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Amanpour
Interview with Former Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba; Interview with "Oedipus" Actor Mark Strong; Interview with "Oedipus" Actor Lesley Manville; Interview with "Heart Life Music" Author and Singer/Songwriter Kenny Chesney. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired November 26, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: He's going to sell this to Ukraine. He's going to sell Ukraine to Russia. That's what he's -- that's what a
dealmaker does.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: President Trump standing by Special Envoy Steve Witkoff amidst reports that he coached a close Putin aide on getting a Ukraine deal. Is
Kyiv about to be sold out? We'll ask the former Ukrainian foreign minister, Dmytro Kuleba.
Then, the 2,500-year-old play that's tearing up Broadway today. I speak with "Oedipus" stars Mark Strong and Lesley Manville about their thrilling
new production of a Sophocles classic as fresh as today's headlines.
And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNY CHESNEY, AUTHOR, "HEART LIFE MUSIC" AND SINGER/SONGWRITER: I had no idea music was going to be my life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- Walter Isaacson speaks with Country Music Hall of Famer Kenny Chesney about his best-selling memoir, "Heart Life Music."
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
Since when has ending a war seeking peace been so controversial? Well, the Trump administration's latest foray there is a prime example. Delegations
from Kyiv, Washington, and Europe meet to overhaul the Trump peace plan, which critics say sounded chapter and verse like Putin's permanent wish
list. Adding fuel to the firestorm of protest, a leaked transcript released by Bloomberg of a phone call between U.S. Special Envoy Steve Witkoff and
Putin's main peace negotiator especially coaching the Russian leader on how to get the most out of Trump. But the U.S. president has waived off any
concerns while still using Kremlin-esque talking points. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The way it's going, if you look, it's just moving in one direction. So, eventually, that's land that over the next couple of months might be
gotten by Russia anyway. So, do you want to fight and lose another 50,000, 60,000 people or do you want to do something now?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Of course, it was Trump's refusal to allow Congress to pass U.S. military aid to Ukraine that hurt a lot throughout 2024. Though that bill
eventually did pass, now his envoy was entertaining Russia's maximalist demands that any final plan must block NATO membership to Ukraine, reduce
the size of its armed forces, and hand over all of the Donbas to Russia, including territory that Russia doesn't even control. Trump says Witkoff
will travel to Moscow for more of these negotiations next week.
Meanwhile, civilian casualties in Ukraine spike as Russia intensifies its attacks on energy infrastructure and other areas.
For more on this, let us now bring in Dmytro Kuleba, who was Ukraine's foreign minister until last year. So, let me just ask you point blank.
First, welcome to the program. Do you feel that the current setup is a recipe for selling Ukraine down the river, selling out Ukraine?
DMYTRO KULEBA, FORMER UKRAINIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, I don't really see how this latest effort differs from what we saw in February, March this
year, or following the summit in Alaska. So, there is kind of a deja vu effect where things just repeat themselves from time to time in the course
of the year. And they failed before. I believe this is going to fail as well.
The problem is different. The problem is how can we change the way President Trump and his team handles this war? That is fundamental. But
whether Ukraine can or cannot be sold out will not be decided neither in Moscow nor in Washington. It will be decided in Ukraine and in the European
Union. Because as long as we as a Europe hold our line, none of them, none of other leaders will be able to sold us out.
AMANPOUR: You know, let me just play then, since you bring up the European Union. And of course, we know that over this past weekend, they were
enraged and all gathered to try to pull this so-called Trump peace plan, 28-point plan, back to some kind of acceptable, reasonable negotiating
framework.
[13:05:00]
This is what President Macron has said. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT: We are clearly at a crucial juncture. Negotiations are getting a new impetus. And we should size this momentnot
because there is reason for alarm. Ukraine is solid, Russia is slow, and Europe is steadfast. But because there is finally a chance to make real
progress toward a good peace.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: OK. Foreign Minister, I think the two points he makes are very interesting. So, he says Europe is steadfast and there's finally a chance
to make progress towards a good peace. I want to ask you to react to that bit of what Macron said first.
KULEBA: Well, I think it is important to look into November 2026 now and realize one fact, that if things remain as they are, in November 2026,
Ukraine is going to lose more territories, more people. Our economy will be devastated even more, but we will not get a better deal than the one that
is being on the table. So, my point is that it's not enough to be steadfast. Things have to change. Europe has to act faster. Europe has to
be more efficient when it comes to the production of weapons, seizing Russian frozen assets, unblocking accession talks for Ukraine. All of these
things are in the hands of Europe. If Europe wants to be respected and heard, it has to act.
AMANPOUR: And the other thing he said was, we should seize the momentnot because there is reason for alarm. Ukraine is solid, Russia is slow. Your
analysis of that statement?
KULEBA: As I said, Russia is slow. Ukraine is solid, but Russia is still making progress, which means that Ukrainian army is solid enough not to
allow -- to prevent Russian army from spill overing across Ukraine. We are strong enough not to allow the collapse of the front line, but we are not
strong enough to stop their advancement. This is why I'm making the point that in November 2026, if nothing changes, President Macron will be able to
repeat his words, but Russians will be far more -- in a far more advanced positions compared to where they are now. And things are not going to
improve. So, it's not enough just to be steadfast. Things need to change if we really want to stop Russia.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, that is basically what President Trump essentially alluded to in the clip that I played for him. This is negotiations. This is
how it works. And he said, you know, maybe Russia will just keep fighting and winning and maybe there'll be another 60,000 Ukrainian forces and
people dead over this period. So, I wonder what your reaction to that is.
