least bring a ceasefire to the Gaza War, a lot of attention has been focused on the harrowing conditions that Israeli
hostages had been living under.
What's also been taking place is that Palestinians who had been held by the Israeli authorities have also been released. And I think at this point,
about 2,000 prisoners have been released. And I don't know that there has been as much attention on the conditions that they have been living under.
So, the first thing I wanted to ask you is why were these people detained or arrested to begin with?
WHITSON: Sure.
There was a massive uptick in imprisonment of Palestinians, primarily from Gaza but also from the West Bank, in the immediate wake of the October 7
attacks. The number of Palestinian detainees held in Israeli military camps or in Israeli prisons more than quintupled. Many of these -- most of these
from Gaza were detained under Israel's so-called unlawful combatants' law, which allows it to detain people outside of the State of Israel on
allegations of membership in a terrorist organization. But many are also detained under Israel's administrative detention law, which allows Israel's
defense minister or military commanders to detain anyone, typically a Palestinian, of course, on the basis that they pose a security risk, on the
basis of secret evidence, that can be renewed indefinitely in perpetuity without the detainee ever even knowing why they're being detained.
MARTIN: About 1,700 of the 2,000 people who were released had never been through any kind of a process, a judicial process. Is that right?
WHITSON: That's accurate because under the administrative detention law, no one needs to be prosecuted or sentenced in order to remain imprisoned.
There are cases of Palestinian detainees who've been held for over a decade under so-called administrative detention on the basis of secret evidence,
that their lawyers never have an opportunity to actually challenge. And in the wake of these -- of the past two years, detainees have technically had
their detention renewed in some kind of a judicial process, but that judicial process has entailed typically a military judge, so a soldier, who
has a video call with the detainee lasting in some cases less than two minutes, where the detention is automatically renewed.
So, there's no actual substantive review or opportunity to appeal or opportunity to defend oneself for these thousands and thousands of
Palestinians who are detained under administrative detention or under the combatants law, the unlawful combatants law, which is even worse because
under the unlawful combatants law, the burden of proof is on the detainee to prove that they are not a security threat to Israel, even if they don't
know and may never know the basis on which, the secret evidence on which they have been detained.
MARTIN: I understand that about 1,700 of them were held under these terms that you've been describing, this administrative detention. What about the
rest?
WHITSON: So, 250 to 300 of those who were exchanged as part of the hostage deal include Palestinians who were convicted by Israeli criminal courts
under Israeli criminal law for various offenses, some of whom had life sentences against them for crimes committed against Israelis from decades
ago, some of whom had been convicted of lesser offenses, membership in Hamas, a variety of different offenses, some from the West Bank.
[13:40:00]
I believe 150 of those who were released have been exiled. So, not only were they released, but they were forced to leave Palestine completely.
MARTIN: No Western journalists have been able to enter Gaza since Israel's military campaign began there when the war broke out in October of 2023.
So, we are now relying on accounts from people who have been released, family members, et cetera. Do you know, what were their circumstances?
Like, who are they?
WHITSON: We know that among the 1,700 released were a handful of children, some women, a few dozen over the age of 60. And so, primarily a male
population detained under administrative detention and released without any charge ever having been brought against them. So, these are people who were
never charged with anything.
And the reports that we're seeing of people who've come out, and I imagine people are seeing them in the news, is of severe torture, severe abuse,
sexual violence, rape, humiliation, degradation, and, you know, virtually very limited access to medical care. The most disturbing, of course, is the
recent revelations that among the bodies of Palestinians returned, 135 of them show that they were executed with their hands tied behind their backs
after suffering extreme torture. And the images are so graphic that they actually haven't been even posted on the media. But we have the journalists
who've seen the images reporting on them.
MARTIN: And forgive me for -- let's be clear for a minute. When we're talking about torture, what do we mean?
WHITSON: Well, what people have reported and what has been documented are cases of rape and sexual assault, in some cases using something called a
hot rod to penetrate the orifices. The --
MARTIN: Are you talking about men and women? Are you talking about males as well as females?
WHITSON: The reported cases we have of actual rape are of men, but there are cases of sexual assault and sexual violence against women detainees as
well. The U.N. has put out extensive reporting on this. Positions for Human Rights in Israel has reported on this. B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights
organization, has extensively documented and reported on this.
You know, we have been warning about the deteriorating conditions in Israeli prisons for over a year now. Since Minister Ben-Gvir took over the
prison services in Israel, he has proudly announced the drastic new conditions that he's imposed on prisoners, depriving them of food,
dramatically limiting their intake of food, limiting their access not only to medical care but even to water, even to electricity, allowing them to
shower once a week in many cases, and of course dramatically restricting their ability to communicate with their family members or even their
lawyers.