OK. We're going to go to a break because we've got a little bit of a technical issue. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back. We are still trying to get the former Ukrainian foreign minister. Perhaps there was a blackout there, as is usual, given
Russia's constant attacks on Ukrainian energy infrastructure.
[13:10:00]
But first we're going to go to Hong Kong, where the deadliest fire in decades is still burning. We begin in the densely populated city, where a
massive blaze ripped through a high-rise apartment complex in the North Tai Po district. Authorities say at least 36 people have been killed.
Firefighters say scorching temperatures and drifting debris are hindering efforts to reach people inside the apartments.
Footage from the scene shows flames and thick smoke billowing across multiple buildings. Latching onto bamboo scaffolding and construction
netting that was enveloping the complex. Residents watched as flames and smoke funneled up from the complex. The fire left many people homeless and
in need of shelter.
Correspondent Ivan Watson is at the scene of the fire and filed this report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I can see a third ladder from a fire truck now spraying water on this side of the burning
towers. But I think there are more towers actually burning than I can see. Water hoses spraying on the towers from this side. I think there are five
burning right now. As you can see, there are dozens and dozens of fire trucks that are on the scene.
But this is a deadly fire and is on track to perhaps be one of the deadliest that Hong Kong has seen in decades. Among 13 people confirmed
killed so far and dozens injured are one veteran firefighter who had nine years of experience. A 37-year-old man named Ho Wai-ho and the authorities
have expressed condolences to his family at his loss right now.
But to just give you some context, this is a public housing development that was constructed in 1983. It's called Wong Fook Court and it had more
than 4,000 residents, nearly 2,000 apartments in there. And it looks to me as if the towers of the public housing development are burning from the
top, from the roof down to the bottom floors. And there are no signs of the fires being brought under control.
Now, I don't know from the live image that you're seeing or perhaps Dan can show you, but you can see some of the bamboo scaffolding that sheathes the
left side of one of those towers. There were renovations going on around these towers when the fire broke out. And Hong Kong does its construction
traditionally with bamboo scaffolding, which is lighter and I think that many would argue stronger in some respects than steel, than metal
scaffolding. But it may be that that contributed to the spread of the fire, which the authorities say they got an initial alert about a fire just
before 3:00 p.m. local time on a ground floor area that was under renovation.
And as fire departments were responding to it, it seems to have quickly spread to neighboring towers to such a speed that by just two hours later,
this fireman had already been declared dead. And he was the leader of one of these fire trucks, an experienced officer.
Many of the residents would have been over 65 years old. I am hoping, I am praying that people were evacuated in time to not have been caught in this
terrible inferno that has climbed up at least four of these towers that I'm looking at right now. Because even rescue, I think is impossible to imagine
with these types of flames. And I don't see ladders reaching up into the buildings on this side of the towers. This would be a deadly fire, the
deadliest that I can remember in Hong Kong. And I've lived here for 10 years that has grown completely out of control here in Hong Kong's Tai Po
district.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Thanks to Ivan Watson. Returning now to our top story and the former Ukrainian foreign minister, Dmytro Kuleba. I want to ask you,
Foreign Minister, about these leaked transcripts that Bloomberg has published. And I particularly want to just pray see that in one of them,
Steve Witkoff, the president's special envoy, is talking to Yuri Ushakov, President Putin's special aide, in which he appears to be coaching him on
how to get Putin to call President Trump and how best to make that call go. Apparently, to get the maximalist stuff that the Russians can get out of
it.
So, this is another part of the conversation. I'm going to read it to you. We've got it on the screen. So, this is Steve Witkoff. He's now saying, now
me to you, in other words, this is Steve Witkoff talking directly to Yuri Ushakov.
[13:15:00]
I know what it's going to take to get a peace deal done, Donetsk and maybe a land swap somewhere. But I'm saying, instead of talking like that, let's
talk more hopefully, because I think we're going to get a deal here. And I think, Yuri, the president will give me a lot of space and discretion to
get the deal. And here's one more thing. Zelenskyy is coming to the White House on Friday. I know that, Yuri Ushakov laughs. I will go to that
meeting, says Witkoff, because they want me there. But I think if possible, we have the call with your boss before that Friday meeting. Yuri says,
before, before? Yes. Witkoff says, correct.
Now, I don't know what you make of that, but that is the envoy telling Putin's envoy the parameters of the peace. It's not even the president.
It's the envoy is doing that. And as we know, there is a sort of feeling abroad that Trump listens to the last person in his ear.
And so, apparently the last person he talked to before meeting Zelenskyy in late October was Putin. And it was about the tomahawks that the president
was floating, selling to Zelenskyy. After that meeting, and apparently after having a call with Putin, no more tomahawks. So, how do you -- is
that how you see that?
KULEBA: You're right. The real compromising part of this conversation is when -- is where Steven Witkoff suggests to Yuri Ushakov that Putin calls
Trump because Zelenskyy is coming to Washington. So, we should have no illusions. Of course, the Russian intelligence knew -- was aware that
Zelenskyy was coming.
And in -- like in a different world of diplomacy, it was -- it would have been Russia who had to initiate a call between Putin and Trump. But they
are lucky because they have Steven Witkoff on the other side who actually comes up with his own idea, with exactly the same proposal, in order to
effectively make an impact on the way the meeting between Trump and Zelenskyy would go.
So, for me, from the diplomatic experience perspective, this episode just reaffirms how strongly Mr. Witkoff is trying to help Russia in the effort
to end the war and influence the flow of events inside Trump's team.
AMANPOUR: And it's clearly happening. I don't know what you make because clearly over this weekend, when all of this bust into the open, Marco
Rubio, the secretary of state, flew to Geneva to try to, I don't know, I guess rescue some semblance of an acceptable peace deal.
But here's another leak from a separate call, Mr. Kuleba, between Yuri Ushakov, who we were talking about, and Kirill Dmitriev, another very close
Putin ally who's also apparently very close to Witkoff. This is Ushakov. Well, we need the maximdon't you think? What do you think? Otherwise,
what's the point of passing anything on? Dmitriev, no, look, I think we'll just make this paper from our position and I'll informally pass it along,
making it clear that it's all informal. And I'll let them do like their own. But I don't think they'll take exactly our version, but at least it'll
be as close to it as possible.
So, basically, they're saying that -- well, what do you make of that?
KULEBA: That 28-point plan is a list of Russian ultimatums blended with American ideas on how to make these ultimatums look better than they
actually are. I don't think it's a revelation to anyone that just copy- pasting Russian ultimatums as it was done once again clearly tells you where all this comes from. You know, if it looks like a duck and walks like
a duck, it's probably a duck.
AMANPOUR: Right.
KULEBA: So, if it looks like a Russian ultimatthen probably it is, it comes from Russia.
AMANPOUR: Yes, the problem is that it's being spoken about by the U.S., which are meant to be, A, Ukraine's strongest ally, and B, honest brokers.
So, my question to you is this, you know, A, should Witkoff recuse himself? And B, do you still think the U.S. has a semblance of your back? Clearly,
we know the problems because they've been displayed for global audiences to see between Trump and Zelenskyy. But then things seem to get a little bit
more reasonable, and now it seems to be going off the tracks again.
As Zelenskyy said, when all of this was leaked, we have to make a really difficult decision between our dignity and between a strong ally. He didn't
say the U.S., between the support of a strong ally. So, where do you think that balance is right now?
[13:20:00]
KULEBA: I think timeline is very important. And the time when President Zelenskyy said those words is centuries ago compared to where we are now.
And this leak is a turning point. Because, you know, it's important to analyze what is in it. But the most important question is this. So, someone
is tapping the phones of senior officials. Most probably it was Ushakov's phone because he appears in both conversations while his interlocutors are
different.
Anyone from the intelligence service will tell you that if you're tapping someone, you know, stay silent. Don't let him know that you're doing that.
So, yesterday, someone, and we don't know who is doing that, but the one who was tapping Ushakov's phone found the situation so consequential that
he decided that it's worth exposing the risk, the threat of the situation is worth exposing the tapping.
So, the situation is completely different now. And I think we can bury the 28-point plan because it's discredited, because nothing -- it's very hard
to imagine how you can actually move on from here now.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, let me then ask --
KULEBA: And while --
AMANPOUR: I just need -- because I've got only a little bit of time left. The national security adviser, former Defense Minister Rustem Umerov, has
also publicly expressed some optimism about reaching a common understanding on the core terms. Andriy Yermak has said that we have, and he used the
word, solid security guarantees, I guess, from the United States. Do you think that's true, or is that public relations?
KULEBA: Well, they had to radiate optimism, but at the same time, it was said that the most difficult parts of the plan were left in brackets for
the conversation between Trump and Zelenskyy. And there is a rule in diplomacy, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. And as you can
imagine, if you do not find agreement on the most controversial points, which I would guess would be about the land, about NATO, and about
Ukraine's army, then it gets very, very hard to seriously argue that we made excellent progress.
But it's true that both sides, the U.S. delegation led by Marco Rubio and Ukrainian delegation, they had to send a stabilizing message out after the
crisis that erupted a week ago. And that's what they did.
AMANPOUR: OK. Well, listen, obviously, this is still to be worked out, and we will have you back and try to figure out what's going on. Dmytro Kuleba,
thank you very much indeed.
Next, to a 2,500-year-old play that is currently the hottest ticket on Broadway. You may remember Oedipus Rex from your college classics course,
but a new production written by Robert Icke and starring Mark Strong and Lesley Manville reimagines this Sophocles tragedy as a contemporary
political thriller.
Even if you know the secrets that haunt the passionate marriage of Oedipus and Jocasta, the play feels as shocking and fresh as the latest tabloid
scandal. And I sat down with "Oedipus" stars in New York for an intimate inside view of this new old classic.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Lesley Manville and Mark Strong, welcome to the program.
MARK STRONG, ACTOR, "OEDIPUS": Thank you.
LESLEY MANVILLE, ACTOR, "OEDIPUS": Thank you.
AMANPOUR: I say Oedipus, some people say Oedipus. What is it?
MANVILLE: Well, we say Oedipus in the U.K., but I think mostly here people say Oedipus.
AMANPOUR: This is -- I mean, it's a 2,500-year-old play by Sophocles made for the current moment. What is it that has brought it down to earth, so to
speak? It's the political angle, right, for this moment?