MARTIN: Let me jump in for a second and just say in July of 2024, Minister Gvir said on X, the social media platform which is now owned by Elon Musk,
quote, "One of the highest goals I have set for myself is to worsen the conditions of the terrorists in the prisons and to reduce their rights to
the minimum required by law."
Now, we reached out to the Israeli Prison Service for comment about the conditions that Palestinians are being held in. We have not heard back as
of this moment, as of our conversation, but they did give a statement to the Washington Post last week where they said, quote, "All inmates are held
according to legal procedures and their rights including access to medical care and adequate living conditions are upheld by professionally trained
staff," unquote. And Israeli officials told the Associated Press that they follow legal standards for the treatment of prisoners and that any
violations by prison personnel are investigated. So, I guess I would ask you for your response to those comments.
WHITSON: Well, unfortunately, I don't believe that those claims are credible. Even the head of Israel's Shin Bet internal security forces
issued a public letter lambasting the prison services and Minister Ben-Gvir for the violation of detainee rights in Israeli custody. And the fact that
over 80 Palestinian prisoners have died in custody and that fact that Israeli courts are now criminally investigating Israeli prison officials
for the deaths of 34 of those detainees, the fact that countless human rights organizations have documented the near starvation conditions, which
we can see with our own eyes with some of the released Palestinians and their gaunt appearance documenting how much weight they've lost.
[13:45:00]
The fact that the International Committee of the Red Cross has been banned from actually monitoring prison conditions is yet another indication. If
Israeli prison services didn't have anything to hide, they wouldn't be prohibiting even the ICRC from access. Unfortunately, the -- Minister Ben-
Gvir and the Israeli prison services have, I would say, little to zero credibility in their claims, which are abundantly rebutted by the actual
facts.
MARTIN: So, as you pointed out, the circumstances under which people have been detained are not necessarily made public, the charges are not made
public, or the allegations are not made public. But do you have any sense of the people who remain in detention?
WHITSON: So, the estimates of detainees basically, over the past two years, so not people with pre-existing criminal prosecutions, have ranged
from 9,500 to 12,000. And part of the reason for the variance of the number is that there are hundreds, if not thousands of people missing, and we
don't actually know what's happened to them.
So, for example, the 135 Palestinian bodies that were just exchanged as part of the hostage swap, had no names attached to them, they had only
numbers. Israelis who had detained them never bothered or are not releasing their actual names. And it's really part of the dehumanization process to
reduce human beings to numbers.
MARTIN: Of the people who remain in detention, do you have any visibility into who they are, what charges there may be against them, or under what
circumstances they were detained?
WHITSON: Of those who have been detained, let's just say in the last two years, since the October 7 attack in Israel, there are -- there have been
criminal charges brought under Israeli criminal law against approximately 300 people. I believe these are people who were captured, you know, while
committing the crimes and the murders on October 7. But those are the cases in which there are actual criminal charges.
So, for the other thousands and thousands of detainees, they're held under two different laws. One is the administrative detention law and one is the
illegal or unlawful combatant's law.
MARTIN: Well, first, I would say Israeli officials say that these, these detentions are meant to protect against very real and credible security
threats. And they point to October 7, as an example of that, like how would you respond to that?
WHITSON: Well, I think every time anyone is detained anywhere in the world, it is to prevent further harm. It's because the person is deemed to
be a security risk, not just to punish them, but to prevent them from committing future crimes. That is the whole model of incarceration. But
there are global rules that apply to every country in the world, including Israel.
Israel is not above the law that applies to the United States, or to China or to Russia, with respect to how detainees may be treated, with respect to
their ability to have access to food, water, medical care, access to a lawyer, a right to connect with their family members. And these are all
rules that are enshrined very clearly in international law. And that Israel has been neglecting for a very long time, but has, you know, completely
abandoned in the past two years.
MARTIN: There are some who will hear this conversation, and will say that that's unfortunate. That's even cruel. It's possibly wrong. But it's rough
justice, in a way, because Hamas attacked Israel on October 7. Women, babies, you know, children, you know, kidnapped. People were held in brutal
conditions. People were killed under these brutal conditions. People were starved. You know, Israeli hostages were starved. And Hamas did not conform
to any standards of international law or human rights. But what would you say to someone who has that point of view?