STRONG: Well, Rob makes the point, Rob Icke, who's the writer-director, makes the point that when this play was done originally 2,500 years ago, it
would have been contemporary. So, the idea of modernizing it and making it contemporary is not so outlandish. But what it suits is the political kind
of framework that he's put it in, because he makes Oedipus a guy who's about to win a landslide election, which kind of relates to the idea that
the original Oedipus probably had a little bit too much hubris.
AMANPOUR: And then there were, you know, references to him having to show his birth certificate, and people reacted to that because of the Obama-
Trump sort of thing. So, there are quite a lot of modern-day relevant instances there.
So, I want to read something from Vogue, which I thought was really quite good, and I want to ask you to comment on it. So, this is about the play.
They are or were the perfect couple. They'd been together for years. They have adult children. Why should a little quirk in the family tree only just
discovered mean everything has to change?
[13:25:00]
Does a man really have to separate from his loving, supportive, gorgeous, funny wife just because she happens to be his mother? I mean, it's put like
that.
STRONG: Well, part of the joy of the play and part of the experience that people have is that there is a very strong love story at its core, and it
works because you want them to be together, and they can't help themselves at the end.
AMANPOUR: Well, you know, one of the things I read that you had said is that you insisted that it has to be -- the audience has to be rooting for
this couple to stay together despite everything.
MANVILLE: Yes, because, of course, at the beginning of the play, they are -- their knowledge of their own relationship is that they are a 23-year-
long marriage. It's a great marriage. They're not just sugary and cute, there's a depth to their relationship. They're a sophisticated, intelligent
couple who are very supportive of each other. She's very politically astute in the same way that he is, and she's had a very interesting past. She's
had a troublesome past, which is shared with the audience throughout the play.
So, of course, you know -- it's only when you get to the end that you realize -- that they realize that they're a mother-son relationship, but,
of course -- and I think the audience are thrown into a chaos of their own because, on one hand, there's the moralist in you saying, well, that's got
to stop, but then other people say, well, but they've been doing it for 23 years. They've made a family.
There is an argument, but, of course, it's an argument that Oedipus can't live with because he is a truth-seeking missile, and that's been the
downfall.
AMANPOUR: And that is actually, I don't know whether that's in the original, it was because of your truth-seeking that you couldn't live with
it, but certainly that was a huge -- you know, the emblem for this play, and we live in a world, certainly for me, the idea of the truth is
sacrosanct, and even your, you know, merch says truth is a XX -- oh, excuse me, I X-ed the wrong word. Truth is a mother XX.
STRONG: XX. Yes, yes.
MANVILLE: I love that. That says a lot about you. You want to have a drink tonight?
AMANPOUR: That's my English coming out.
STRONG: But in the same way that you're asking the audience to think about how they feel about mother and son having that loving relationship, you're
also asking the audience how they feel about the fact that this man's need and search for the truth actually destroys everything that they have.
AMANPOUR: Which is another difficult thing because, I mean, I want to keep searching for the truth, but I don't want it to destroy us.
STRONG: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Can we just actually, now that we've talked about it, just go back. Me, OK, I know about Sophocles' Oedipus Rex. Me, I couldn't remember
all the details. It was like, OK, guy kills his father, marries his mother, but it's not like that. The story unfolds in a way, as you said, that
neither of you know who you actually are. And there is a ticking clock, an electronic clock, which is so -- it makes you so tense, actually.
STRONG: The great thing about this play, I think, is the fact that all the action has happened before the play begins. So, all the things that become
revelations have already taken place. He's already -- you know, his dad is already sick. In the original, it's a road rage incident. The two -- he
meets his father. Unbeknownst to him, it's his father in a cart, and they have an argument, and he kills the guy. So, in our version, it's a car
accident.
So, he's still culpable for the problem, but it's just -- you know, it's just been developed in a slightly different way, but it's still -- you
know, it's still in line with what the original intention was.
AMANPOUR: And your character, Jocasta, eventually, you all start putting it together halfway through the play, the bits of the puzzle, particularly
around the car crash. You know, you were married to Laius.
MANVILLE: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And he was the one who was killed in the car crash.
MANVILLE: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
MANVILLE: Yes. She decides to reveal this story, the real backstory of her life, her history with Laius. And then, slowly, the puzzle of Laius' death,
the truth of Laius' death, which makes him, puts him in a very difficult position. And of course, she's panicking because she knows that he is not
going to, in the clock ticking, in half an hour's time, make this speech as the new leader. It's a night of cataclysmic events.
AMANPOUR: All on the verge of winning an election?
[13:30:00]
MANVILLE: All with the clock ticking that in 24 minutes, 13 minutes, five minutes, he's going to be named the new leader. And he's saying,
eventually, I'm not going to make that speech until I know who I am. And that, for her, is -- you know. And then the final revelation happens. And
the clock's reached zero.
STRONG: It's all real-time. That's the interesting thing. So, the thing plays over two hours, between the polls closing and the results being
announced. But as I said, it's all happened offstage. All the things that become revealed have already happened. That's the genius.
AMANPOUR: And the genius, I think, of the production, certainly as an audience member, is that you actually do know what the story is.
STRONG: Yes.
AMANPOUR: You know, because it's a 2,500-year-old play by Sophocles.
MANVILLE: Well, surprisingly, though, not everybody does.
AMANPOUR: OK.
MANVILLE: I mean, I had somebody in the other night who had no idea how it ended.
STRONG: You hear the odd gasp.
MANVILLE: Yes.
STRONG: Yes.
MANVILLE: But I agree with you, it's more --
AMANPOUR: And yet, what I'm saying is, I'm still on the edge of my seat wondering what's going to happen. And actually, are they going to stay
together, are they not? When obviously I know that it's going to come to a very --
MANVILLE: And that really is the dramatic genius of Rob.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
MANVILLE: Because, of course, you know, you do -- you're looking at the clock, and you think, there's so much to find out, and there's two and a
half minutes left. So, where is this going to go? How is it? And then -- yes.
AMANPOUR: I almost don't want to get to where it's going to go, but we will.
STRONG: I was going to say, it's the way he's structured it, and the drip feed of information is handled so suavely that as an audience you literally
are just pulled forward into your seat, and you just want to find out what happens. And all the time, this drip feed of information is happening. This
clock is running down. So, there's half of your brain thinking, hang on, there's only a few minutes to go, like you say.
AMANPOUR: I was thinking that.
STRONG: And there's still -- I haven't -- there's more I need to know.
AMANPOUR: I was thinking that. And I was wondering, how are they going to get there?
STRONG: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Obviously, I mean, you guys have been doing it for how long?
STRONG: Yes. Yes, yes. Then we get there. Well, we've been doing it for months now, haven't we?
MANVILLE: Well, we did that --
AMANPOUR: And in England.
MANVILLE: -- over 100 performances in London. And --
AMANPOUR: And have you got it down to a tee in terms of the clock, or is there any sort of wiggle room at all or do you sometimes think, oh, my God,
you know, I'm a little bit slower?
MANVILLE: Listen, the clock has to adapt to us.
AMANPOUR: Does it?
MANVILLE: That's all we're going to reveal.
STRONG: Although the truth is that the play never varies beyond about a minute.
MANVILLE: No, it doesn't. No, it's pretty much the same most evenings.
AMANPOUR: That's pretty good.
STRONG: Yes.
MANVILLE: Sometimes. But we never look at the clock and think, oh, I better speak quickly, because you could not possibly do that when you're
dealing with such emotional dialogue.
AMANPOUR: So, many, many scenes, but the one that was just, I mean, unforgettable is that when you have both realized what's going on, and then
at some point you've been given the -- you know, the announcement that you've won, and you're getting out of your sort of day clothes, and you are
getting undressed and dressed up again, I suppose, to go and give the victory speech. That is an incredible scene. No words. And you just --
MANVILLE: Yes.
AMANPOUR: It's incredible. Is that hard to play that one?
STRONG: It's not really, because you know that what's marinating at that point is the sum total of everything that everybody's seen during the play.
They've seen them as a family. They've seen them in love. They've seen Oedipus be, you know, vicious to her brother-in-law, you know, nasty to the
--
AMANPOUR: You were jolly horrible to him.
STRONG: He's quite nasty in the beginning. There's quite a sort of macho aggression at the beginning, but that's again part of the hubris element,
that he's sort of almost too high. He's overreaching. And I love the journey that takes him, actually, to where he just ends up becoming like a
completely helpless.
But it's that moment when we have to get changed is -- it's brilliant because it allows everybody to just work out in their own minds what's
happened, where they're at, how they would behave, what they're feeling, how is he going to make that speech, what's going to happen to them now in
their lives. There's so much going on. And to just do it in silence for that long is great.
AMANPOUR: I guess many people, if they haven't read Sophocles, they will have heard of Sigmund Freud and the Oedipus complex. Is that -- I mean,
what do you think about that and its sort of what people might be thinking about that? Because I think you did say -- I mean, let me just --
MANVILLE: You're going to quote me?
AMANPOUR: Yes, I'm going to quote you, actually, because in the play, you said sarcastically, as Jocasta, every man has the effing his mother dream.
MANVILLE: Yes, well, that is --
AMANPOUR: And then everybody giggles.
MANVILLE: That is actually one of the only lines in our version that's taken from Sophocles.
STRONG: Almost word for word. Exactly.
MANVILLE: Almost word for word.
STRONG: Yes.
MANVILLE: That's the only --
AMANPOUR: How do they say it in Greek?
STRONG: I don't know.
MANVILLE: Don't ask us. We're not --
STRONG: Ask the Greek.
AMANPOUR: We don't have to bleep it.
STRONG: Yes. But the interesting thing about that time of psychiatry and everything, and the fact that, you know, Freud took on the idea of the
Oedipus complex and made it one of the tenets of his psychiatry is it's just a theory, isn't it? It's just an idea.
MANVILLE: Yes.
[13:35:00]
STRONG: Do we believe it? I mean, genuinely, is that a real thing or not? I'm not so sure. I wonder whether it wasn't a clever Viennese guy just
thinking, hey, I'm going to go down that path.
AMANPOUR: Could have been.
STRONG: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Could have been.
STRONG: Possibly.
MANVILLE: I mean, I'm sure lots of men have had that dream, but it's -- as you say, it's a theory, isn't it?
STRONG: Yes, exactly.
AMANPOUR: It's a theory.
MANVILLE: It's a theory.