WHITSON: The point of international law is that it is the law, and it is what is going to distinguish law abiding nations, law abiding governments,
from lawless governments. Because if the governments act as brutally and viciously as the people they are purporting to fight against, it's really
just a race to the bottom.
[13:50:00]
And if you look at the response of Israel to the attacks on October 7, I think anyone would be hard pressed to say that Hamas' attack and the
horrible murders they committed there were somehow worse than the exponentially more massive and indiscriminate and wide scale destruction of
Palestinian lives, which has now exceeded over 60,000. And I'm sure we'll discover exceeds much more than that.
MARTIN: Is the argument here -- this isn't like a contest of atrocities here.
WHITSON: No.
MARTIN: Is the issue here that that Israel as a nation state, as a member of the community of nations, should be held to the same standard as other
nation states? Is that the core of the argument?
WHITSON: I think it's absolutely the core of the argument. But this is not just about holding Israel to the same standards of international law. It's
about recognizing and starting with the understanding that Israel's occupation of Palestinian territory is unlawful. And the International
Court of Justice and the U.N. General Assembly have ordered Israel to end its occupation, to withdraw its forces and withdraw its settlers from
occupied Palestinian territories
Occupation, illegal occupation, apartheid rule, these are also crimes. So, this is not just about, well, let's meet the standards of the rest of the
International Community. It's about rightly focusing on the severe Israeli crimes that international courts of justice have ordered be brought to an
end.
MARTIN: Sarah Leah Whitson, thank you so much for joining us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: We continue to ask Israeli officials onto the program. And just to note, U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance again stated the Trump
administration will not allow the Israeli government to annex the occupied West Bank.
And finally, a running phenomenon. She's broken multiple records, won 12 world titles, and she's still going at the age of 92. Italian elite
sprinter Emma Mazzenga refuses to let age slow her down, training twice a week, all year round. Antonia Mortensen traveled to Padua, Italy to find
out the secrets of her longevity.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
EMMA MAZZENGA, 200 METER WORLD RECORD HOLDER, OVER 90S (through translator): I really feel the competition. Part from the fact that I like
the competition, I just like the competition. And even now, maybe a little less than in the past I still feel tense before each race.
ANTONIA MORTENSEN, CNN SENIOR PRODUCER (voice-over): Emma Mazzenga is no ordinary 92-year-old. She's an Italian elite sprinter who has broken
multiple world records.
MORTENSEN (through translator): What was your personal best, for the 200 meters?
MAZZENGA (through translator): The best time was last summer in June. I did 50 and 34.
MORTENSEN (VOICE-OVER): Born in 1933, Emma made headlines when she broke the indoor 200-meter world record in her age group in 2024 with a time of
54.47. She's a real testament that it's never too late to start again. Emma stopped training after college where she ran track. She became a high
school teacher, got married, started a family, and then at the age of 53, after a 25-year hiatus, dusted off her running shoes.
MAZZENGA (through translator): I resumed training in 1986. I also had a coach, and I always trained three times a week, initially a couple of
hours, now one hour a day.
This is my first European gold medal. Yes, this was the first world title.
MORTENSEN (through translator): And how was the feeling when you won, the first world title?
MAZZENGA (through translator): It is beautiful beause then you go to the podium they play the national anthem, and that is always a very emotional
thing.
MORTENSEN (through translator): Tell me a little bit about your daily routine.
MAZZENGA (through translator): At 5:00 in the morning I'm awake. I have breakfast and generally have a ham sandwich or salami sandwich, and then do
various things. I go outside, I go for a walk, I go shopping, I do some cleaning around the house. And generally, I have a snack. I have a fruit, a
couple of cookies.
Then at 12:00 lunch of course, and I eat some pasta. 30, 40 grams of pasta and meat of fish and vegetables.
MORTENSEN (voice-over): The nanogenarian's uniqueness attracted the attention of a team of Italian and American scientists, and she's now part
of an ongoing international study trying to understand how someone her age can not only run but so fast. So, far, they found that Mazzenga's
cardiorespiratory fitness is similar to that of someone in their 50s, and her muscles' mitochondria function is as healthy as a 20-year-old's.
[13:55:00]
MORTENSEN (through translator): What would be your advice for others who want to be or stay fir like you?
MAZZENGA (through translator): I would say that first of all check the diet and then do constant physical activity. The physical activity in
particular which is quite challenging, is not only for the body but also the spirit.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And brava. That's it for now, but we will also leave you with a little more Annie Lennox, this time from 2018, when she wowed me by singing
right here in the studio. So, thank you for watching and goodbye from London.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