AMANPOUR: Where does this stand for you? I mean, I'm sure you love all your babies, all your performances, your films, theatre. I'm sure every one
of them has incredible meaning because they're all incredible experiences. But how does this for both of you stack up against some of the incredible
film work, for instance, that you've done?
STRONG: Well, for me, funnily enough, I would say my two favorite experiences and the things that I've probably got the most out of were both
plays. And one was Arthur Miller's "A View from the Bridge" that I did about 10 years ago, also on Broadway, and this one. And the funny thing
about that Miller play is it's very Greek.
In the stage directions, it specifies Doric columns, and he's written it with a nod to the Greek tragedians. So, the fact that the two things that
I've done based on Greek tragedy, I don't know what that means. I mean, those guys obviously knew when they were writing what they were doing
because those are, I think, my two favorite experiences.
Film is great, you know, but there's nothing quite like a live audience and feeling the vibration and the moment when you hear an audience gasp or you
feel that silence and realize that their brains are turning over and they're finding things difficult or -- and there's nothing quite like it.
AMANPOUR: And for you?
MANVILLE: Yes, well, I mean, listen, if you're going to say you're going to do 104 performances in London, probably the same number here, you've got
to know that it's something you really want to do. And I never tire of doing "Oedipus." And it is, like with Mark, it's absolutely up there for me
with a small handful of other plays that I've done. And that doesn't negate my work with Mike Lee, my work with Paul Thomas Anderson at all.
AMANPOUR: Great directors.
MANVILLE: They're just -- it's different and different skills are required of you. And for me, nothing beats the responsibility that is yours and
yours alone and your comrades on stage of going out there and you are responsible for that arc of the evening. You can't be edited if you're no
good. It's you and it's down to good acting. And that's thrilling.
AMANPOUR: And finally, finally, I want to ask you because you all came out very somber. Obviously, it's a really difficult play, but have you decided
how you're going to face the curtain call?
MANVILLE: Well, Mark -- Mark, you're Mark. Rob directed the curtain call. He thinks things like that are important. And I agree in the same way that
he's in a way, although it isn't directing, but he has certainly directed the front of house staff on how to conduct themselves during our play.
They're not allowed to just wander around. People aren't allowed to be readmitted. So, it's about making the whole event.
And he felt that if we're all grinning at the curtain call, you know, as if we've just done 42nd Street, it lets the audience off the hook and makes
them think, oh, well, they're all right. They're all happy now. You know, he wants us to kind of stay in that bubble that we've created.
STRONG: It's difficult. It's difficult, too, because Broadway audiences, they want to be involved. You know, this idea that you get around and come
on, that's not British or West End at all.
AMANPOUR: They did when you came on.
STRONG: Yes, well, they did it when the curtain went out.
MANVILLE: And we've now -- we've tried to crush that because I've always come on with a kind of big, taking off the coat, a big sigh, you know, oh,
thank God the campaign's over now. We can relax. We've cut the sigh. So, there isn't a kind of look at me moment, but they still do. But the thing
that annoys me the most is taking our photograph at the curtain call.
AMANPOUR: I saw you get annoyed last night.
STRONG: Yes, be warned.
MANVILLE: Just, you know, be in that moment.
STRONG: Yes.
MANVILLE: If you want to clap, fantastic. If you want to stand up and clap, even better. But let's preserve something. Let's not make everything
about cameras and Instagram and social media. This is theatre. Let it cook and feel it. Just let your soul and your heart have the emotions of the
evening without going, got to record this. And some people even walk to the front to do it.
STRONG: I mean, that's --
MANVILLE: I got to let it go. I know.
STRONG: You have. You've got to -- you know, it's going to happen. But it's about maintaining the spell, I think. And that's why Lesley's so
furious with the camera thing.
MANVILLE: Yes.
STRONG: And why we don't, you know, give it large at the curtain call. It's a spell.
[13:40:00]
AMANPOUR: It is. And it's gripping, really. It's phenomenal. Lesley Manville, Mark Strong, thank you both very much indeed.
STRONG: Thank you.
MANVILLE: Thank you.
STRONG: Thanks, thanks.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Two amazing actors in a great play. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Now, to a country music legend. The American singer-songwriter Kenny Chesney has sold 30 million albums worldwide and racked up dozens of
number one singles. And just last month, he was inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame.
Now, his memoir, "Heart Life Music," takes us back to where it all started, growing up in a small town in Tennessee, dreaming of stardom. He joins
Walter Isaacson from Nashville to discuss how country music changed his life.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER ISAACSON, CO-HOST, AMANPOUR AND CO.: Thank you, Christiane. And, Kenny Chesney, welcome to the show.
KENNY CHESNEY, AUTHOR, "HEART LIFE MUSIC" AND SINGER/SONGWRITER: Thanks for having me, man. I really appreciate it.
ISAACSON: At the beginning of this wonderful memoir, you talk about lying on your back in the grass and looking at the stars. Tell me what you
learned from that.
CHESNEY: Well, as a child, I lived with my grandmother. My mom and I lived with my grandparents while my stepfather was in Vietnam. And, you know,
when you live that far outside of Knoxville, you know, there's no light pollution at all. So, on a clear night in the summer, you can see forever.
And I don't know why I did it. I would just go out. It would just make me feel good. I would go out and lie out in her backyard and stare up at the
sky. And now, as an adult looking back, that's where this curiosity for life started.
ISAACSON: And you also talk about the fact that you know that every other kid in every dot in the map is probably doing the same thing.
CHESNEY: I would like to think so. I can't be the only one, right? So, I - - but I only knew -- you know, I had three roads that I went down as a kid. I knew the road to church. I knew the road to school and I knew the road to
the ballpark. And that was about it. But I was always really curious as to what was past my county line and what else was out there in the cosmos, you
know.
And so, it wasn't necessarily dreaming of music, it was just dreaming to dream. And it wasn't that I wanted to leave, it was just that I wondered
what was out there.
ISAACSON: And when you're age three, they give you a plastic guitar and a little microphone. Did they know at age three?
CHESNEY: I don't know. You know what's crazy is I look at that picture that's in the book, and if you look at pictures of me now at 57, I stand
the exact same way as I did as a three-year-old with that guitar. It's crazy.
ISAACSON: And you said that you automatically got your left hand on the fret.
CHESNEY: I automatically knew. Yes, it was unbelievable. But you know what, I felt like that over the years, early on, I had no idea music was
going to be my life. But it was always kind of -- whatever higher power you believe in, it was always -- it was as if God or whatever was touching me
on the shoulder with music.
Now, I wanted -- sports consumed my life. But there was always music in it here and there, never knowing that one day that I realized that I could be
creative and creativity just consumed my life when I figured that out.
ISAACSON: You know, I come from New Orleans. We talk about the spirituals and the marching bands and all flowing together to create jazz. What rivers
were flowing together to create your music?
[13:45:00]
CHESNEY: There was bluegrass early on. And then there was -- in my mom's kitchen and on the way to school, I heard a lot of country music. But once
I got into high school, I realized there was a group called Van Halen. And then I realized there was a group called Leonard Skidder. I realized there
was ACDC. And then when I got into college is when I realized the genius of Bruce Springsteen, of Jimmy Buffett, and Bob Marley and the Wailers.
Now, if it's possible to put all those acts into a stew, that would be my music, because I'm a true believer that the music that you digest as a
child and as a young adult, when you become an adult and start making your own records, it's only natural for the music that you make as an adult. And
what comes out of you as an adult is the direct reflection of the music that you digested early on in life.
ISAACSON: Well, let's unpack all that music you digest and how it fit in. You mentioned Jimmy Buffett. And there's a Gulf Island inflection to your
music. I think you did something waiting for a hurricane or something with him.
CHESNEY: Well, when I first started in this business, first of all, Jimmy was the first one that taught me that it was possible on any level to paint
pictures with words. And I didn't know that was possible, right. I was a kid from East Tennessee, but Jimmy created space just like Bruce did and
other people. In a way, Jimmy created space for my dream. Like Jimmy showed me -- Jimmy had a really big dream, and it showed me that, wow, I could
have a big dream, too.
And that's when I was starting to get really creative and never knowing that I was going to have a place in the U.S. Virgin Islands and spend a lot
of time down there. But when I did do that, I met a lot of people from a lot of different places, different religious beliefs, different political
beliefs. They just didn't grow up like I did. A lot of them were from New England and from all over the world.
And the longer I was down there, the more that I realized that I just don't have to make music for people that are in the genre of country. I can make
music for everyone. And that's how much of a profound impact it had on me as an artist, as a creative person. And it really changed my life in a lot
of ways.
ISAACSON: I find that fascinating because different types of music are either very diverse and they bring things together and inclusive. I always
thought, and forgive me for saying it, that country music didn't have quite as much diversity. But you're saying you were able to bring all that in.
CHESNEY: Well, not all of it does. I mean, that's true. But for me, when I was first getting into the business, I was just trying to get my songs on
the radio and I was trying to do what worked, right? And I was just trying to get into the business at all. But I did that. And -- but at the core of
it, I knew that I wasn't making music that was truly authentic to me.
And I truly believe that all of us, when we hear music, we like it to be authentic. And when it comes to music, we're all pretty much suckers for
the truth. So, I -- when I was able to do that, around 2002, I've been on the road since 1993, and I was doing exactly the same thing that everyone
else was doing up until around 2001, and that's when my life changed. That's when I started being very authentic and realizing that, oh, wow, I
didn't have to make music just for these people, I can make it for everybody. And that's when my music truly changed.
ISAACSON: Well, what happens in 2002 is you come up with this great album, you know, "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Problem." And it also has a Springsteen.
You cover a Springsteen song on it. Is that where the change happens?
CHESNEY: Yes, it was that album, the "No Shoes, No Shirt, No Problem's" album. And when I was in college, I heard Bruce's "Tunnel of Love" album
and I always felt like that it spoke to me in a lot of different ways. And so, I love the song "One Step Up and Two Steps Back." I absolutely -- I
still love it. It's one of my favorite songs.
So, when I got to that place in my life that I was recording the "No Shoes" album, I felt like that it was possible that I had lived enough, maybe, to
make that song authentic to me. And so, I went in and recorded it. And I was proud of it. But my friend who -- and my -- the person that I co-wrote
this book with, Holly Gleason, she's been in my life a long time. And she urged me to send Bruce a copy of the song.
[13:50:00]
And so, I did, and never expecting anything. And about two weeks later, I got an unbelievable letter from Bruce thanking me for the care of his song.
And that started a friendship with Bruce over the years. And that was just such an amazing thing because the fact that he even heard it at all was
really thrilling.
ISAACSON: We're speaking now right before Thanksgiving. And I think one of the greatest memories in your book is the Thanksgiving Day. Suddenly, your
family is saying, your mom is saying, and others are saying, let's go to a concert. When I read about the concert, I went, whoa, that was a concert.
Tell me about it.
CHESNEY: That was, yes. So, we always have Thanksgiving during the day, you know. And at night, there's really nothing to do, which I've always
thought was a genius thing for a concert promoter to have a concert on Thanksgiving night. Because everybody's looking for something to do. But
that specific night, we went to see George Jones, Merle Haggard, and Conway Twitty all in the same show, all in our town of, you know, Knoxville,
Tennessee. And we went. And I was a kid. You know, and I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was playing basketball and baseball and football. I thought
I wanted to be an athlete.
And then I went and saw those guys. And I got to tell you, man, something changed inside of me. I went, oh, my God, that's what I want to do. I don't
know how I could ever do that. But I saw the connection between the artist and the audience and how the audience reacted to the artist and just the
synergy between the two, it was -- I don't know. There was something. It -- that's another way, it was God tapping me on the shoulder and going, one
day, maybe, you know?
So -- but I had no idea how. But I remember that night, I was going home and going, well, one day, hopefully.
ISAACSON: I think lightning is what you call it.
CHESNEY: Yes. I -- to see that show. And look, one of the things that I'm very thankful for close to Thanksgiving is that as a young person, you have
all these people that you look up to and that you try to emulate and learn from. And then one day you become actual friends with them on some level,
you know, and create with them and share the stage with them. And there's a lot of those moments in this book, you know, that just, like I said, when I
got into high school, I loved Van Halen. I loved George Strait. I loved Joe Walsh. I loved Steve Miller. I loved even the Wailers. Like, later on, I
got to know a lot of those guys. And not Bob, obviously, because he died in the '80s.
But my career and my musical life has been filled with people that I loved early on that I got to meet. And not everybody can say that. I mean, it was
just there's so many people that championed me in a small way that I never thought would even know me on any level. And I'm very thankful for that.
ISAACSON: You write something about songwriting, which I'm going to quote you if you don't mind, which is, "The job is to take a slice of life write
all about it, slice it down to what matters, and cut that feeling wide open."
CHESNEY: Yes.
ISAACSON: Is there a song of yours that you think exemplifies that?
CHESNEY: Well, that's a hard thing to do. I talk about it, you know. It's -- there was -- there's several songs that I wrote. There's a song called
"I Go Back" that I wrote on a bus rolling through Colorado one night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHESNEY: And that's one of my favorite songs I ever wrote. I wrote it by myself. The one that I truly am proud of, though, and a lot of people think
just because of the nature of the title, it's called "Beer in Mexico." But they think it's a drinking song, but it's not.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHESNEY: Some critics would dismiss it because they thought it was just a drinking song. But that was a true snapshot of my soul at the time. Sammy
Hagar, I met Sammy on a night off in Columbus, Ohio. Van Halen was playing the same arena that we were playing the next night. And I met Sammy. He was
great to U.S., and he invited me to come play his birthday party later on that year. And so, we did.
But there was something that was stirring inside my soul. Now, this is an example of how you write songs as you live them. You know, I was --
something was -- I was 36 years old. All of my friends had their life figured out. They had family, kids. I wasn't there yet. And I was like,
going, OK, well, is there something wrong with me?
And then I went back to the house where Sammy got us a place to stay. I pulled my guitar out and a notepad, and I just started writing down all the
things I was feeling. And by the time the band got back, I had written an almost finished "Beer in Mexico." And it was a true snapshot of my soul at
the time.
[13:55:00]
And that's one of the few songs that I've written where that was that authentically true. A lot of stuff is that we hear on the radio, and I've
done it, is made up, and it feels good, sounds good. And I like that. But "Beer in Mexico" was one of those, an example of what you were talking
about, of just shredding it all down and giving people a snapshot of your soul.
ISAACSON: Tell me about being inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame.
CHESNEY: Being inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame, it still blows my mind. I mean, I -- for a long time, it took me a minute to accept
it, honestly. I have been so busy for so long, and I've never took the time to sit an accomplishment that much. I don't -- I just don't do it.
And for them -- to get that call, and not only did I get the call, they came to my house to tell me. It was almost like winning the lottery, I
guess. You know, they came to my front door and told me. And it took me forever to accept it, even to the day of the induction. And all of a
sudden, though, there's something about walking into that rotunda, where all these plaques are on the wall of some of your friends and a lot of your
heroes, people that inspired you. And when you walk into that room and they say your name as a Hall of Famer, it hits you. I mean, I promise you, it
hit me.
And then you take a group shot with all the Lydic members, and all of a sudden, you're in that group. And I promise you, it hit me then. And I
promise you that picture is going to be really big in my house. I still can't believe it, though. I can't.
But one of the things that was really great, you know, I was -- I'm 57, and I was able to sit right beside -- I had my mother and my father sitting
right beside me. And that was a gift. That's a real gift, you know. And I was -- that's one of the few pictures that we actually have together, and
it's a great one.
ISAACSON: Kenny Chesney, hey, thank you so much for joining us.
CHESNEY: Man, thanks for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you
can always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
So, thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
